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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 10:52 AM
Original message
What punishment is appropriate for animal torturers?
The moral depravity of the dog-fighting ring that Michael Vick is allegedly involved with almost defies articulation. For a long time, I have felt that this kind of willful cruelty to animals needs to be addressed much more seriously by our justice system. I believe that a good deal of research will show a strong relationship between cruelty to animals and violence against human beings. Ask yourself, do you think that people who committed the sadistic acts detailed in the Vick indictment should ever be left alone with a child or other vulnerable person? I think that those who are convicted of willful animal cruelty should serve prison terms of multiple decades, if not life, because they shown that they are a threat to society at large. What are your thoughts?
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Klukie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think animal cruelty is just as reprehensible as child abuse.
Animals, like children are innocents, and to project violence on an innocent is the worst of all offenses in my mind.
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slowry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. I agree and couldn't care less, as some do, whether it means he'll hurt a human being or not. n/t
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
63. And elder abuse
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
65. Abuse is frequently inter-linked
Your insight is keen.

http://www.helpinganimals.com/Factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=18

Because abusers target the powerless, crimes against animals, spouses, children, and the elderly often go hand in hand. Children who abuse animals may be repeating a lesson learned at home; like their parents, they are reacting to anger or frustration with violence. Their violence is directed at the only individual in the family more vulnerable than themselves: an animal.

Parents who neglect or abuse an animal frequently subject their own children to similar hardships. Indiana residents Jade M. Jonas and Michael R. Smith faced felony charges stemming from authorities’ reported discovery of their two children and three dogs languishing in their filthy home. According to news sources, officials first found a tethered dog deprived of food and water outside the home. Upon entering the couple’s residence, investigators reportedly found a 3-month-old boy lying near piles of feces, trash, and rotten food; a half-clothed toddler; and two additional dogs.(13) In another case, Illinois authorities found 40 parasite-ridden dogs languishing amid 6 inches of feces on property occupied by John Morris. According to news reports, officials responding to neighbors’ concerns found the sick and emaciated dogs confined to filthy animal carriers before confirming that three children—ages 3, 10, and 15—lived in the horrific conditions as well.(14)

13) “Police Remove Children From Filthy House,” Associated Press, 17 Jun. 2005.
14) John H. Croessman, “Filthy Find,” Du Quoin Evening Call 8 Dec. 2004.

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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Should be similar to child molesters
First they should be banned from interacting with animals but then that will cause some of them to escalate to child abuse or worse. So at the very least they should be restrained from animals and then monitored for a time to insure they don't harm any kids.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. i think this is just plain silly
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 10:58 AM by pitohui
there is no evidence that folks who run dog fighting or cock fighting rings are any danger to children, vulnerable elders, or any other human beings other than the gambling addicts who patronize their games

if vick and others are guilty, as i suppose they are, they need to pay a price -- but locking these folks up for "multiple" decades at taxpayer expense seems ridiculous, a sentence of a year gets the message across that dog fighting is not a nice thing to do and these folks can then have a chance to direct their considerable energies into (i would hope) legal business ventures

vick is going to lose a dream career because of his stupidity, he has thrown away a chance he worked for his whole life and that most people never get, that's a pretty stiff punishment as it is

you really think whole lives should be thrown away over dogs? because that in itself is disturbing to me, would i want a person who thinks that way teaching my kids, probably not, it's extremism which never leads to any good end

i'd like to see some murderers and drug dealers locked up for multiple decades, then get back to me about the dog fighters
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Have you read the indictment?
The level of sadism described is staggering. I think it is entirely reasonable to believe that somebody who exhibits this level of moral depravity will not draw the line at harming humans if given the opportunity. Would you leave your kids or feeble grandma alone with one of these people?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. yes indictments exist to make the accused sound bad, don't they?
many times, as we now know from the innocense project, prosecutors exaggerate, imagine that

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
52. I don't think we should need to depend on beliefs, there must be studies....
... to we find such a correlation?
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. There are studies
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 12:44 PM by northernsoul
http://usfnews.usf.edu/page.cfm?link=article&aid=358

"We're not just talking about kicking a dog here," Heide said. "The violent offenders, in sharp contrast to the non-violent offenders, were far more likely as children to have committed extreme acts of abuse against a family pet or neighborhood animals-acts that the average person would find abhorrent and somewhat gruesome." Acts of animal cruelty reported by violent offenders included stomping a kitten to death, setting a dog on fire and having sex with an animal.

