Dave Lindorff: Office Arrest: The Shame of John Conyers

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/25015


Office Arrest: The Shame of John Conyers
Submitted by dlindorff on Tue, 2007-07-24 02:58. Impeachment

By Dave Lindorff

If Rosa Parks had lived two years longer, what happened today in the halls of Congress might have killed her. It certainly would have broken her heart.

Rep. John Conyers, venerable member of Congress, finally chair of the House Judiciary Committee, a man who worked with Parks in Alabama and then hired her on his staff after he won election to Congress in Detroit, today had several dozen impeachment activists, including Gold Star Families for Peace founder Cindy Sheehan, Iraq Veteran Against the War activist Lennox Yearwood and Intelligence Veterans for Sanity founder Ray McGovern arrested for conducting a sit-in in his office in the Rayburn House Office Building.

The three, together with several hundred other impeachment activists who packed the fourth floor hallway outside Rep. Conyers’ office, had come to press Conyers to take action on impeachment, and specifically to start action on H.Res. 333, the bill submitted nearly three months ago by Rep. Dennis Kucinich calling for the impeachment of Vice President Dick Cheney.

After nearly an hour of talking with Conyers, a clearly angry Sheehan emerged together with Yearwood and McGovern, and announced to the waiting throng in the hall that Conyers had told them “impeachment isn’t going to happen because we don’t have the votes.” Sheehan said Conyers had insisted that the best thing was for Democrats to focus on “winning big in 2008.”

To a loud and angry chorus of boos and hisses, the three went back inside Conyers’ office suite, where they were joined by some 30 other supporters, and all were subsequently arrested, at Conyers’ request, by Capitol police, who cuffed them and walked them off for booking. Several of those who sat in refused to walk and were carried or dragged out of the Rayburn Office Building, as the activists in the hall chanted “Shame on Conyers! Shame on Conyers!” and “Arrest Bush, Not the People!”

It was a thoroughly disgraceful scene wholly unworthy of a dean of the Congressional Black Caucus.

more...

experience, intelligence, integrity, heart, veracity - over anyone else's in this scenario - any day.

the inevitable imo. Lindorff is making that point.

he was around in 1988 and they had the same calculus.

Tell me... did I miss President Dukakis Presidency?

I'm not sure I've misunderstood you enough.

and back then they refused to go after Raegan over Iran Contra, and they gave essentially the same reasons

You do know that dukakis never took the oath of office, right?

with an even bigger idiot for a campaign manager.

A donut could have beat him.

The public LOVED Reagan. He would have never been impeached.

so who is the democrat to be declared an idiot to be sacrificed on the altar of political expediency?

they're nearly all idiots.

Though I'd choose which ever one is stoopid enough to make an ad riding in a tank. :P

is still your response then let me ask you: then where the FUCK is conyer's "intelligence," his "integrity," his "heart," and his "veracity"?

this shit is killing us--absolutely KILLING US!

the dems are running congress and the congress is a toilet flush away from being ineffectual (14 percent approval rating means PEOPLE THINK CONGRESS IS SHIT!)

now, WHY do people think congress is shit?

maybe because THEY BITCH AND MOAN AND WHINE AND COMPLAIN AND SIT ON THEIR FUCKING HANDS.

and now conyers has sheehan arrested? give me a fucking break!

IS EVERYONE TAKING CRAZY PILLS?????

and in conyer's "adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty" (the defination of integrity) he appears to have misdirected it on the WRONG PERSON, THE WRONG SIDE, THE INNOCENT RATHER THAN THE GUILTY!!!

btw--did you hear about the fema trailers? and the formaldehyde in them? and how we're giving them to some Native American communities? oh good. let's arrest cindy sheehan!

and at the same time attacks Dems for being too single minded?

WTF?

up with these trailers, not wanting to test the ones people have been living in and getting sick in from that formaldehyde, and now they are giving them to native american communities.....AND WHY ISN'T CONYERS GOING AFTER THEIR ASSES? THEY SHOULD ALL BE FUCKING ARRESTED! but instead, he has cindy sheehan arrested. (like that will really help everyone. arrest her, but let the bushco crimes go on.) looks like he decided to take the super easy way out.

you think we can at least get some inherent contempt out of him regarding harriet miers? or is he going to go the more traditional route?

You want Dems to go after these people and Impeach and convict Bush and end the Iraq war by defunding and brining the troops immediately home.

With a razor thin majority and a Repig in the White House?

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I'd say the answer to that is - at least one person and their syncophants.

thanks for being part of the problem.

maybe we ought to consider recalling him and putting someone who will conduct such proceedings in his place! Is he a DINO, or a progressive? Will he represent the people and speak truth to power, or will he knuckle under to the entrenched forces financed by corporate greed? This is a do or die moment in history. We need action, not more hearings! Not more "non-binding resolutions"! Not more "sense of the Congress" votes! He promised action, but, so far, nothing substantive has come out of his office! He hasn't even released "contempt of Congress" citations in over 10 days since Meyers refused to testify. I aks again, is he a DINO? What evidence is there to the contrary?

Conyers has done more to battle this administration than 90% of the other reps in Congress.

more votes.
And besides Sheehan, Ray McGovern was there today; these two people were with him when the DSMs were finally introduced by Conyers.

They're not picking on him, they're picking on the chairman of the judiciary committee.

