Why did w's immigration bill piss off the repubs when nothing else did?

Why this issue, why now, after they've supported him in every atrocious treason and tyranny and piracy, why all of a sudden? Didn't they get pissed when bush failed to protect us on nine eleven, even when he was repeatedly and sternly warned? Didn't they get pissed at bush when went on vacation rather than tell us an attack was coming? Didn't they get pissed when 3000 people died because of it? Why didn't they get pissed about bush failing to get Osama after five fucking years?

NOW they get pissed? About the immigration bill? Why this? Why do they feel so betrayed finally?

What about all the dead soldiers, aren't they pissed about that? What about the total failure of his glorious war on Iraq, doesn't that tick them off a wee bit?

Remember when they talked about bush like he was Winston frikkin' Churchill or Abraham freakin' Lincoln? Just what is it about the immigration bill that's got them so pissed at the once infallible boy king? You can't mention bush's name in public now without some republican spitting on the ground and cursing, why? Why now? Why this issue?

ports in the US.

Lou Dobbs pointed it out to them real quick, "There are non-Anglos that are going to get something out of this deal, that's Un 'Merican!"

deal, as well. Of course, our reasons were purer than those of the RW and freepers.

that was sad.

Call me a dinosaur. A sad, sad dinosaur.

I think it's because xenophobia is a Republican campaign platform.

They won on fear of gay marriage in 2004. Fear of immigrants is a campaign plank for 2008.

the Pukes need "those people" to wipe their asses with, they have very little left.

Repugs don't mind when Corporate interests get special government handling, 'cause they're being told it will help them keep their jobs.

Apparently, self-enrichment to them takes a back seat to their racism. Whoda thunk it?

"Them wetback Mexicans vote Democrat!"

Yeah, it's a lie on a lot of levels, but their lies are very important to them.

It is odd - they trust Bush with unlimited power to protect them and do what is best for them so long as he is declaring war - why don't they think that this immigration bill must be the bestest thing ever for the country, too?

They have to have a class of citizen that they feel they are better than--AND they have to have an enemy.
Republicans hate any type of welfare...especially perceived welfare to those horrible Mexicans

isolationists at heart. They are pro-ethnic group, so to speak. All the talk about limiting gov't services for immigrants and "welfare queens" is really code for we white folks don't want to share our society (status, power) with any one who doesn't look like us.

Giving that, it's pretty predictable that there would be a isolationist vs business clash between interests of the two main groups in the GOP coalition.

The PNAC stuff, while vile and evil, was grafted onto this group. I'm amazed it lasted as long as it has.

"Why did w's immigration bill piss off the repubs when nothing else did"

As to that question, there will be a range of answers from racism and xenophobia to, and not limited to bush's base, it's just bad policy to add one more straw on the back of the already stressed American working class.

I see the other question and something I've been pondering considerably is "Why this issue, why now".

bushco had to know this was going to push buttons. We witnessed them being very adept at pushing the god, guns, gays buttons during election cycles. The reaction cannot come as any surprise to them.

Maybe I'm giving bushco too much credit but I cannot help wondering what is their real agenda here, as you asked, why this issue, why now?

Because Ted Kennedy, who has been pushing this issue vigorously, believes it is an issue that needs to be solved.

He also knows this issue can shred the GOP coalition.

Why now? Teddy.

From an essay I wrote last week:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/060707R.shtml

On the home front, the GOP is dealing with a potentially catastrophic rift within its coalition over how to deal with illegal immigration. The roots of this dilemma are found within the coalition's basic formulation.

On one side are the movement conservatives, the Evangelical activists, the anti-choice single-issue voters who can be depended on to vote en masse for any national Republican candidate who says the right things about fetuses and Jesus. These people amount to roughly 25 percent of the electorate that actually votes, making them the single most dependable voting bloc in Republican politics.

On the other side are the big-money GOP supporters, the captains of industry who write the campaign checks and generally, if anonymously, control most everything in the country. The movement conservatives get a lot of lip service from the GOP, but the check-writers are the most important constituency of the party.

Therein lies the problem. The current crop of right-wing GOP leaders owe their power to the straddle they've managed to maintain since the Reagan days; by keeping one foot firmly planted in both of these groups, the GOP has been able to exploit the movement base's dedicated activism (without actually doing much of anything to fulfill their desires) while making sure the big-money boys get pretty much whatever they ask for.

