What do you guys think about air shows and showing off war planes?

I felt kinda bad for a woman on Saturday here in California.

Long story short:

I went (along with 50,000-plus others) to see the Thunderbirds and the usual acrobatics of other planes.

All very traditional.

But at the train stop on the way, there was a lone female protester with a paper sign that read something like "war planes kill people."

She was overwhelmingly ignored.

**One one hand** -- I felt really proud of her, because I'm sure she did what she did because of Iraq and a possible war in Iran.

**On the other hand** -- I feel these F-16's (that the Thunderbirds fly) and the other planes are only bad when they're used recklessly by reckless presidents like the current idiot in the White House to kill the wrong people.

I supported what Bill Clinton did in Kosovo, and to be honest, I wouldn't be opposed to them being used in Darfur to help those poor people.

I'm being honest.

They protect and help keep our country free from invaders; and they're invaluable for major, legitimate conflicts like world wars.

So while I sympathize with and applaud this lone woman for taking a stand in what she believes (she must be a wonderful Progressive Democrat! Yay!! :bounce:), I don't think there's anything wrong with people going to an air show to have some fun.

Don't you??

And I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. I admit that I think war planes are really cool. I don't like what they do but I am fascinated by them.

was a wonderful time!

...so

and all pilots know the dangers of flying.

the show when one of the stealth fighters from the show flew overhead.

My husband was mesmerized, and it is a stunning aircraft.

However, it was flying low enough that the cargo doors underneath, from which a payload would be dropped, were clearly visible.

I had a moment imagining that I was seeing it, not as entertainment but as someone who was about to be on the receiving end of its delivery. Chilling. MKJ

and in spite of what the nice lady on channel 7 said about "being lucky" to have seen it, I felt sick to my stomach.

the scary one that drops nukes....http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=82

but there are much bigger and immoral wastes of resources for me to be concerned with than air shows.

And I support having a competent, well-equipped military. Now if only we could just have a competent, well-equipped electorate.

Unfortunately, its might is frequently abused by those in control

can't extrapolate and realize these shiny things are used to murder people and allow the plutocratic ruling caste to transfer TRILLIONS into their pockets.

opposed their use in WWII to help stop Hitler from taking over the world?

At any rate, I disagree with your point.

I just gave my opinion on airshows and warplanes. Additionally, prior to the Good War, the Marine Corpse used planes in close air support (pioneering the concept) to murder people in Central and South America.

To be honest, you're only pointing out only the negatives, when we could all be speaking German.

They would have sued for peace. The real reason the Third Reich lost was the Soviet Union. The contributions of US/British, French, Polish militaries et al were not the main reason for the defeat of Nazi germany.

The cold war and the current US imperalist adventures do not mean us taxpayers should be happy billions have been sunk into developing the F-22, the Osprey, or the new VTOL joint fighter. All 3 of those systems are not quantum leaps beyond current technology and will not be demonstrably better than F-15s or helios. But, they keep guys like Duncan Hunter and Joe Lieberman in office and keep the US people stuck to the government tit.

Germany had Russia at the point of completely breaking. The ONLY thing that kept Russias government from being overthrown was the simple fact that German forces had to be diverted to strengthen the Western Front, and to try to hold Africa.

As a member of the United States Air Force, i'm going to tell you how full of crap your second comment is. The F-22 is leaps about bounds beyond the capabilities of our F-15's and F-16's. Not only that, but it surpasses the aircraft of our allies as well. It dominated at last years Red Flag exercise. Two F-22's have been responsible for dropping an entire squadron of F-15's before they where even seen in exercises. Even when your able to visually see the F-22, the targetting systems on our F-15's, can't find it. If our own Aircraft can't shoot it down, you can be damn sure our enemies can't.

As a person who has taken up the defense of your nations skies, I can tell you 100% that the F-22 is worth every penny we've put into it. It literally assures our dominance of the skies, and increases the chances of our pilots returning home safely by so many times it's truly wondrous. Are you willing to put the price on our pilots heads?

Better read more history.