This must be hard for him, too. :(

:(

where people are just as likely to chant "impeach" as "bring them home". I met him in January, shortly after he said we could fire Junior. :shrug:

He's in a very tough spot right now and so are his many admirers and supporters who feel they have to hold their ground. Heartbreak Hotel.

possible impeachment (HR 635)

Now that the Democrats have a majority, only a year later, Conyers thinks impeachment is no longer an option? WTF???

Doesn't make any sense.

Either way, Cheney and company can rest easily and their damage unaddressed. I might add if he is talking about the senate, it's pure conjecture.

I have his book (autographed) about George W. Bush vs. The constitution and while he compiled all that, he sure didn't sound like someone that would put impeachment on the shelf. Anyway, without people like him, hope dies.

want to botch what looks like a great cycle for them in 2008. (I can hardly blame them: imho, they will do very well.)

And, there's also at least one front runner who doesn't want the specter of impeachment floating around at this particular moment.

That's two ideas, I guess.

Without rehashing...Conyers can't win here. He procedes without solid evidence...only political charges and the impeachment ends up turning into a personality pissing match (with the help of our beloved corporate media) and when it gets shot down in the Senate, he's viewed as the failure. He holds his powder until he can get the evidence...of real criminality (and its there we just can't get at it) and makes a stronger, more compelling case, but that isn't fast enough for many...so again he's viewed as a failure. He's trying to find a way to manuever in the minefield with a regime that will obstruct and stonewall on one side and now people on his left trying to force him to push their agenda.

I've seen this man in action for nearly 35 years. I trust his knowledge of the Constitution, the procedure and the rule of law. I'm sure he's extremely frustrated as he is being looked at as some superman who can force impeachment...rather than using his skills and position to do what is really needed here...to slow down this runaway executive and defund the Iraq fiasco. Unfortunately a political impeachment won't accomplish either.

:hi:

He's got a ton of evidence but the political situation is as tense as possible. And yes, he is a hero to the left and they want him to behave as a hero would -- tall buildings, speeding trains, I agree.

And, I want him to do that, too, because as far as I can tell, lives depend on slowing these criminals down.

And then there's the distressing part of having to disagree with a senior statesman who is beloved. :(

It's gonna be an interesting Fall, Kharma Train. I hope we all do well.

:wtf: are you talking about? What. The. Fuck. ???

What does this guy have to do? Can I get some examples of some scenarios please?

Anyone?

What would it take?

Direct evidence that either had been directly involved in a real, prosecutable crime...obstruction, perjury. Impeachments have been based on a criminal referal...Nixon being named an undicted co-conspirator and the infamous Starr screed in the Clinton inquisition...both had direct crimes that were used as the basis of the procedures.

You don't have to sell me on the need to impeach. I'm way, way, way beyond that. I want criminal prosecutions here...war crimes have been committed, many have committed crimes...and I want them ALL to be held responsible for their crimes.

A scenario would be the forcing a Bolton or Miers into a jail cell until this regime releases the thousands of memos and destroys its sham use of "Executive Privildge" thus compelling those called before Conyers to testify or face more grey bar hotel time. We start peeling away the onion and get to the real crimes rather than the surface ones. This evidence is then refered to various courts to prosecute Rove, Gonzo and other goons for purjury and violations of the Hatch act...then impeach both booosh and cheney based on the evidence gathered in those prosecutions. Yes, it won't happen tomorrow, but it can and must happen.

Then we go onto the Hague and a trial of all the crimes committed in their war for profit. If you want the justice for those crimes, it'll happen in the Hague, not in Washington. Again...the best results right now are in forcing this regime to be on the defensive...and force it into accountability.

has already ruled that the warrantless wiretapping program is a felony.

And Bush has taken credit for it on national television.

Was booosh himself named as being criminally complicit in this? His regime, yes...but him personally? Did he give the orders? He can take credit, but where are the memos or tapes with booosh's voice or handwriting stating such? You're doing guilt by association...fine in debating points, poor in a court of law.

"but where are the memos or tapes with booosh's voice or handwriting stating such?"

Well, that's what an Impeachment investigation is for...

The public statements of responsibility may not hold up in court by themselves, but they certainly provide ample cause to initiate an investigation.

The differences many have here on the topic is where to put the cart and the horse. Some want the impeachment first then write the charges or let the investigation catch up. Yes, we need investigations to dig up ALL the crimes this regime have committed. To date what we've learned have been through the hubris of people like Abramoff and Foley and other crooks whose crime were so overt they couldn't be spun away. But that's not the case with a lot of what this regime does...and it was designed to be totally stealth from the outset. Fred Fielding didn't just come up with obstructions and roadblocks out of nowhere, this was based on years of Repugnican think tanks and a carefully orchestrated plans that would ensure the "unitary executive" we now are suffering under.

The only way to break this criminal enterprise is via criminal means, not political ones. We've seen too many times where a solid political argument gets perverted by the corporate media. We need to force this regime's hand with Inherent Contempt. It must be brought to heel with the threat of jail time if supboenas aren't honored...and we could see how quickly boooshie gave Scooter his get out of jail card that these people fear the grey bar hotel almost as they did the military.

This is not a quick fix here. It took years to create all the mayhem that's going on. There are fires all around and limited water. We can scatter the water all around and not be as effective as consentrating that water on the most dangerous flames...create the route for more water to be brought in to douse the totally extinguish the flames in the future...leave no ember buring! This will take years. Hell, we're still learning about all the crap Nixon pulled...listen to his conversation with Erlichmann in Sicko...who would have thought how this would have affected us all these years later??

Cheers...

out of committee and having them ratified by the House will allow the committee to begin an investigation with full force.

The vote is the horse, the investigation is the cart.

