What I did at Church on Sunday.....

We left. Got up and walked out. Everyone was seated and we were in the middle of the congregation so it was pretty obvious when my family stood up and walked out (me, hubby and kids). We just couldn't take it anymore.

My husband and I went home, wrote a letter (below) and then sent it to the Pastor. We haven't heard back yet. I am posting 'the letter' here to DU in the hopes of receiving validation, input and even correction as it is warranted. Sorry in advance about the length of our letter, which should be titled "Baby Wipes and Toothpaste" ::wry lol::
_________________________________________________

Greetings,

Our family is having a very difficult time remaining at one with our church fellowship due to what we feel is consistent support for the Iraq war. We understand that some may say "oh but, we are just supporting our soldiers" however it is these very soldiers who very well may will serve as instruments of death and destruction to another people, the Iraqi civilians.

“Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” – Matthew 25:45 (NRSV)

Who would be considered "the least of these" in terms of American soldiers and the Iraqi people? Would 'the least of these' be those who comprise the greatest army of our times or would it be the poor, downtrodden Iraqi civilian who faces daily violence, medical neglect and hardships that we American's couldn't hardly imagine having to endure?

Who is it that Christ would want us to support, the warrior soldier or the widowed Iraqi? The warrior soldier or the orphaned children who's parents were 'accidentally' killed (by our soldiers) at a poorly marked checkpoint? The warrior soldier or the Christian Iraqi's who now face persecution like never before in their lifetime?

In terms of the men in our body who are now in service overseas; it is our understanding that most, if not all, have volunteered for this service. It is also our impression that those in our church actually admire this and think that these men have done a good and honorable thing.

We struggle to understand how the commandment "thou shalt not kill" is not valid just because one kills under the covering of our wicked and ungodly government. Yes we are told to obey the laws of the land but we are also told that God's law comes first and that we are not to uphold unjust worldly laws that go against the teachings of God and his son Jesus. So, for us it doesn't work to say "oh it's on behalf of our government" and even more of a fallacy to claim that such warrior actions are somehow to the benefit of the American people as a whole. Volunteering to murder on behalf of our government doesn't negate "Thou shalt not kill". No, the bible doesn't say "thou shalt not kill, unless you have been raised to desire combat and your government says it's OK!"

We are told that we can measure 'fruits' to discover if something is good and of God. What are the fruits of our actions in Iraq?

* The world is a less safe place due to our attack on a basically run down country. We have made Iraq a breeding ground for terrorism. The amount of terrorist attacks, outside of Iraq, have dramatically increased and all signs point toward even more violence in the future. Why? It doesn't help that we have created a climate where children are being raised in a state of war, who will know nothing but trials and hardship and will grow up to view that sort of strife as normal. Otherwise known as BAD FRUIT!

* HUNDREDS of thousands of innocent iraqi civilians have been killed or displaced from their homes. BAD FRUIT! Here we have a good glimpse at 'the least of these' that we feel Jesus was talking about.

* Persecution of Christians has risen around the world. In Iraq, Christians now fear for their lives when under Saddam they had freedom of religion and in fact the protection to practice how they pleased. Now they face daily ethnic cleansing for their faith. BAD FRUIT!

* Due to the chronic persecution, Christian sects who have inhabited parts of Iraq for thousands of years (Nineveh anyone?) are now fleeing the country in droves. What was portrayed as an "open door" into Iraq, for Christianity to spread, has in actuality led to a downfall of the established Iraqi Christian Communities. BAD FRUIT!

* American money, by the billions, is geared toward our War Machine to the deficit of the least of thesein our own country. We, the American people, have unlimited funds for war yet continue to cut benefits (food, housing, health etc) to those of us who are 'the least of these' in our society. We spend money to enable war yet turn our backs on the pain and suffering of the sick, widowed, orphaned, homeless. Sure, we are a church try to offer bits of support here and there, especially to those in our Body who are in need, but does that end our obligation to truly love and sacrifice for 'the least of these' and.. would the soldiers of the greatest army of the world really qualify as 'the least of these'? Is that *really* where our support, as Christians, is supposed to be going?

*When our soldiers do come home, they have to fight to get the support they actually need. By the time many of them come home they would be what we would consider as 'the least of these' because they come back so broken and so abandoned by the very government who solicited their service to begin with! Talk about BAD FRUIT!!!

Some would and will say that it is better that we (America) fight the terrorists there in Iraq rather than in our own country. This is a very offensive and Anti Christ like statement in our opinion. Why? Because we don't have the right to "take our fight to them" on another peoples territory when to do so would destroy the people and their land!

Iraq was not a "terrorist breeding ground" under Saddam, other than the one pre war terrorist camp that existed in the northern part of Iraq. However, interested parties would note that this camp was out of Saddam's area of control and in fact was located in the "no fly zone" Kurdish area. I.e in an area where we wouldn't allow Saddam to operate (due to his persecution of the Kurds). Hence, the only pre war terrorist camp in Iraq was in an area that the UN patrolled, not Saddam.

But then we invade and crazy islamists from around the globe flock to Iraq to become trained terrorists and killers of civilians and our soldiers! Our government says that it is better we engage those terrorists on another peoples land, despite the horror then brought to those people, because at least we aren't doing it here! Where is that "better to fight your foe on someone else's land so it is their stuff and lives destroyed rather than our own" principle in the bible?

That would be similar to our family picking a fight with gangsters but when they come to strike back we are not at home but rather have taken over our neighbors house. You know, so our stuff won't be messed up in the fighting. Who cares if our neighbors are innocent parties and may pay with their lives, 'it is better to fight them there than here!"

Does not anyone else see the absolute wrongness of that? Would Jesus face down his foe on someone else's land to avoid his own people enduring the trouble, thereby exposing innocent people to the conflict? We really don't think so! Therefore, in our way of thinking, it is UNGODLY for us to embrace the same principles when applied to Iraq and the hordes of terrorists who have flocked there for the chance to train and kill our soldiers and the innocent people caught in between.

No, Jesus wouldn't do that. In fact, the Jesus we have in our hearts is not a Warrior Jesus who fights with weapons of man nor would our Jesus (the Prince of Peace) advocate imposing our lust for war upon another (downtrodden) people. Our Jesus would suffer with them! mourn with them! and long for this evilness to end!

Yet, week after week we come to church to hear about how important it is that we support these warrior soldiers of our church. We appreciate that this is personal for many of those involved considering that it is your son, grandson, brother (etc) who are being shipped off and we understand the desire for us to 'support' these soldiers. However, there is something horribly wrong, in my opinion, when that is the singular purpose of our Church's position in terms of the totality of the Iraq crisis.

Again, who are 'the least of these' that Jesus was referring to. Is it really the warrior soldier of the greatest army of the world or the innocent civilians who live in the wake of that mighty army?

Why is it OK to kill, under the authority of our flag, when God commands us "thou shalt not murder". And, as you consider this please also consider the THOUSANDS of civilians "accidentally" killed. What of those who are just out and out murdered by our soldiers such as the civilians of Haditha or the 14 year old girl who was raped and then murdered along with her family by our soldiers? The abuses of Abu Gharib?