The war in Russia didn't turn against Germany until late 1943. About several months after allied forces in Africa crushed the German forces, capturing 250,000 soldiers, and then pushed north into Italy.

The forces that Hitler had to divert to that front, kept him from reinforcing the Russian front, which allowed for things like Stanlingrad to happen. Had we not entered the war, saved the British efforts in Africa, and pushed into Italy, Hitler easily could have had half a million reinforcements push into Russia, and crushed the rest of the Red Army.

The German advances stalled in 1942, turned in winter 1942-43. By then Germany was defeated, the U.S. just sped up the inevitable.

Perhaps you are completely unaware of the Battle of Kursk (largest tank battle in history) and a decisive victory for Zhukov and the Soviets, which featured a million and half Red Army troops (after Stalingrad).

Your half a million reinforcement wouldn't have even made the ration between the Soviets and Nazis 1:1. and despite all the reams of paper wasted on the subject the average german soldier was not superior to the average US or Russian.

You really need to advance beyond the history they taught you in Air Force Boot camp and read.

How many Air Forces in the world can build a better fighter than the F15? Why would they?

Are you willing to put the price on our pilots heads? Thanks for the endangering the troops attack!

The F22 military worth is exactly zero dollars. But, it's thousands of votes and billions of dollars for members of the MIC.

And you really need to reread some history. The Soviets were fighting 600 divisions on the Eastern Front on D-Day. Stalingrad alone resulted in 800,000 killed, wounded and captured Germans. As well as, at least that many Soviets killed. How many divisions did Hitler send to Rommel to aid in holding Africa?

Thunderbirds, who fly an aircraft developed in the mid 1970's.

They also flew the U-2 during the air show....an aircraft that was used to detect missiles in Cuba.

It sounds like you feel we should dismantle our air force.

But fine, you're obviously entitled to your opinion.


on edit: spelling

Kept circling over my house near Folsom lake for about 45 minutes on Sunday. It was pretty odd to see that distinctive silhouette circling so low-and-slow for so long. It was kind of weirding me out until I remembered the air show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_plans_for_invasion_of_the_United_States_during_WWII

/devil's advocate

As a pilot, I appreciate the technology and everything.

It's just too bad that the military gets all the goodies.

It's really no different than watching non-combat planes fly, except these planes are much cooler and faster.

The idea of glorifying instruments of such random, mass murder is nauseating, even if they fly real fast and make real swell turns and stuff. These are nothing more than killing machines used against civilian populations that have never done us any harm, can't get away, and have no method of fighting back. The only "necessity" served by their production is to transfer massive amounts of our pooled tax dollars into the overstuffed pockets of merchants selling death and deprive our own citizens of health care, safe and well-maintained roads and schools, and the ability to bring those things to other countries.

The One Ring cannot be used for good, because it subverts and perverts even the most noble impulses and turns them toward evil.

being silly when you say, "These are nothing more than killing machines used against civilian populations that have never done us any harm, can't get away, and have no method of fighting back."

Of course we agree that using them in Iraq has led to the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

But IMO, you're completely disregarding the historical importance of these jets.

Why count the multi-billion dollar cost of fancy, shiny aeroplanes when they look so fuckin'-ay cool and were once used (or so we're told) in an honorable fashion? You never know when Cuba's going to develop the next generation of fighter jets, boy, and then we'd all be sorry.

Don't know why I'm so silly.

:sarcasm:

I'm talking about watching the Thunderbirds, who fly an aircraft that has been around since the mid 1970's.

I already mentioned in my OP that I am opposed to our military aircraft being used in a reckless manner.

Then I get called "silly" and am subjected to "sarcastic" comments about how you choose to spend your money and what sort of "entertainment" you find so engrossing. I wonder why you're so defensive, or why the cost and real purpose of those death machines you're so enamored of is such a touchy subject for you, and why one person's anonymous disapproval makes such a difference?

Silly, silly me. I'll go away now.

I've enjoyed all of the races, and most of the displays. I've seen the thunderbirds and the blue angels and enjoyed them. The only thing I don't enjoy is the inevitable airshow pilot who must do his/her routine to the execrable "proud to be an american," which makes me :puke:.