The Judiciary works like a grand jury...the House as the jury and the Senate as the appellate in ths process. The articles are your indictment...the charges and they need to be based on evidence that is brought forth through investigations.

Right now we have a serious impasse in getting that evidence. This regime has thrown a massive wall of Executive privilidge...or more sand...in Conyers eyes. It's a deliberate move to avoid getting the evidence inwhich the charges can be based. Thus my call for pushing for the Inherent Contempt that would destroy the Executive privilidge claim and compell people like Meiers and Goodling and Taylor and Rove and Gonzo to testify under oath, on record or face going to jail. And if they lie, then we have pejury trials. In the end, the evidence can be built for the entire criminal enterprise. Yep...it's gonna be like taking down the mafia and we know how long its taken for that to happen.

The method you describe is only one option.

From ThinkQuest:

What is Impeachment?

Horse..

snip- The process begins when formal charges are brought against the official in question. These are examined by an independent prosecutor designated by a House judiciary committee and the Attorney General of the United States. They are then presented to the House of Representatives in a report.

then cart....

snip- An impeachment proceeding can begin with a direct impeachment resolution or an inquiry of impeachment resolution. An inquiry of impeachment resolution differs from a direct impeachment resolution in that an inquiry constitutes a preliminary investigation. While a direct impeachment resolution simply call for a vote to impeach the official, an inquiry resolution commences an inquiry into whether an impeachment resolution would be appropriate. It is a prudent first step in the impeachment process.

If the Judiciary Committee finds the grounds for resolution if impeachment exists. It may then submit the articles of impeachment to the House for a vote...

http://library.thinkquest.org/25185/impeach.htm

During the Inquiry of Impeachment process the Judiciary Committee may exercise it's maximum powers of investigation.

Because if that is a real picture, then that would count as evidence!

But it isn't, is it?

REAL evidence is what counts. For example, not just saying the NSA wiretapping has been going on. REAL evidence - who has been wiretapped, what dates, records of officials speaking about it. That's what real evidence is. We don't have it. We have conjecture, and a president who has said publically that what he's done is perfectly fine.

We can get the evidence, and we might be able to use the White House's excuses and stonewalling as evidence too. But we don't have it right now.

Sheesh. :banghead:

You impeach now people like to talk about how a prosecutor doesn't base a case on whether he has the votes in the jury to convict beforehand - he also doesn't start the proceedings in the courtroom without a case being built!

the democratic party does not matter

this is about the country and the constitution

There is another agenda operating here.

I think I do recall how he said is not for impeachment, and he wants these thugs to squirm.

Does he mean in his commitee, in the House, or in the Senate?

Each one has it's own implications.

:shrug:

I'm not following you on the 'pure conjecture' - are you saying there are sufficient #'s of Republican Senators who would cross the party line and vote to convict?

If so, can I see their names so I can go visit them at their offices?

:wtf:
Is Conyers schizophrenic?

He is one of our best hopes! What is happening with the Dems in DC?

All because they didn't get the answer they wanted. The point is, anyone who protest in a Congressional Office, gets arrested, it's not like this is the only time it's happened.

Lots of Americans were pissed off when the tea was thrown overboard. Merchants who had no tea to sell, colonists who had no tea to drink. Hey, if you do something meaningful, you are always going to piss someone off.

that would get people's attentions.

Is occupying John Conyers office meaningful?

Is it as meaningful as throwing the tea overboard was for the colonists? By the way, that wasn't any big watershed moment for the start of American Revolution, just one of the most memorable, and it wasn't "the people" who were the instigators of going to war with England anyway. The ruling elite in this country had to be convinced it was the right thing to do first.

they were not rabble rousing rioters raging through the streets with pitchforks. They were the rich ruling elite. They were thoughtful intellects, most of their damage was done with the pen.

I agree. "Wahhh, we didn't get our way NOW, so I'm going to hold my breath!"

they've lost their friggin minds.

They are the disgrace. Not Conyers. There IS NO SHAME of John Conyers. His life, his career, is filled with nothing but things we should be proud of.

Afterdowningstreet can go fuck themselves. They have lost their fucking minds and are attacking one of the most stand up and respect congresspeople that has ever graced either party.

I have to say for the first time, they've actually pissed me the fuck off for real. Fuck them.

:mad:

you again, so argue with someone else. :eyes:

I've been annoyed by them in the past. I've laughed at them in the past. I've mocked them in the past.

This is the first time they've actually truly pissed me off, trying to assassinate the character of a man with the decency of John Conyers.

They should be ASHAMED of themselves. The author should be ASHAMED of himself. You want to talk overreaction? They are overreacting. They have gone so far off the edge of sanity they no longer have any credibility whatsoever. Their attacks on John prove it. They can go fuck themselves. They are irrational, extremist and as ignorant as anything I've ever seen. I once supported them so much, and I'm almost embarrassed now to admit it. How could I ever have supported people who turned out to be so naive, so closed minded, so ignorant, so irrational? God it kills me I once cheered them on. They've lost their fucking minds. I swear to God.

<snip>

This reporter subsequently called Conyers’ press office for an explanation of Conyers’ true position on impeachment. Only a few days earlier the congressman, visiting a San Diego meeting on health care reform, had told members of Progressive Democrats of America that it was time to “take these two guys (Bush and Cheney) out” and had promised that if just “a few more” members of the House signed on to the Kucinich bill (it already has 14 co-sponsors), he would move it forward for consideration in his Judiciary Committee. Asked how that statement squared with what he had told the group of activists in his office, the spokesman said Conyers’ “must have been misunderstood” in San Diego. He said that in view of Conyers’ statement to Sheehan and the others today, the Kucinich bill was “not going to go anywhere.”