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Our soldiers, in many ways, have absolute power over the lives of the Iraqi civilians around them. These soldiers aren't all honorable men. Just ask Dr. Laura, who's son published an abhorrent webpage on Myspace in which he bragged about how he treated innocent civilians. He bragged about being allowed to kill (civilians). He ranted about loving his job and demonstrated this by creating images of debauchery; a soldier forcing a young boy to perform oral sex on him while the kids mother pleads for her sons life, a bound and gagged arab woman captioned "my little habib", images of rape etc.

So, basically to put it in a nutshell, when we come to church and hear about the need to support our soldiers we have these horrible images flood through our mind which leads us to then ask each other, "is this OF GOD"? Is our church's support OF GOD? Is there something we (the church) would be better off putting that level of effort toward? Time and again the thought "Iraqi civilians" comes to mind. Today our family left service when supporting our soldiers came up and then remained a topic of conversation.

Why do we as a body of Christ only voice support for our soldiers?

Why are we planning on sending tangible demonstrations of our support to only our soldiers? In the same way our soldiers need baby wipes because they can't always shower so do the Iraqi people need those same necessities! Who would Jesus support? Who would Jesus hand that baby wipe too? A soldier all hot and sweaty from battle or an Iraqi widow who has 5 children who haven't had a shower in a month and won't get one as soon as they get back to the green zone? Who would Jesus hand that tube of toothpaste too? A soldier who hasn't had the time to make it to the base commissary or an Iraqi family who hasn't had the privilege of making it to the market in a month due to the out of control violence? Who would Jesus mourn for, pray for and instruct us to help? The soldier of the mightiest army of the world or the downtrodden people who somehow try to live in the rubble left behind by the warring factions brought to being by our nations warring actions?

As the saying goes, WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the most difficult issues for us is that we view the church service as a time when we are supposed to be uniting together in worship of Christ. Our family doesn't support the war, it is wrong and based on what most reasonable people will acknowledge as, at the very least, bad intelligence. We are warned that as the end times draw near that many people will be deceived; good will be called evil and evil called good. We can't think of a much better example of that than the Iraq war that so many, especially of the "Christian" persuasion, embraced as JUST and even Of God. A "light unto darkness" if you will. Evil being called good!

Yet the destruction continues. The bloodshed grows, the suffering of the Iraqi people unlimited. We, as a body, are now sanctioning our nations participation in this continued travesty in the form of 'support for our soldiers' when the ones who are the least of these remain unmentioned and without the same help we now offer our military. How is this OF GOD?

Is this war OF GOD? Is it something that we as Christians are really supposed to support? Is it JUST for a Christian to kill if it is under the direction of their government? Are we as a church supposed to support the STRONG and MIGHTY or The Least of These? Who are we (our church) supporting and why? Are we as a body allegiant to the government even if we know that their laws/actions are unjust and against the teaching of Christ, ie does our patriotism run deeper than our Christ Likeness? (my family would feed the hungry, even if they didn't have a green card...surely Jesus would too, even it were 'illegal' under earthly law)

Is it possible to come to church without the war somehow coming up from the pulpit, even if in just the encouragement to 'support' our soldiers? Is it to much to think that we as the body of Christ would actually show as much (or more) care and concern for The Least of These that live under the occupation of our nation as we do for those who are the human force behind that occupation?

THOUSANDS of innocent people are, at this moment, suffering deeply due to our invasion of their country. Why is our church's voiced concern and support only for 'our soldiers' when those other people, the actual Least of These, are just as precious in the sight of God as are the men we are encouraged to support?

“Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” – Matthew 25:45 (NRSV)

(our signatures)

:applause:

:applause:

AMAZING and heartfelt letter. You know we support you at DU!

with them, they'll jerk you around, as George Lakoff has shown us:

"Why do conservatives appear to be so much better at framing?

Because they've put billions of dollars into it. Over the last 30 years their think tanks have made a heavy investment in ideas and in language. In 1970, Lewis Powell wrote a fateful memo to the National Chamber of Commerce saying that all of our best students are becoming anti-business because of the Vietnam War, and that we needed to do something about it. Powell's agenda included getting wealthy conservatives to set up professorships, setting up institutes on and off campus where intellectuals would write books from a conservative business perspective, and setting up think tanks. He outlined the whole thing in 1970. They set up the Heritage Foundation in 1973, and the Manhattan Institute after that.

And now, as the New York Times Magazine quoted Paul Weyrich, who started the Heritage Foundation, they have 1,500 conservative radio talk show hosts. They have a huge, very good operation, and they understand their own moral system. They understand what unites conservatives, and they understand how to talk about it, and they are constantly updating their research on how best to express their ideas. "

from Framing the issues: UC Berkeley professor George Lakoff tells how conservatives use language to dominate politics
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml

Second, the Bible says it twice

Luke 9 : 5 and Matthew 10 : 14

Since they won't receive the message in the Middle East, withdrawal of our troops is biblically required, at a minimum a pullback to the Gulf War I staging areas in Kuwait and Qatar etc.

:hi: But, that is in the works with organizations like Sojourners etc.

Churches that pander to patriotism do so mostly because it's popular, wins new members, keeps the coffers full--not out of a real commitment to a set of values. I suspect some do it sincerely, and have misunderstood the Gospel, but not most.

So, you probably need to shake the dust off and find another faith community.

May I ask what denomination your church is?


Thanks, though, for having the courage to speak out. I just wouldn't expect a positive response, were I you.

All the best,

Critters

Assembly of God. We have been going for about 2 years now. We have always been up front that we don't support the war and anytime we felt things were too political we would tell the Pastor as much, which would tone it down for a month or two.

Unfortunately, in the last 2 months we have had 3 families who's children have enlisted or otherwise been re-deployed. The back wall of the congregation is being taken over as a sort of tribute to these soldiers and their friends, including solicitations for us to donate goods to send off to the front.

One family has just recently sent 2 sons off to 'the marines' and proudly so. The mother told me that she supported her son's decisions because 'they had always been interested in aspects of the service... combat...' I was stunned and thought to myself "how can a child of a Christian family be raised to admire combat?" but, at that very moment I just didn't have the heart to get into it with this mom who's two son's just deployed. She is proud but also a worried mom in a type of mourning over the possibilities.

I did however buy the family, and my pastor, a great book titled Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd. He says it better than I ever could. Check it out if you get the chance!

http://vanguardchurch.blogspot.com/2006/08/myth-of-christian-nation.html

The whole denomination seems to be into the nationalist religion thing. Otoh, churches that are more socially/politically progressive would have a worship style you might find less than inspiring (I know this from experience--I have several new parishioners who are former Pentecostals and just can't get used to hymns and an organ.)

So, if you were to go elsewhere, I'm not sure where you'd be comfortable. You might want to post in the Progressive Christian/People of Faith Group for ideas.

You have my support, though. Your letter was great!

