Isn't it past time for professional wrestling to be regulated?

On the heels of Chris Benoit's horrific crime and the taking of his own life I've been thinking about the industry as a whole. I've been a fan since I was 12. Off and on over the years I've followed the careers of those wrestlers I liked the most. Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan (in his prime), Andre the Giant and many others.

It's common knowledge that there is widespread usage of steroids in the industry whether it's a small circuit to a large one like the WWE. Promoters such as Vince McMahan and others have used their wrestlers until there was nothing left of their bodies left to give or when they were no longer the hot prospects. These guys undergo numerous injuries and some wrestlers have been permanently sidelined because of either carelessness or attempting some stunt.

When you look at the last five years or so there are some pretty wild and horrific stories. In order to give a good show promoters push wrestlers hard to give the audience those death defying stunts. One of those killed Owen Hart during a pay-per-view. That's not to mention the bigger you are, the better. Vince McMahon is well known for his desire to have big bulky guys for his main events. That brings in the steroid abuse. Steiner is a prime example of steroid abuse gone wild. Maybe I go too far in believing that most pro wrestlers do abuse steroids.

Eddie Guerrero, Curt Henning, Davy Boy Smith and others have died and their deaths were directly linked to steroid abuse.

No one knows if steroids played a factor in what Chris Benoit did. We probably will find out in the next week or two. Steroids can cause paranoia, depression and explosive outbursts known as 'roid rage. Chris' wife, Nancy, filed for divorce and cited his cruelty as a reason. She also had a restraining order filed against him at one point because of his violence. They found anabolic steroids in Benoit's home.

I know professional wrestling isn't in the same league as pro baseball or football. It's considered sports entertainment. But the lack of regulation over this industry that's ripe with corruption and exploitation is intolerable, IMO. Baseball and football don't have the same kind of history and considering how professional wrestling can influence the youth of this country I think greater scrutiny is needed. Mandatory drug testing seems to be in order.

Am I out of line about this? Should professional wrestling be treated differently because it's not considered a legitimate sport? Should there not be any oversight?

It's just dumb fake theatre for the masses. It's less of a sport than darts or snooker. I doubt that it could be regulated per se, unless someone wants to regulate local Shakespeare companies.

or leaping off the top turnbuckle like wrestlers. Not the same thing at all.

Wrestling may be choreographed, but it's still an athletic endeavor.

People have died performing wrestling stunts - broken their necks/ribs/legs/arms.

Darts is one of the few games that actually gives players deadly weapons.

But then again...what the hell have professional football/professional baseball done about steriod (or any drug) use or abuse? Not a whole hell of a lot!

Pro-wrestling doesn't. Those sports don't have the statistics that wrestling does when it comes to steroid related deaths.

And yet how many pro football and pro baseball players have been fired for steroid abuse?

I'm a big Braves fan and have no doubt whatsoever that at least 5 current starters are juicing. All you have to do is look at them now and look at them when they first started in baseball.

:sarcasm:

yes, it is all coreographed. But the wrestlers still have to perform the stunts. The still need to be in shape and they still risk being injured. And (obviously) many of them take pain killer and steriods in order to perform better or sooner than they should. Not unlike a sport.

So does movie stunt work. Or ditch digging. Or operating a rickshaw. You need to be in shape to do that kind of work, too.

There's no "contest" involved, which is why I don't think any sports or athletic agencies should touch it with a forty foot pole.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for those guys, either. I think it's idiotic, the entire theatre of it, and the fact that grown humans would dress up in those foolish costumes and behave like ninnies for the enjoyment of people hooting from their seats. The only thing more idiotic than participating in it is paying money to see it. And I have a few young relatives who like it, and I just cannot understand why.

Then again, I don't 'get' soap operas, either--crappy acting, be it on a small screen or in a ring, is crappy acting. Life is too short to endure it!

I don't get this attempt to compare professional wrestlers with bricklayers. That's apples and oranges. These guys have to be trained very well in order not to cause injury to whoever is in the ring with them.

to great height and avoid dropping them on people working below you.

It's not apples and oranges. There are lots of jobs that require that people take care in what they're doing so they don't injure their coworkers. It's not magic, and clearly, those wrestlers aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree, so it can't be THAT hard to learn the tricks of the trade. Those bouncing floors on the wrestling rings absorb no small amount of the 'shock' when they hurl themselves at each other, too.

It's certainly not unliike circus work, though it's nowhere near as interesting. For example, if you're an acrobat, you've got to toss your partner in the air AND catch them on your feet or what-have-you. If you're a trapeze artist, you can't miss when you're grabbing that person flying at you without a net.

It's not a "profession." It's what people do to make some money, and they keep doing it because it is lucrative, and beats having a regular job that has some benefit to society.

http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/minis/mini/wrestlingmini/wrestlingmini1.html

The first thing you need to understand about wrestling is that it's fake. We hope we're not ruining anyone's fun here, but those pro wrestlers are all just a bunch of big actors. What we mean by "fake" is that the outcome of each match is predetermined, the wrestlers cooperate with each other rather than compete, and the wrestlers are acting out characters, not their real personalities. Both the behind-the-scenes action and in-the-ring action are planned out and written ahead of time (though the wrestlers do some improvising of their own), and the wrestlers develop the characters they portray with the help of writers and executives. To make everything more interesting, however, the characters the wrestlers portray are constantly involved in elaborate storylines (backstories that involve feuds and personal vendettas).

