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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 08:53 PM
Original message
Awesome post by Josh Marshall - please read it.
Josh has always been against the impeachment movement.....but yesterday's Gonzales' testimony has him rethinking that point.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/015836.php

Best part:

Whether because of prudence and pragmatism or mere intellectual inertia, I still have the same opinion on the big question: impeachment. But I think we're moving on to dangerous ground right now, more so than some of us realize. And I'm less sure now under these circumstances that operating by rules of 'normal politics' is justifiable or acquits us of our duty to our country
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. That realization will hit more and more as it continues.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. When they refused to show up to answer the subpoenas.
That was it. There is no other remedy.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. That was the modern equivalent of slapping Congress across the face with a glove.
It's on.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. The conflict between consequentialist and deontological ethics is pervasive.
Edited on Wed Jul-25-07 09:09 PM by TahitiNut
"I'm less sure now under these circumstances that operating by rules of 'normal politics' is justifiable or acquits us of our duty to our country."

When I was young and filled with myself and my 'discovery' of causality and Prime Mover and all manner of Newtonian constructs, I was often seduced into believing that skill in knowing the predictable and foreseeable results of an act mattered more than what was 'right' and dutiful. As I've grown and learned, I find that "Man plans and the Universe laughs" is a far more persuasive guidepost. The racetracks and casinos wallow in the donations from those who fail to accurately predict the future.


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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh wow! I just had a flashback to college philosophy class!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Fun, huh?
:rofl:

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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow ...
pragmatism ALMOST gives way to principle. Schmuck.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. THANKS i was just about to post this. Take heed anti-impeachers!
One of your own is beginning to shift uncomfortably.
(For the record, I love Josh Marshall, and TPM is my 2nd most frequented sited next to DU).

more..

But in recent days, for the first time I think, I've seen new facts that make me wonder whether the calculus has changed. Or to put it another way, to question whether my position is still justifiable in the face of what's happening in front of our eyes. (!)
...
Without going into all the specifics, I think we are now moving into a situation where the White House, on various fronts, is openly ignoring the constitution, acting as though not just the law but the constitution itself, which is the fundamental law from which all the statutes gain their force and legitimacy,
doesn't apply to them.

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. That last paragraph is what we've been pointing out to people
for quite some time. It's as if after many years of waking up in the same bedroom, he suddenly noticed what color the walls have been painted.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. One of his best. When he comes around, he really comes..
..around. It's time for all good men and women, to come to the aid of their country.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
9. k&r. . . . n/t
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
:kick:
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
12. Yes, these are dangerous times.
Bush has recently decreed that the US Attorney will NOT act upon contempt of Congress charges. The law says that the US Attorney MUST turn those charges over to a grand jury, to determine the validity of the charges. Bush is basically, by denying Congress access to the courts, thwarting their ability to act as a check and balance against a dictatorial executive.

I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime, and I lived through Watergate.
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. More and more people are
beginning to see the big picture. It's like a puzzle that's slowly coming together and the picture isn't very pretty. In fact it's quite scary.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. K & R
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
16. yes, please read the entire post - it is wonderful stuff.
thanks for posting.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
17. Go Easy. Cranial-Rectoscopy Survivors Need Time...
...to reorient themselves back to the reality-based community.

There can be relapses. And the lingering impeachophobic side effects can last a while.

But he does appear to have turned a corner.

---
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. A bit of Cranial-Rectoscopic poetry for your consideration!
With a tip of the hat to an anonymous author from 30 years ago, whose poem is stuck in my head:

"Having a crazy mother is like growing a weed in your garden,

Thinking all the while it's a perfectly splendid plant,

Until the day when someone says, 'Why don't you get rid of that weed?'

And then you know you knew it all the time"!



Substitute "Being Impeachophobic" for "Having a crazy mother," and you get the idea.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I lke that
Perhaps we really do need Chauncey Gardiner after all?

==
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. For what reason I cannot say, I've never seen that film. I'ts on my list now! Thanks.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Sorry for "spoiling"
But it's well worth it for Sellers alone. Perhaps the best "DC satire" ever.

--
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. You didn't spoil it. The article made me want to see it! :) nt
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. Good. Wake the fuck up already. - n/t
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
19. One More Time...
Though other events in recent months and years have had graver consequences in themselves, I'm not sure I've seen a more open, casual or brazen display of the attitude that the body of rules which our whole system is built on just don't apply to this White House.

Without going into all the specifics, I think we are now moving into a situation where the White House, on various fronts, is openly ignoring the constitution, acting as though not just the law but the constitution itself, which is the fundamental law from which all the statutes gain their force and legitimacy, doesn't apply to them.

If that is allowed to continue, the defiance will congeal into precedent. And the whole structure of our system of government will be permanently changed.

Whether because of prudence and pragmatism or mere intellectual inertia, I still have the same opinion on the big question: impeachment. But I think we're moving on to dangerous ground right now, more so than some of us realize. And I'm less sure now under these circumstances that operating by rules of 'normal politics' is justifiable or acquits us of our duty to our country.


Better late than never Josh... c'mon, you can do it.

IMPEACH!!!

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
20. very good article
"Without going into all the specifics, I think we are now moving into a situation where the White House, on various fronts, is openly ignoring the constitution, acting as though not just the law but the constitution itself, which is the fundamental law from which all the statutes gain their force and legitimacy, doesn't apply to them.

If that is allowed to continue, the defiance will congeal into precedent. And the whole structure of our system of government will be permanently changed.

Whether because of prudence and pragmatism or mere intellectual inertia, I still have the same opinion on the big question: impeachment. But I think we're moving on to dangerous ground right now, more so than some of us realize. And I'm less sure now under these circumstances that operating by rules of 'normal politics' is justifiable or acquits us of our duty to our country."

link to full article:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/015836.php

.
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