I was looking for an opening to post about another consideration of this issue... My husband is part of the (progressive) music team and is supposed to take lead (piano, singing) on Sunday. We use an overhead projector and contemporary music.

So now I have a concern about what is going to happen next Sunday, if hubby will be asked to not lead or, if the whole situation is just ignored. While I know hubby wouldn't do anything inappropriate, something in my soul tells me that (in general) the leadership needs to be watchful over leadership positions. How they act/react in this instance will demonstrate how appropriately they 'run' the church (for a lack of a better term). Does that make any sense?

Poor Hubby, he loves his participation and part on the worship team yet is dying inside knowing that we have sent this letter which deserves a response, specifically where that leaves him re the worship team and leading next week as planned. No answer/response would be worse than even one we didn't agree with....

and they TEND to be more liberal on war and peace issues.

The American Baptists (not Southern Baptists) also tend to be on the more politically liberal end of the spectrum, as do many Methodists and Presbyterians.

On the other hand, traditional formal worship done well can be even more inspiring, as you feel a kinship with all who have gone before over the centuries. I love the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer and Renaissance choral music for this reason.

It sounds like you guys are going to have to do some church shopping, and then one Sunday, you'll just know which church is right for you.

Their services varied from week to week; strangely, the young assistant pastor liked the traditional service and the older senior pastor was more contemporary. They were sort of the black sheep of the LCMS family.

so it's amazing that you should have found one that didn't.

They were just a little neighborhood church when I was a member. That was 20 years and a lifetime ago for me.

Their services tend to be contemporary, and they are a mystical sect of Christianity, yet very open and loving.

http://www.ucc.org/

I am about to respond to your letter below.

:hi:

..they were pretty much known for their 'morality drives'....and not much else.

I wish other Christians would speak up. I think many are intimidated by their pastor and their fellow church members.

Your church is not. I'd move on to a church that reads the red words and lives by them. When the world lives by the red words, it will be a good place. You can't support war and live truly in accordance with Jesus' directives.

You are following in the steps of your founder.

K&R

Or Jesus Christ!

(And there demonstrates the confusion w/in the church!)

LOL! I couldn't resist!

My favorite. I use this scripture all the time when confronted with this issue. We are all God's children. Saddam, Putin, W, you, me... all of us. Even if you are so bold as to be able to bring yourself to choose a "lesser" that person is still a child of God. It's Christianity 101.

Why would the Prince of Peace condone war? Why would the Lord bless any of us with "the root of all evil" (money)? On and on...

Good for you!

Bible, or at least it seems so.

Personally, it's one of my favorite books to study.

:hi:

Your letter reflects the best values of the Christian tradition.

I wish more Christians would embrace your values.

Christian Conservatives who have never supported the war yet still tried to remain a part of the Christian Conservative church... We had finally worked out the kinks (and had come to an agreement re the war) with our previous church of 4 years when we moved to another state and had to start dealing with this stuff all over again. Sucky!

Thank you for your reply and support. I salute you in return.

We may not share the same faith, but I share your values. :)

:shrug: Though that is changing with the work of Jim Wallis and Tony Campollo.

ideas of Jesus. Some people would find that schizophrenic but it doesn't seem that way at all to me. :D

Good for you.

And remember - it's not necessary to be a chicken to identify a rotten egg.
:-)

this poster says. I felt the HYPOCRACY of "praying for Chimp and our "Valiant Soldiers" just pushed me over the edge...and I wanted to support Charlie Rangel's "Bring Back the DRAFT Movement...but even that left me COLD...because I'm a Vietnam Baby who KNOWS that only the LEAST ARE KILLED to support the CORPORATIONS!

This is a moving post from a "person with convictions" and that's a quality long lost in today's world.

GOTTA GIVE A KICK AND RECOMMEND to this One. TRUTH TELLER'S get HIGH MARKS!

Our US Troops under the command of our military have had some rogue troops that have done some very terrible things, but the real unbelievable horror has come from the mercenaries that are paid by the corporate thieves that take the money and run. It seems that those in this country that aren't admitting that the military has been stripped of their authority, dignity and rules are fooling themselves. It will come out someday and they will say they didn't know. But they have to know if they have any brain power at all! The History Channel did an excellent show on this a couple of years ago named “Soldiers for Hire” that says it all.

We can only pray the rest of our population that is brain dead wake up before we loose more of our dedicated men and women in our military and take our country back!!!!!

You did the right thing - that takes a heck of lot of courage! I salute you!:patriot:

I suggest that if you can make your statement known to everyone in the church. Is there a time when they take public prayers? If so, simply put your first paragraph into a prayer form.

More often than not church seems to be a one way path. But I do not believe it was ever intended to be so.

I want to emphasize that your first paragraph is one that has echoed through my head for many years. And it does create friction with the "support the troops" mantra.

I praise you. Stand tall in your righteous indignation.

We are trying to do this "the right way" according to biblical principals on disagreements w/in the church.

After publicly walking out and going home to write and send the letter, I ran off to Costco for lunch from their Deli. Where I bumped into what I have, till now, considered to be one of the Elders of our church. His family greeted me soooo warmly, I asked if the man was an elder and learned to my surprise that we have not yet elected or otherwise designated elders since our new Pastor came on board a little over a year ago.

Normally I would wait a few days for the pastor to reply back and then (if not content with the response, or in the event that no response had been forthcoming) we would take our concerns to the elders of the church.

I have decided that since we don't have officially designated Elders that I will take our position to those who I can 'see' act in the Elder capacity, three people in particular. After that then it would be likely that we would take our position to the whole congregation. I AM just that bold LOL.

However, we want to do this the right way so we are trying to work w/in the biblically established process.


Thank you for your support and input. The messages of validation on this thread have actually brought me to tears more than once today. GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!!

My post was hastily done. I see you have a lot of thought into this. I am so glad to be a part of this community we have here. And I'm sure you are doing the right thing.

I so value those who stand by their principals of goodness and caring. To be empathetic of those who are suffering is a high standard. There is nothing more important to me than caring. I go through this life with great dissatisfaction from experiencing carelessness and arrogance. And it's so rare that people rise above the fear that is encountered when making such statements. Especially under circumstances such as yours. What a world we could be.

I so agree and love my DU family! I have been here for a few years now and although I am often a woman of few words, as evidenced by my limited number of posts to the forum, this forum is the 'home' where I find daily sustenance and sanity!

Thank you again everyone!!

:thumbsup:

Then hopefully you won't have to edit it too much.

How beautiful! How just! How loving! You are spot-on about what Jesus would think, imo. I pray your pastor's heart and eyes will be opened by this eloquent letter.

Some Christians are Old Testament, other are New Testament.

You cannot be a Christian if you do not follow the teachings of the New Testament. The whole idea of Christianity is the coming of Christ in the New Testament. Yet, some who call themselves Christians obsess over the Old Testament. It's the strict father vs. the nurturing mother that Lakoff talks about.