Kay Fabe is the label used when talking about the secret that wrestling is fake (note that this is also sometimes spelled "kayfabe"). Of course, this is not a secret to anyone older than four years of age, but the wrestlers and promoters still talk about it as if it were real. This is because they are keeping Kay Fabe, the myth around the wrestling business, alive. Keeping Kay Fabe also requires that the secrets of the business be kept from the public. To break Kay Fabe means to reveal the fact that the wrestling business is scripted and fake. You won't hear this term on a wrestling TV show, but you could hear it in a conversation with other wrestling fans or read it in a magazine or web site about wrestling.

More on this topic here: http://www.answers.com/topic/kayfabe

I am unimpressed by wrestlers. They're fourth tier entertainers, at best.

suspect they do too. Do stuntmen have to work 250 days a year?

Wrestlers need a union.

And 250 days a year averages out to a five day work week, with a week and a half of vacation. It ain't brilliant, but there are a load of people in the US who don't get ANY vacation from their lousy jobs, and who work longer hours and more days for way less money, too.

I have no sympathy for these wrestling people. If they fuck themselves up, it's their own damned fault. No one's enslaving them and forcing them to participate in those foolish charades. They do it because they want the money.
-------------------

Fifty two Saturdays, fifty two Sundays=104 days.

365 days-104 days=261 days.

261-250=11 days.

aren't even that good as a rule, unless you work that kind of schedule. Many wrestlers do it because they love the business, as crappy as it is. They need a union; they need representation and collective bargaining power.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

If they love the business, it can't be that bad, can it? I rather doubt the paydays are that horrible, otherwise it wouldn't be such a thriving enterprise. And who's stopping them from forming a labor union, or doing the logical thing and joining Actor's Equity, because that's what they are--actors. Bad ones, but actors nonetheless.

A blurb about salaries:

Considering the cyclical nature of wrestling, average pro wrestling salaries vary greatly depending on revenue and how well the business is doing at any particular moment. Currently, in the WWE, lower card performers earn upwards of $90,000 and the top stars around $750,000 base. (Base pay was introduced in the mid 1990's in WCW as a way to keep wrestlers loyal and for them not to jump to another organization. Before that pro wrestlers had no base pay and basically were paid for performance.) However, if merchandise and pay per view bonuses are figured in, pay can get into the millions. Triple H and John Cena were the highest earners in the WWE in 2005 each making just over $2,000,000. Superstars such as Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Batista, Kurt Angle and The Big Show also made seven figure salaries as well with wrestlers such as Edge (Adam Copeland), Rey Mysterio, John Bradshaw Layfield and Kane making close to a million per year (including bonuses). Wrestlers in the $500 to $750k range include Ric Flair and Booker T. Stone Cold Steve Austin made over $6,000,000/yr in the heyday of the WWE between 1998 and 2002, as did Hulk Hogan in the late 1980's. Hogan is said to have accumulated close to $60 million in his over 20 yrs of wrestling full time (and still occasionally wrestles once to twice a yr in which he takes home about $500,000 per match). The Rock made anywhere between $3 to 5 million per year during his most popular years and Mick Foley pulling in close to $3 million in the late 90's to early 2000's. Top stars also get perferable treatment such as first class airfare, hotel, and car all paid for (superstars to get this kind of treatment include Triple H, Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Kurt Angle and John Cena). In the case of John Bradshaw Layfield he also gets a limo and a five star hotel paid for (due also in part to make his character more believeable), and Triple H gets use of WWE's personal private jet several times a year (notably Triple H is also the son-in-law to WWE owner Vince McMahon). Some superstars may only get first class tickets but not their hotel or car paid for (stars such as Edge and Rey Mysterio). But all professional wrestlers, regardless of their status on the roster, get airfare paid for and free food with catering at all WWE events. At major events such as Wrestlemania and Summerslam all wrestlers get hotel, car and food paid for.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pro-Wrestling-1847/wrestling-25.htm

Awww, pity the poor wrestlers...give me a break.

I can't compare SPORT with this shit. Sorry. Hockey, baseball and football players don't get together ahead of the game and decide who will do what, when, and choreograph the festivities. They actually COMPETE. Also, wrestlers don't do their thing for the sustained period of time that these actual atheletes do--they get in the ring, throw each other around, a winner or loser is designated, and then another bunch of steroid-pumped nitwits comes on and does the same thing.

If they want to fuck up their bodies with steroids and engage in that behavior for their payday, fine, no one is stopping them. But don't expect me to cheerlead such rank stupidity. They don't HAVE to do that shit. But hey, greed gets a lot of people, doesn't it?

in their chosen profession.

Sure, a few people make LOTS of money. Many wrestlers are members of SAG or AFTRA (the ones who appear on TV or in film). But Equity doesn't cover shows in church basements, small arenas, or even large arenas. Like any other entertainment business, you have to work your way up to the top, and then you have to work to stay there.

still different.

Pro-wrestlers are in no way the same as some unknown actor working on a small stage. Completely different industries which require different rules to apply.

A whole subset of my family enjoys doing EXTRA work, they do it for kicks, for fun, because they have friends in the biz, but they don't fucking quit their day jobs...I mean, really.

And most actors who are just starting out make ends meet by parking cars, waitering, doing what they have to do to put food on the table. And if they don't, they are prepared to live in poverty, and don't insist that people cry for them because they aren't good enough to get work.