Participants for the scientific study were selected from a random sample of approximately 100 male violent and non-violent inmates at a maximum-security facility. Among the violent offenders, 33 percent were convicted of murder, manslaughter or attempted murder; 31 percent were convicted of sexual battery; and the rest were convicted of other violent offenses. The researchers interviewed the participants and then coded the data using two data collection instruments: The first identified the type of cruelty according to pet, stray, wild and farm animal categories, and the second measured levels of abuse and neglect that inmates reported experiencing in their families.

Heide and Merz-Perez found that the incidence of child abuse and neglect in the two samples was high. What set the violent offenders apart from the non-violent offenders was not their histories of child abuse. Rather, it was their experiences mistreating animals as children. In addition to being significantly more likely than non-violent offenders to have abused pet and stray animals, violent offenders also showed a tendency toward abuse of wild and farm animals.

"We noticed in some cases that the type of abuse violent offenders inflicted on an animal was similar to the type of act they later committed on people," Heide said. "Also, violent offenders rarely expressed any remorse for their actions or empathy for the animals."


Here are more statistics, albeit un-sourced and from a non-peer-reviewed provider (http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/abuse_connection/whole_picture.php):

* In 88 percent of 57 New Jersey families being treated for child abuse, animals in the home had been abused.
* Of 23 British families with a history of animal neglect, 83 percent had been identified by experts as having children at risk of abuse or neglect.
* In one study of battered women, 57 percent of those with pets said their partners had harmed or killed the animals. One in four said that she stayed with the batterer because she feared leaving the pet behind.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. "dog fighting is not a nice thing to do" ?
Oh brother!
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. dog-fighting + torture = spitting on the sidewalk?
Wow. Just wow.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. you disagree with that statement? in what way is dogfighting a nice thing to do? EOM
:shrug:

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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. It's a violent, sociopathic thing to do
"not nice" just doesn't get it.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. i'm fairly sure that being violent and sociopathic is considered "not nice"
if you really want to know where i'm coming from read #17

i'm tired of the gov't chasing people like hilton and vick when we have blood running in our city streets from the murderers who are going unprosecuted
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Right, it's "not nice" to murder, it's "not nice" to rape
Got it. You seem to miss the larger picture. Dog fighting is brutality of the highest form; this is criminal mental illness. Not something to be played down.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. dog fighting is NOT brutality of the highest form,murder is much worse in my view
as i say, i realize that a lot of people do not care what is happening in this world and do not care that we have limited financial resources

they would rather spend the $$$ on chasing celebrities and getting a prosecutor's face on the news than on our terrible time of need

do you understand what is happening down here, with people being slaughtered every single day in orleans and jefferson parish and virtually no one being charged with the crimes?

law enforcement and the court system has a budget, the more budget spent on attention getting in the media, the less spent on the brutal murder of teens that is an ongoing day to day part of life in this country and especially in southeast louisiana

people care more about a damn dog than they do about the destruction of our city, and that is REALLY "not nice"

there is such a thing as priorities

we eat animals and while i don't necessarily approve of fighting them, jesus christ, there is a limit to how much time and money should be spent on pursuing this shit when there are limited funds and bigger fish to fry

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Klukie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Now now Johnny, electrocuting that doggy wasn't very nice.....
now tell them you are sorry. :sarcasm:

:wtf:
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
41. "not nice" is a profound understatement, bordering on flippancy
n/t
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. one of those dogs getting loose would not be a danger to children or vulnerable elders?
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 11:15 AM by Iris
Hell, in the past year, one of each group has been killed by dogs in the Atlanta area.

