TYT: Unschooling Vs. Homeschooling Vs. Formal Education

Run time: 09:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYZrho7Th68   Posted on YouTube: April 21, 2010 By YouTube Member: TheYoungTurks Views on YouTube: 27930   Posted on DU: April 23, 2010 By DU Member: ihavenobias Views on DU: 2850

 
Summary: Cenk and Ana play and then break down a GMA segment on the increasing trend of "unschooling". You can http://www.examiner.com/x-5445-Politics-in-Education-Examiner~y2010m4d20-How-harmful-is-the-unschooling-trend|read more here>.

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That's going to produce some ... interesting results.

It does produce very interesting results. My son was unschooled from the age of 8. By 16 he was taking college classes and spoke 4 languages. He's attending one of the most rigorous colleges in the US and now speaks 6 languages. He's an accomplished athlete, very polite, kind and generous. He's also done very well in sciences and math. We had to home school (which is just a name, not a description) because the schools were too dumbed down and he was becoming a really angry kid because he'd believed me when I told him that he'd get to learn all he wanted in school. He loves learning just as all humans do from the moment they're born....until we send them to school and squash that out of them. Our schools are broken and meeting the needs of only a few. If kids were allowed to learn the things they're interested in at the time they're actually interested in those subjects we'd be producing some great thinkers. All studies show that's the best way to retain the knowledge you gain.

Kids learn so much better and want to learn so much more when they're not locked up together all day, every day with only kids of their own age who may have nothing in common beyond that. We all learn at different rates and should be allowed to learn as much as we can and not be limited by the pablum currently offered in most schools (in this area).

Home schooling and unschooling are just labels for alternatives and not descriptive of the what actually occurs.

That said, if you home school to isolate your children from the real world or because you don't want them to learn about evolution or other people's beliefs.....well that's just ridiculous.

I haven't watch the video yet, but I'm sure it's no more informative than the news on fox. Prejudice dies hard. Going to watch it now.

do not parent their children...the kids do as they please...all four of them. These kids are barred from walking into many stores, community activities, even church. Why? Because they are so unruly, they physically harm people and things around them. I wouldn't want to spend even a minute in their company. The school system is extremely happy that they are "home schooled." If your child is a success, it is not because of your choices in his education. You were extremely lucky.

Retired teacher.

I was smart about my approach to unschooling and dedicated to providing him with the education that my district refused to. School was toxic for him and that's why we had to home school. The people in the video, as I've said before are not represent of home schoolers of any type. Every home schooler is different just as every other person is different. You can no more generalize about home schoolers than any other "class".

The difference is made clear in this video. Have you watched it yet?

approach of anyone I know. Unschooling is about more options, more learning, more thinking, not less. Unschooling isn't about feral children, it's about letting your children learn at their rate and level of learning instead of insisting that everyone must learn the same thing at the same time, for the same amount of time, regardless of their differences. It's about being able to explore more deeply the subjects that really interest you and getting, usually, a much broader education. You don't have to march in lockstep with all the other children of the same age.

That family in the video is not a good example of anything......

And in your case, very unusual results that are not typical.

Anecdotal evidence is just that.

Colleges accept home schoolers at a higher rate than public or privately schooled children. That's a fact.

The fact that he speaks 6 languages indicates to me that he's a tad bit above average. I'd say maybe 10% of kids (probably a generous estimate) will really apply themselves to learning when left to their own devices. The rest- even those with above average IQs- will turn out like the kids in the video.

I'm not trying to defend our educational system (it's gotten way worse since I was in it- all it does now is teach kids to pass standardized tests) but most kids do need some prodding to make them crack a book.

that's why public school would not work for him. Our schools are broken and really don't teach so many of the children anything they haven't already picked up. Most children are sponges and absolutely love learning until we put them into the school environment which is not set up to really educate children, so much as to employ teachers and administration and to give adults a place to put their children while they work. Our kids learn an amazing amount before they go to school and that continues if you provide the right environment. Public schools could provide a much better place to learn, but they just aren't focused on the children.