I have no sympathy for these clowns--if they want to abuse themselves for a cheap, tawdry, poorly executed and moronic form of entertainment, that certainly is their choice. They can choose to start out at the bottom and try to work their way up and take their chances on being chosen to move up the ladder.

But for anyone to expect me to muster an iota of sympathy for them BECAUSE they make an idiotic choice of "job" is just a bridge too far.

They don't HAVE to do that work.

I think they're fools. They have every right here in the US to be fools, but I don't have to champion their foolish cause, and I won't.

They're grown-ups, acting like children, who have made their decision about what they want to do for a living, and they do it because they dream of making millions. FINE. Let them--but don't expect me to give a shit about them. Their greed may bring them big paydays, or big pain. It's a crap shoot.

And it's entirely their choice.

what you're saying and I don't think I'm a fool. But I do know I have a union, and wrestlers don't.

Why don't YOU be their Norma Rae if it means so much to you, and stop insisting that others give a shit about those cash craving, steroid laced dunces?

The average worker has more protection from their employer than pro-wrestlers. Shouldn't pro-wrestlers have the same protections such as on the job injuries, exploitation and so on?

The bums in wrestling make ninety grand to START...and that's not counting TV/PPV residuals. See the information posted above. They aren't starving artists.

:eyes:

They don't have protection because they don't WANT protection. It's not that hard to organize--what, they're all sitting around with their thumbs up their asses, waiting for Norma Rae???

They all think they're the smartest guy in the room. They know how to compete for the cash, to sell themselves, and a union would require a bit of brotherhood and a sense that a rising tide lifts all boats--and that would cut into their profit margins, especially for those at the top tiers. Can't have that--the millionaires don't need or want the protection. See, they've GOT theirs.

Your sympathy for these buffoons is quite devoted, but IMO it's misplaced. There are people in the world who are REALLY suffering, and they aren't pro wrestlers.

The average wrestler earns less than 20k per year. Many of the ones I know make just barely enough to survive on. Anyone who makes 90k or more are the ones on TV.

They do want protection, MADem. They won't ask for it because they are afraid of being blackballed. This is their livelihood. They have families to support.

or twenty grand for wiping spittle off an old man's chin.

It's all down to greed.

No sympathy. They can drive a truck, work construction, ask "Do you want fries with that?" There's LOTS they can do. But the money is too much of a lure.

It's not a "livelihood." Sorry--it's a choice they make to earn a fast buck. Hey, prostitution is legal in Nevada. It pays well, but it has risks, too. If these guys want to be performance whores for money, they know the risks, and they can decide if they want to take them.

It's a CHOICE they make.

:rofl:

It is so far from that. You really need to get to know some of these guys who work in the bottom rung so you'll know what you're talking about. You just have no idea at all.

I know wrestlers who've been doing it for years. They don't make a lot of money and that's not why they do what they do. They love what they do so what is so horrible about them wanting better working conditions?

Your rationale makes no sense whatsoever. They're not allowed to complain about their working conditions because you don't like that industry. IMO, every industry, whether we like it or not, deserves even the most basic of protections. That's part of the progressive values I believe.

You still can't see beyond the small percentage who make a lot of money on TV.

again--do not expect me to sympathize with STUPID people who put themselves in harm's way (and so doing can hardly be termed an "industry"--they aren't making widgets) on the hope that they'll be rich like Hulk Hogan someday.

If anyone isn't making sense, it's you. I find their line of work STUPID. I've told you that. I think they are GREEDY. I've said that, too.

You keep insisting that I see things your way, when I just don't. No matter how much you insist. These people do not HAVE to do this "cruel" er... "line of work." They CHOOSE to do it.

I am not saying these people should be forbidden from doing their idiotic "work" now, am I? I'm just saying if they want to do it, they do it of their own free will, it is their decision, their choice, and if they fuck themselves up, well, that's entirely their problem.

I have no sympathy for the JACKASS crew or Eval Kneivel types, either--I find those "industries" equally stupid.

You wanna fuck up your body? You go RIGHT ahead. But don't expect me to shed a tear when you reap the consequences of your own ill-conceived decisions. And don't expect ME to champion "protections" for people who, of their own option, decide to engage in risky and pointless behavior.

they want to make a decent living at what they do. Simple as that.

I just don't think we should pick and choose which industry is worthy or not worthy of basic protections. They should all be covered regardless of our opinions about what people choose to do for a living.

Ooooh kay.

If these idiots want "basic protections" then they can get together all by themselves and form a union, or join one like Actor's Equity. And they can fucking pay for it themselves. I'm uninterested in subsidizing high risk behavior by steroid ingesting fools, or playing Norma Rae to their adoring upturned faces.

Why should I give a shit about their union activity? What, they're stupid, they can't do it themselves?

No one is saying they shouldn't unionize. But don't ask me to be their champion, because I think their "profession" is what a small subset of people do when they don't want to take on a REAL job.

I happen to think they're greedy idiots who take needless risks because they crave money and fame. They're shallow and stupid, and their "activities" are dull and moronic and not worth wasting time on.

Now, that is just my opinion. I have a right to it, and you absolutely do not have to share it.

These people engage in risky behavior with the hope of making millions. They do it of their own free will. It's not my job to worry about them. If you want to, well, knock yourself out, but don't bring me along on your empathetic ride.

