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Yes or no, will you pledge to abolish corporate personhood?

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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 06:40 PM
Original message
Yes or no, will you pledge to abolish corporate personhood?
Edited on Fri Nov-23-07 06:41 PM by vmaus
 
Run time: 01:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d04EiEvV_ws
 
Posted on YouTube: August 22, 2007
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Posted on DU: November 23, 2007
By DU Member: wundermaus
Views on DU: 1592
 
At EVERY Opportunity - Demand an answer from the Presidential Candidates:
"Yes or no, will you pledge to abolish corporate personhood?"

This is the core issue facing our nation. How or if we address this central issue will determine the outcome of almost every other issue or crisis in The United States and the world. We, the People must not ignore this fallacy any longer or it will surely exterminate Life on our planet.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is another important issue that needs to be addressed.
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. not only the candidates should be asked this question though.
all the people should. if they answer no then they are part of the problem.

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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. It requires either Constitutional amendment or revisit by Supreme Court
The principle of corporate personhood was, unfortunately, the result of a 19th century Supreme Court decision based on the 14th amendment. It astounded the amendment's chief framer. We certainly don't want to repeal the 14th, since it is central to civil rights. (Many conservatives want to repeal it, for just that reason.)

So... the only way to undo this is either to ratify an amendment that clarifies the status of corporations and reverses that decision, or to change the nature of the Supreme Court and then force a case to it that leads to its reversal on that issue.

:hippie:
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thom Hartmann, author of "Unequal Protection," says a court clerk...
...wrote erroneously in a note on that "decision" that it was the decision of the Supreme Court when in fact it was not. And the rest is history.

I don't recall the details as it's been a long time since I read the book.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I doubt that will be much help. Some right-wingnuts argue the 14th was never properly ratified.
Those kind of arguments rarely go anywhere. Potentially, it is another reason for the court to weigh the merits, rather than standing by old decision. But it will still require further court action. This next election is crucial. We can't have more far right Supreme Court justices. Find two 18 year-olds, and drag them to the poll with you in November 2008.

:hippie:
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Interesting that corporate personhood's birth was based on a lie.
You're probably right that nothing will get done. We can't impeach Bush/Cheney when their lies are fresh as new-mown hay.

But here's a summing up of that old lie that has had us by the neck (to be polite) for so long:

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/01/int05004.html


BuzzFlash: What changed after the Revolution? You date the rise of "corporate personhood" to the post Civil-War era and the 14th Amendment. Can you briefly explain?
Thom Hartmann: Well, I've described how corporations were held on a short leash by the states after the Revolution. And they largely stayed that way until after the Civil War. During the Civil War, Lincoln had lifted many limitations on corporate size and behavior in order to get more war materials. He also hugely subsidized the railroads to expand across America, to transport munitions and soldiers. By the late 19th century, over 180 million acres of American land had been given, free and clear, to the railroads for their expansion. They'd become the largest and most powerful corporations -- both in terms of wealth and in terms of their ability to control transportation -- that America had ever seen. They completely transformed the face of America, and transformed our politics as well. So it was in this environment that the railroads began to try to influence or corrupt government to enhance their own power and profits. But government fought back. When Santa Clara County sued the Southern Pacific Railroad, that was the beginning of the end. …..For example, in 1873, one of the first Supreme Court rulings on the Fourteenth Amendment, which had passed only five years earlier, Justice Samuel F. Miller minced no words in chastising the railroads for trying to claim the rights of human beings.

The fourteenth amendment’s "one pervading purpose," he wrote in the majority opinion, "was the freedom of the slave race, the security and firm establishment of that freedom, and the protection of the newly-made freeman and citizen from the oppression of those who had formerly exercised unlimited dominion over him."
But in the 1886 case, we are told by over a hundred years' worth of history books and law books, the Supreme Court decided that corporations were, in fact, persons, and entitled to human rights, including the right of equal protection under the law -- freedom from discrimination.
What was really amazing to me was that when I went down to the old Vermont State Supreme Court law library here in Vermont, and read an original copy of the Court's proceedings in the 1886 "Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad" case, the Justices actually said no such thing. In fact, the decision says, at its end, that because they could find a California state law that covered the case "it is not necessary to consider any other questions" such as the constitutionality of the railroad's claim to personhood.
But in the headnote to the case -- a commentary written by the clerk, which is NOT legally binding, it's just a commentary to help out law students and whatnot, summarizing the case -- the Court's clerk wrote: "The defendant Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

That discovery -- that we'd been operating for over 100 years on an incorrect headnote -- led me to discover that the clerk, J.C. Bancroft Davis, was a former corrupt official of the U.S. Grant administration and the former president of a railroad, and in collusion with another corrupt Supreme Court Justice, Stephen Field, who had been told by the railroads that if they'd help him get this through they'd sponsor him for the presidency.

I later discovered that the folks who run POCLAD -- the Program on Corporations, Law, and Democracy -- had already figured this out, and that there had been an obscure article written about it in the 1960s in the Vanderbilt Law Review, but it was, for me, like running down a detective mystery. So that was when the foundations for corporate power were laid in the United States, and they were laid on the basis of a lie.