Obviously not every child will come out of unschooling knowing six or even two languages, but there is no reason to leave children in a toxic environment that dumbs them down and turns them into compliant Walmart employees. I understand completely that many could not or think they could not afford to home school. Many don't want to spend that much time with their children. :-) I don't blame them... by the time I removed my child from school I know longer recognized him. He was so angry at being told constantly that it wasn't time to learn things... we're not teaching that this year, etc. We would spend hours arguing over the ridiculous homework that could be done in 5 minutes, but was so repetitious and completely without meaning that he just couldn't make himself dumb it down again. It took quite a while to get back the interested and interesting child I'd handed over to the school 4 years earlier.

As I said, there are as many ways to home school as there are home schoolers, we just try to adapt to what works best for our children and enables them to learn like they did before they went to school. Some people think that means just letting them do as they please, but most parents provided guidance and tried to reinforce the good parts of each child and help them learn to moderate the less desirable since they were born. We just continued that approach. We provided the time and resources for him to flourish. The approach you take isn't the same for every child so you have to adapt their education the same as you adapt your parenting to the personalities and needs of each child.

Speaking of cracking a book.....Could textbooks be any more boring, biased and full of disinformation? We used very little of those.

The family in the video doesn't appear to be providing guidance of any sort.... it's sad.

The GMA segment was too short and superficial to do this story any justice, but I didn't hear anyone comparing the products of forced schooling (the proper term) to these kids. While at a highly-prestigious private college, I knew dean's list students who had less to say than this pair, so let's not confuse learning and development with social stratification and the class system...which seems to be what Cenk and Ana ("to their defense"? With a master's degree in political science? LOL!) are so bothered about: What if these kids don't learn to kiss corporate ass and be happy wage slaves?

As for un/home schooling, several posters here need to learn the history of forced education. In short, it's about standardization for human beings, no less than Taylorism was for factory production. (John Taylor Gatto has some great essays on this.) Whatever the relative strengths of each approach, no sensible person would dispute that the most interesting and valuable parts of their lives (learning, career, whatever) were spent in free inquiry, away from systems of coercion. (the TYT project, anyone? Hello?!?) That's what it means to be fully human - to not have someone cracking a whip over your head. Cenk and Ana are a little too eager to not address this. Then again, maybe they never learned...

Lastly, how did GMA get Michelle Rhee for this segment?

Here's an interesting look at the history of education:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

He's also written some interesting and compelling books.

This is the jean-jacques rousseau infuence, right?

If parents are going to be allowed to teach their children at home there needs to be periodic testing, curricular review, and at least once a semester there should be an official observer. The reason I believe this is because some parents lack the discipline, the will, or the desire to actually spend the time with their kids that is necessary or ensure that they are learning. I personally know people who homeschool their kids and it is a terrible disservice to their children because they aren't putting any effort into it. In contrast to that I personally know people who homeschool their kids and provide a great learning environment and their kids are actually ahead of most other children.

This concept of "unschooling" is disastrous. Yes I understand the argument behind freedom for the children, ability to make choices and suffer the consequences, etc. That is fine when it comes to decisions with short-term consequences. It is another thing when the consequences will affect the rest of their lives. Children do not have the capacity for making long-term decisions. They don't have any concept of long-term consequence. There were three things I never thought about when I was growing up... how my actions at the time would affect my career in the future, how much I wanted to go to school every day, and the fact that I am going to die. These things didn't register with me because I WAS A KID! I did flips off of big jumps on bicycles and blew stuff up. Kids need direction and a parent that is willing to give it to them. If a parent isn't telling a child how important their education is or, worse yet, is not making any rules to make them do it how are they ever going to know? Hell... I am an adult and I would still choose Wii all day over work if it weren't for the fact that I have a family to take care of.

This is disastrous for these children. They are going to be at such a disadvantage when they go out on their own. This is a disservice to these children and these parents should not be allowed to be responsible for the education of their children. Proper laws pertaining to homeschooling would catch these cases and deal with them appropriately.

This isn't homeschooling.

There are websites dedicated to this concept.
http://www.unschooling.com/

I don't understand this lifestyle.

It is allowed under the homeschooling laws of the states where it is practiced though. These parents present to the state that they are homeschooling their children while they are actually letting their children do whatever the hell they want and they aren't teaching their kids anything. So the way to solve the issue is through the homeschooling laws.