I'm just not interested.

not a simple and easy thing. You'd have to research rather than rely on your uneducated opinion. No one is asking you to champion anything.

And regardless of my or anyone else's knowledge you continue to make grand assumptions about an entire group of people you know nothing about.

Time and time again you've shown yourself to be uncaring and obstinate in the face of reality like a certain president we all know.

So don't be interested and quit letting your willful ignorance show.

GRAND assumptions!!! Uncaring and obstinate!!!!! Willful ignorance!!!!! :rofl:

Could you maybe get a little more dramatic? The Plight Of The Downtrodden Wrestler wouldn't be complete without a few more histronics!

Bad news: I still think your precious wrestlers are morons. Greedy morons, too. I guess you'll just have to accept that I am still not seeing things "your way" no matter how hard you stomp that foot!

Oh well....

I'm startled to find this kind of thinking on DU.

Ooooh, yet again I'm a dreaded NAME CALLER who wants to DENY protections!!!!

I guess watching that shit really does make people forget how to read. Nowhere did I say I wanted to DENY THEM protections.

What I said was a bit more nuanced (do I need to tell you what that word means, hmmmm?). They need to go get them themselves if they want them.

Or YOU can be their Norma Rae--just don't ask ME to do it!!!

Come on, make up a few more "meanie" remarks about me, something a bit MORE childish, why not? Unprogressive, name calling, protection denying, WRESTLING hater!!! Oh, the humanity!!!!

:rofl: ...this is easily the funniest exchange I've ever participated in. It really does take the cake.

Since when is calling an entire group of people, friends of mine included, names like that a progressive thing to do? You don't like wrestling. Fine. You ridiculed a need for a union in an industry that employs thousands of people. But I don't see the reasoning in resorting to the Ann Coulter-ish like behavior which you've done during much of this discussion.

If you've forgotten what you've said I suggest you read your own posts. Click on 'My DU' at the top of the page and it will take you to them and you'll see that you've said exactly what you're attempting to deny.

Have a nice day.

Couldn't find those quotes where I opposed their having equal protection, either?

Look, as I said, if, in your opinion, someone dressing up in stretchy underwear and PRETENDING to beat someone else up is a worthy endeavor, you just KNOCK yourself OUT enjoying it!! I am NOT stopping you!

I will continue to believe that anyone who participates in that racket is an idiot looking for easy money and little to no self-actualization, is doubly stupid when they pump themselves full of steroids to achieve a cartoonish look in order to appeal to their not-too-intellectually-rigorous fans, and anyone past the "Power Rangers" age who enjoys that kind of shit is suffering from a massive maturity deficit.

But that's an OPINION, see, and I don't demand that you share it. You don't even have to like it, but it's mine, and I stand by it.

So get over yourself, be a bit "progressive" by respecting those with opinions that differ from yours, and you just go on and have one of those nice days, too.

He is part of a small, local pro wrestling company and he gets paid didly squat, he has another job working as staff for disabled people to make ends meet in order to feed his newborn kid. Most pro wrestlers are not like the few stars you see on TV, and most certainly are pumped up on 'roids.

yours posts in this thread is despicable and bigoted.

sympathy.

They have two legs. They can WALK AWAY.

No one is forcing them to do this "work."

I rather suspect that all of these wrestling agencies have similar pricing structures...otherwise, one would rule, and the others would disintegrate. I mean, really, think about it--this is a market economy, still.

up in an earlier post.

And BTW, WWE is the ONLY major wrestling company — the others are much much smaller. WWE put their competition out of business.

We're not going to agree here. No matter how much you hector me. These steroid laden buffoons are greedy idiots. That's my take on it. If your mileage varies, why, ENJOY YOURSELF. You're free to think differently. See, that's your CHOICE.

Yep, those hod carriers can walk away. So what's your point? If they dislike the job, or find the risk outweighs the benefits, that's what they should do.

My only point about that line of work is that it requires a bit more TALENT, and it also involves risk.

But I never said they couldn't walk away, now, did I?

:sarcasm:

I'm not PROGRESSIVE...boo hoo...because I think PRO WRESTLING is a fake activity perpetuated BY steroid-laden, greedy morons for morons who don't realize it's fake, and it is a complete waste of time that rakes in money from chumps for sleazy assholes!!!!

Wow...how very "unprogressive" of YOU to not allow me the freedom of my own opinion!! I'm not ordering you to agree with me...but you, childishly (which might explain why you like wrestling so much, come to think of it) are insisting that if I don't agree with YOU, I am ....drum roll.....here comes the big 'insult'.......

NOT PROGRESSIVE!!!!!!!!

That's probably the fucking funniest argument I've seen on this board...EVER.

Thank you for the laugh, unintended though it may have been.

:rofl:

you know nothing about. What's laughable is you want to pick and choose who is worth and who isn't worthy of basic protections that the rest of the population gets.

Your basing your opinion that these guys are NOT allowed protections because you don't approve of their line of work. Do you still want to consider yourself progressive?

On top of yet ANOTHER non-progressive accusation!!!!!!

However will I live with myself????

:rofl:

Unlike some who are apparently challenged in that regard!!!

:rofl:

Professional wrestlers have no union and the industry is not regulated by the law.

Circuses are regulated by the law and have protections from exploitation.

Even bricklayers are protected by the law and many are in unions.