As impeachment activist David Swanson of AfterDowningStreet.org has said, there “seems to be two John Conyers,” one who, in 2005 and early 2006, while Republicans controlled the House, was systematically making the case for impeaching the president and vice president (he had even submitted a bill, with 39 co-sponsors, which called for creation of a select committee to investigate possible impeachable crimes by the administration), and one who, submitting to the wishes of the new House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, was keeping impeachment “off the table.”

Occasionally the former Conyers breaks out, saying things such as that the president needs to be “taken out” or, as he put it at an anti-war rally last spring, that “we can fire him!” But then the other Conyers comes to the fore, and stands in the way of impeachment action.

This time, however, it was worse than just doing nothing. The arrest of impeachment activists and their forcible eviction from his office was a betrayal of people who were doing the very kind of thing that had allowed Conyers to make his way into Congress in the first place: sitting in to insist on action on their demands for justice. It was, after all, sit-ins that helped lead to the Voting Rights Act which allowed African American candidates like Conyers to finally win seats in the US Congress.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the Democratic Party—Congressional Black Caucus and Progressive Caucus included--has become nothing but a dried out husk, living on old glories and devoid of any principle other than returning its elected officials to their offices and their perks, year after year. As one angry activist in the hallway remarked, “Where is today’s (Rep. Allard) Lowenstein or Father Drinan. There is none!”

It’s ironic that Rep. Conyers, speaking in 2005 on “Democracy Now!” following Rosa Parks’ death at the age of 92, said her passing “is probably the end of an era.” Certainly, with his request to have Capitol Police officers enter his office (the very office where Parks once had worked as a staff member!) to cuff and arrest peaceful protesters who were trying to defend the Constitution, he has made that point far more clearly than he could have expressed it in mere words.

But as in the case of Rosa Parks and the Civil Rights movement, arrests and fines will not stop the national grassroots drive to impeach this president and vice president. With polls showing that a majority of the country now favors impeachment, and with Conyers, Pelosi, and the Democratic Congress sinking deeper and deeper into disfavor even as the president continues to add to his list of Constitutional crimes, something’s gotta give. After all, the Founders, in writing impeachment into the Constitution, did not say the test was whether Congress had the votes to impeach. They wrote that if the president abused his power, or committed other high crimes and misdemeanors, bribery or treasson, Congress "shall" impeach.

The American public has made it clear: we want impeachment and we want the troops home.

If Congress doesn’t act on these two key issues, they will not get that “big win” Conyers’ called for in 2008.

<snip>

Link: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/25015

:shrug:

Their level of irrational ignorance is EVERY SINGLE BIT AS BAD as the equal extremism from the right.

Meet kettle. Kettle uses all caps. Pot holds grudges. You two should get along great.

:rofl:

abortion doctors!! :sarcasm:

You need to give it a rest. You are clearly losing that crime of a mind you got there.

:shrug:

I'm just amazed that this simple bit of reality escapes some people who scream at how bush and his repuke buddies avoid reality.

THEY NEED TO GET THE VOTES.

when they can't even get enough repuke support to end the war or even put a timetable on withdrawal? Even with 70% of the American people against the war the repukes aren't budging on that. A few have broken away, but none of them are putting their votes where their mouths are.

and making such a ruckus that the media could simply not ignore it. I'd make them go on record as supporting the traitors who have destroyed this nation.

house initiates impeachment
house has thirty more dems than republicons

house impeaches the fuckheads (cheney & bush)

those votes are not there unless. Fuckheads remain in office and war rages on.

Not with the rethugs who still might want to try to win an election.

a friend of mine has three foster kids. all the kids had been repeatedly raped by their father. the kids all had physicals which show what damage had been done to them. the kids would not talk about this to social workers for a long time. two of the kids finally start talking and admitting what happened. kid A tells the story of one incident. kid B tells another story of another incident. because their stories don't match they are deemed not credible. (despite the fact that this happened repeatedly and across YEARS)

the county prosecutor will not prosecute the case because they don't think they can win it ("we don't prosecute sexual abuse in this county")

1. it's their job to prosecute, regardless of the outcome. make the case!

2. how do they know they can't win unless they try

3. who the fuck made the prosecutor judge and jury?

now, we impeached clinton and that goes down in the history books. you explain to me why bush & cheney don't deserve at least the same result. and why bush/cheney will be omitted from the paragraph on impeachment in the history books.

and then tell me where congress is getting their crystal balls because i'd like one.

it's about if it can be done.

We could probably impeach both of them, but getting them out of office is another matter altogther. Two thirds of the senate is needed. Because of the very slim majority, it's not going to happen unless you get about fifteen repukes willing to convict george bush and/or cheney.

If the dems can't even get the votes together to at least get a timetable for withdrawal, the chances of getting the votes to get cheney and bush out of office are even less.

The repukes made impeachment a weak tool when they went after Clinton. He stayed in office despite them and the repukes couldn't get the votes together to force him out. Now, when impeachment and conviction is really deserved and needed...it won't happen.

by doing the process...

That's the way nixon was done in...

What part of that process doesn't DU understand??? :shrug:

I'm just amazed that this simple bit of reality escapes some people who scream at how bush and his repuke buddies avoid reality and scream at anti-war folks who keep wanting to end war...

