I have a different point about impeachment (er, I think its different) --

Most of the threads I read here are between people who strongly demand impeachment and those who either think impeachment is a fantasy or don't think impeachment is the best choice for the country.

Many, many times the arguments against impeachment seem to include the fact that x, y, or z is not an impeachable offense.

I have more of a musing for you: isn't it tragic that we live in a country, a time in history, and a place in this world where the highest government official willfully lying to the American people (and, I don't believe there is anyone questioning that Bush and his administration lied us into war) about the pretext for a war in which thousands of American lives would be lost isn't universally and unquestioningly considered to be an "impeachable offense?"

To me its incredibly sad that technically speaking, after every flat out lie told by Cheney, Bush and this administration right in the face of the American people, they hadn't committed any crime.

I think it should be a criminal offense for the people's representatives to lie to the people - ever. I understand that sometimes certain information must not be publicly disclosed for security reasons. But that's not the same as telling a lie.

I think that the moment the downing street story "broke" (and I use that term loosely since it got absolutely no traction in the MSM) there should have immediately been an investigation by a special prosecutor to see whether indictments should be brought against Bush and members of the administration for lying to the American people. I do get that in reality, that can't happen, because no law was broken. But I think that's a crying shame.

what they have done is destroyed the constitution, committed war crimes and most likely high treason.

I agree with you that they've "destroyed the constitution." I'd like to see them charged with a statue crime for that - what law have they broken? The courts have backed up their actions. Your opinion and mine that they've "destroyed the constitution" is subjective.

Committing "war crimes" won't get your tried in an American federal court either. Kind of a shame isn't it? "Most likely high treason?" Point me to the specific criminal statues that apply. This is my entire point. Everyone knows that Bush and this administration are the antithesis of everything good, and yet so far there are no police coming to arrest them - because so far there's no clear criminal statute that has been broken.

My point is, that in terms of what is RIGHT and WRONG obviously Bush and this administration are terribly tyrants. But "right" and "wrong" isn't the same as the law. I think the persistence of these people in positions of power only underscores gaping holes and serious flaws in our system of laws and justice.

18 U.S.C. Sec. 1505 : ... Whoever corruptly ... influences, obstructs, or impedes ... the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress ... shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than 5 years ... or both.

18 U.S.C. Sec. 1515(b): As used in section 1505, the term "corruptly" means acting with an improper purpose, personally or by influencing another, including ... withholding, or concealing ... information.

They've clearly and openly committed felonies. The reason they haven't been arrested isn't because they haven't broken the law, it's because they control the Justice Department.

Nixon controlled the justice department too. What were the variables. Was it because the saturday night massacre galvanized the public? (It was saturday night rignt?) What kind of "event" would it take these days to galvanize the public in this way?

Seems to me this president is far, far more criminal than Nixon and his administration ever was... so what's changed, exactly?

Thanks for the info, btw.

threaten the democrats into not impeaching. probably told them that if they dare to impeach him he will throw every democrat and anybody else that dares to stand up to him into the fema interment camps I have been hearing about.

It is obviously a misuse of the public trust.

Furthermore I think it could be tied to war profiteering for Bush/Cheney cronies (Halliburton, Security Firms. etc)

Name them please.

This, again is my point. Everyone knows these guys are thugs and tyrants. But yet there isn't anything specific in the law to charge them with.

if there is anything specific in the law or not to charge them with?


Google John Dean

Google Fein

Google someone who is an attorney and a constitutional expert and you will find the answer to your qeustions. The answers will contrdict your assumptions, but I'm sure you are open minded enough to handle it.

So I was asking for some evidence. That's pretty fair.

I can (and have) googled plenty of constitutional experts and you know what I find? zero consensus.

Makes it kind of hard to do anything doesn't it. Might possibly explain a bit about why nothing has been done, wouldn't it?

You don't need to be snotty. Asking questions is my right - sorry if that's troubling to you.

And it is online. Who are some of the disenting experts that you googled? I would be interested in seeing what they have to say.

Thanks

I just go to the PBS site and, look under Moyer's programing to find it?

I can barely get PBS reception otherwise.

Thanks!

we will no longer be a nation of laws but one more similar to China where the laws are made up as it suits the convenience of those in power. I believe impeachment is very important right now for that reason.

As is obstruction of justice, and so is violating the Geneva convention, as is violation of the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, etc.

They've demonstrably committed numerous "high crimes", to say nothing of "misdemeanors".

If they world court wants to do something, that's another matter altogether. I'm talking about what is wrong with our national system of laws.

Where is the lie to congress? The administration did a lot of lying to the public, which sadly is not a crime. I think it should be, but it isn't. Show me a transcript with specific statements that have been proven to be direct falsehoods - not indirect, but statements for which there is now concrete refuting evidence.

It goes without saying they weaseled, they parsed their words, they desired to paint a misleading picture. But show me the lie to congress. I want to see it.

Violations of the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments? All upheld by the courts. So, the justice system of the United States of America says that so far, contrary to our opinion, no crimes against the constitution have been committed.

"They've demonstratably committed numerous 'high crimes'" --- and I'm still waiting to see concrete specific examples of any of them.

Once again don't miss my point. We know that Bush and this Administration are tyrants and thugs and we know that they are shredding everything that was once good about this country, but they've done most of it all without technically committing an indictable crime. This ought to wake us up to huge and gaping holes in our Justice system.

We signed the Geneva Conventions. And under the Constitution, the treaties that we sign are U.S. law.

n/t

Thanks!

was a conviction of Libby, a professional fall guy, followed by a commuted sentence by Bush.