Basically, professional wrestling is not regulated and the wrestlers involved have little to no protection in their line of work. They are workers who are trying to make a living. Why should they be denied the basic protections that the rest of us enjoy?

Oh, and BTW, do you know any professional wrestlers? Do you how much training they have to do? I'm not just talking a school...these guys have to train constantly and stay in shape. Keep in mind they are putting their bodies on the line for 200+ shows a year. That's what they do for a living. Maybe if you let someone slam you into a ring from the top turnbuckle about ten times in a row you might view this a little differently.

On TV, they make it look easy, but the reality is there is a hell of a lot work and training that goes into it.

a clue and get out of it.

Perhaps if they were involved in a meaningful form of employment, they'd not only be healthier, but feel better about themselves as well.

absurd gymnastic theatre, and then expect sympathy for going into what can only be described as an IDIOTIC line of work.

It's not a question of hate at all. Hate takes caring. It's simply a notation of their absolute greed and stupidity, and an utter lack of sympathy because they've made their choices--and they ARE choices. There are no slavemasters running around forcing poor innocents to engage in this halfassed enterprise. Everyone knows, nowadays, what steroids do to people--but simple, rank greed makes some nitwits think they'll avoid what happens to everyone else.

The expression "You made your bed, now lie in it" applies.

:eyes:

You're making a general assumption about an industry you know next to nothing about. The greedy ones are usually the promoters who exploit these guys.

The professional wrestlers in this country number in the thousands. The ones you see on TV are a small portion of a much larger group.

You've lost me. These guys do this work for the CASH.

No one stays in a job that doesn't pay, if it involves potential danger or harm to the person. They just DON'T. Unless they're retarded, and I suspect these guys are sharp enough to be able to check their bank balances regularly.

This isn't the Wrestling Plantation we're talking about, here.

I doubt these guys are complete idiots--they're just greedy idiots.

becomes an entertainer. Most will never make big money and they know that, but they do it anyway.

Oh yeah...it's all about the selfless LOVE!!!

:rofl:

But then I'll never get through your prejudice.

You're a hoot!!!

:rofl:

that since you don't approve of their chosen line of work they're shouldn't be given protections.

I didn't--but if you knew how to read (turn of the WWF and pick up a book) you'd realize that.

What I've said is it isn't MY JOB to give them protections.

If they want them, let them unionize. I've said that several times.

But, see, you're just pissed at my OPINION. That's what this is about. You are angry because I happen to think an activity you waste your time on (clearly a LOT of time, given your earnest investment in this thread) is fucking stupid.

See, I have an opinion about something you like, that isn't favorable. It's an opinion that you don't share. And that, my friend, is why you are coming at me, again and again, with bullshit misrepresentations about what I've said about your favored time-waster.

And you can continue to be pissed all day and all night, but you're not aiding your cause, and you're sure as hell not changing my opinion. You're actually providing me with a possibly unintended insight into the rabid wrestling fan....and that's not terribly favorable, either.

My husband makes a living as a truck driver. That can be a pretty shitty line of work, but it's what he does. It doesn't make him any more or less greedy than anyone else, no matter their line of work. Hell, he makes more money than a lot of professional wrestlers...does that make my husband greedy?

Some people stay in jobs because they love them and not because of the money. Yeah, crazy I know. Oh, and firefighters, cops, stuntmen and others do very dangerous work. The money may not be all that great, but they like their jobs. A lot of people like their jobs even though it may not pay low.

Oh, of course ANYONE that does dangerous work is retarded. :eyes:

It's weird you know. On one hand, these guys are greedy and on the other hand...they're retarded for working for low pay. :crazy: Your logic still eludes me.

I'm totally confused.

It's a job with a purpose. It's something he can take pride in. It provides a vital service to Americans. Most of what you touch today has travelled by truck.

Of course, he's not as "cool" as a wrestler, is that what you're saying to me, in oblique fashion? Well, that's your problem, not mine....

Prancing around in stretch underwear pretending to beat someone up isn't a job an adult should take pride in. If they do, well, it says a little something about their intellectual development.

That said, it's their CHOICE to make an ass of themselves.

It's my choice to give my opinion on their activities. If you don't like it, well, guess what? No one is FORCING you to agree with me.

If you'd bother to read for comprehension, you'd see that I don't agree with the low pay bullshit, or most of the crap you're shopping. Even at the lower tiers, these guys are making more than they'd make at Mickey D's--and they hope for more. That IS why they do it--for the MONEY, for the shot at fame...not for the "love of the....it isn't a sport..."--no one takes steroids out of 'love,' they take them to make themselves more appealing to the crowds and the bastards who hand out the paychecks.

And people who do dangerous and useful work are not retarded. But you KNOW that, you're just arguing because you're angry that I still think your precious wrestlers are fucking morons.

I never said you couldn't enjoy the stupid spectacle. You go ahead and knock yourself out, now. Just stop insisting that I buy your bullshit, because that's what you're feeding me, with your "poor wrestlers" speil.

They entertain people and some of them are very good at it. I'm not talking about the top ranking ones on TV. I'm talking the thousands of guys who do it all across the country.

I don't care if you like wrestling. Doesn't matter to me at all. What astounds me, more than anything, is that you're making across the board judgments about an industry, about people, that you know nothing about. You're calling them all names and you want to deny them protections because you don't approve of their chosen profession. That's not progressive. In fact, that's just plain wrong.