Make schools less like a prison and people won't want to escape. There's far too much testing..teachers know it, parents know it..and yet it goes on.
Many kids feel like caged chickens for 12 years. Most kids become less responsible, not more responsible, after 12 years of being told what to do and what to pay attention for 7 hours a day (plus homework, which infringes even more on their time to think original thoughts). Real education does not resemble force-feeding.
Kids should perhaps get 4 hours a day of "schooling" -- structured classroom time -- and the rest of their day should provide them opportunities to learn. Resting in a quiet room or writing in a diary or otherwise being "un-scrutinized" should be their birthright as free beings. Perhaps limit their group social interaction time in the afternoons to an hour, to make sure it doesn't become all about fitting in with their peers, but let them go read quietly or choose to learn woodworking or garden or do yoga according to their own interests and mood of the day. That's MY ideal..unfortunately, the American ideal of stuffing every child's head full of facts to the exclusion of any quiet time or independent time is so ingrained in our culture that in most cities, it's impossible to find even a private school that offers that.

How's that working out for us, anyway -- our fellow Americans are so interested in facts and learning that it boggles the mind, doesn't it? Just look at Faux.

A society of children, looking for others to tell them what to do and what to think.

"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."- Plutarch

But before 30-40 years of being told what to do and paying attention for 10 hours a day....

And parents that REFUSE to adequately prepare their children to live a productive adult life in this society probably
shouldn't be allowed to keep their children.

I'm serious! This is a drain on the kids, the rest of the educational system in terms of remediation later on, and society as a whole with children growing up to think they can always do whatever they want, children who turn into adult sociopaths.

schools or expensive gender exclusive prep schools that are modern versions of finishing schools.

Radical unschooling is what they're calling it and they look like idiots. Unschooling isn't at all as they're describing it. Yes, you follow your child's interests, but what these people are doing isn't going to end well.

Okay, so they taken a concept an extreme. I do have a question, though. How does your child know he/she is ready for a subject that they haven't been introduced too, yet. I'm assuming there isn't even an implied curriculum, just an idea of self and world discovery.

And, are children given a choice to be schooled or unschooled? If they've never been to school, how do they make an informed choice.

I'm probably complicating this.

:shrug:

in that you're asking questions and not just believing that video.

Unschooling is about exposing your kids to all sorts of things, to spark their interests in different things and show them all the opportunities they for learning that you can find. Our house is filled with books on a huge amount of subjects and a lot of different levels. And of course, there are more at the library. We haven't used many textbooks as they're usually dry and full of errors. We've located classes in the community, online or with tutors who love the subjects they teach. Many of the resources are free and/or low cost. The internet is such a great source of information and groups doing the same things you're doing and able to recommend things that worked or didn't work for them. We exposed the kids to all sorts of sports, arts and more academic subjects and offered them choices about what to study or explore. They got to make a lot of choices with guidance and insight we provided because they didn't yet have the experience to know about many things. My oldest loves puzzles and was extremely good at them from the time he was small. Languages, to him, are puzzles to be solved. Since you spend a lot of time with your kids, you know them well, know how to lead them in different directions and to foster their natural love of learning. I used to leave books around that I thought they'd find interesting. I told my son I needed to store some books for when he was older in his room......at 9 he was reading about all sorts of things he'd never have had the opportunity to learn about until college....and understanding them. Whatever he didn't understand we'd talk about and research and perhaps find mentors for him to interact with.

He was involved in the decision to leave school, but I made that decision (he was 8) and he was welcome to go back if he chose. My youngest has never been to school, but would like to try high school next year and we've set up certain goals.. things he'll need to learn before then so that he won't have any gaps. He's been on a different path than regular schoolers and has a wider base of knowledge, but there are certain things he hasn't been interested in, so we'll bring him up to speed on those things. An enormous amount of time is wasted in schools waiting in line, waiting for the teacher to get the class under control, and waiting more when it falls apart because the 1/30 ratio just doesn't work. What is taught in k-12 can be learned by almost everyone in a much shorter span of time, if you're not constrained in a room with 30 other people your own age. Plus there's the whole socializing problem. Who wants their child socialized by a bunch of 5 year olds? When you're not locked up all day and are out in the world, you interact with all different ages and you learn how to get along in the real world.

It is complicated and there are as many ways to "home school" as there are home schoolers. Most people seem to start home schooling with a curriculum, but since that model doesn't work for all kids, you've got to be pro-active and find what does.

