Leahy to Olbermann: It would take until the end of this administration to impeach Gonzales.

Even accepting (which I don't) that this is a reasonable explanation as to why the Senate should shirk its constitutional duty, I don't believe it. Congress understands the violations and it has the documents and witnesses to prove them. Gonzales can be brought to the dock with very few delays. They could make quick work of him.

Tell me what I'm missing.

what was the point there?

No one can be absolutely sure of conviction when they indict. If we waited until we were 100% certain of conviction, we'd never indict anyone.

first off, many people here don't believe Gore lost, and I have my sincere doubts as well. Second, you could argue that Gore lost because he distanced himself from Bill Clinton, who was quite popular at the time and wouldn't let him campaign for him. You also have to take into consideration that Gore had Joe Lieberman as a running mate. STUPID!

So, you're suggesting that and futile impeachment proceeding should be persued for cheap political purposes? What if it backfires?

You're the one who seems to be saying political purposes are why we shouldn't impeach.

Secondly, my girlfriend's dad, who is the closest thing to a political bellweather I know (factory/labor guy,) voted for the winner in each presidential race in recent memory, voted for Bush in 2000 specifically to punish the democrats for Clinton (yes, this is totally irrational, but people often are). I think a good number of people did, and now regret it of course. Even if Gore should have won, and I agree he should have/"did", the number of people who switched their vote to Bush due to the impeachment was enough to sway the election. In other words, FL probably would not have been in dispute had the GOP not impeached.

Impeachment was cheapened so that the real thing would be seen as a gotcha back.
:shrug:

n/t

That we amend the constitution to remove impeachment?
Or that we only pursue crimes if there is some political gain to be had?

that impeachment only be used when there is broad bipartisan support for it, otherwise it will be a mere political tool, which is not what it was intended for.

It should be used when "high crimes and misdemeanors" have been committed.

nobody is willing to take up the case right now. Not all the ducks are in the row yet.

impeachment is the trial, during which evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors is aired. It is completely wrong to state that high crimes and misdemeanors must be proven before impeachment can begin. This seeks a verdict prior to a trial.

who looks at the evidence and decides if there is enough to send it to the full House floor, then the Senate will try the case. So in essence, the House acts as the Grand Jury. You have to prove you have a case first, not that you have a conviction.

And if there's enough reason to investigate, Congress is REQUIRED to. There's plenty of reason to believe that impeachable things have been done. All asking and expecting of Congress is that they do their jobs, investigate and make sure!

:headbang:
rocknation

to anything.

standing by Bush will soon no longer be an option for most of them I would think, the sane ones anyway.

It took so long everybody forgot it was even happening. Just like the Terry Shiavo incident. Took forever :silly:

And it worked.

they're just doing fine on their own, and I don't advocate impeachment for cheap political purposes. That's not what it's intended for.

It's not a cheap political purpose. It brings sanity to an insane situation. You're just comfortable with the Pelosi Democrats playing politics with this issue. "It's too hard." "It's going to take too long." "They'll think we're the obstructionists." Democrats just don't seem to understand that a strong offense makes a good defense.

I'd rather believe the theory that Pelosi is displaying a great poker face and claiming that she won't bring on impeachment, while all the facts are being gathered to reach the opposite conclusion.

I don't think anybody is arguing it isn't, except the Republicans. Pelosi will not pursue it unless it gets broad support. Period. They will not have a Clinton redux.

that suggests that the public WANTS an impeachment.

So, I guess the obvious question is, what number will Madam Speaker accept to put impeachment back on the menu?

if it can be proven Bush lied about Iraq. There's no solid evidence proving that he did knowingly lie yet, and they're still stonewalling Congress. At any rate, he'll probably always be able to prove plausible deniability. But I don't think opinion polls are driving the decision not to impeach anyway. The public is fickle.

Water, moving at great speed, is capable of cutting through stone. But standing still, it just becomes stagnant.

nobody is giving up on investigating these crimes. There is a lot of stonewalling going on, and it's like chipping away at granite to get to the truth. Now is not the time or the place for impeachment, but things could obviously change very rapidly, and I suspect they will, once the Republican ass covering goes into full swing.

Meaning, we all have roles to play because it's going to take everything we have to make it happen.

can crack a boulder,

The weight of a single snowflake, etc.,

and

straws breaking backs of camels.

...

It is now time for a shiny monkey to distract me. CNN? Paging, CNN...

Are you comparing lying about a consensual sexual relationship to violating the Geneva conventions, spying on your own citizens, and sending thousands to their deaths based on a mountain of lies? Gee, I hope not.