The movement faction hasn't quite realized the degree to which they are considered useful-idiot cannon fodder by GOP officeholders and the check-writing faction. Whenever the GOP needs to divide public sentiment or distract public attention, the movement people get deployed to scream about gay rights, the Ten Commandments, snowflake babies, or whatever happens to be available at the moment. By mouthing platitudes about these issues, the party fools the movement faction into thinking the party actually cares about them.

But now, there is this immigration debate, which threatens to rip the scales from the eyes of the movement faction. Battalions of GOP politicians have made careers out of spitting venom at illegal immigrants to gain support from the movement base. Simultaneously, however, those same politicians have been accepting gigantic campaign checks from the big-money faction, who absolutely depend on easy access to the dirt-cheap pool of slave labor availed to them by the existence of millions of undocumented immigrants within the US.

The problem for the GOP politicians, of course, is that their movement-faction constituents have bought into their demagoguery about illegal immigration to such a degree that, today, this issue is second only to abortion on their list of Hated Things. The issue has birthed a seething anger within the movement faction aimed at illegal immigrants in general, but now aimed also at any GOP politician who stands for anything besides mass deportations.

But there are all those checks to consider, right?

The money faction didn't spend all those precious ducats buying GOP politicians by the gross, only to have their pet politicos go and legislate that huge pool of cheap labor back across the border. This creates an unsolvable conundrum for the GOP. The movement faction wants border fences and draconian deportations, the money faction wants cheap labor to boost profits, and no conceivable legislative offering can untie this Gordian knot.

Satisfying one faction absolutely means betraying the other. If the GOP pushes for a hard-core immigration bill to satisfy the movement faction, the check-writers will be screwed and may retaliate harshly. If they choose to satisfy the money faction, the movement faction will quite literally detonate, and could decide to stay home when the '08 elections come around.

I never thought I'd live to see such a wrench in their gears, and I just wonder why nothing else the neo cons have done thus far has pissed them off.

That's why I referenced "Why now" question above.

Do you think they're planning on this bill failing, maybe what?......leaving Ted Kennedy or Harry Reid fingerprints all over the move?

If it gets to the House, the Repubs will be leading the charge to kill the bill. They seem to be worried in the House that the Senate may kill the bill and not give them the chance to do it.

It is true, though, that the big money Repubs will be happy if this bill dies. The illegal immigrants are not going anywhere and will continue to be easy to exploit given their status. The recent enforcement (half-hearted at best) and proposals for more funding for border enforcement are just sweeteners to win over conservatives and will be dropped like hot potatoes, if the bill dies.

is bogus since the language of the senate bill states repeatedly,
"subject to the availability of appropriations".

It will be dropped if the bill were to pass as well since the funding for enforcement is keyed to the fees immigrant candidates are supposed to pay and that ain't gonna happen.

Same reason marijuana is illegal, there's much more money in it being illegal.

Guest workers, or temporary slaves, are what's holding up our economy.

Same reason marijuana is illegal, there's much more money in it being illegal.

Guest workers, or temporary slaves, are what's holding up our economy.

Ever since 1980, the Republicans have won by rallying people around their most base instincts. They (the moneyed interests which profit from cheap labor) couldn't win without some kind of head fake toward populism. Unfortunately for us all, the brand of populism which they used was not economic but social. This social populism carries names like "welfare queen" and "Willy Horton". What did Rosalynn Carter say? "Reagan has made us comfortable with our bigotry"?

People suck. We can't change that. What we can do is get back to our economic populist roots. Change the topic. With regard to amnesty, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Amnesty was a stupid issue to finally stick our democratic flag into.

illegally or to return home, either voluntarily or by force.

A mass voluntary migration back home would require that conditions were better there than in the US. That would entail a tremendous improvement in the Mexican economy or the immigrants' situation here getting really, really bad. Many have children who are American citizens who only know life here. If their jobs here disappeared that would do it, but I don't see an administration in the past, present or future, or a congress for that matter, that will make such hardship happen.

