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Senator Byron Dorgan did a great job standing up for American workers

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:29 PM
Original message
Senator Byron Dorgan did a great job standing up for American workers
on Ed Schultz just now. Anyone else tune in?
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Saw him on CSPAN
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 04:31 PM by silverweb
He was terrific! My daughter asks, "How come HE isn't running for president?"
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm sorry I missed it.
He stated the obvious IMHO. I can't believe so many are out of touch?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. How about a recap
Come on mzmolly, how many times have people asked for just a snippet when posting a new thread.

Fill us in!!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It was quick. He said basically what many of us have been saying.
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 05:02 PM by mzmolly
That the guest worker program is an employers/corporatist dream and is akin to "in sourcing." He talked about it weakening unions/the middle class.

I didn't expect it to be over so quickly and was hoping for an ongoing conversation.

I'm hoping to catch the replay on CSPAN later. I'm disgusted that the media is painting this as a liberals are pro-quest worker program and conservatives are against it. The only voices on this issue in the media are "liberals - pro, conservatives - against." Funny, one might not know by watching the news that BUSH proposed the idea.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm hating it too
This is Democratic documentation so workers can't be exploited against Republican revolving door cheap labor. I'm glad some Democrat understands we've got to make the case correctly.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. If we create an expanded avenue for guest workers we create an environment
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 05:35 PM by mzmolly
where slave labor is legalized and rubber stamped by elected officials who are voted in to serve American interests - American workers lose. Why else do you think Bush would push this agenda?

Documentation won't prevent exploitation. It gives the power for employers to exploit further because they'll no longer be breaking the law. Guest worker programs give employers power, as one has to have sponsorship in order to qualify. Piss off your employer and you've got 60 days to find another job/sponsor, or - your "outta here."
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Documentation plus new business regulations will
If we toughen the laws on business and put them under the agency that traditionally enforces those laws, the Dept of Labor, then any worker has recourse against exploitation. That's what McCain-Kennedy does. But it's up to us to constantly make sure those laws are enforced and not turn the other way because we prefer a cheap gardener or construction worker ourselves.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. IF, good point. I don't know of any new business regs under the pending
"guest worker" programs however?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. You're attempted insult is indeed rude - yet it's unsurprising.
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 08:21 PM by mzmolly
1. I don't consider myself smarter than anyone else who participates here.

2. Show me what EXACTLY you're talking about in regard to the rules protecting "American" workers.

If we toughen the laws on business and put them under the agency that traditionally enforces those laws, the Dept of Labor, then any worker has recourse against exploitation. That's what McCain-Kennedy does. But it's up to us to constantly make sure those laws are enforced and not turn the other way because we prefer a cheap gardener or construction worker ourselves.

We are not toughening the laws, we are making it LEGAL to hire people from across the border who will obviously work for less. Enforcing existing laws is the "toughest" thing to do, and that is not being done currently.

Proposal by McCain/Kennedy bill: The Department of Labor will have new authority to conduct random audits of employers and ensure compliance with labor laws; also includes new worker protections and enhanced fines for illegal employment practices

Current law:

Penalties Producers employing aliens not lawfully admitted to the U.S. are subject to substantial monetary fines and possible imprisonment. For a first offense, an employer is subject to a civil penalty not less than $250 and not more than $2,000 for each unauthorized alien. A second offense carries a civil penalty of not less than $2,000 and not more than $5,000 for each unauthorized alien.

After the second offense, the employer is subject to a civil penalty of not less than $3,000 and not more than $10,000 for each illegally employed worker. Multiple offenses also subject an employer to criminal penalties. An employer who engages in a pattern or practice of violating the law is subject to a criminal fine of not more than $3,000 for each unauthorized alien with respect to whom a violation occurs and/or imprisonment for not more than six months.

The IRCA provides employers with a good faith defense. An employer who proves that she/he made a good faith effort to comply with the IRCA establishes an affirmative defense that they did not violate the act.


Did you say "toughen" the laws?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I've looked at the bill. I've read it several times. Yes DO show me.
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 09:21 PM by mzmolly
I'll even provide you with the link.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s109-1033

Here, have another: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.1033:

Again, tell me where AMERICAN workers are given consideration under this legislation.

Increasing fines for "prohibitive" behavior while decreasing the criteria for said behavior is not protecting American workers.

"Guest worker programs encourage employers to turn good jobs into temporary jobs at reduced wages and diminished working conditions and contribute to the growing class of workers laboring in poverty," ~ John Sweeney AFL-CIO.

I'd like to see the concerns of Mr. Sweeney addressed, personally.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. McCain-Kennedy does
"We continue to be concerned (about a guest worker program)," AFL-CIO President John Sweeney said in a statement. But the McCain-Kennedy measure "will bring our nation one step closer to justice for America's immigrants," he added.

There isn't any way to write labor protections for Americans into an immigration bill, it doesn't even make any sense. The only way to stop the downward spiral is to stop the benefit of hiring illegals. McCain-Kennedy does that. The whole thing, but most specifically the parts bolded.