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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. That's a non-sequitor
How does any purported threat these abused animals might pose serve to excuse their abusers? Your contention is irrelevant to the subject of the appropriate judicial response to animal abusers.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. I don't think it is. This is the sort of thing that has an impact on the rest of society.
Just as your drug dealers that you think have an impact on the community around them. I don't see a difference. I happen to live in an area where this is a serious problem and have been attacked more than once by dogs with irresponsible owners. People engaged in dog fighting activities are basically creating lethal weapons that can cause considerable damage to lives who otherwise have no involvement in the activity.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. Ok, I might have misunderstood you
You're saying that an additional risk these guys pose to society at large comes from the fact that they are creating dangerous dogs, which may attack people as well - did I get that right? If so, point taken. I apologize for misunderstanding you earlier, I thought your post was getting at any entirely different point. Peace.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. yes. That's what I was trying to say. But I'll admit that I find the desire to
engage in this activity to be sub-human and indicative of serious character flaws.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. why do you support animal abuse?
And there is research that shows that people who abuse animals (think Chimpy puttin explosives up the rectum of cats) do have higher rates of abuse toward human animals.

You just sound like one of the "god put animals here for us to do whatever the hell we want with" types.

Cruelty and abuse is not mitigated because the victim cannot go to church.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
48. Crock of Crap
Man, I wish Psychology 101 was required. Animal cruelty is an absolute indicator of cruelty and he would likely do it to a human, a child, a wife, an elderly person. A sadist is a sadist. Go crack a book some time.
Lee
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #48
67. Well, yes, it is an indicatory of cruelty.
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 01:51 PM by Bornaginhooligan
Advocating cruel and unusual punishment is also an indicatory of cruelty.

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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. No, one IS cruel. The other IS venting.
He actually did things to animals. People here are simply venting and aren't doing ANYTHING to the man.
Lee
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
89. I'm not sure how you know what the future holds for Mr Vick.
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 09:34 PM by koopie57
I suspect you probably don't. And it also seems as though you have something else bothering you cuz your arguments are a little disjointed in MHO. But that is beside the point and I suspect you will make some sarcastic comment and probably put a stupid laughing figure up cuz you have no other thoughtful comment.

There are many things in this world that need to be fixed. You seem to have other priorities than dogs and dog fighting. That is good, but it doesn't belittle the cruelty done to these animals.

What this bastard did to these animals is sickening. There is no argument that can justify it just because you don't feel it is as important as other problems in this world. I could understand your feelings if it were only the dogfighting and then destroying them, but this bastard did unspeakable things to these animals. Cruelty to such a degree that he must be sick beyond all belief to even think these acts up. I am curious how you would feel if these things were done to you? Why should an animal be treated any differently. Because it is only an animal? Who are you to decide that anyway? Have you ever been able to comfort someone simply by quietly being there? What if this was done to the elderly?

This goes beyond all abuse, clinical testing of animals, eating animals. It is not funny nor something to be treated as no big deal. A strong person builds other up, but a weak person tears them down. Vick, a big football star, money, fame, doors open for him and he has to do this to a defenseless animal. Yeah, he is a bigshot.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. For the first offense, I'd say a massive fine.
And probation.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Out of curiousity
Why do you favor such a lenient approach?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Because I'm not bloodthirsty and vindictive.
And I don't think it's lenient, I think it's appropriate. There are people who actually hurt other people who get less of a sentence. I think it would keep said offender from doing it again, which is the whole point of criminal justice. And I think this stuff about "harming kids" is just plain ridiculous. Witchhunt style ridiculous.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Animal Cruely is Indicator of Future Violent Offense
With all due respect, I disagree with your characterization that the concept of animal abusers posing a threat to human beings as "withchunt style ridiculous."