Yaas, there was an outfit of WW II planes operating out of a museum in Texas that was named for many years "The Confederate Air Force."

It took those years before it started sinking in that that name was offensive. Finally, they changed the name and relocated, the relocation not necessarily connected.

Even the support staff. That's kind of what the military is.

It would be nice to live in a world where we didn't need a military. But that isn't reality.

As long as taxpayers are footing the bill, I think they should be allowed as open a military as possible to see what they're paying for.

Besides, military planes, ships, etc. are interesting to look at. I especially like to see the old WW2 war birds flying around or parked at a show or museum (even though everybody knows their job was to drop bombs and shoot bullets). It's seeing living history.

but what irks me more is the Military Channel, one of the cable channels that's part of the Discovery Channel family of networks, I believe. War, war, war...bombs, missiles, bombs - glorified and celebrated 24/7. And yet we find showing a naked human body on television horrific and obscene. (I guess wiping out thousands of people with bombs isn't obscene?)
Warped psychology.

It used to fill me with a sense of pride knowing that such amazing machines could be used to defend us against an attack from a foreign enemy. So fast, graceful, and powerful. But I've put childish things behind me now, and sadly I see, that we use these amazing machines to kill with impunity. We use them to viciously murder civilians of foreign lands who had nothing to do with attacking us or our country for that matter. The child in me still looks to the sky in awe at what mankind can achieve. I hold his hand and shed a tear for what mankind can and has destroyed.

If we are to say these inanimate things "kill" at all.

I find the air shows themselves to be a bit abhorrent. They are nothing but large open air recruiting tools for the military. In addition they are very wasteful of fuel, and spew needless pollution. It is also a propaganda tool to glorify the military and to implant a very authoratative, mindlessly patriotic mindset into the populace.

Our local annual airshow is on Memorial Day weekend, and includes a number of very old military planes, WWII vintage and earlier. I've gone once for I love old machinery, but found the atmosphere at the show so over the top that I won't go again.

It's the second biggest air show in the country, second only to the show in Oshkosh. I love the old warbirds, antiques, home builts and ultra-lights. I rarely stay for the military show which puts on their display later in the day. It's so big it's hard to take it all in on one day.

I still make it every couple years, when I can borrow a plane to go. I like it better than OSH...more laid back. :-)

Show the "fun side" of military, get more recruits. I think that was the original purpose of the Blue Angels, and is still the purpose.

A few shows are used by manufacturers to sell airplanes, but those are mostly the big shows, like Paris, not the local shows.

I like them, but they are propaganda and fair game for protests.

I don't mind airshows per se, but these precision jets piss me off, as do shiny, noisy jingoistic power/penis displays.

What a waste of fuel too.

"don't mind airshows per se" yet don't like the aircraft associated with them

I mean, what would you like about an airshow, if there weren't any airplanes?

As for the waste of fuel, I've heard it's cheaper to fly than pay ad agencies and television stations/networks for recruitment spots.

point?

I'm trying to be serious.

...the Oral

If you mean the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels, they are awesome. They take my breath away.

They are amazing. Absolutely amazing.

I kind of wish our planes were relegated to air shows instead of bombing innocents.

We have every right to get a good look at what we've been paying for all these years.

When ginbarn and I were down in Corpus Christi a couple of months ago, we toured the USS Lexington as well. Couldn't tour the entire thing in one day, which just gives us more incentive to go back and pay it another visit. Yes, the guns and planes on this ship were used to kill people, we know that. But there is a lot of history bound to the Lexington, a lot of personal sacrifice, etc.

The planes themselves were impressive, but the American military announcer was horrifying. He kept going on and on about the armaments and kept talking about "Maximum Lethality!" with a hyper-amplified swagger in his voice. It might have gone over well in Texas, but for a Canadian civilian audience it was a breathtaking display of tone-deaf cultural insensitivity. My partner and I were revolted to the extent that we haven't been back to an airshow since. And I am an airplane fanatic, as you can probably guess from my handle.