Old vs New Testament is exactly the argument. Many 'Christians' will have no problem finding scriptural validation for war in the Old Testament ('old covenant') yet become stumped and sometimes offended when asked to validate that position through scriptures in the New Testament ('new covenant').

Clearly some embrace the redemption, love and grace of Christ while denying the same to others. Validated by ignoring the tenants of the new for the blood letting validation of the old....

I will however remind you that Jesus forgave even the Roman Soldiers who crucified him, the robbers beside him, and the people watching.

He did not forgive the Ordained Religious Leaders using God to further their own Power & Greed, who were serving Satin by killing him, while caring little or nothing for the people (sheep). The least of these are everyone except them!

You can still love your children, even though the do bad things? Life teaches us to reward good behavior & punish bad behavior, as does the Bible. My point is that not all soldiers are Christian to support your view of American Soldiers - It is traditionally held that non-christians are held to the Old Covenant, while believers are held to the New Covenant. This makes for much confusion by mixing secular with believers; but I would think that in the Church, there would be no such confusion?

From a secular point of view; there are sheep, sheep dogs & wolves. It is the duty of the sheep dogs to protect the sheep from the wolves. I think Bush is very confused about the definition of "wolf", and in fact cries it way too often. And there are way too many who believe Muslims are the enemy, when in fact it is lies, deceit, killing, lack of caring, greed & power that were clearly the enemy of Jesus.

Well done, I say!

As the religious consciousness of the Jewish people evolved, they came to see God as universal and loving, not as "the wrathful avenger."

After all, the vision of the peaceable kingdom ("The lion shall lie down with the lamb...") comes from Isaiah.

Or take Micah 6:8--"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Read the later prophets, not the early, more tribally focused books, and you'll see an advanced vision of social justice.

... predict the future of the new covenant; I believe we were discussing the history part of the OT, which is very violent. Many confuse history with consent for current behavior? But your point is absolutely correct - good observation!

Do you by any chance live anywhere in the North Texas area? I had a very good friend who I would imagine to be you, about now. This friend's name was Lenore and she sings really great jazz.

Peace.

Edited to add. One hell of a rant, good job.

But your friend sounds like someone who could fit right in here at DU, consider inviting her! Thank you for your compliments. It has been 54 hours since emailing the letter, still no reply :-(

I'd come to your church! :applause:

:::TEASING:::

Redstone

"Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9

Good for you, Lenore.

I love that one too :toast:

The question I have been actively posing to people w/in my church when the opportunity arises is (usually one on one interactions), "If Jesus said 'blessed are the peacemakers' then what does that make the warmongers?"

The typical response is an indignant, "Are you saying I am a warmonger!?!" followed by me asking, "Didn't you just say you support the war? So...." (just leave the "so" hanging like a pregnant pause, the case has already been made).

I couldn't take the hypocracy of the Catholics. I am still very spiritual, and when we had a child I sought a new place of worship. We didn't have any luck finding something that suited us, but the final straw was when my husband's friend recommended her church. Do you remember the name John Poindexter? Anway, it was at the height of his scandal, and my husband said he couldn't stomach sitting for an hour with Poindexter in the pew across the alter from us. Since then, I've given up all hope of ever dragging my husband to another "institution of god".

For now, I'll keep up with spirituality on my own, as I don't see "religion" being part of my life anytime soon.

and I applaud you. It's horrible how many people have fallen for the "Christian hero Bush" crap, thankfully with time and efforts like yours I think those that can be woken from the trance are coming around.

it in the lobby and share it with the Church "family".

I mean, I hope he sees that it's out of love and strength of conviction and Christ-like compassion, not some personal attack on his faith or whatever. Maybe then he'll see that he needs to get on his knees and pray hard about what Jesus really would do here.

Before we converted to a different church, there were many times I wanted to walk out but didn't. In college, it would've cost me money in fines and possible social probation, and at my mom's church, social stigmation. There were times I glared at the pastor during a particularly offensive sermon, only to have him ask me about it later and give me the chance to rip into him (sexist bigot pastor!), but the only times I walked out were when I had a cover for it. I salute you for your guts and honor in raising your kids right and in your husband's respect for you that he didn't make you stay there. :patriot:

Yaa!

He went along with the whole war frenzy in the start and even once accused me of being a 'terrorist lover' when I repeatedly pointed out the lies of the Administration. I understood that he didn't have the privilege of being able to sit at home and listen to Powell and his farcical presentations to the U.N, for example. Hubby was won over within short order (prior to the war) although he didn't agree with me making our position a 'federal case' with our church.

He was involved with their alternative rock worship band and didn't want to risk the almost inevitable alienation that comes from taking a stand when 99.9% of the other people feel a different way. So, the first few letters to our then pastor and elder board were all on my own. It was all that much more a sad situation for me because I knew that, while my hubby did agree, he didn't understand why I was so convicted about making sure the pulpit wasn't being used (as one articulate poster stated, up above) as a 'propaganda tool' for the government.

However Hubbies heart changed prior to us moving to another state. Somewhere along the way he began to understand that the convictions of his soul were more important to stand true to than remaining silent in the hopes of preserving friendships and prestige.

Now he has no qualms about not only standing in support but also taking the lead, if you will. So much so that after I wrote the majority of the letter, he edited it, added to it, put his name to it and sent it from his email account. I am so proud of him! I need his agreement and support.

And thank you for yours!

:)

Every Sunday someone would ask for prayers for Bush (which I know he needs) but there was a rider about naysayers, or terrorists or something like that. Anyway, from time to time I would murmur "blessed are the peacemakers" to someone, or express concern about my 18 year old being drafted when we shared our worries. All these people were concerned about was on TV and keeping their kids a virgin. (as youth volunteer, I refused to do the abstinence only programs, citing data showing STD's were rampant in that crowd) Just get some of them talking about gays, all the while talking nasty about their neighbors too.

I tried to show that there are two versions of creation, and three of the Ten Commandments. (Even though two are similar) Finally I sent the pastor a link to fundies who are working to protect the environment. Our Pastor once said in the pulpit that environmentalists were "trying to scare us", but he denied saying it.

Once or twice I wanted to stand up and leave - so GOOD FOR YOU! I'm shouting with Joy and Happiness. Christianity is about Love and Kindness and Peace. {{{hugs to you and your family!}}}

I just don't get it - some of these people would do anything for you - giving and caring - maybe proving "there are none as blind as those who will not see."

I was wondering if you could give a bit more of a backstory about what they specifically were saying to begin with that sparked this.

Because these poor men sometimes aren't able to shower on a regular basis, they really really need us to send them baby wipes. Toothpaste is another gift box type of item that is highly prized, especially Aqua Fresh, for whatever reason.

As I hoped was expressed by my letter, this isn't an issue about whether or not we should support our soldiers with tangible items like baby wipes and tooth paste. The concern is that this is *the only* thing that is mentioned, re the war. Our soldiers are always *the only ones* we pray for. Are the American Soldiers 'the least of these' and are we following the teachings of Christ to *only* support the soldiers when the Iraqi people, truly "the least of these" are suffering so?