If Congress doesn't pursue impeachment, those clauses should be removed from the Constitution as they would be utterly useless. Given the jeopardy that entire document has been in, maybe no one would even notice.

unless there is broad bipartisan support, it goes nowhere, and it will be framed as political theatre. That is equally as bad for this country. Keep up the investigations, keep building a case, make the Republicans continue to support this criminal enterprise that is the Bush Administration. They're done.

The hesitancy to pursue impeachment becomes self-fulfilling. Until we have the guts to do the right thing Constitutionally speaking, we won't have the votes. But if the people demand it (according to polls they already have been) and the Democrats respond, all but the most fervent winguts will follow in short order.

people are not demanding impeachment yet. Not like they were with Nixon. The polls indicate that if it is proven that Bush lied about taking the country into Iraq, they would favor impeachment. Remember you are dealing with legal issues. That's a pretty tall order proving anything with this bunch. The Democrats obviously don't feel they can do that yet, and neither do the Republicans, but things of course can change.

You obviously don't like impeachment, so it clearly should not have been written into the constitution, according to you.

Too bad our founders were just so damned STOOOOOOOPID!

and I would love nothing more than to see Bush and Cheney both impeached and drummed out of office. But the intent of it was not to be used for political paybacks, which is how it will be framed at this moment in time, and which is how the Republicans marginalized it when they did it to Clinton.

If the Democrats impeach Bush or Cheney now, it will in fact weaken impeachment as a tool in my opinion. Until there is broad bipartisan support for it, there is nothing to be gained.

"But the intent of it was not to be used for political paybacks,"

Copied directly from the RW playbook.

Several people need to go back and reread about Iran/Contra, and where that has led us. That, also, in RW thinking, was political "paybacks".

Keep the fear going, as we go right down the sewer.

if no Republican will support it? What is the point of it, other than a political spectacle, the blue team against the red team? It cheapens the whole idea behind impeachment. That is what is from the RW playbook. Use any tool you can for political purposes.

Your use of RW terminology is a dead giveaway to your fear.

Try deealing with it. Try reviewing history HONESTLY.

Your fear is not serving you, and most importantly, it's DAMAGING this nation.

That was always the "true" reason for Clinton's impeachment: it was a convenient way to tire the public of the process, and make it ever so much more difficult to impeach anyone in the following republican administration.

They knew exactly what they were doing, and obviously it has worked like a fucking charm :(

then to try and impeach him. That's the bottom line. The Repukes will be chewing on all of this bile right up until next November.

Letting Iran/Contra slide by was "politically expedient".

Look where that got us.

What do you have against the rule of law?

it's the Republicans that have a problem with it.

Fear sure is powerful.

is a futile impeachment effort. When they have the support, I will be all for it. I don't fear anything, I just don't see what is to be gained by a cheap political spectacle. It might make people feel happy and smug, but what does it gain for our country? Bush is still there, the war still rages on.

We are the most fearful nation, and this exemplifies it perfectly.

Our fear will bring us down completely.

So, keep using emotionally laden words to describe our determination to save this country.

It's your FEAR.

I get it...:scared:

ARRGGGGHHHHH!!!

I really honestly am screaming. FUCK political expediency.

Can't you hear the founders screaming along with you?

YOu can bet the obstructionist Repubs are already working on their dilatory motions to slow the process down and run out the clock.

keith asked him if the senate or congress could name a special prosecutor on their own..he said it would take until * was out of office!!

it's the Washington Generals pretending to be "against" the Harlem Globetrotters when in reality BOTH teams are against us.

They clearly aren't being straight with us, and we've seen too much garbage to just take their word for it on such a crucial matter.

They've painted themselves in this corner, and there will be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth the next election, when a lot of people just don't vote because they see what's happening.

Just because they own guns, they don't have to prove it by shooting themselves in the feet.

Absolutely surreal!!! The guy is a compeate freaking liar, a wothless lackey... And dumb as a box of rocks!

:eyes:

and not to do it is to condone and approve of the lies and deceit

I don't care if it takes until the end of the administration or not

if the freaking senate can hold a last minute middle of the night session to intervene in the Terry Shaivo case - they can freaking impeach gonzo

whaaaaaaaa - not enough votes
whaaaaaaaa - waste the American peoples time and money
whaaaaaaaa - too close to the '08 election
whaaaaaaaa - fill in weenie excuse

TAKE TOO LONG:
bush*t - didn't take long to pass the freaking patriot act, had it written, debated and voted on in a matter of a few weeks. didn't take long to vote for the freaking Iraq invasion, debate lasted mere hours in both hours. When Congress wants to move it's ass it can do it quickly

NOT ENOUGH VOTES
bush*t - you held an all nighter jammie party knowing full well you didn't have the votes. You've passed stem cell legislation and other things knowing you didn't have the votes to sustain a veto.