Bush lied us into Iraq and I wish now he'd lie us out of there. Look at the fuel we'd save then.

(something about gape-mouthed Yahoos and buzzcut Alabamians)

Hey!!

Same thing with ships, I was at the waterfront last Thursday here in Portland Oregon
to watch 3Destroyers dock for the Rose Festival.
There were 5 women who held peace signs, one held a 'Warships not welcome' sign, which
I didnt think was appropriate, but thought it was her right to have that sign.
There was an older man who almost took the sign from her hands and threw it into the river,
I scolded him for that action.
A right wing woman looked at them and commented "Why dont you people leave, dont you
remember Sept 11th" That did it for me, I went over to her and lit into her, I am so
tired of hearing about Sept 11th, I raised my voice to her and told her to Shut the F up
and a few other choice words, I told her to investigate Sept 11th and really see what happened,
and it is not an excuse for an illegal invasion of Iraq, I was pissed. She didnt talk for the next
hour!!!


Yes we do need a strong defense and military, its how we use it is the key.
I was in the Air Force and was proud to serve my Country.
The military has been forced into Iraq by this rogue administration, that is what
these protesters are mad about. :hi:

that "is the key."

:hi:

I feel that a military is necessary and, therefore, we should have good, state of the art one. Now, that doesn't mean we need to spend as much as we currently do, nor use our military in situations like Iraq. However, unless you are so far left you want the entire military disbanded, you have to be impressed with the planes and pilots.

Well said.

Used to live next door to an Air Force Base, so I saw some shows free. But I also attended a few. (Hey, before that, I lived next door to another Air base--it's hard to forget the sight & the sound of a B-36.)

A few years ago, a show from Austria's Graz armoury appeared at our Museum of Fine Arts. I checked for a link. Too long ago--but "Arms & Armor from the Ancient World" is coming next month!

From Robinson Jeffers:

What but the wolf's tooth chiseled so fine
The fleet limbs of the antelope?
What but fear winged the birds and hunger
Gemmed with such eyes the great goshawk's head?
Violence has been the sire of all the world's values.

Who would remember Helen's face
Lacking the terrible halo of spears?
Who formed Christ but Herod and Caesar,
The cruel and bloody victories of Caesar?
Violence has been the sire of all the world's values.

Never weep, let them play,
Old violence is not too old to beget new values.

www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/webstuff/poetry/Jeffers-TheBloodySir.html

When they are here in South Florida, it means shore leave for service members, so I'm happy they get some.

I can also see her point. It takes real courage for her to stand up like that.

This is not directed at you personally. I'm just laughing at how funny DU can be. Just within the last month or two (or three) the consensus on DU was that NASCAR should be outlawed because of the waste of energy for pointless entertainment and now we have mostly "enjoy it" regarding airshows.

BTW - I like both (nascar and airshows) :)

:eyes:

It's like throwing a party because you shot a burglar in the head. Or going outside a prison to celebrate an execution. IOW, sick.

I don't go watch the Thunderbirds or the Blue Angels because they fly aircraft that kill.

I go because the show is fun to watch.

And I feel one can do so with a clean conscious.

I already said I oppose the reckless use of the F-16 and other planes.

Just the very idea that this promotes murder is enough for me to be against it . To fully realize just what these jets are for and the selling of murder is what I would hope people would for once realize and just maybe wars would not be a popular or rather acceptable concept .

..... a minor airport northeast of Baltimore. All the planes were privately owned .... no military involvement at all. That said, there was an F-18 as the most modern thing there and then a lot of Korea and WWII planes.

It was incredible to sit on the grass within 10 feet of the runway when BEASTS like this P52 Mustang, owned and flown by Bob Tullius (of car racing fame), did touch and goes. At full throat, the sound of the plane literally shook your innards. It was as visceral a spectator event as anyone can imagine.



Watching that hornet go ballistic and vertical after a touch and go kept the resonance of the jet blast assaulting your senses for an incredibly long time.

They aren't joined at the hip. I love motion but if you militarize that motion, you lose me.

:shrug:

I particularly enjoy the vintage WWII aircraft, but the new ones are pretty cool too.