There may be disagreement here, but there is no confusion.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1396667

That's why. I don't subscribe to the notion you have to convict. You just have to get all the facts out for the people whose only reality is what they see on the TV machine. I'm sure CNN and MSNBC will cover it 24\7. They'd get huge ratings too.

And if enough shit came out, you just might get enough Republicans to vote to impeach.

But conviction is NOT the threshold test for Impeachment.

:shrug:

It won't get bush removed from office. It won't end the war. Conviction is the only way to get bush out of office.

That somehow repukes would turn on him when they wouldn't on the Iraq war? That corporate media would handle it evenly so the American people would know the truth even though majority want the war to end? That bush would finally start listening to the will of the people and abide by the rule of law?

The thing is, the bush administration and the repukes in general don't operate on logic. They prefer flipping the bird at the constitution and ignoring everything else.

It will force a vote out of every chickenshit politician on either side of the aisle, who will have to defend that vote when they try to defend their seat in congress. And that little butt-puckering experience is one that I think all members of congress who swore the oath to defend the constitution when they took office need to have.

Unless you think the Constitution is "quaint" notion?

:shrug:

I just think that the repukes value party over country. They've pulled their pants down and squatted over the constitution so many times that a toilet paper dispenser had to be installed.

If they were so afraid for their jobs, they would have changed their tune a long time ago.

is that what you are arguing for?

by the way, you did enjoy the Dukakis adminstration right?

Our failure to act over Iran Contra may have cost us that election

Did you know the Dems made the same arguments you are making right now?

and misconduct to light as fast as they can, forcing the issue to a head. They are doing a tremendous job. If they can get Bush/Cheney to the point where a Constitutional crisis is forced, where these two and others in their administration can be clearly charged with contempt of Congress, etc., then they've got them. The Repubs would be forced to push Cheney and Bush to resign. Of course because of the rotten media not explaining what's going on to the American public, and because the Republicans in Congress seem to all be corrupt (IMO) that hasn't happened already, though it clearly should have.

state re Bush & the war, would cover this fairly? They lied and misrepresented all the way through the Clinton impeachment debacle. Even the NYT misrepresented what was going on. I watched every judiciary hearing on CSPAN, where by the way, Conyers was a HERO as always. I saw the way the media was misrepresenting what was going on. The whole Clinton impeachment could never have happened if it weren't for the media's complicity.

Why would anyone think that would change and suddenly they'd report what was happening in a Bush/Cheney impeachment process? They won't. CSPAN doesn't even get to cover progressive issues in an equal manner like they could before Bush took over and the FCC is controlled by the Rethugs. The press/media will bash the hell out of Democrats every step of the way and make this all about politics. And they do still have influence over the public, who still are easy to brainwash.

We've got to take back the media before we can make any real progress.

DU is a great place to communicate and collaborate to bring about needed change. But what is lacking here more often than not is basic knowledge and understanding about how our government works, about systems and processes, about what it takes to get a job done. We all need to spend more time learning how it all works and the more we do, the more we understand the complexities, the better chance we have of defeating this fascist takeover of our country. We can stop flailing about and put our shoulders behind pushing in the right direction.

In the meantime, we have to stop bashing our outstanding Democrats -- not just Conyers, but people like Rush Holt, for starters. Sure, go after the really proven bad democrats like Lieberman, Christopher Dodd and Steny Hoyer. We must get rid of them. But when we go after the good guys, believe me when I say we drain them of the strength they need to do the job we want done. We work against the best interests of the country -- it's self-defeating and destructive toward reaching our goals. There is some good information in this thread about how things work. Check it out if you don't believe it at least entertain the ideas presented.

That alone is enough of a reason, IMO.

from office when they can't even get a timetable on withdrawal from Iraq?

nixon was not even IMPEACHED...

Enough publicity and losing the backing of the public caused him to resign (after he'd fixed it with that fuck ford to get a pardon)...

Begin the process in earnest NOW...

They'd only be doing their fucking job!!!

Here's their job description:

"I, Loyal Citizen of the Republic, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."

when barbara bush (shudder) calls him up and tells him to get his ass out of his father's White House... :)

:)

he is very close to it.

"The current Democratic strategy of fighting and losing legislative battles over symbolic resolutions of disapproval or meaningless votes of no confidence only invites the consolidation of the Bush-Cheney vision of an all-powerful presidency. The Democratic fecklessness also alienates the only logical allies in the fight to save the Republic, millions of citizens alarmed at the Bush-Cheney power grab."

My point exactly!

conviction is NOT the threshold test for Impeachment

Because she continually asserts that impeachment will "end the death and destruction."

I really thought he was building the case for impeachment. Remember him delivering all those signatures to the white house gate? That passion?There does seem to be contradictory statements coming from him.
I should know better than to get my hopes up.

The Conyer's Hearings into the crimes of the bush crime family with the intent of promulgating Articles of Impeachment against bush and cheney was the ONLY reason I was extra glad the Dems won in '06...

...these people do not have a right to occupy Conyer's office. Conyers was elected to occupy that office by his constituents. When his constituents vote to have someone else there, then that person can occupy the office.



Does everyone get to do that? Do the pro-lifers get to occupy and INSIST ON ACTION for their agenda?

Conyers met with them, gave them his time, and I'm sure agrees with their ultimate aims.

White mob takes over black man's office and tells him what to do.

Rosa Parks my ass.

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I do know this sort of bullshit attack on our congressional leaders does not belong here. If I want to read thread after thread bashing the Democrats and our Democratic leaders I would go fucking read FR.

Jesus Christ, they need to go make a Cindy and Fanboi web site and post this crap there instead of here.