We endured the months leading up to the deployment/enlistment of the soldiers in question, what is totally killing me is the big board in the back of the congregation with their pictures, contact information and the (public, from the pulpit) solicitation for 'baby wipes and toothpaste' for these 'brave' men, who have to 'endure such hardship' while the church is wholesale ignoring the sin of the war (of our creation) and the suffering of the Iraqi people.

It's just wrong, in my opinion, to bypass 'the least of these' in our eagerness to offer comfort, care and constant prayer for 'the most of these'.....

I welcome correction where you feel I am in error.

The half in which you expressed so powerfully the need to recognize the conditions of Iraqis as well is spot on. But I absolutely find nothing wrong with them asking for these things for our brave soldiers either. I feel like you are undermining them and their hardships for sake of making your point, when you didn't really have to. I think the point could've been made equally as powerful without the seeming tone of resentment for having asked for those items for our brave and sacrificing men and women of our armed services over there.

So like I said, I'm kind of half and half with you on this one.

I never said "don't support our soldiers" but rather "why only, in light of the other"...

Thank you for your input.

I did not say the poster didn't support the troops. I only said I disagreed with the tone of resentment towards asking for supplies for them since I found that to be unnecessary in respect to also being angered by their having been a lack of request for the same care to Iraqi civilians. The latter point could've been made without the former. I think I have a fair point. I think that characterizing that point into a republican talking point of "don't support the troops" is highly disingenuous and twisted.

And it it a bit misleading for you to have put that in quotes as if I had.

"In terms of the men in our body who are now in service overseas; it is our understanding that most, if not all, have volunteered for this service. It is also our impression that those in our church actually admire this and think that these men have done a good and honorable thing.

We struggle to understand how the commandment "thou shalt not kill" is not valid just because one kills under the covering of our wicked and ungodly government. Yes we are told to obey the laws of the land but we are also told that God's law comes first and that we are not to uphold unjust worldly laws that go against the teachings of God and his son Jesus. So, for us it doesn't work to say "oh it's on behalf of our government" and even more of a fallacy to claim that such warrior actions are somehow to the benefit of the American people as a whole. Volunteering to murder on behalf of our government doesn't negate "Thou shalt not kill". No, the bible doesn't say "thou shalt not kill, unless you have been raised to desire combat and your government says it's OK!"


This slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children, in Iraq, could not have happened if these occupiers would have said "No ... this is Wrong and I won't do it".

Thanks for posting.

I worry about the troops and their families I hope they come home in the next few weeks but in that church the war drum seems to be beating?

BUT, and I think that this is a very important and brave point that Lenore made, Christians have Scriptural basis to question whether or not ANY support for American troops in this particular war, at this point, is truly in keeping with Christian beliefs.

I'm not going to bash the troops. Then again, I'm not Christian. I don't go to church every Sunday and profess to believe in Jesus as God. Those who do, however, ought to confront the many, many words attributed to Jesus that suggest that He would be totally against this war. It is arguable that this war, and even support for this war, is truly un-Christian.

As Lenore asks, What Would Jesus Do? According to my knowledge of Christian scripture (and I was a very active Episcopalian for many years), Jesus was not in favor of making preemptive attacks on weaker people. When He said "love your enemies as yourself," I don't think that He meant to kill and torture them, especially in the name of profit.

More Christians ought to be saying this out loud. I applaud Lenore for doing so. If more Christians focused on the words of Jesus and less on selected lines from Leviticus, I might still be one of them.

And there was absolutely disrespect toward our troops and a tone of resentment toward the church asking for supplies for them. My whole point is that while the OP's efforts toward enlightening others to the fairness and morality of wanting these things for Iraqis as well is quite noble and necessary, I found that point could've been made perfectly fine without the dismissive and resentful attitude toward the other end of the stick. I found the latter part to be a bit distasteful and overdramatized.

Here's what I mean:

"Because these poor men"

No need for that sarcasm and mockery toward our troops and their hardships, calling them 'poor men' in a seemingly diminutive way.


"what is totally killing me is the big board in the back of the congregation with their pictures, contact information and the (public, from the pulpit) solicitation for 'baby wipes and toothpaste' for these 'brave' men, who have to 'endure such hardship'"

Sorry, but there is so much unnecessary resentment there. There is a questioning of the bravery of our troops. Sorry, the men and women of our armed services are braver than most of us will ever be. 'Endure such hardship' was also sarcastically put, but I find it a disgraceful sentiment to imply that what are troops are going through over there is not considered 'enduring such hardship'.


"It's just wrong, in my opinion, to bypass 'the least of these' in our eagerness to offer comfort, care and constant prayer for 'the most of these'....."

Again, completely diminutive of our troops. No, I do not consider our brave men and women fighting for their lives overseas to be 'the most of these'.

So though I applaud the reasoning and passion in wanting the same respect and generosity for the Iraqi civilians, since I consider all life to be equal and worthy, I strongly disagree with the other tone of the premise which appears to be dismissing or downplaying the value or sacrifice of our troops.

I respect your right to your own point of view.

Your post seems to imply that, since if you felt otherwise I would think you'd find it a bit disrespectful to say they weren't, while mocking them as 'poor men'.

If you think are troops are in fact brave and that they are in fact enduring hardship, then how do you reconcile that with the statements of the OP that put those things in tick marks implying mockery of those concepts, as not being disrespectful?

I don't see how you can have it both ways. Since you seemed to be firmly against my perception that doing such things was a sign of disrespect, then I couldn't help wondering if that was because you felt they weren't such things to begin with. That's not being a jerk to inquire clarification of. But since you agree with me that they are brave and enduring hardship, then I can't make sense out of it for the life of me how you could find a sentiment mocking those concepts to not be a sign of disrespect toward them.

they havent annihilated an entire country on our behalf, have they? if not, what are they still doing there? and if so, should americans bear collective responsibility for the horror unleashed upon the iraqi people? no, they are carrying out a war under the auspices of the state

We're americans and they are american troops. You're playing a game of meaningless semantics and your flawed point is irrelevant in respect to the point I was making to the other poster. In fact, it appears the only reason you made it at all was in an attempt to distance yourself from them and demean them in some way. Personally, I'm proud of our men and women in the armed services and respect the absolute fuck out of them. But regardless, your post still had nothing to do with the intent of my other post so I'm not sure of the value of your having posted it to begin with in this context.

are beyond reproach i'm not sure if there's any point in talking to you

but let me ask, how exactly did we become americans anyway? sheer luck? predestination? by the goodness of our hearts?

and my meaningless semantics produce flawed points because my semantics are meaningless? feel free to elaborate on this

And again, your arguments are all semantical and meaningless. They still continue to have nothing to do with the context in which you replied. If you want to start your own thread talking about how none of us are americans and you don't want to be associated with our troops, then go for it. If I choose to reply to that thread we can discuss this absurdity there.