They are used to murder people, however "cool" they look. The biggest problem today is that Americans have learned to seperate the instruments of war from the effects of war. That's part of the point of these shows. We can ooo & aahh over the cool planes at the show, so later we can ooo & aah over the cool bombings during "shock & awe." "War planes kill people." Yes, they do. Thanks for reminding Americans.

right wingers and so called Dems like Joe Lie-berman?

I know I didn't....it made me sick.

Yes, war planes kill people, but just so do the pistols law enforcement officers wear.

You're being fundamentally dishonest if you say there's no legitimate use for an air force.

They promoted it like the Super- Bowl halftime show, complete w/a countdown clock. People got popcorn & chips for the primetime event. It was bigger than American Idol! Ratings reached new highs. Of course most Americans oohed & ahhed over the cool explosions. That's exactly the reaction they wanted to create; exactly the reaction these types of shows are meant to inspire. Pay no attention to where the bombs are landing, just enjoy the show.

bombing of Iraq?!?

"...most Americans oohed and ahhed over the cool explosions."

:wtf:

Where do you get all of these figures?

Yes, most Americans did support the initial invasion - and support it or not, most watched the "shock & awe" bombing campaign as the media wanted. What's disengenious is posting this as if it were an honest discussion when the real intent was to argue w/anyone who doesn't like air shows. Sorry if you feel guilty about liking air shows, but you won't get over the guilt by demeaning people who disagree, or bringing up World War 2, or any of the other dodges to rationalize feeling awe & wonder at these war planes. They're cool, and they kill people. Get used to the cognitive dissonance. And good for that lone protestor, who made thousands of spectators feel a moment of cognitive dissonance & discomfort.

any responsible data that shows a stunning 80 percent of Americans rooted on shock and awe.

That's ridiculous and unbelievable.

Furthermore, what is exactly "disengenious" (sic) about posting this topic?

I don't have a problem with people who don't like air shows.

It was a totally fair discussion and as civil a thread as they get at DU, with not a single deletion.

Sorry,

Any point you tried to make was lost due to your embellishment.

Here's what happened about 3 miles from me last year:

they are spectacular.

I'd hate like hell to see it happen. I wonder if it's all just a bit too risky for a little entertainment.

especially since we are in the midst of climate change.

And by the many posts on this thread, it is clear to me that some people don't care about our planet. They'd rather get their thrills by watching (and hearing those loud fucking jets).

They serve no purpose other than to show off nationalism.

I live in Chicago and have a great roof top deck with skyline views. We are about 2 miles from the lake, but we get a lot of "action" during the Chicago Air and Water show. The last two years I've really thought more about it and how these are just killing machines put on display. However, it is entertainment and it is pretty cool to watch.

I think as long as you know what these machines are really about, you can still watch and have a good time.

I need to think more about this.

I think two opposed things.

On the one hand, I hate war toys and I hate glorifying them.

On the other hand, I went and saw the Blue Angels once, when our big base was still open in Austin and I wasn't the only hippie there...<g>...and it was AWESOME.

So I usually end up getting in a slugfest with myself over these kinds of things.

Lee

those planes and end poverty in the world.

by killing poor people. Now that's Direct Action!

I mean, people keep talking about this or that plane killing civilians. I don't think F-16's are designed for ground strikes; they're designed for dogfighting. I suppose civilians have been killed from the falling wreckage of a plane an F-16 shot down, but other than that...

Designed for air-to-air and air-to-ground (including CAS) engagements.

The fielding of precision munitions such as the JDAM, JSOW, or SDB allow this fast mover to bring air support very close to US ground troops in a CAS role.

All I knew is they were a lot higher and a lot faster than I was..

I'm an artilleryman and I cut my teeth as a Forward Observer. I've called in F-16s on CAS missions, though the biggest problem with those airplanes in that role is the pilot's inability to accurately locate a target because he's moving too damned fast and usually has the wrong kind of map.

Usually, the TTP is to put illumination or WP on the target to locate it for the pilots...that's if they're loaded down with dumb bombs.