People cheerleading Cindy's gang for attacking Conyers are definitely on the WRONG FUCKING WEBSITE.

No one's worked harder than Conyers and he told them the truth. This is how he gets repaid. Despite my disagreement with Cindy Sheehan over a few things I still held respect for her, but not anymore.

She did some real damage here and it wasn't to Conyers.

I thought they held a sitin in his office, I sure didn't hear anything about any attack.

Half a million humans dead in Iraq and you feel nothing, or next to nothing.

Now you actually get pissed off.

Good. You should be pissed off.

mission accomplished!

Are you now angry at Cindy because she's pushing for impeachment, or because the person she's pushing is a Dem?

Understanding the basis of your anger is important.

I'm angry at Bush for trashing the constitution, and I'm angry at the Dems for doing nothing to stop it now that they have the power to actually do something.

I guess I'm most worried that they are just running out the clock because they calculate they can achieve the most political gain that way, instead of stranding up for our constitution.

misdirect their anger just to get themselves heard. They trash good people just to get headlines and reactions. It's disingenuous, it's divisive and it doesn't help the process. It seems that this isn't just about the war anymore, but it's some sort of battle for a moral high ground.

I'm not angry at any one person, I'm angry at all of the enablers on all sides who are using people for their own purposes, including our soldiers. As usual, it's the people who are stuck in the middle.

By the way, I'm also tired of hearing the Democrats are doing NOTHING. Maybe they aren't doing enough in your eyes, maybe they aren't doing what you want them to do. But they aren't doing NOTHING.

enter into production agreements with the multinational oil companies. bush signed it into law. My biggest concern with that is that if Iraq does transfer control of their oil to the mutinationals, that we will be stuck inforcing the contracts and providing securirty for oil company profits.

You are correct. They aren't doing nothing. They are doing something, but it's in the opposite direction of pulling out the troops.


I was happy that Harry Reid pulled the Defense funding bill. Perhaps that will yield some postitive results.

is to... attack our own? Very clever of them.

I'm out of patience for this type of useless grandstanding, myself.

and is trying to bring our troops home and impeach the weasels that started the war,
over ANY person in the current Congress of the USA, any time. Votes or money, she gets mine.

Just saying.

:pals: MKJ

If that's all some are going to say the argument boils down to, then my god I need say no more.

Goodnight.

Do you listen to them, too?

Or is there some survey of the opinions of the mothers of dead troops that you want me to read? I'm not sure what the point of your question is.

I'm really really sorry for her loss - but she DOESN"T GET A PASS because of it.

There seem to be quite a few of us nobodies these days. Like the numbers were increasing.

Are you giving equal time to all the REPUBLICAN MOTHERS who lost children?

Well, are you?

I'm not saying I support them. But JHFC - just because "Cindy lost a son" doesn't make her some kind of f'ing SAINT!

She DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ME. She stopped speaking for me when she stopped making good sense.

I'm sorry,.

I'd best go to bed now before I get really ticked off.

Been in the Lounge lately?

Lots of pain going around for good people.

Lots of pain going around. Period.

You're right I'm tired. I'm angry. I'm sad. I'm - - -

going to bed.

I hope you sleep well. If I contributed to your not sleeping well, I'm sorry, that was not my intent, I hate it when I don't get a good sleep.

It's addictive!!! :P

I used to not either - but - I ventured in. Once. Twice. Hooked. B-)

Certainly a place to let your hair down.

Certainly a place to actually talk with people about themselves instead of "just" arguing endlessly.

Come on in. We'll pour you some coffee in the morning or offer you a drink at night. Always a shoulder to lean on, cry on. Always someone to make you laugh or smile.


As for the not sleeping thing - (besides bouts of insomnia and menopause) I was up 'til 2:30-ish two nights running reading HP, doncha know?

a website from the moms, or anyone. I haven't gone there, because it's been none of my business. But if they want to stop this war by their pics or thoughts, let's do it.

World War I - Wilson (D)
World War II - FDR (D)
VietNam covert aid to French - Truman (D)
Korea - Truman (D)
Vietnam War - Kennedy(D)/Johnson(D)

Yeah, right :sarcasm:

Electing Anti-War Dems would end war but none of the current alleged "front runners" are really anti-war candidates.

ObamClintWards are the anti-the-unpopular-Iraq-War-now-that-it's-popular-to-do-so candidates.

Vietnam involvement - first advisors/$$ under Truman, Eisenhower escalated.

Ending wars aren't as easy as people would like to believe, either.

"Ending wars aren't as easy as people would like to believe"

That's why Kucinich has the right idea -- cut the military to the minimum necessary for direct defense and create a Department of Peace...

Make it a hell of a lot harder to start another fucking war and you won't have to stop it again later...

"U.S. military advisers first became involved in Vietnam in 1950 <Truman (D)>, assisting French colonial forces. In 1956, these advisers assumed full responsibility for training the Army of the Republic of Vietnam <Eisenhower (R)>.

President John F. Kennedy (D) increased America's troop numbers from 500 to 16,000. Large numbers of combat troops were dispatched by President Lyndon Johnson (D) beginning in 1965."

And the Dems we elected ended the war and they stopped bush from destroying our country!

Oh - never mind :crazy:

She has more of a dog in this fight than John Conyers does. Cindy has also done MORE to end the damn war and impeach the bastards who started it than John Conyers or anyone else in Congress has done. Hell, she's done more than all of Congress put together.

she's a freaking miracle worker that cindy.

Just ONE.