University of South Florida Study Finds Childhood Animal Cruelty is Indicator for Violent Offenders
http://usfnews.usf.edu/page.cfm?link=article&aid=358

What set the violent offenders apart from the non-violent offenders was not their histories of child abuse. Rather, it was their experiences mistreating animals as children. In addition to being significantly more likely than non-violent offenders to have abused pet and stray animals, violent offenders also showed a tendency toward abuse of wild and farm animals.

"We noticed in some cases that the type of abuse violent offenders inflicted on an animal was similar to the type of act they later committed on people," Heide said. "Also, violent offenders rarely expressed any remorse for their actions or empathy for the animals."
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. That's exactly the sort of witchhunt bullshit I'm talking about.
Some researchers looked at violent offenders, and found they had a history of animal abuse in their childhoods.

Then scientifically illiterate people who don't understand the difference between correlation and causation come along, and figure it means that people who run dog fighting rings are about to magically transform into homicidal maniacs.

Kind of like assuming somebody's a witch because she floats like a duck.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Correlation plus logical connection does equal causation.

Cruelty is the logical connection.

Your example is amazingly ignorant.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. LOL
:rofl:
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
69. Ignore Him
He is a pedantic drone.

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/PARLMENT/hansArt.nsf/V3Key/LC20001011042

The Hon. A. G. CORBETT <11.28 p.m.>: In the 1970s research into prisoner profiles found a strong link between serial killers and a history of cruelty to animals. More recent studies into current and past cases have confirmed the link. Retrospective studies of the life of convicted sadistic murderers and serial murderers showed a startling proportion of those murderers had a history of animal abuse, often starting in childhood. The roll call of internationally infamous killers includes Jeffrey Dahmer, Milwaukee's cannibal killer of 16 young men; Albert deSalvo, the Boston Strangler, who murdered 13 women; David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam; David Harker, Britain's cannibal killer; and even the two 10-year-olds, Robert Thompson and John Venables, who killed toddler Jamie Bulger. They all had a history of animal torture or violence in their youth. Australia has not escaped the profile: Paul Denyer, the Frankston serial killer of three women in 1993, and John Travis, one of the Cobby killers, both have a history of animal abuse, starting in childhood.


He has no idea what he's talking about. None. You would be hard pressed to find a shrink who wouldn't tell you that animal abuse IS an indicator of sociopathy. It's where the little freaks start. Go put in a search. Find ONE shrink site that doesn't list the correlation. It is not a witch-hunt. It is science. Find one. I challenge ANYONE to find a valid psychiatry link that does not state a strong correlation between cruelty to animals and sociopathy. ONE. He just likes to defend the most heinous of the heinous.

Lee
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. I never said there wasn't a correlation...
between sociopathy and animal cruelty.

I'm saying there's no causation of sociopathy by dog fighting.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. Can strong correlation ever create an inference of causation?
I'm not a scientist, but my life experiences have taught me that stone-cold 100% certain proofs of causation are pretty rare. However, we frequently may make permissible logical inferences of strong likelihood of causation based on evidence of correlation. Is it impermissible to believe that somebody who was exhibited remorseless, sadistic tendencies in one context has a pronounced likelihood of exhibiting exacerabated sadistic behavior in the future? On a common-sense level, can you honestly say you would be just as comfortable dropping your kids off at a house that hosts dog-fights as one that does not?
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Good response. But you cannot expect reason from someone who believes
that animal cruelty is OK.

They will just defend their viewpoint regardless of facts or logic (ala King George).
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. In fairness, I don't think he said it was OK
He just disagrees with my position that it should be dealt with much more seriously by our justice system. My position is premised on the beliefs that: 1) the primary purpose of incarceration is to incapacitate those who are a demonstrated risk to others; and 2) animal abusers are a demonstrated threat to others. Bornagainhooligan disagrees with my second premise, the proffered factual evidence that supports it, and the conclusion that it leads to. It's an honest disagreement, I don't think he's off juggling kittens as we speak.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
73. Yeah, I'm not juggling kittens.
They're all at the vets getting declawed. Little bastards can put up a fight.