SUBTITLE B--BORDER INFRASTRUCTURE, TECHNOLOGY INTEGRATION, AND
SECURITY ENHANCEMENT

Sec. 121. Border security coordination plan.
Sec. 122. Border security advisory committee.
Sec. 123. Programs on the use of technologies for border security.
Sec. 124. Combating human smuggling.
Sec. 125. Savings clause.

SUBTITLE C--INTERNATIONAL BORDER ENFORCEMENT

Sec. 131. North American Security Initiative.
Sec. 132. Information sharing agreements.
Sec. 133. Improving the security of Mexico's southern border.

TITLE II--STATE CRIMINAL ALIEN ASSISTANCE

Sec. 201. State criminal alien assistance program authorization of appropria-
tions.
Sec. 202. Reimbursement of States for indirect costs relating to the incarcer-
ation of illegal aliens.
Sec. 203. Reimbursement of States for pre-conviction costs relating to the in-
carceration of illegal aliens.


TITLE IV--ENFORCEMENT
Sec. 401. Document and visa requirements.
Sec. 402. Employment Eligibility Confirmation System.
Sec. 403. Improved entry and exit data system.
Sec. 404. Department of labor investigative authorities.
Sec. 405. Protection of employment rights.
Sec. 406. Increased fines for prohibited behavior.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'm talking about taking Americans into consideration by making certain
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 10:01 PM by mzmolly
that the concerns of labor are addressed. ie. that this does not create an incentive for cheap/temporary labor. There ARE ways to legislate that. And, there are ways to enforce existing laws. Increasing penalties for laws that are not currently enforced is not much of a deterrent.

Here are specific concerns and potential solutions as outlined by Friends of Farmworkers - for example:

http://friendsfw.org/Advocates/Immig/Worker_Concerns_McCain-Kennedy.pdf
http://friendsfw.org/Advocates/Immig/Analysis_Labor_Provisions_McCain-Kennedy.pdf

I agree with Sweeney and Friends of Farm Workers that the bill has some positives. However, as I've said - I think the many legitimate concerns by labor have got to be addressed. This bill will not hurt highly educated Americans, but it can and will impact upon those who are not as privileged.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. That favors immigrants
And alot of what they say is wrong. Their demands would only guarantee immigrants coming in at will, with no need to stay with the employer they were authorized to work for in the first place. With their demands, we may as well scrap immigration requirements altogether and just open the borders.

McCain-Kennedy does create new immigrant worker's rights. It has strike, independent contractor, taxation, whistleblower and other protections. It has an employment eligibility system. And authorizing the Dept of Labor to investigate illegal employers is completely new.

The site you linked to is looking for a bill completely favoring immigrants, thus the name of the site, Friends of Farmworkers. Bush's revolving door program completely favors business. McCain-Kennedy is a compromise. The way things are going, we're going to end up with a bunch of punitive nonsense from Frist and the real reform going by the wayside anyway.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It's NOT just about immigrants.
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 10:45 PM by mzmolly
*Snip*

However, three fundamental aspects of the bill are of serious concern.

1.No one prospers in a free market that is so flooded with low cost competition for the goods or services they offer that prices plummet to the level of the lowest cost competitor in the world. ... However, rather than merely accommodating the current state of affairs, the bill actually contains incentives for employers to churn their labor forces in ways that will likely stimulate far wider immigration, both legal and illegal. This flood of new workers is likely to swamp the free-market advantages workers gain through legalization and portability.

2.While the ideal is for new workers to have the freedom to make choices about their work, this freedom is illusory. The structure of the future flow immigration program under McCain/Kennedy ends up, in some ways, with the worst of both worlds. Because of what they must do to become and remain legally authorized, workers will find themselves without the practical ability to exercise choices in the free market, but also without the protections of more traditional temporary worker programs.

3.Finally, the labor protections that are included in the bill cannot actually be enforced under proposed mechanisms.

These factors are likely to conspire to cause churning of workers in non-professional occupations, with very little job security and too many workers chasing too few jobs. Traditionally, temporary labor programs have attempted to protect the wages and working conditions in the U.S. economy not only by limiting the numbers of new workers, but by mandating minimum conditions of employment that meet or exceed those conditions prevailing in the industry and area of employment.

Both serve to help protect the wages of all workers from being adversely affected by use of temporary workers from other countries.) There is only the requirement that the H-5A worker be paid the same as others similarly situated. There is nothing, aside from the economic counter pressure of workers’ demands, to keep wages from drifting steadily downward to the minimum wage. The lack of a prevailing wage standard will encourage recruitment of new workers at the lowest level and will drive down wages. Protections against wage discrimination between workers will only encourage employers to discharge or fail to rehire current staff in order to reduce wages for everyone.

The undersigned authors of this analysis bring the unique prospective of a collective 136years of legal experience representing immigrant workers, mostly in migrant legal services projects. A significant aspect of this work has involved litigation and advocacy with respect to the H-2A and H-2B temporary worker programs. Experience with these programs, and with the implementation of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1984, offers significant insight into how the H-5A and H-5B programs proposed in the McCain/ Kennedy bill might actually work in the real world.