But until you actually respond with a reply that has anything to do with the initial point I was trying to make in THIS thread, then I'm not going to waste my time any further responding to the nonsense. :hi:

a face-saving way of saying "i don't know how to respond to your rhetorical questions"

:hi:

See, maybe you don't exactly understand how things work pal. But generally, when someone posts something about something, you're kinda like generally expected to respond to what it was they were talking about. If you don't, and go off on some ridiculously irrelevant and semantical babble spree that has no intellectual stimulation to it nor intrigue to discuss, then don't be all like surprised and stuff when people don't want to walk down your skewed tangent. And you're rhetorical questions were utterly silly. I'll tell ya what: Post your sentiments about our troops not being our troops and the concept that no one is an american and see the type of crowd you draw, ok?

But as far as this subthread goes in which you appear to be incapable of actually discussing the context of the discussion you nonsensically interrupted, there's no need to continue.

You really crack me up with your flawed logic. I have a feeling I'll be seeing quite a bit more of it from you. Can't wait! :rofl:

:hi:

because youre out there shoving the idea of THE TROOPS, THE TROOPS, THE GLORIOUS TROOPS down people's throats and trying to nail them to wall for not thinking of THE TROOPS as brave little christian soldiers, PAL

and walking out was also a powerful statement. Hopefully the church will take it to heart and start to truly examine their motives, faith and core beliefs.

:applause:

Thanks to you and your family for having the courage of your convictions. I wish more people had the clarity and compassion that you have; what a much better world it could be in the future.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

We have a new pastor. he's retired from the Army, worked in the prison system, and explained in a letter some personal info about he and his family, which included the statement that he is politically "conservative." He starts in September. My family has been in that curch for 5 generations, and if this guy starts up with some pro-war sit, we're leaving, and we'd be proud to do it just as you did Lenore! (If you don't mind me copycatting.

But if you can, try to develop a relationship with the man such that you can try to engage him in conversation about the issues, scripturally based of course! When he gravitates toward the OT, remind him we are a new creation under Christ hence the NT would take priority.

As they say, Christ came to redeem the world and established a new covenant with his people. If the new law contradicts the old then the new is followed. If the new law is silent on the issue then, and only then would one go to the old.

Most conservative christian pastors would not disagree with that position yet will find their war justifications are non existent when they acknowledge they find it only in the OT. God's providence be with you as you try to walk the pastor through to this point!

Christ guides us.

:thumbsup:

Your pastor is probably wondering how, or if, he (I presume male; forgive me if I'm wrong!) will respond. He may have been surprised at your reaction, and is having to re-think a lot of what's transpired.

My general rule, as a pastor, is to wait a day or two before responding to any letter. It gives me greater clarity and emotional distance. So it may take a while before you hear anything.

I wish you lived near here. We'd LOVE to have you in our congregations!

I'm going to recommend a (very) short story by Mark Twain called "The War Prayer." It's easily accessed on-line (it's that short). It reminds all of us that we are ALL God's children. God doesn't pick sides.

Jesus made a point of NOT hanging out with the powerful of the Roman Empire. We need to think about that.

Hope all goes well for you.
:hi:

and/or congregation to lead to such a letter? How much of the service focused upon the war and prayers for the soldier?

In our masses, we have the Prayers of the Faithful. Basically there are about seven or eight statements and everyone responds with Lord Hear Our Prayer. There is usually one that combines a prayer for peace and the safe return of our soldiers, but it's such a small part of our services that I have a difficult time imagining a religious service that is a rally for the war.

the six standard versions, there's a spot where you pray for whoever the president is, but it's left vague, so you can think, "That somehow some good may come out of his many screw-ups" or whatever you want.

I also have no problem praying for the safe return of the soldiers, because I hate to see anyone lose their family member, and many are victims of the "poverty draft," but we also pray for the victms of "war and persecution."

service, I bet that the prayer of the people is similar to the Prayer of the Faithful.

Whenever ours talks about the our leaders, it is more worded like: "We pray for our president and all other world leaders so they may lead us to peace. Lord hear our prayer." It's never about: "We pray for the president and his health. God Bless the President!" I actually like the way it's worded in our church because it leaves it non-offensive to people on either side of the political aisle. (Though the majority of people at my church are liberal. It's a Catholic Church in Brooklyn, for Christ's sake!) :)

Your words resonated with me, and moved me. I spent some time reading the first-person stories in Iraqslogger.com and wondered, is there anyone who has a CLUE what the Iraqi men, women and children are going through? Probably not many outside the progressive ranks. But it makes me want to cry sometimes, especially for the children. They did not deserve this.

I am glad you sent that letter to your pastor. This selective prayer stuff is for the birds....

:applause: :toast: :applause:

That's exactly what my husband has been quoting for the past 2 years.

Amen.

.

because they preach love of this war everywhere, when I have no problems praying for the troops, but if the pastors aren't going to be braveeeeeeeeeeeeeee and say, "blessed are the PEACEMAKERS" like Jesus taught, and we pray our President will find a way to end this war quickly and humanely" ---- then I'm not supporting them, I will pray for them, but I won't go to their church.

God bless you for writing a letter, wow! The only correction I can say, and I'm not being boastful about it, is as long as you guys are doing this with a heavy heart, and are humble about your convictions, then they can't say a word to you!

In Christ,
themartyred

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- check it out, top '08 stuff

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Because they don't make a fucking bit of sense to me.

:)

:shrug:

I looked at it and didn't know if I was supposed to be mad or what. I thought I should be made at something that seemed insensitive, but I guess you have to know what the hell somebody is getting at to actually be angry in the first place, haha. :)

Perhaps after you sober up....

O8)

except, maybe this should have been paragraph 2:

"Yet, week after week we come to church to hear about how important it is that we support these warrior soldiers of our church. We appreciate that this is personal for many of those involved considering that it is your son, grandson, brother (etc) who are being shipped off and we understand the desire for us to 'support' these soldiers. However, there is something horribly wrong, in my opinion, when that is the singular purpose of our Church's position in terms of the totality of the Iraq crisis."

It just seemed like there was a huge discussion of the Iraq war before we got to the point about how your church supported it.

and I wrote a column about the Christian just war tradition, based on a sermon given by a Priest at my Great-Uncles' church. What he spoke about, and what I eventually wrote about, is similar to what you say in this piece. As a Christian, life-long, I have struggled with the idea of churches rationalizing this war from a Christian point of view. It doesn't make sense. It's downright shameful. And again, as a Christian, it blows me away that the same people who demogogue something like abortion rights, see absolutely nothing wrong with participating in an unjust war. Thank you for your words and for your integrity. It counts for something, and it means a lot to those of us who struggle with the same emotions that you are struggling with as well.

I think you are dead on right but also need to remember that all churches are not that way.
I asm so thankful that I am in a church and a Church Movement (The Venyars) which has made a concious decision to be resloutely apolitical from the pulpit. We were away for Memorial Day but I assume we said a prayer for the troops but preface even that with "whether or not your support..."

I pray that you find a new Church home for your family quickly. I also pray that genuine fellowship with friends in this church you have left continues. I do not have the least pit of tension with what you said, but it can also prove painful to feel as though you have to part ways with friends. Don't get bitter.