Wish I could believe that the votes of two 18-year-olds, as well as my vote, would actually have *any* impact on who's going to be the American Prez starting in 2009. Neocon scum who control the voting process in a myriad of ways have decided that persons -- real persons -- are not equally protected with regard to having their votes count.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Interesting history. That suggests it's not quite as ingrained in case law....
As many think. Thanks for posting that.

:hippie:
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. You're welcome. I would never have ferretted out that information...
...but Thom Hartmann asked some of us in the court reporting field to read the rough draft, as he was writing "Unequal Protection," and that's how I became aware of this.

It makes you wonder what else we think we know, but don't, doesn't it?

I've been thinking lately that corporate personhood came about as a result of one of our early "deciders," who did his own version of a "signing statement."

A pox on all their houses! Or better yet...an impeachment!
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Amazingly, I think the court has actually acknowledged this
Back in the 1970s, if memory serves well- and I only read this one time, and can't for the life of me remember where- I think the SCOTUS actually had a chance to reverse this, and refused, due to the economic damage a correct decision would cause.

In other words, modern courts know it was a fuckup, but "done is done".

:grr:
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I'd like to frame the question as "Do you support 'court clerk activism'?"...
... and follow that with asking why our courts have not overturned that "court clerk activist" decision, especially when it is the right thing for Americans at large.

The fact that this question (and similar VERY targetted questions against corporate power like public campaign financing) has been avoided by the media is also a clear reason why this is an essential question that somehow needs to bubble through the corporate filters and get to the candidates on a national stage. If it can do it JUST ONCE in a meaningful way, perhaps it will get a lot of folks on air in various places to ask questions about it and raise it as a national issue. Right now most people have NO clue what you are talking about when you mention this issue. And that of course IS by design by the Korporate media today!
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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Here is a more detailed presentation of this issue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsMyDSx2fq8">Our greatest challenge is to Abolish Corporate Personhood

The U.S. Constitution, which defines our nation of popular sovereignty, boldly begins with three simple words, written large, "We the People." These three famous words convey responsibility equally to all people to make our own laws.

But "We the People" have never included all the people. Those in power always try to maintain power. Initially, only land-owning white men voted. It took a century, the Civil War and three constitutional amendments to abolish slavery and let black men vote. The 19th Amendment ratified in 1920 let women vote. In the 1960s, amendments eliminated poll taxes to protect poor, mostly black voters, and allowed Washington DC voters to participate in presidential elections. In 1971, the 26th Amendment established a consistent national minimum voting age.

But as soon as freed male slaves were allowed to vote, the wealthiest white men created a better way to maintain control. Starting in the 1880s, ironically using the 14th Amendment, one of the Reconstruction Amendments that abolished the legal fiction that a person was property, corporate attorneys convinced a few judges (who were previously corporate attorneys) to create corporate personhood, the legal fiction that property is a person. This gave corporations, which are non-human, artificial legal entities for owning property, some of the rights intended for freed slaves. Toiling another century, more attorneys convinced more judges to expand corporate rights to add protections from the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments. (Legislators who were elected through the largesse of corporations shoulder the blame for allowing these decisions to stand.)

Today, corporate personhood is fully mature, giving corporations all the rights necessary to combine with their wealth to control our governance. Using modern media and marketing science, voters are persuaded which candidates to elect. With gifts, campaign contributions and no spending limits on lobbyists, lawmakers are influenced. "We the People" are not in control; instead, non-humans dominate the process of making laws that control humans!

Don't be fooled into believing that corporations are controlled by humans. Although corporations were initially created centuries ago by lawmakers for the purpose of serving the public good, they now must obey legal obligations to strive for profit, not public good. Corporations are not human, they simply don't share our morality or mortality and they have no business participating in the process of making laws that govern people. Democracy embodies the ideal of one person, one vote, but corporations have hijacked democracy by diminishing the power of all our votes below the influence of their wealth.

To gain control, humans must ban corporations from politics using a constitutional amendment that abolishes corporate personhood. Corporations serve a vital function in our society; they allow capital to be combined to accomplish amazing things. They drive our glorious way of life and prosperity. We must provide corporations with the rights and tools they need to thrive while serving the public good; we can do that without letting them participate in our law making process. But they'll use their persuasive powers to disagree. They'll vilify candidates who promise to limit corporate influence. We must be strong and ignore their deluge of ads and pundits, and only vote for candidates who put "We the People" above "We the Corporations."

If you believe in America's ideals for democracy, that all people are created equal and have an inalienable right to govern themselves, then you have a civic obligation to understand how corporate personhood nullifies democracy. Corporate personhood is an insidious and undeniable threat to our democracy. We've allowed corporations to get their powerful tendrils so deep into every facet of our society that we can no longer do anything without corporate approval. So until we abolish corporate personhood, we are slaves and corporations are our masters.


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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. You know, I've given the issue thought, and I don't think it's corporate personhood
that has led to the situation we find ourselves in. I think the problem goes directly to the manner in which we set up corporations- it goes to the corporate veil itself, which shields corporate shareholders.