** This analysis of the labor provisions of that bill was prepared to share those perspectives with labor, immigrant advocacy organizations and other allies in the comprehensive immigration reform movement.**


You originally stated this:

This is Democratic documentation so workers can't be exploited against Republican revolving door cheap labor.

But - you've failed to indicate how this bill prevents workers from being exploited against cheap, revolving door labor? If these people are at the mercy of their employers it does NOTHING of the sort. If there are no wage provisions, it does nothing of the sort.

Further, your claim that this is a position supported by "Friends of Farm Workers" ie "immigrant advocacy groups" alone - does not take into consideration the following organizations who participated in the analysis:

The Southern Poverty Law Center

Equal Justice Center

Northwest Workers Justice

Virginia Justice Center

California Rural Legal Assistance


Now - show me how this law prevents cheap revolving door labor.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I've indicated how
And I haven't missed that you've done nothing but copy/paste. And you can list 50 groups if you want, it doesn't change the fact that your link was completely titled towards immigrants. If workers can come and change jobs at will, then there's no control on the numbers of immigrants at all. Business will eat that right up, and argue that documenting the reason they refused to hire every single applicant is cumbersome and they'd be right. US workers don't have prevailing wage protection either, so I don't know why they think they'll get it for immigrants. It's unrealistic, unworkable and does nothing to protect US workers. It doesn't matter how many copy/pastes you do, it won't change anything.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No you haven't.
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 11:03 PM by mzmolly
The reason I copied/pasted is because you like to spin what was in the links I provided.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. No, you copied and pasted
Because you can't make a coherent argument on your own. I took the specific items in the bill and explained how they work together to prevent revolving door cheap labor. You can disagree if you like, but you can't say I didn't do it because I took the information straight out of the bill and explained it.

I also took your copy/paste and explained how it actually does allow a flood gate of immigration because workers will have guest cards that aren't tied to a specific employer who has gone through the process of proving need. All they will have to do is get here, and then go off and work under the table for someone else if employers aren't required to account for the workers they've brought into the country. It is great for immigrants, terrible to address what you claim to care about, protecting US jobs.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I copied and pasted because you continually mis-characterize.
Edited on Fri Mar-31-06 12:09 AM by mzmolly
Your making arguments against your own assertions. :crazy:

For example you stated: If workers can come and change jobs at will, then there's no control on the numbers of immigrants at all. And later it actually does allow a flood gate of immigration because workers will have guest cards that aren't tied to a specific employer.

Perhaps If I know what exactly your trying to communicate and you quit arguing with yourself, we can have a "coherent" discussion?

I'll check back in the am.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. You never said anything to mischaracterize
You just copied and pasted what other people said.

And both of my sentences that you posted mean the exact same thing.

One thing's for sure, I am having a discussion with myself because you haven't contributed anything of your own yet.

I won't be checking back in the am. :hi:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I won't miss watching you argue with yourself while being caustic and
abusive. :hi:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. my understanding is the unions are supporting guest worker programs
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Some are, some are not. The AFLCIO has come out against.
See my journal for the article. :hi:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. It depends on the program
The Bush program is a revolving door that sends workers back home and lets in a whole new batch. McCain-Kennedy has earned legalization attached and right to organize, so we aren't constantly creating an underclass of workers. It also has much stiffer business regulations for hiring illegals. With both elements in place, it has the potential to finally force everybody into a legal labor process which will only help all workers in the end. It is important to become informed on what is actually being introduced.
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Marymarg Donating Member (773 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. I love Byron Dorgan
He should run for President.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Senator Byron Dorgan standing up for American workers.
He has been standing up for many years. He has held many meetings on the topics of Out Sourcing and In Sourcing.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. He said what needed to be said today. I only wish he'd had more time
on the Ed Schultz show to articulate the views of ordinary American workers.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. Is he bucking the McCain-Kennedy plan?
If so, good for him. We may very well need a mechanism to deal with the illegal immigrants currently in this country while we sort out a permanent solution, but I am appalled that the dems are signing on to a prospective temporary worker program (400,000 workers per year to be increased "as necessary"). It's only supposed to apply when US citizens are "unavailable" for the jobs, but they said the same thing about H-1B visas and we know how that's gone. The wages and benefits in these industries will never return to prior levels unless US citizens are attracted to these jobs. If we need additional LEGAL immigration--so be it.

It's hard to believe that such a program was shut down in 1964 b/c of the outcries of Cesar Chavez and Edward R. Murrow and today this legislation is being sponsored by one of our "best".



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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. It's a legalization program
It is NOT the same as Bush's temporary program that boots people back home when we've used them up. It also has more labor protections, increased border security and increased penalties to business for hiring illegals. It is not the kind of guest worker program opposed by Chavez, two totally different things. It's a damned shame so many people care so little about facts that they haven't even bothered to read the bill themselves.
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