A forced deportation of that many immigrants is impossible for political, financial, and humanitarian reasons. Political: It's the liberals like Kennedy who are pushing "legalization", Bush could easily live without it. Democrats never have and never will crack down on Hispanic immigrants. Republicans might, but the big money in their party keeps that from happening. Financial: Who knows how much such a massive undertaking would cost? I suppose you could get the Army and National Guard back from Iraq and have them round up every Hispanic and make them prove they are legal. (Like progressives would ever actually support such a forced deportation in the first place.) Humanitarian: Forcing 12 million poor people to return to a Third World country might seem a little cold hearted.

I support Kennedy. "Amnesty" (to use the loaded term) is the best of the alternatives.

It would require "the immigrants' situation here getting really, really bad. Many have children who are American citizens who only know life here. If their jobs here disappeared that would do it, but I don't see an administration in the past, present or future, or a congress for that matter, that will make such hardship happen."

I just don't see any American politician (certainly no Democrats - they are the ones in the Senate pushing legalization) who would pursue that kind of hardship on that many people, many of whom have American children. Republicans (at least the corporate ones) want the cheap labor. Democrats who successfully appeal to Hispanic voters could not stand the pressure of millions of poor Hispanics walking back to the country they ran away from.

They had to stir up latent xenophobia to be effective.

I'm not suggesting that I agree with their tactics when I say I agree with the view that 12 million illegals in our workforce is a problem for legal workers, and that unregulated immigration aggravates it.

Your best bet for getting rid of the illegal immigrants would be the election of a Repub who felt more beholden to the RW freeper base than to the big money corporations. That is one scenario, though I don't think it is likely, in which I could see employer sanctions being enforces seriously enough to generate a large scale voluntary return to Mexico. For it to be voluntary though I think conditions for them here will have to deteriorate for a good while, before they are convinced that it better to return to the country which they gave up on. It would be interesting to see how DU would react to this scenario if it came to pass.

I hate to see this become a struggle between "the RW freeper base" and progressives. Progressives should be the ones fighting for economic justice for american workers.

with war, dead soldiers and all that boring idealogical crap.
The one, only, pure, simple reason that right wingers get pissed off is, it is not in their own self interest.

You can wax as progressively and unhypocritically as you like. There is only one thing that scares the masses and that is the fear of someone else getting what they think is their right. Therefore it is pointless to ask for comparisons between dead soldiers, general injustice or anything else. I doubt it true xenophobia (and ain't that just become the buzzword of the century) even enters into it. It is so simple its idiotic. Someone may take what they consider theirs.

And sadly, this is not limited to right-wingers. There's a fair share of self-professed leftists who exhibit this primeval sense of what they consider self protection. And I'll tell you something else, you can't change it. There is no way on earth that you can make self-centred/interested people take a wider view of the world and people and come over to the good side. Sorry, but thats how it is.

didn't mean to, but may have come across perhaps more strongly than it would have sounded if we were chewing over this in a bar. I guess thats the limitation of the medium.

A question for you; do you ever think of your nation as a downtrodden people? Oh I know, land of the free and brave or whatever, but in world terms, you guys are starting to be pitied. The shit you put up with! No-fly lists, cops handing out death by taser, health care (in case you hadn't guessed, Ive seen Sicko)detention, torture. Man, why the fuck are you people putting up with it?

Worse still, when a ferengi like myself suggests that you may be badly treated, I've seen proud dems actually stand up and defend the vile set of conditions you guys are forced to live under. Oh, I dunno.....any country with guts and a sense of self worth that was not misplaced would have moved their arses off the computer chairs and taken en masse to the streets.

Ok, lol, now I'll apologise :)

I got nothin' here.

where Mike talks to Tony Benn, an old lefty Brit politician. Can't remember his exact words, but he spoke of fearful people being unable to fight back.

Fearful, intimidated, cowed, broked, yet ready to defend the American way of life against anyone who dares criticise. I'm smelling a self-help book.

There's also a couple of horribly expensive and unsafe places that have good weather, too.

Other than that, I dunno. Why the fuck to we put up with it?

and the beat goes on.

The repubs would have plenty to be mad about besides a few immigrant workers.

They've been unhappy with him for some time- even they
can't pretend that the country is in good shape anymore,
or that anything B*sh has done is making things better...

But they aren't the type of people who ever admit that
they were WRONG about anything, so they had to continue
acting as though they still supported the OLD crap.

This issue is NEW crap, so they can seize it as a vessel
for their disapproval of the Chimperor without having
to admit they were ever WRONG in the past.