I have repeatedly told you I am giving you my OPINION. And I have never said the things you claim. You'd quote me if you could, but you can't because you know full well that you didn't read for comprehension, and there's no "there" there.

If these idiots want to take pride in dressing up in stretch underwear and prancing about like assholes, why, they're welcome to so do! I certainly don't have the PRIDE franchise, now, do I? They don't need my permission, do they? Or did someone make me the King of All Wrestling without my knowledge?

And if they want protection, why, they can UNIONIZE!!! I certainly don't have the STEROID-LADEN GUYS IN BRIGHTLY COLORED STRETCH UNDERWEAR UNION franchise, either, now, do I? So how, then, could I possibly DENY them the protection they seek?

Or are you going off on yet another tear because you're just PISSED at my opinion of your much beloved time wasting activity?

You're going to have to accept the fact that my opinion is firmly held. See, unlike you, I don't especially care if you adore the :rofl: "industry" :rofl: of wrestling--it doesn't offend me that you do not share my opinion of it.

However, I'm not going to sway from my opinion that the people who engage in this idiotic practice are in it for the money, it's fake, it's stupid, it appeals to people who aren't the swiftest, by and large, and it's a load of complete and unadulturated time-wasting shit. OK, one more time--that is my OPINION...and I have a right to it. Even if you don't like it. Capisce?

I'm also not going to call you unprogressive, a name-caller, or a protection denier just because I don't agree with you--see, that would be an incredibly childish thing to do.

You go ahead and knock yourself out with the idiotic "industry" of wrestling. Just don't expect me to SHARE your regard. Because that's not happening, no matter how much you stomp or pout...!

You?

Many of these guys love what they do for a living. And even though you've expressed your disdain for it...that doesn't mean these guys are entitled to less protection because YOU don't like it.

Whether you like it or not...they should be entitled to the same protections as everyone else...and they are not.

Last time I checked, it wasn't legal to ingest steroids. They might want to cut that shit out first.

They should join Actor's Equity and ask for that Union to speak up for them, if they're so downtrodden. Ooops, then they'd have some RULES, though--and some dues, too. Might cut into that profit margin...

Sorry, I'll save my concern for people with real problems. These idiots have two legs, and they can use them to WALK AWAY if their circumstances are so dreadful. But don't ask me to empathize with people who behave like idiots for simple greed. I just don't have it in me.

and don't deserve the most basic of employee protections. That's basically your argument only you want it to specifically apply to professional wrestlers because of your disdain for wrestling.

This profit margin you speak of doesn't go into the wrestler's pockets. It's the promoters who make the money off ticket sales and merchandising. Wrestlers are paid by scale depending on their popularity. Only a handful of wrestlers get paid six figure salaries. Some can make a decent living. Majority of the others make pretty menial wages.

But then again, they love what they do, but they shouldn't complain about wanting the most basic protections that the rest of us get. And your brilliant idea to join Actor's Equity (which has no association and has nothing to do with professional wrestling)completely blows my mind.

You don't even want these guys to have their own union. :eyes:

My grandpa told me a story one time about this woman who was hired to work in his oil field equipment supply store. This was back in the 50s. He said she went through a lot of crap from other men and she complained about it. One of the men mouthed off that she should shut the hell up and if she didn't like it, she should quit. It didn't matter that she had a family to support. She should either put up with being treated like dirt or leave.

I really thought times had changed since then...well, until you voiced your opinion that these guys (who have families to feed as well)have no right to worker protections.

You plainly can't read for comprehension, and that's just a shame.

Maybe you should read more, and watch TV less.

You show me where I ADVOCATE denying your beloved underwear-wearing buffoons worker protections. And show me where I say I want to DENY them their union.

If they want them, they can get them themselves...not ask me to cheerlead for them. That's what I've said, repeatedly.

But then, you knew that. Unless you're actually stupid, and can't read. But you're not that, are you?

You're just getting pissy and making shit up because I don't like wrestling and think it is a stupid practice without any real benefit to mankind! And you can't STAND that.

Could that be it? Yeah, I think that's it. Your little feelings have been hurt. I think that something you like is, dare I say, MORONIC.

And to ice the cake, you have to insult me with "non-progressive" (ooooooh!!!!) accusations to make yourself feel better.

Awwww. Cry me a river....

:rofl:

You know, you really shouldn't get so hung up on what others think--I haven't killed your dog, I've simply given you a firm opinion about something you happen to like wasting your time on.

You also shouldn't insult people and put false words in their mouth just because they don't agree with your viewpoint. That's childish. Oh, and progressives don't do that kind of shit, either. Real ones, anyway.

Like I said, maybe you should turn off that pay per view, and pick up a book.

:eyes:

Halliburton?

Gimme a break. That's lame logic.

Art that requires athleticism.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2007/06/26/4291381-sun.html

Personally, I'm so glad Bret left the business.