So did you send it to the Church board? just the pastot or the entire congregation? Any response?

It blows my mind that people who call themselves Christians can support things like the death penalty and war.
Where do they get these warped sense of values? If they are actually reading their bibles, it is not from there for sure.

:hug:

there are times you have to follow your heart-it won't steer you wrong. Church should be a place of comfort (blessed are those who mourn....)and compassion and welcoming of all. I hope that you are able to find a church home that gives you these things. Sadly, I doubt if your current church will respond positively and change-though there is always hope!

Follow your soul and forget religion.

if they're still supporting * and his ungodly war, they're dyed-in-the-wool bushbots, and if there's to be any response by them, it will be to try to "deprogram" you and your family.

I say, run like hell away from that place. And like Sodom and Gomorrah, don't look back.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure it is all that rare. There does seem to be a repeating pattern here. Other congregations in fairly recent times have also glorified war and military conquest. Some the carved wood panels of this Nazi era church are pretty revealing.

The symbolism is kind of startling:

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,594882,00.jpg

slide show at: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTI5NDEmbnI9Mw_3_3,00.html

article here: http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,405922,00.html

And no, I am not posting this in order to call anyone a Nazi, or to accuse anyone of anything.

I just think that this bit of history is not all that well known, and it should be, that's all.

the Southern Baptist philosophy, but the name of the church is "Such-and-such Community Church."

Also, I quit going to a 12-step meeting I had been attending because somebody was holding forth about the protestors--it was the day after massive protesting around the world. The chairman sat there like the cat got his tongue. I got up and left.

We have had a hard time going at all. We used to go every Sunday and now we go maybe once a month. One time our Pastor said something about how George Bush is just trying to protect us! I could not go for about four months after that one. Your letter is beautiful and would be pleasing to God. I am going to bookmark it and send to a few friends who are feeling the same way. Blessings and peace.

But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

:hi:

they won't pay any attention.

You should have had the family pelt the pastor with rotten cabbage.

i wish there were more people of faith like you. Thanks for your thoughtful letter.

Chris Hedges has written many op/eds and a book on this very topic. His work can be found on www.alternet.org and www.commondreams.org

Chris Hedges (hedgesscoop@aol.com) is a graduate of Harvard Divinity School and won a Pulitzer Prize as a foreign correspondent for the New York Times. He is author, mostly recently, of “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.”

It's called idolatry! I left the SDA because of the idolatry of nation and flag worship. I can't imagine that the church of Acts would have a Roman flag standing up on the pulpit nor the new converts praying for Rome. I guess according to these fake or misled Christians, God was blessing America when it massacred the Indians and also blessed the slavery. People are so misinformed on the awful history of America.
:think:

Thanks for reminding me about how I always fight the urge to remove the Flag from the pulpit area for a place a little more appropriate. ANYWHERE but by the pulpit please!

Our church prays for peace in the ME every Sunday. Most of our members are against the war and a few organize local protests. I wish you were a member.

:applause:

It was Religion that stood up against the immoral acts of the government. Religious leaders lead the protests against the Vietnam war and for civil rights. Since then the right has put a lot of effort into co-opting religion to trick people into supporting their immoral efforts. We must stay and fight them in order to bring back what was once ours.

and death that we cast upon the world? This says it all.."That would be similar to our family picking a fight with gangsters but when they come to strike back we are not at home but rather have taken over our neighbors house. You know, so our stuff won't be messed up in the fighting. Who cares if our neighbors are innocent parties and may pay with their lives, 'it is better to fight them there than here!" Thanks for posting. Peace and love, Kim

Amazing. I really wish I could have been there.

I walked out 3 years ago.

It's definitely a good thing.

A courageous and right stand, Lenore.

I have asked my siblings (in a similar church environment) how often does your church/pastor/sunday school teacher pray for, or lead the congregation in pray for, our enemies.

"who would Jesus hand that toothpaste to" - says it all.

Thank you for giving Christianity the good name it deserves.

God be with you in what I know well is a difficult time.

:hug:

Lenore, post more. ;)

It's about time that actual Christians did speak out in every church across this nation. I thank you for doing the right thing, and for being a voice of reason amongst the madness.

:toast: to you and your family.

in the Congregational Church, did the closing prayer for my small town's post-parade ceremony. After all the "support our troops" messages and the speechifying of sacrifice and glory, he said, and I paraphrase, "Peace to the fallen from war. Peace to the broken by war. Peace to those who serve in war. Peace to all who love those who serve. Peace to all. For, after all, it is in Peace that our Lord wishes us to live."

My ultra-left cousin who was visiting that weekend said, "I knew he'd come through." I knew it too. I'm not religious anymore, though raised in the church my younger brother now serves. While we disagree on a few issues that face our nation today, my brother has his heart in the right place. Peace to us all who suffer anguish from the paths upon which our public servants have led us. God bless us all, whatever, or if ever, you conceive Him to be.

Ralph Waldo Emerson to Henry David Thoreau when
Thoreau was in jail for refusing to pay a poll tax:

Emerson: Henry, what are you doing in there?

Thoreau: Ralph, what are you doing out there?

"slave," as in slave mentality. my background is Catholic, so maybe that has something to do with my attitude.

we are supposed to get on our knees and "worship" at an alter created by a "church" -- not the god we intend to honor. we are to beg forgiveness from men who have no account for their sins (they will take our message to god for us). we are to give our money to the church, i suppose so they can forward it to god.

we are supposed to be good little sheep and not question anything. we are supposed to remember our fallen nature (especially us women who are responsible for original sin). we are to do what we are told. period.

where's the church that gives our power back to us? oh yeah, that was Latin American Catholicism circa 1979 -- and look what happened there.

a church asking you to support a war is like a physician asking you to support tobacco companies. i9t makes no sense unless you dig into what's behind the request. pray, pay and obey. be a good little sheep and question not your shepherd.

this "training" does not serve the interest of the congregation -- it serves the interest of those in power and i can't imagine that that's the way god would have it.

It's just on the back-burner.

beginning:

"History in fact shows that the recruitment of terrorists is more easily achieved in areas where human rights are trampled upon and where injustice is a part of daily life,.." John Paul

http://www.ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives/092002/092002f.htm

Fair disclosure: I'm a liberal Catholic ( yes, there are alot of us )

The sad fact of the matter, is that in the south where I live - most prostestant denominations with the
possible exceptions of the Lutherans & Episcopalians are enthusiastically -
not only (pro-soldier) but openly (pro-crusading).

I wonder if they will (can) respond. If they do, share it with us please.

I'll be curious to know if you ever get a response. :patriot:

Recently we had a retired Marine colonel preach a local (probably fundie, judging by its denomination) church one Sunday, and he actually had the nerve to say that killing can actually be an act of love! No, I am not making this up. Had I been there that day, I would have gotten up and walked out, never to return. This is exactly what I abandoned fundamentalism years ago. I'm now just a garden-variety Methodist. Anyway, since when has Jesus been about war? :wtf:

It seems to me that you have acted on Jesus's words with sincerity, love, faith, and hope.