Thanks for the question!

You make a number of great points. There are parents that do a miserable job at home schooling if we're using some kind of matrix. But, there are also some college students that I've encountered that were home schooled that knew several languages, had a better grasp of advanced math, and definitely a greater vocabulary. They often played community sports or had some other outlet like music or art, but they were definitely well rounded. A couple had hobbies or interests that weren't even available at our local schools. Their parents made the effort to find a tutor or teacher for that specific interest.

I often wondered what it must've been like to be the "sole" driver of your academic pursuits in high school. Where you're not sharing a teacher's attention with 20 other children with various interests, especially with many who really don't want to be in the classroom.

I have also wondered if our current "group" learning process is part of our educational problem. It works for some children, but clearly not all. If we could offer a much more individualized approach with our children, would that help with drop out rates? What if you could move on to the next level or concept when you were totally comfortable with it. Not when a lesson plan said to move forward or when the rest of the class caught up.

Is it possible that the success some unschoolers and homeschoolers are experiencing is a factor of an individualized learning plan that emphasizes that student's singular learning style ALL THE TIME. I do realize the idea is not to have a plan necessarily for the unschooler unless it's student driven. We've known for years that children learn differently. So, we attempt to train teachers to accommodate for as many different styles as possible in a classroom. But, inevitably someone's style isn't being met at times.

But, for a 17 year old on the verge of dropping out of school because he's in a classroom full of 9th graders, perhaps we should investigate a new model. Would a child remain in school, if he was no longer being compared with other children? If someone was meeting his unique needs every day, all day without the distraction that children at different learning levels can bring.

You've given me a lot to seriously think about. I appreciate your time.

every summer I took a theme and would explore it. One summer it would be ancient Rome and greece. One summer it was the Middle Ages ( I even learned chess). I spent one summer learning about Science Fiction and Space. One summer was total Shakespeare and England.

They finally tested me and put me in AP classes. When the teacher presented me with a list to pick my books to read-I had read them all on my own. She said she believed that I was a self directed learner ( she looked at my library record) and turned me on to modern classics: Tolkien, Vonnegut, Hunter, etc.

And then there was my brother............. Mother bought him comic books just so he would read. She finally got him into a trade (welding). He is smart, just not in 'book learning'.

There were 4 of us and each of us were different. I was the only one that graduated from HS. Everyone else got a GED and all got varying degrees of higher education. Mom had her work cut out for her. But she made sure each of us were educated in order to make our way in the world. So out of 4 kids, 1 was self directed and 3 were not.

My daughter, while smart, required prodding. She took up an instrument when in the fifth grade. As with most musicians I know-she wanted to give it up when she was a teen. I put my foot down and made her continue (but I let her take up other instruments and start her own band). She has thanked me many times since as it looks like she will have career in music.



The parents in this video are woefully lacking and they are harming their children by abandoning their parental duty. They offer no guidance.

Maybe you weren't fully unschooled...I think you were schooled + (plus). You were clearly self directed, you had your mother providing access, support and direction, and then you had a teacher tuned into your personal needs. That's a winning combination in my book, any day of the week.

All types of schooling, "unschooling" included, clearly places responsibility squarely on the shoulders of parents to be very attentive and upon discovering individual interests and needs...providing that support.

Perhaps we're simply expecting too much of schools. With my own children, when I find them drawn to an area, I find other ways (outside of school) for them to pursue it.

Is every child really a self-directed learner? But, some have so little access to individual attention and direction, that they never realize their full potential. Every child clearly learns at a separate pace.

I think I have a much better understanding of what unschooling is meant to be. It sounds like it offers a lot of potential in the hands of an attentive parent. The video gives the impression of just the opposite...a lack of attention really, neglect. But, if anything, in order for unschooling to work well, it would require much more attention than that provided by parents who send their children to school every day...because now you're watching for learning opportunities throughout every single day.

This will definitely change the way I look at my sons summer "vacation" this year. LOL.

Thanks for all the information.

You've got it! Learning is 24/7, just as parenting is.

needs of her children. Sounds like she provided a great environment for each of them and plenty of guidance along the way. That really is the basis of unschooling. Home schoolers would call that after schooling. They may not all be self-directed but your example shows that if we're really listening and know our children we can do a better job of setting them up to succeed. Just like learning, success is different for everyone.