As long as there is a lack of personal accountability in business, the societal transgressions we see coming from corporations will continue. In corporations, we have created machines that have no moral compass- not only is money their bottom line, it's their ONLY line. We created these corporations to do exactly what they're doing- make money for shareholders- and they are very successful. Yet, those who are making money are not accountable for the actions of the corporation.

That's all this whole thing is. We've reaped what we've sewn, gotten exactly what we asked for in creating these entities. It's not personhood- it's simply the nature of the beast.
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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I tend to agree with you...
Corporations defined as having rights of persons are by their very design similar to a greed disease / cancer borne vector. It has no higher level of consciousness, it simply functions at the reptilian brain level, to gather as much wealth and power to itself as possible to the exclusion of all else. Even killing the host is not considered. I've also looked at some corporations as greed amplifiers, and when they get too powerful, they break into oscillations, resonate and then implode. They inevitably destroy themselves and all they come in contact with. The idea that a property (a corporation) is a person (citizen) is false,corrupt, and undermines the foundations of human citizens' rights. The source of power in a republic is in the hearts and minds of it's citizens. If the most powerful citizens have no heart and function only at the glandular level, we are doomed to exist (and perish) in a primal, brutal, and self destructive conclusion.
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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. The Corporation
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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'm for the free use of the death penalty
for corporations.

Revoke the death penalty for natural persons. Invoke, and often, for the corporations.

That conditions are just the opposite speaks volumes about our racist corporatocracy. Democracy is a sham and -always- has been.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Let's have a drink. I agree, sadly! We Americans are as brainwashed...
...as the Soviets ever were. All along, we thought we were free!
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Nictuku Donating Member (907 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. self delete
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 10:17 PM by Nictuku

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. Corporations can't vote
They may affect the vote with financial contributions, but then so could a partnership or an individual.

The issue is campaign finance reform, not "coporate personhood." A corporation is a legal entity that can exist apart from an individual, but it does not have individual rights. An individual has an estate, property, that exists parallel to the way a corporation exists - but also have a personhood that is subject to life and liberty rights. The corporation does not have that. People are taking "personhood" in the wrong way - in the nineteenth century, they would only be referring to the fact that it could sue or be sued, enter into contracts or not, as an entity.

If we did away with that, we'd have chaos now. We can't expect this economy to be run only by individuals. A contract would have to be made for every transaction individually. This might be great for lawyers, but it would slow down everything down considerably.

For example, you'd buy a car from an individual in every instance. You and that individual need to make your own contract. Something goes wrong, and you sue the individual. You win. Individual has disappeared, or has no money, or just refuses to pay. You have to pay a lawyer or at least go to court to have the sheriff levy on the person's assets. The person does not care about the damage to his reputation, since it would take a lot of effort on your part to publicize that person's failings, and there are, at the same time, millions of other such cases and no one sees anything unusual here.

So corporations are good for something. They have a motive to pay off their judgments, offer warranties, take care of problems without letting them all go to court.




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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. This is factually incorrect:
"A corporation is a legal entity that can exist apart from an individual, but it does not have individual rights. An individual has an estate, property, that exists parallel to the way a corporation exists - but also have a personhood that is subject to life and liberty rights. The corporation does not have that."


Our Bill of Rights was the result of tremendous efforts to institutionalize and protect the rights of human beings. It strengthened the premise of our Constitution: that the people are the root of all power and authority for government. This vision has made our Constitution and government a model emulated in many nations.

But corporate lawyers (acting as both attorneys and judges) subverted our Bill of Rights in the late 1800's by establishing the doctrine of "corporate personhood" -- the claim that corporations were intended to fully enjoy the legal status and protections created for human beings.
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/

TIMELINE OF PERSONHOOD RIGHTS

Of the 14th Amendment cases brought before Supreme Court between 1890 and 1910, 19 dealt with Negroes, 288 dealt with corporations
http://www.nancho.net/corperson/corptime.html

RACIST CORPORATOCRACY.

That's all it ever has been.

The rest is American MYTHOLOGY.


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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Not so, it is true
And accurate. A corporation is not evil in and of itself. Let's get the difference between bad corporations and good corporations. Because some are bad doesn't make them all bad. The idea of a corporate entity for doing business is a good one. Individuals or partnerships doing business could do evil things, too.

People are confusing the form with the substance here. It's not the corporations, partnership, or individual in the abstract. It's what the corporation, partnership, or individual does that is good or bad or in-between.

This is a non-issue. Forget the form of doing business and look at what it is they are doing and judge them on that, not on their mere form of doing business.
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Mozcram Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. there does, though, need to be correction made in the law
so that the protections designed for individual people are not abused by
business corporations. structural changes are in order.
we do need to fine tune the system so that
corporations do not have an inordinate legal advantage.

reform may be difficult, but it is in fact very very important
another angle is that our economic system of capitalism threatens
to overwhelm us with its implicit values and this endangers our society, our
well being and our environment - we need to take a look at this.
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