If they have the guided stuff, you can either put a laser on the target or give them a good 8- or 10-digit grid for their GPS-guided bombs.

I live near a base ball stadium and on their first home game there was a fly over. I ran to my window in awe of the fighter jets.

I can love air shows without loving war. :)

(the planes) and the pilots fearless acrobatics, its a testosterone thing I guess.

Opening day and for the playoffs. Quite awesome. You get an idea of how frightening it must be when those things come at you for real.

- that those war planes flying for entertainment purposes are not available to fly for war purposes. I would think that we should encourage more air shows instead of discouraging them!

fly are used for air show purposes only.

However, if they were really badly needed for combat, it takes less than 72 hours to re-paint
and load them with bombs and missiles.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/09/mil-040915-afpn01.htm

"those little rascals."


He goes to air shows all the time!

I remember seeing the Blue Angels as a kid, and I took my daughter to see "those little rascals," the Thunderbirds, last summer. We'll do so again this year.

The only part that depresses me about military aircraft these days is that Chimpy's in charge. That is the real travesty.

Horrible, excessive celebration of wasted tax dollars and insane national priorities. Bunch of militarist bastards looking on and drooling, kind of like those old shots of the Politburo watching like ancient lizards as the missiles and tanks rolled through Red Square.



How I feel emotionally:

HOLY FUCKING WOW!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!!! FUCKING GREAT!!!!! LISTEN TO THE AFTERBURNERS SCREEEEEEEEAM!!!!!!!!!




So, as you can see, I'm kind of conflicted.


wp

What Warren Pease said. :thumbsup:

I think I have just had to become ok with my hypocrisy in this matter.

But good on the protester. I'm all for standing up for your beliefs.

Nothing more than military machismo to impress the great unwashed. I know what arsenal and airpower the military has. I'm not impressed by the display of it.

ON EDIT. One more thought. I'm sure these airshows are one hell of a recruiting tool, too. Another reason why I don't like 'em.

I have nothing against historical interest or a strong national deterrent, but I question the flag-wavers who seem to confuse preemptive invasion with defense, or defense with liberty itself.

Heck, I even have some interest in such matters. I work close to an air base where there are occasional shows, and often visited an air base in Europe, though I have never actually attended a show.

I was at the show at Mather too (on Sunday). While the Thunderbirds were cool to watch, in actual NUMBERS the military contingent made up far less than half of the display. The rest was full of stunt pilots, wingwalkers, skydivers, and aerial comedy (my kids loved OttoCopter).

Most of the military displays were boring, simply because the military prohibits their pilots from doing anything risky. The Thunderbirds, the Blue Angels, and all of the other military display teams are generally just rehashing the same old stunts they've been doing for the past 30 years. Compared to pilots like that Russian world champion who did the awesome display, the military flyby's were weak. Shoot past, make a big boom, and keep on cruising.

To be honest, only two of the military shows were interesting at all...and one of those was the cargo plane (it's incredible how little runway is needed by such a huge plane, and how nimble it can be). I do have to admit that the F-22 was pretty fascinating too...I have never seen a jet that could turn like that without having vertical thrusters. It was impressive simply because it displayed how far aeronautical technology has come.

I really don't have a problem with the military in air shows though. We're always going to have a military, and the military is always going to have cool equipment to look at. I'd much rather have that equipment used to entertain than used to terrify and kill people.

What got MY attention at Mather were the Army guys performing security duties with loaded M-16's and grenade launchers. Last I checked, Mather is a civilian airfield now, and the air show was paid for privately without military funding. Under what authority were our soldiers and tax dollars used to guard the gates? Why were armed soldiers needed at an air show at all? If they were concerned about the static military aircraft displays, a soldier or two guarding each aircraft would have been one thing, but it honestly seemed like we were entering an active military base with the number of soldiers guarding the perimiter. Heck, they even had the Army guys DIRECTING TRAFFIC on the highway in front of the airfield. Last I checked, the military wasn't allowed to perform domestic law enforcement duties in this country. How was that show NOT a violation of Posse Comitatus?