We don't test actors for drugs, see no reason to test pro wrestlers for drugs.

sheesh one bad apple and now everybody's gotta piss in a cup? land of the free indeed

a grown man is entitled to make a decision to enhance his own body if he is not hurting anyone else

most people on steroids don't kill other people or we'd be in real trouble this time of century

most people simply are after an enhanced look or performance that they can't get w.out the steroids

i don't see why it is more fair for someone to win the genetic lottery than it is for people to actually strive and experiment to improve their bodies, sorry, i just don't get it

don't seize on tragedies as an excuse to lock everybody else in a cage, it isn't what the people in the tragedies would have wanted and isn't what they chose for themselves

we need to stop knowing better than everybody else what medicines to take and what their bodies should look like

my opinion anyways

http://www.pwtorch.com/artman/publish/article_20640.shtml

<snip>

They went on to note that "60 wrestlers" have died under the age of 45. "It's astounding. Astroniomically astounding. Nobody really focuses on it because wrestling is kind of a circus, an athletic soap opera. We don't really care about the players, apparently, because this is a continual cycle or drugs, road shows, alcohol, and they're travelling 250 days a year. The more wild your show is, the more money you make. That in the end turns out to haunt you. The doctor said typically wrestlers take more steroids than their should.

<snip>

Tom Sizemore would disagree with you.

Obviously convicts are going to get drug tested. Doesn't really have anything to do with acting, now does it?

taken out on him for domestic abuse - maybe he should have been tested.

Mandatory drug screening for all?

Dead bodies are piling up at professional wrestling's door because of steroid abuse.

our fire fighters, police officers have random drug testing.

I don't know that I agree with random drug testing, but I know that steroid abuse has been out of control for too long.

in the police/firefighter fields. Matter of fact, I've read recent articles that say usage amongst these particular groups is on the rise.

It wouldn't matter much, anyway. Anyone that tests positive (offset test/estrogen levels) can beg off to having used one of the countless "pro-hormones" that can cause a potentially positive test. Or, if they're over 35, they can get a legit script from dozens of shady wellness clinics.

makes no sense.

has been out of control for too long.

Fire fighters and police officers are subject to random drug testing both to ensure that they are not abusing illegal substances and to ensure that they are not altered in any way when they are called upon to perform their official duties because it could put at risk the lives of those they are to protect.

Some testing of people in manufacturing jobs is designed to ensure that they aren't altered and thus become a danger both to themselves and to others and because accidents and injuries slow production and cost the business money.

Testing of secretaries is just ludicrous, imo.

And testing a pro wrestler ranks right up there with testing secretaries. I suppose you could justify it, but at that point you are essentially justifying testing nearly everyone. There are a couple of guys who work out at my gym that probably are roids users. Should everyone who goes to a gym be subject to testing?

have the same or worse steroid abuse rate that pro-wrestling has? Do they have the dead bodies pro-wrestling has? Do they have the same risks that pro-wrestling has? Do they have the same influence on the youth that professional wrestling has?

Professional wrestling has no union. That industry has corrupt and exploitive promotors? That industry has no oversight whatsoever.

your plan for that?

and, obviously, steriod abuse.

unfortunately we don't have a way to make stupidity illegal

:puke:

but those guys are athletes in every sense of the word. You have to be in tremendous shape to be able to perform that kind of work.

and get paid for it.

it does take a very special person to be able to sell that they did so without hurting the other guy.

Personally, I couldn't jump from a 20 foot cage and land on a guy laying on a table, smashing us both through it without probably killing us both. These guys do it over and over again.

...

unlike boxing, football and other close contact sports where giving physical pain is the intent.

I've always been amazed at some wrestlers who make it look so easy and do it in such a way to not cause injury to others.

heck, you need to be in good shape to be a member of Cirque de Soleil. Or to be a professional stunt man.

Where people get injured on a regular basis and must be in top physical form in order to perform well.

...

It still should have more regulation of steroid use than it does.

I enjoyed it off and on for many years.

(No insult intended, I've seen a lot of teenage boys think big muscles are worth the risk)

I had no idea so many DUers were wrestling fans.

Fascinating.

WWE is not professional wrestling.

This is more than steroids, I think.

How many people were killed by booze abuse last year? Anti-depressants linked to how many murders and/or suicides?

Pro wrestling doesn't need regulation, it needs a damn union that will help guys that might need it. I don't believe there's a Teamsters in their future, though.

can't get insurance on them, and the actor doesn't work. So, in a roundabout way, there is "drug testing."

Absolutely you are right — pro wrestling needs a union (other than the entertainers' unions); everytime anyone mentions it, they lose their job with WWE, though. McMahon won't hear of it.

which for the life of me, I can't recall the title of the thing.
She is indeed an annoying person, but I think that she is a very talented actress.

This is pure Kabuki theater with body slams.

There is no uncertainty as to who wins. It's scripted.

That's why smart bookies don't take bets on wrestling outcomes.

:shrug:

Of course it's scripted. That has nothing to do with the questions I'm asking.

The direction Vince McMahon has taken wrestling has hurt the whole sport for the participants.

Now, they're taking on more risks, both physical and mental just to stay "on the tour".

What started out as an entertaining diversion has been turned into a major industry.

Even the industry no longer tries to keep the "secret". But there is no doubt that it take tremendous athleticism to do what these guys do night after night. So they are professionals in a sense.

It'll tell you all you need to know about wrestling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe

And where the hell can I find these bookies? :)

. . . without the finger-waggers coming out of the woodwork calling us troglodytes and reminding us that it's "fake", as if we didn't get the memo.

And yes, it needs to be policed. Apparently, it's nearly impossible to get by in this business without being on either steroids or some form of painkiller. 250 matches a year on average takes it's toll.