I'll be waiting . . .

it's not worth it.

Cause there aren't any.

I just realized last night after I started writing - to whom I was responding and realized I was wasting my time and effort.

You have your beliefs and NOTHING will sway you.

Barbara Lee, Lynne Woolsey, Pete Stark, Cynthia McKinney (until she was ambushed by the Dem-Puke Party), etc. etc.

There are a lot of Progressives who have done as much or more to bring an end to ALL war.

Unless they have a son/daughter serving in Iraq, or have lost a son/daughter in Iraq, what do they have to lose? What do they really care?

her goal? She's now trying to impose that others "impeach or else." Sorry, I'll take a war vet with a SOLID liberal/progressive record over just about anyone...

:)

and they chose to keep impeachment off the table over the crimes commited by one Ronald Wilson Reagan

Now those aganst Impeachment who repeat the usual talking points

Please answer this.

Did I sleep through the Dukakis administration?

And are these people refusing to LEARN from history?

They've done it once... and they are about to do it again.

Just saying.

do they want to win in 2008? And if not, why?

It would lend credence to the theory that the two parties are a sham, no?

(Personally at the activist level no way, no how, but at those levels ... I'm starting to have my doubts)

The two parties are indeed a sham, at least in part, at the national level. If you watch the show for a while it's perfectly obvious that much of what passes for political dialog is a sham, a drama, with actors playing their parts to bamboozle the Rubes.

I think the issues with impeachment are two:

1.) They don't want to discredit foreign adventures, the empire must continue, hence they don't want to impeach Bush for that. They might need to start a war themselves one of these days. If Bush is ever impeached, it will not be for the war.

2.) They don't want the Republican party completely destroyed, they don't want a real mandate, then there would be no exuse for not doing much about the issues that they were elected to address. Although the VERY Democratic Congress did a remarkable job of stonewalling Jimmy Carter back in 1977, so they can be very creative about finding ways to avoid addressing domestic needs. But anyway, they like things divided and gridlocked most of the time, and then they pass the important stuff unanimously at 1:00AM.

Unless they fear losing control of the somewhat rigged election system because of public arousal, there will be no real movement, no real reform. That is why raising hell is good.

But in everyday practice, when it comes to statesmen formulating policy, there are significant differences between the two. Oligarchies are the same everywhere, no?

So, "the party" is like a gem that changes depending on the light you're holding it up to. It will look different if you look at HRC or at the guy who faithfully walks this precinct rain or shine even in San Francisco.

The most progressive ideas have historically come from third parties -- abolition, suffrage and so on. But, the Democrats have been the most successful at making those ideas into implemented policy, as far as I can tell. And that is worth defending at all costs, to my mind.

/oops

The point is that none of the stakeholders in the current situation has any real interest in seriously rocking the boat, or in empowering new politcal players or outsiders, or in any genuine political reform. There may be a few exceptions, based on rhetorical positions, it's hard to be sure unless they get enough power so they COULD do something if they were motivated.

John Dean was right. This is MUCH worse than Watergate. We have many fewer actual statesmen than we did then and far more PR compositions.

Let's see how we do.

:shrug:

If you pay attention, you will notice that the most amazing shit gets passed with no debate at all sort of under the table every once in a while.

And people are getting really, really angry about that.

.

for a third party.

What other shit would you like to stir up? Do it now because I have a ball game to watch. :)

you are so worthy to listen to. You make me think, even when or if I respond. Especially posts like this.

Thank you. Keep on bringing this stuff you remember up.

And BTW, IMPEACH! IF NOT NOW, WHEN? You can't even have a run-off; there's never been anyone worse.

not that it helps these days, except to see the grand events, and how behavior repeats itself

But, I had completely forgotten about that, until I was reminded of it in this book

The genious of Impeachment by John Nichols

I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one of the major candidates, if not all, come out for impeachment between now and January.

It is outrageous.

Civil disobedience has a long and illustrious history in this country, and we are not done with the need for it just yet.

I really don't give a damn anymore.

Nobody on this planet is perfect unless Cindy says they are, or unless Dave L. says they are.

I am not perfect, and I get mad at Dems.

If Cindy is running against the speaker of the House as an independent, this board should call inself progressive independent or progressive PDA or something else.

you are pretty rabid in your anger, and I really don't get it.

Cindy claims not to be a Democrat, she has contempt for most of them. yet she and her supporters are dominating DU.

She can't post at Kos...he stopped it right away.

Yet it is like a takeover here....and she is not a Democratic candidate.

And Lindorff doesn't like Democrats. We have written him to correct stuff...he never does. Dean wrote him once to correct something not true...he did not.

These days I feel like I am walking in RW land. Thread after thread bashing the Democrats and our leaders. People posting crap from authors using dead civil rights activists to beat the friend of the dead person over the head. Posts calling a very liberal civil rights congressman an Uncle Tom? WTF?

I am seriously considering looking for a different forum, since this one seems lost to the insanity if Cindy and her gang of drooling fans.

that is the way the Repukes operate. They will trash anybody to get their way. They will use anybody to get what they want.

I think the idea was to target the chair of the appropriate House committee. In any case it's not a high-school football kind of thing where you just root for everyone with the same school colors, it's about policy, and people petitioning their representatives in order to change policy, and civil disobedience when they won't listen.

And they still threw a tantrum like little children.

But then Cindy is running as an independent, and Dave doesn't like Democrats much. So they don't care if their actions hurt Democrats.

It's all publicity at this point.

or to impeach.

oops!