I like this idea the best

"What if you could move on to the next level or concept when you were totally comfortable with it. Not when a lesson plan said to move forward or when the rest of the class caught up."

I think this would be key in making public school work for more children. It would lessen the boredom factor enormously, provide motivation to move quickly through areas of study that come easier to each child and ensure that you'd have the time to master the subjects that are more difficult for you.

Segregating children by something so irrelevant as age makes no sense at all and sets up an entirely unnatural and artificial environment that you'll never encounter anywhere in the real world. Some people say that children "need" the school environment to learn to get along with others and to have that common experience, but not being forced to spend the majority of your day with only the same aged children provides a much more normal and enriching atmosphere.

Behar Show. They are very precious parents who think their children's lives is all about them (the parents). Feel sorry for the kids.
Joy did not seem to be very impressed with them either.

There must be some amount of structure because EXPOSURE is what piques interests and drives the Unschooling philosophy. Either that family is just confused, or the editing of the segment was biased. (Could the "journalist" be any more condescending?) Wikipedia and "unschooling.com" offers a better overview than what was offered here.

It is criminal neglect.

Based upon parental misunderstanding of what an "education" is.

nothing and don't represent any home schoolers I know. It's really too bad that someone with an obvious bias and agenda chose this family as an example of anything. Neglect, I agree.

that's why they don't represent any home schoolers you know, they're not home schoolers.

They are labels, not descriptions. Home schooling doesn't mean you bring schooling home and sit around the table with mom and never leave the house. It's just an alternative approach to education.

What they called themselves are radical unschoolers. They certainly appear to have a radically different approach to parenting and "education", but they are not representative of anyone but themselves.

Unschooling is different for every family, for every child. If they wanted to present a fair example of it, they certainly failed and I believe they presented this extreme example to discourage anyone from stepping outside of the box.

I honestly didn't know the difference before and thought that the difference between the two was that homeschooling is educating your kids at home and unschooling is just letting your kids do whatever they want. Personally, when I have kids they will be given a more holistic education than the usual schools offer. I intend to send them to a school like this, if I can afford it at the time.

http://www.greenschool.org/

Thanks for the insight. As I said earlier, the parents in that video seem to be unparenting, which is totally irresponsible.

The parents do seem to be unparenting....sad. Unschooling is sometimes described that way... letting your kids do whatever they want. I hope more people will look a bit further than this video and discover that there's a lot more to it. I know it won't work for everyone, but it's a legitimate way to get an education and can be really successful.

If you only show the absolute extreme of anything, you're not presenting the truth. Unschooling is about exposure and providing the opportunities and resources to allow children to research, explore and learn to question what they're hearing, reading and seeing. They're not limited to the the shallow exposure to only a few subjects that school provides. It's about more education, not less.

I wonder how long they had to look to find them.....

Un-frickin'-believable. Are truant officers extinct now?

It has been an extremely successful program for Beloved Daughter; HOWEVER, we do follow a curriculum, and we do meet monthly with a teacher, who provides resources. We go through a charter school. I would say that part of our curriculum is our daughter's choice, but there is structure.

I've always respected people who simply decided that they could do a better job themselves in terms of educating their children themselves. How supportive was your family and your community?

My sister has been really supportive of it; that's pretty much the story re my friends also.

Of course, I've made so many homeschooling friends - that is a wonderful thing.

The way I explain makes sense to people. I say, "Look, the average school wants the parent to work hours per day with their kid. It's necessary nowadays. Now, I do it when we're both feeling good, and aren't tired. I have a great deal of education, and I've been trained in tutoring anyway. Her program is what's best for her." Then, people understand.

When I was 10 years old, there was a lot I learned to do, chemistry included. Of course, in those days, you could buy all sorts of things by mail order that would make for exothermic reactions with lots of light and sound.

There will always be a small number who will succeed at unschooling: Kim Peek, Glenn Gould, Daniel Tammett, and those who just don't fit into the normal schooling model. Schools are geared to making average progress with average students studying average curricula.

Simple as that, literally.

Those parents are experimenting with their kids. "Let's see what happens if we treat them as adults from the age of 5".