You give Christianity a good name. Thank you for speaking out in this way, and thank you for posting this here.

Well said, Lenore.....

:applause:

RL

Too many churches have been turned into political machines for the RNC. Please read Dr. Barry Lynn's "Piety and Politics."

I heavily researched a church three or four years ago. I found the churches for me.

I think that you might want to check out the United Church of Christ, in which Barry Lynn, the executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, is an ordained minister ( www.au.org ).

So, check out: http://www.ucc.org/ .

I'm a Unitarian-Universalist .... www.uua.org . We welcome all, and honor all spiritual paths, including Paganism, secular humanism, etc. Atheists and agnostics are welcome, as are liberal/progressive Christians.

I also enjoy exploring the metaphysical/new-thought/mystic philosophies that were derived from Emerson, Thoreau, Troward, etc.. So, I take new-thought classes at the Church of Relgiious Science ( www.religiouscience.org ).

Also, Unity is a mystical/metaphysical/new-thought version of Christianity. Google "Unity."


There are SO many progressively-minded spiritual organizations out there - stop contributing to one that is not welcoming and affirming (please)! Thanks for just considering the alternatives.

I have done extensive research on the religious right the last five years - and there has been a major effort since the days Paul Weyrich and his friends put certain plans in place (late 70's, early 80's) to change many churches into extremely conservative defacto political entities. The Southern Baptists and the Assemblies of God were successfully targeted.

I will print this out and use it as a reference if I have to argue about the war with the right religious!

I am so impressed about you taking the stand! I did not have the guts to do that and to leave my (catholic) church. I am also tired hearing mostly prayers for our solders at Sunday mess! What about the nurses and doctors in the Veteran hospitals or in Bagdad? What about the Iraki civilians? The double moral of some church goers and leaders is very disappointing to me. Strong stand against stem cell research (which I can respect), but killing civilians under the seal of war against terrorism is blessed?

Kick!!!!

You are 1000% right in what you did, Jesus stood up for peace not for WAR!!!

I'm dealing with the same thing in my church, every week they say a prayer for George and Arnold, at first it really bothered me but after a while I realized it was my time to ask in a prayer for them do DO THE RIGHT THINGS, which they are not doing and thats why I can pray for them.

If he is smart he should read to the congrgation, everyone needs to hear those thoughts, thank you.

You and your family did more for the cause Jesus died for than all the phonies who profess his name.

Believe me, the congregation will now have to search their hearts regardless of what is preached to them. Your actions spoke louder than words.

And I thank you because our small acts are what change hearts and minds.

Thank you for sharing that letter with us.

I love to sing in the choir, I miss my church, but the church I miss does not, and perhaps did not exist.

You have my respect and my sympathy.

Thanks for sharing.

Kicked and recommended

by educating yourself about. bridgit posted about it back in April with some videos from Theocracy Watch.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=24500

Here are some more links about this dangerous group.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2005/11/25/161632/98

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2005/11/26/01436/229

http://www.theocracywatch.org/taking_over.htm

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2005/12/9/9645/47907

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2005/11/30/10554/198

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050418/pollitt

Backward Christian Soldiers: An Action Manual For Christian Reconstruction
by Gary North (I think the book dates back to the late 70's or early 80s, so this movement was born a long time ago)
(Promo for the book)
"Are you tired of sitting in the back of humanism's bus?
Jesus said to "Occupy till I come." But if Christians don't control the
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politics, and certainly in the mainline churches and seminaries. Today, the
humanists are "occupying." But they won't be for long. This book shows why.
For the first time in over a century. Christians are beginning to proclaim a
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this book is all about: a strategy for victory.
Satan may be alive on planet earth, but he's not well. He's in the biggest
trouble he's been in since Calvary. If Christians adopt a vision of victory and
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earth: the kingdom of God manifested in every area of life. When Christ returns,
Christians will be occupying, not hiding in the shadows, not sitting in the back
of humanism's bus.
This book shows where to begin...."
http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/gnbc/gnbc.html

From www.ReligiousTolerance.org:
Its most common form, Dominionism, represents one of the most extreme forms of
Fundamentalist Christianity thought. Its followers, called Dominionists, are
attempting to peacefully convert the laws of United States so that they match
those of the Hebrew Scriptures. They intend to achieve this by using the freedom
of religion in the US to train a generation of children in private Christian
religious schools. Later, their graduates will be charged with the
responsibility of creating a new Bible-based political, religious and social
order. One of the first tasks of this order will be to eliminate religious
choice and freedom. Their eventual goal is to achieve the "Kingdom of God" in
which much of the world is converted to Christianity. They feel that the power
of God's word will bring about this conversion. No armed force or insurrection
will be needed; in fact, they believe that there will be little opposition to their plan.
People will willingly accept it. All that needs to be done is to properly explain it to them.

All religious organizations, congregations etc. other than strictly
Fundamentalist Christianity would be suppressed. Nonconforming Evangelical, main
line and liberal Christian religious institutions would no longer be allowed to
hold services, organize, proselytize, etc. Society would revert to the laws and
punishments of the Hebrew Scriptures. Any person who advocated or practiced
other religious beliefs outside of their home would be tried for idolatry and
executed. Blasphemy, adultery and homosexual behavior would be criminalized;
those found guilty would also be executed. At that time that this essay was
originally written, this was the only religious movement in North America of
which we were aware which advocates genocide for followers of minority religions
and non-conforming members of their own religion. Since then, we have learned of
two conservative Christian pastors in Texas who have advocated the execution of
all Wiccans. Ralph Reed, the executive director of the conservative public policy group
the Christian Coalition, has criticized Reconstructionism as "an authoritarian ideology
that threatens the most basic civil liberties of a free and democratic society."

Leading writers in the movement are:

Greg L. Bahnsen of the Southern California Center for Christian Studies.

David Chilton. He adopted hyper-preterism, (a.k.a. full or complete perterism) a particular belief about end time events. He
was basically ostracized from the Christian Reconstruction camp afterwards.

Gary DeMar.

Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.

Gary North of the Institute for Christian Economics. He is a prolific author.

Larry Pratt: head of the Gun Owners of America and English First, a group opposed to non-English speaking immigrants and
bilingual education. Author of "Armed People Victorious" which documents Guatemalan and Philippine militias and para-military
death squads. He was campaign co-chair of the Buchanan presidential campaign in 1996.

John Quade.

Rousas John Rushdoony of the Chalcedon Foundation is often considered the founder of Christian Reconstructionism. Author
of Institutes of Biblical Law.

Rev. Andrew Sandlin.


<snip> To read more... http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm


You probably need an afternoon to read all this, but it is definitely worth it.
Also, have you seen Jesus Camp? It is a documentary about a camp where these young children are trained for the "Army of God". The brainwashing and TRAUMA that these people do in the name of God is just nauseating. These are dangerous people.

Thanks for a beautiful post! O8)