WASTE THE AMERICAN PEOPLES TIME AND MONEY
bush*t - with the republic blocking every proposal, initiative, bill, the congress isn't getting much done anyways. Frankly, I don't think saving our country, saving OUR DEMOCRACY is a waste of time - after all according to the bushies that's why our troops are dying in Iraq isn't it? Because "they" hate our freedoms?

I'll tell ya why we haven't had a freaking terrorist attack on US soil since 9-11 - they don't have to attack us to destroy us, bush/cheney and their cronies are doing it for them

TOO CLOSE TO THE '08 ELECTIONS
bush*t - hasn't it occurred to you that with the bush/cheney power grab that there MAY NOT BE AN ELECTION in '08? If you can't freaking stand up to the bush/cheney regime, why the hell should we think you are capable of standing up to a threat like terrorism?

IMPEACHMENT- THE NEXT STEP

Perhaps if they did not take so much time off it could be done in less than half that time. Does Leahy have anthrax in his office again? Or is he afraid of more?

I mean, C'MON!!!!

EW!!! :grr:

continue to live off the public paycheck, take advantage of the healthcare we provide them, and take money from lobbyists, of course.

just how that will be written in the criminal history books.

Hell would freeze over before you get 1 R Senator to vote to convict.

Pat would rather hold hearings where he makes them all look like fools I guess.

Check out the latest funny republican comic from HL

Torture Boy Takes The Stand.

http://www.thehollywoodliberal.com/comic_feature_links.htm

They’ve also lots of videos and Bush bashing stories at

http://www.thehollywoodliberal.com

it is still an impeachment

Talk about job security. Every day I shake my head in disbelief that anyone ever bought Bush's B.S. and pulled the lever to vote for him.

:shrug:

However, if he lies to congress, he can be prosecuted like Libby, and his case will drag beyond the Bush pardon years.

and watches while thugs rob him and his paying customers blind. Every so often he gets up the nerve to say, "Hey, please don't rob me anymore." But the thieves only laugh in his face because they know he'll never call the police or take action to stop them. So at first they commit petty theft. Then, when they see that there are no consequences, they move on to taking increasingly expensive items until pretty soon they have a moving van in front and the store owner, afraid of being hurt, helps them take valuable goods out the door.

The Dems are the store owners. They own the shop, but they are too meek and scared to stop the republican robbers. So they've ended up aiding and abetting them and doing contortions to explain why the crime spree cannot end. Very sad and pathetic state of affairs.

on thugs armed with knives.

The Dems have been in the majority in the house for 7 months, in the Senate it is a virtual draw. Is math a challenge for you? Seriously.

I guess it' just too much trouble, and we should let 'em all go.

:eyes:

Oh, for some spines....

Good Lord, what is wrong with this board.

In the last few days, Conyers has been ripped apart...Dean has been put down for standing with the party he chairs...which he should do...and now Leahy?

Who the hell is next?

are we eating our own? terrible, we should supporting these senators, just imagine if the repigs were still in the majority.

Be voted on there.

Then introduced into the House.

Then debated and voted on there.

Then trial in the Senate. Where the Repukes let him off the hook.

Its not an instant thing like you say.

Sorry.

I believe Leahy said he was going to be referring this to perhaps the appointment of a special prosecutor.

Process is slow and maddening, and it helps to be mindful of that.

And the senate could do that fairly swiftly by charging him with perjury and obstruction. I believe they have that power, outside of impeachment. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

They will somehow force this fight into the courts which will delay the proceedings. I suspect it will first go to the DC Circuit. If they lose there, they will push it to the SCOTUS, which will AGAIN delay the preceedings. I happen to think Leahey is right, however, I believe he should and will go forward with the purgury charge.

until Dec 2008 rolls around

Let the Dictator do whatever he wants

WE MUST IMPEACH.

And the Repub's failure to impeach Clinton was hardly the end of their world--indeed, they're using it to their political advantage to this day. Do the Dems REALLY intend to spend the next eighteen months pretending that there's nothing wrong with what Bush has been doing? And don't they realize that their inertia will only encourage him to try to marginalize Congress that much MORE?

:shrug:
rocknation

...cause him to need to spend more time with family (which happens so often in the B*sh admin that we should have a catchy slogan for it).

And, frankly, there is so much wisdom on this forum that I think we should form a delegation of DUers to meet with Reid and Pelosi and lay out the case for impeaching Bush and Cheney. Just the points you've made here, for example, are compelling.

all the really, really bad press that discussing misdeeds in public would generate. I can't imagine that GOP, RNP, and GOP congressmen would like to hear for months how politicized the Justice Dept has become in favor of right wingers running for office....they would demand resignation behind the scenes. A year of testimony on how badly the republicans have screwed up would not be good for 2008.

But you have to make a show of pursuing impeachment for resignation to happen. And then if he resigns, you still pursue criminal charges.