Pelosi is up there in the spotlight now, she's going to get a lot of attention. The people that live in the Bay Area are not sheep.

and give Congress over to the GOP again.

That'll work really well.

Put their money where their mouths are. Get it over with.

Attacking Conyers who is on the PDA board along with Cindy and David Swanson and most of the others there at the arrest today seems silly.

Whatever she does, I don't think she's going to be a Republican. I mean you never know, but that doesn't seem like the right way to bet right now anyway.

It is not about getting back the white house at all.

I have lots of mixed feelings, but this is overboard.

I don't give that much of a heck about the White House, things being as they are. We don't really need a Democratic Emperor instead of a Republican one. We need a President that obeys the Constitution and a Congress that does likewise, and ONLY the Congress has the power to force that to happen. It's the weasels in Congress I want to replace. It is also the easiest place to mount a populist insurgency.

I will say, it's not about enhanced power for a political party.

Dead is forever. If the Dems are willing to watch the death of the constitution and the death of many more human beings in a cynical attempt to win more power, then they will reap what they sow.

Political parties come and go. Once the constitution is dead, once your child is dead, or your daddy or your mommy or your sister or brother, it's forever.

And while we are at it let's intimidate Pelosi.

Good job.

I won't criticize you for it, except to point out that your time would be better spent pressuring Conyers or Pelosi. They have the actual power to move impeachment. If they wanted to.

Impeachment starts in the House and Joe is in the Senate.

Conyers seems like he's got a dual personality. He spoke long and passionately about the dire need to impeach, up until he became chair of the committee. Now for some weird strange and unknown reason he's just letting it go.

I think Pelosi will be vulnerable. Her constituents voted 60% to 40% in favor of impeachment, and she is just blowing them off. I think SF voters will be less than happy when they learn (and many probably already know) that she pushed through the Iraq supplemental with provisions to force the Iraqis to put their oil under the control of the multinationals.

Pelosi may be a great representative, but stealing Iraqi oil isn't a great thing to do. In fact it's a criminal thing to do.

Do you applaud her support for stealing Iraqi oil, or do you think it would be better not to?

If Iraq bends to congress' will and signs the joint production agreements with the multinationals, we will be in Iraq for decades to protect the oil companies profits. That's for sure.

I don't know how you feel about that, or how her voters feel about that, but I bet a lot of them won't like it. I don't like it.

was unacceptable, as any group of responsible adults should do.

who still support this war?

What have they done about all of the ones who keep us from doing things Conyers would like to do?

there is no doubt they would have been in his office today. Mr. Conyers just happens to be the head of the right committee.

Look -- I know most of the people that were in his office today. This wasn't about trying to target JOHN CONYERS of all people, or even, a Democrat. This was about asking the chair of the right committee to move. That's all.

That same bunch has done the same to Dean and others all along.

I am quite frankly sick of it, and so are a lot of others.

We all want impeachment, but we don't want good Democrats who try dragged through the mud.

.

Think about it: he covered the election fraud in Ohio while everyone else was wringing their hands about mythical values voters and he stayed with it, anyway. He's been at the forefront of so many efforts, they're innumerable.

He just happens to be the chair of the committee that would initiate the impreachment process.

This was a very difficult day for everyone.

Not to me.

Sounds like he's not a hero at all.

Attacking our heros now?

So go ahead and tear good Dems apart.

Buenas.

You honestly don't think that disgusting article wasn't an attack piece on Conyers?

They used the ghost of one of his dearest friends, saying she would be so ashamed of him she would drop dead, if she were still alive that is, and if she didn't die then surely she would have a broken heart.

I can't believe you would defend an article like that.

Not to be too much of a wise ass but we apparently are in agreement about at least one thing. I do appreciate you taking the time to put your position(?) in perspective.

See, I can quite the agreeable guy!

I do constantly wonder, which potential presidential nominee in 2008 all of these anti-Sheehan folks are for? I doubt that many, or any, Kucinich or Gravel fans would impugn Cindy Sheehan's character here or anywhere! These anti-Cindy partisans are probably rooting for one of the prospective corporate candidates the "powers that be" have pre-chosen for us to decide between like, ...well you know who they are!...

This paraphrases a couple of lines in my previous post on one of the "Chavez is a dictator" threads elsewhere currently extant on DU.

And what the hell did "this same bunch" do to Dean? :shrug:

Let's start there.

He has more sense than that.

They are having hearings tomorrow, and there is not a minute's let up.

I am done.

No one is good enough for Cindy and David and David.

encouraged every step of the way.

...asked for whistleblowers on his website. He gave us hope that someone was fighting for us...voting rights and the rest. It's hard to understand the hopeful posts over the weekend where we were calling, faxing and phoning and then this....

It leaves some of us feeling kicked in the gut. He reached out to US...and we don't know what's going on now.

I remember blogging on the running DU thread here during his "Basment Hearings" and having such pride that someone finally listened to us and had hearings on stolen elections. ...

Frankly, as anyone knows who was around forty years ago, or who has read in US history, this is nothing at all, patty cake. It can and will get much worse until something is done. It is not about Mr Conyers, or Cynde, or anyone particular, it is about motivating the weasels in Washington DC to make necessary political reforms, and that will not occur through polite dialog, else it would already have been done, because the need is obvious.

talk about shameful.

who do we do next?

Come on, tell us.

We are told we don't know what is going on, we are told we are clueless.

What a turn of events. Defend a good Dem at DU and you turn into a bad guy who doesn't love America.

Saw that one today, shit you not.

If the issue were not so important, this would be hysterically funny.