Hell, ANY strenuous sport is going to render you less than human over time. My sister played basketball and stopped when she was around 22. Basketball is a seasonal endeavor, unlike wrestling, which goes all year round. She's 35 now and has 4 herniated disks in her back, a knee that still twitchy years after ACL surgery, has mobility issues and can't lift heavy things anymore. This is a sport she stopped a decade and some change ago. Now imagine what wrestlers who go into their late 30s-early 40s deal with after doing this for 15 years of their lives straight.

it is not the steroids that addict people to sports and make it so impossible to quit even into their 30s or even older, look at george foreman now trying to stage a comeback, it's MONEY

i don't know what the answer is, if you're involved in sport, yeah, you get injured sooner or later but taking away steroids doesn't change that...i doubt your sister was on steroids for example

I personally know a guy who made it pro and played 4 years but was done by 26 - the docs told him no amount of painkillers and surgery would get him back on the field again. He's 40 now and has not been able to walk without assistance since aged 26 and quite frankly his arms don't work that well either - not to mention the headaches. Now he's full time in a wheelchair and get this -- he's STILL fighting the NFL for disability.

"Delay, deny and hope they die".

so much easier to label a group of people "white trash" and show no compassion for them whatsoever.

Dumb trash. Who cares if they get beaten up, used up, mangled, disfigured and discarded just to entertain a bunch of white trash, right? :sarcasm:

"Apparently, it's nearly impossible to get by in this business without being on either steroids or some form of painkiller. 250 matches a year on average takes it's toll."

Yep. I'm thinking of the Benoit/Jericho ladder match they replayed on RAW Monday night. Imagine doing matches like that 250 nights a year for 15-20 years. How can someone recover from that physically and have the strength to perform day in and day out without painkillers and steroids? Imagine the injuries in some of these smaller promotions where the talent is less skilled, yet they still attempt to be "extreme."

They probably need to regulate the types of stunts, the amount of hours worked, and require drug testing across the industry.

Maybe Vince McMann can regulate his own company first.
He is the only major player of this kind of "industry" out there.

What next, drug tests for musicians? I just don't like where this is going.
I don't buy McMann's product if you do buy it, then write to the manufacturer.
It is a product he produces and his consumers need to write him and start there first.

Tragic death which might or might not have been tied to lack of "regulation".

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Most wrestlers who do take steroids don't take the normal anabolic steroids, but instead take things like human growth hormone and other stuff that's legal to obtain (and therefore difficult to regulate). Basically the same stuff we all know pro-ballers and hockey players take.

Stanozolol, nandrolone and testosterone as well as hgh have shown up in their lockers, allegedly.

Possession of steroids without a prescription is already a serious violation of federal law. Anybody that uses steroids is aware of that too. Yes this is a tragedy, but the response to any tragedy should not automatically be MORE laws. Good grief. How about we hold Chris Benoit, and Chris Benoit ALONE responsible for his actions.

For what it's worth, I personally cannot stand "rasslin'" and I don't think taking steroids is worth the long term risks for such short term benefits.

:hide:

Should you have to pee in a cup on your way into work?

The root problem seems to be our culture's bizarre obsession with entertainment.

they are a liability on set.

Many seem to forget the wrestlers influence on impressionable young minds. That is the main reason to ban steroid use.

Drug testing is a waste of time and money. Professional wrestlers are going to take whatever drug keeps them in the sport, whether it's OTC painkillers or more potent stuff.

If all drugs were legalized and regulated these athletes could take what they need under a physician's care instead of dealing with black market salesmen.

Every athlete does "performance enhancing" things. It's time to admit this and move on to more important matters.

It's backwater entertainment.

While athletic, it's not sport.

It's trashy soap opera for men and boys.

Hopefully, people will stop watching.

The New Jersey athletic commission was looking into regulating the former WWF (World Wrestling Federation). Then, presto! It instantly became "World Wrestling Entertainment". No more pesky regulators (for the time being, anyway).

In 2000, the World Wildlife Fund (also WWF), an environmental organization now called the World Wide Fund for Nature, sued the World Wrestling Federation. A British court agreed that Titan Sports had violated a 1994 agreement which had limited the permissible use of the WWF initials overseas, particularly in merchandising.<7>

On Sunday May 5, 2002, the company quietly changed all references on its website from "WWF" to "WWE", while switching the URL from WWF.com to WWE.com. The next day, a press release announced the official name change from World Wrestling Federation Entertainment, Inc. to World Wrestling Entertainment, Inc., or WWE, and the change was publicized later that day during a telecast of Monday Night RAW, which emanated from the Hartford Civic Center in Hartford, Connecticut. For a short time, WWE used the slogan "Get The 'F' Out".<8> The company had also been ordered by court to stop using the old WWF Attitude logo on any of its properties and to censor all past references to WWF, as they no longer owned the trademark to the initials WWF in 'specified circumstances'.<9> However, despite litigation, WWE is still permitted use of the original WWF logo, which was used from 1984 through 1997, as well as the "New WWF Generation" logo, which was used from 1994 through 1998. Furthermore, the company may still make use of the full "World Wrestling Federation" and "World Wrestling Federation Entertainment" names without consequence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wrestling_Entertainment

Lots of pressure to engage in drug use among rock musicians. Should we regulate it? They're role models. And then we can go after writers. Lots of novelists with problems with drugs and alcohol. Let's test 'em.

Or maybe not.

But IMO most of the steroid problems are probably found among the big-time wrestlers that are on TV.


Oh, and it seems to me that a lot of the bashing of pro wrestling is classist BS aimed the generally working class people who watch it.