Anywho...

"animal abusers are a demonstrated threat to others."

Yes, I'm disputing this position. If you've got any evidence of it, I'd like to see it.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. see posts #60 & 65
unless these findings are completely fabricated, I submit that they show more than a coincidental linkage between animal abuse and violence towards humans.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #79
93. You're misinterpreting the data.
The studies show sociopaths have a past of abusing animals, not the other way around.

I've already pointed that out, so I'll have to assume you're intentionally misinterpreting it. But why?
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
60. More
According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.

Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children. Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.


http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/abuse_connection.php

Granted, I wish they would've provided some kind of citation to the "other research" referred to in the second paragraph. But unless this is entirely fabricated, I think there is an empirical basis for reaching the logical inference that there is a non-coincidental link between animal cruelty and violence against humans.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
84. So if you're rich it's ok to pay some big bucks and continue like photo radar?
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MousePlayingDaffodil Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. The crimes for which Vick has been indicted . . .
. . . are felonies. Upon conviction, Vick could receive up to six years in prison and a $350,000 fine.

That's the maximum sentence, of course.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Upon conviction, I think a more appropriate punishment
would be at least six years in prison AND the confiscation of every single dollar he has earned while engaging in this conduct (many, many, millions of $), to be re-allocated to the ASPCA and a special FBI unit dedicated to breaking up dog-fighting rings.
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MousePlayingDaffodil Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. Well, I believe that the federal statute in question. . .
. . . also allows the court or jury (whoever does the sentencing post-conviction) to order that "restitution" be made.

But, of course, apart from this, the penalty or penalties that can be imposed on a person convicted of a criminal act can only be those that are specified in advance by statute.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Yeah, I know that my solution won't happen
I imagine any statutorily-prescribed restitution can only be directed to a directly aggrieved party. I'm just day-dreaming of a genuinely just outcome.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. Severity of punishment should match the severity of the crime on conviction
Many cases are more depraved than Vick's, and many are less. I do think that ANY felony conviction, or conviction of "animal cruelty" should carry with it an order stating that the convicted may not have animals in the future, nor be charged with the care of animals in the future.

I think jail should be mandatory in these convictions as well, with terms appropriate for the crime.
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. I agree
They should never be allowed to have an animal again, at least not without a judge's approval. As far as the sentence, my gut says 10 years, but I think mandatory sentences are generally bad. An appropriate sentence could be more or less than that depending on the severity of the crime.

I think some sort of education or rehabilitation that demonstrates the wrongness of the crime should be part of it also. Some kind of psychological rehabilitation before they are ever released.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. It should be a Federal (felony) crime...
Each offense raises the classification a level. Which would mean that habitual repeat offenders would eventually be shuttered for most of their remaining life.

Society does not need this kind of sociopath any more than it needs child molesters, murders, rapists, etc.

MZr7
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. in most cases murder is not a federal crime, but a state crime
you think dog fighting is worse than murder?

folks, this is really an odd thread, some of the posters on this site really need to put the pipe down

if we are bringing federal attention to crimes, by damn, get the federal ass down here to new orleans and start prosecuting some of the gee-dee murders who are gunning people down in the streets and in bars over drug territories, that's a federal offense if you ask me, they are not just killing each other over drugs but destroying the entire future of the city

cops are getting sick and tired of catching murderers, only to have the walk free, because the d.a. pretends he can't find the witnesses (pay offs anyone?) -- now THAT'S a federal offense/prosecution i could get behind

once we've cleaned up these issues, fine, if there's any $$$ left by all means let's go after stupid-ass athletes who have nothing better to do in their spare time than hold dogfights
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. I will have to challenge that.. See Title 18 Chapter 51 of the US Criminal Code
In the United States, a federal crime or federal offense is a crime that is either made illegal by U.S. federal legislation or a crime that occurs on U.S. federal property.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title18/parti_.html

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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. where is the challenge, it is explicit that murder is quite often NOT a federal crime
this is why so often in civil rights days when murdereres were allowed to walk free, the federal gov't had no option but to try the murderer for violating the victim's civil rights

not every murder occurs on federal land, certainly in the south, very few murders would occur on federal land because most land is private or state owned and the indian reservations are not as large
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
64. Ok.. what states have "murder" defined as a misdemeanor rather than a felony ? -nt
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
66. the creation of a federal offense is not necessarily precluded
However, as a matter of consistency with federalist principles, I would have some concerns about federalizing a crime that could be dealt with at a state level. Having said that, there probably are good policy reasons to have large, sophisticated, inter-state animal torture rings such as those Mr. Vick was allegedly involved in subject to vigorous federal enforcement - which appears to be the case with Mr. Vick's purported operation.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
12. What they do is wrong & immoral
without being tied to a possible future episodes of violence to humans.

People qualify the argument for stronger penalties for animal cruelty with "it often leads to violence against humans in the future." Well, who the fuck is surprised about that? My question is, why does that make what they do now, to an animal, more wrong? I don't think it does.

Our disregard for the other inhabitants of this planet diminishes our humanity. As we are starting to discover, what we do to one we do to all.

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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
32. I bring up the threat to people
because I believe that the primary purpose of incarceration is to incapacitate people who have demonstrated that they pose a substantial risk to others. In my book, there are plenty of acts which are morally wrong, but do not deserve incarceration because they don't indicate a threat to others. I appreciate, and largely share, your belief that animal cruelty needs to be punished because It's Just Plain Wrong. However, I felt I needed to explain my position that such acts actually warrant extensive incarceration.
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slowry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
44. .
:yourock:
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
51. well the OP apparently doesn't think it is violent and immoral "enough"
some people can't be outraged unless they can bring up "think of the children"

the animal's pain is not important, nor is an adult human's pain, no crime is all that bad unless "think of the children"

strange sort of logic if you ask me

i think it a basic tenet of american justice that we punish people for what they have done, not for what they might one day do -- too easily to speculate about what any of us might "one day" do if you ask me

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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. You are misrepresenting my position
Have I stated anything that even remotely stands for the proposition that:
the animal's pain is not important, nor is an adult human's pain, no crime is all that bad unless "think of the children"
?

My position is that this kind of activity is both morally vile, and is sufficiently indicative of threat to others to warrant prolonged incapacitation through incarceration.

Your posts, conversely, indicate that this kind of conduct is merely "not nice," and that the potential diminishment of an NFL career is a sufficiently negative outcome (in the particular case of Mr. Vick, I'm not sure what you think is appropriate for non-millionaire animal torturers).
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
22. i think many of you should be glad that you're alive now rather than in the 1880s
when it was common practice to control household pet litters by disposing of them in backyard privies.

i remember when hitting condo construction sites in chicago, along with decanters, patent medicine bottles, shoes, and manifold other household detritus, i often found many, many puppy and kitten bones.

and people thought the victorian age was one of delicate sensibilities!
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
42. trust me, I am thrilled to not be in the 1880's
For any number of reasons, widespread acceptance of abuse to animals and humans alike being one of them.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
27. Give them a degree and a lab
Then they'll get funding from the government, do whatever the hell they want to the animals who are not dressed up, and it'll be nice and legal.

Problem, meet Solution.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
31. You really don't want ME to answer that!
My response would certainly trigger a deleted post!
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Ino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
38. Do unto them as they did unto the animal. (n/t)
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demgurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
40. IMPEACHMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!! nt
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
45. A long prison sentence for animal cruelty? That wouldn't happen
if someone abused one of my animals. They'd be facing the death penalty. As for Michael Vick, I can't stomach to read what he did to those dogs. He should be locked in a cage with hungry, pissed off pitbulls and left to fend for himself. Maybe someone could sell tickets. It would be at least as exciting as his dog fights.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
46. In This Case, I Have a Solution
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
50. I am never in favor of the Mikado "Let the punshment fit the crime" literally, but
I think that if he is convicted and sentenced part of his job should be help training seeing eye dogs, mandatory meetings at pet grief support groups, or making him stand in the room where people have to let their pets go, and watch the agony of people saying goodbye to their pet for the last time. that last one he should do for 100 days, every day.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
58. How much you want to bet that the judge finds probation and a small fine "appropriate"?
I bet he doesn't spend one night in jail, and won't miss one damn game.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
59. 3-7 years for serious offenses
:shrug:

Life terms, except in the most severe serial murder cases, are ridiculous, IMHO.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. fair enough, but
what makes positions other than your "ridiculous"? I also believe that child molesters should never see daylight again, due to both the reprehensibility of the crime and the demonstrable likelihood of a re-offense - is that position ridiculous? If so, why?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
61. I'd go with a STIFF fine and probation to 1 year in prison for a first offense,
and then big steps of longer time after that.

I think there ought to be flexibility in sentencing - I can imagine some acts being far worse than others.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. I think a long prison term would be good
He didn't JUST dogfight, which would be bad enough. He cruelly electrocuted losers, etc. They found carcasses. The man is a danger to life itself. He is a sociopath. He not only did this he had fun doing it. He partied. He probably came. He is a disgusting creature. There are not very many successful treatments for sociopathy.
Lee
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
74. Make them listen to lectures from animal rights activists 12 hours a day.
It won't be long before they genuinely regret their actions.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Or
they might learn something.

But, I guess nobody likes a lecture.

Nice insult, though.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Nope.
Cruel and unusual.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
77. they shouLd make them become boxers
or cannibaLs.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
78. Certainly jail time and fines
But they should also undergo mandatory psycho-dynamic therapy. Maybe some could be reached.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
80. Cleaning litter boxes the rest of their lives
and then being forced to eat the cat shit.
No other food
BHN
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
81. Death
Fuck 'em, say I.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
82. I don't know.
My immediate reaction to your question is that they should be confined enough to make sure that they are not able to harm others. The same consequence I advocate for any who do harm.

What that means, in practical terms, I'm not sure.

I hesitate to restrict freedoms, as well. I guess I'd have to fall back on "the least restrictive environment" to prevent harm. :shrug:

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
83. V is for Vendetta.
:evilgrin:
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
85. Real jail time. Maybe 1/2 of what someone would get
if it were done to a person.
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michaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
86. If you would do this to a defenseless dog you would have no qualms....
about doing something as horrible to a human being. These people have no morals or brains! Something isn't working right in their brain for sure!
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Dastard Stepchild Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
87. In the state of Illlinois...
an individual can receive a mandatory sentence of 4 to 15 years for possessing a half a tablespoon of cocaine. Animal abusers often get nothing more than probation or a stern warning. It seems like a skewed sense of priorities to me. I'd like to see those charges flip-flopped.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
88. Wrap 'em in bacon, tie 'em to a post...
and let's see how well they trained their dogs.

:evilgrin:
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
90. As awful as you can legally do. People who torture animals are sociopaths
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tulip Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
91. Prison, Public Humiliation & Banned from the NFL
I have no doubt that he will be punished for his crimes.......here and in the next life. Only cowards fight dogs. Only cowards hurt and abuse another living creature.........be they human or animal. I want Michael Vick to live with public humiliation for the rest of his life. This may seem harsh because he has not been found guilty but it's a Federal Indictment and they only issue one if the case is rock solid. Only 5% of Federal Indictments have ended in a "not guilty" verdict. Until his trial the NFL and the Falcons should suspend him from participating in games. It will only further taint the Atlanta Falcons team. Vick has an opportunity to turn this around by changing but I doubt he has the courage to do that.

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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
92. SERIOUS JAIL TIME. nt
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