Support Chavez or be fired from your job sounds pretty dictatorial

George Bush may be our enemy, but our enemy's enemy isn't always our friend. Yes, we do like it when someone stands up to the boy king. It feels refreshing when someone in power says a little of what we're thinking and it's covered by the press.

Of course, George Bush does't like Hugo Chavez and many here at DU doesn't like him either. It doesn't make us 'Chavez haters' war supporters, bushbots, freepers or any other things we've been called when we express our disdain for Chavez's actions. If the US has been doing covert work to undermine Chavez as many maintain(and the evidence presented is compelling)it doesn't automatically mean that Chavez is a good man. I also recognize the fact that Chavez has been elected three times, but so have other world leaders who are considered dictators and much of the world questions the validity of their elections as has been done in Venezuale. Many have questioned those elections and there is discussion that those were stolen. Of course, we have our own two previous presidential elections which were considered stolen by most of us here at DU.

So for all the Chavez supporters who continually ask for proof I leave a few links that took just a few minutes to google. Here is why I do not and will not support Chavez in any way shape form or fashion:

Democracy Hugo Chavez-Style

For workers at Venezuela's state-owned oil company, supporting Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez isn't a choice; it's a direct order.

According to an internal memo obtained by ABC News, workers at Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) were recently instructed to support Chavez's re-election campaign or else be terminated.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/11/democracy_hugo_.html

Chavez set to receive decree powers

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela's Congress delayed by a day on Tuesday its vote to give President Hugo Chavez decree powers enabling him to nationalize oil and utility assets and press his drive to turn Venezuela into a socialist state.

Congress, which has no opposition lawmakers due to a boycott of elections in 2005, had been set to approve the measure on Tuesday but postponed action until Wednesday to hold an unusual open-air voting session in Caracas's central square -- increasing public exposure.

If passed as expected, the vote will empower Chavez for 18 months to issue decrees expected to overhaul the OPEC nation's economic landscape by imposing state controls over such sectors as energy, mining and banking.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2007/01/30/chavez_set_to_receive_decree_powers_in_venezuela

Chavez Shuts Venezuelan TV Station

Venezuela's oldest private television station went off the air following President Hugo Chavez's decision to pull the plug on the popular channel harshly critical of the government, a move that sparked violent clashes between protesters and police.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/05/28/international/i003955D76.DTL

I think he may be terrified of the USA and has lost it a little. There should be a free press in Venezuela. Like everywhere else.

DU meetup in Venezuela. I am free Dec. 22 to Jan. 5.

I wish they had a better "agent for change" because they NEEDED the economic changes, as the 1% wealthy class 99% poor is not freedom either. I hope we do not push his paranoia further, and the country is better off in 5 years, 10 years and so on. Chavez is a heavy handed autocratic personality, (so it seems to me) and that could well play right into the hands of his enemies. Some of which are the enemies of the poor everywhere.

There is massive disinfo going on in both directions, so it is good for us to be watchful and skeptical.

I remain neither "supporter" nor "detractor" but try to approach this more like an analyst. I do wonder why there are no big stories (!!!!!) about Columbia, Mexico, Peru, et al as to whether they are run by dictators or not.

Surely it is not USAID and oil interests, or the IMF/world Bank losing control.

Not to defend Hugo.

Kids at a graduation had to give him a standing ovation otherwise they couldn't get their degree.

The yahoo link was dead and I googled and found another that told the story. That was a while before I joined DU and I had no idea it happened. I guess this is why bush only does military acadamy commencements now.

My point was more along the lines that those who live in glass houses...

Chavez has a difficult uphill battle against entrenched enemies who prefer assassinations and kidnappings to presidential stifling of decent, but I bet they do that as well.

The moneyed media there can't be too different from the one we have here, so if we were in the same shape they were in before he was elected I would agree with getting Fux Spews types taken of the air until the kids were fed and educated.

There is a difference between debate and propaganda I think.

Spanish, verdad?
Chavez did not pull the plug on the tv station, he did not renew its license. Wish we could do that to our tv stations who are using our air waves for crap.

People have used them here as sources before. In the Mark Foley mess ABC News was considered a valid resource when they blew that story wide open. No one doubted their integrity.

And while I despise some of what's on the news...no way would I ever advocate 'not renewing' their license because I didn't like what they said. Smacks too much of censorship and oppressing the opposition.

:D

Conozco muchos Venezuelanos y a veces yo leo los periódicos en español. Lo que estoy leendo aquí ahora parece la propaganda del U.S. State Department, hecho por Negroponte o Otto Reich.

When Bush brought them on in 2001, it was obvious Iran/contra 2 was in the works...
All the more reason to be skeptical.
Some of these stories are spin, some pure CIA manual.

Chavez does seem to play right into their hands though, don't you think?


While you are here, what's your opinion on Council on Hemispheric Affairs as a source, for good or ill?

Look what it did to Tillman.... Look what it did to the prosecutors.... Need I go on all day about this?

That because I believe Chavez is aiming for dictatorial power I'm ignoring the bushies? :shrug:

Worry about OUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I should only have a one track mind and not think about the rest of the world. Okay. NOT.

Well, you fill in the blanks. I don't have to tell you.

that I'm not allowed to be concerned about the rest of the world. Sorry, I'm not like you and I don't think I want to be.

It's one thread out of many here on DU. :shrug:

This has got to be the oddest discussions I've ever had.

it sounds like you're saying that we can't have opinions about other places in the world because of our problems here. Maybe that's not what you mean, but that's how it sounds.

Talking about another nation's issues and potential problems doesn't mean a person is excusing or minimizing our (the USA's) own dilemmas. This is especially true in the context of a discussion board that's overall well aware of our problems and seeking various ways to fix them.

What's going on in another country, and not mentioning that it's going on RIGHT HERE, I wonder about you.

Yuck.

This whole OP is just one big flame bait. Picking up O'Rielly Fauxnews-like talking points "facts" . The whole OP says:

"YOU MUST HATE CHAVEZ. YOU MUST I SAY"

And keep repeating the nastiness over and over and over.

:shrug:

I checked my sources...non of those came from Faux. In fact, I think many here at DU has used ABC News and the others as sources before. I'm pretty sure of it. :)

has been carefully culled, yes. Fauxnews has used those exact same cites to spread the hatred and bile.

And each has been proven to be paid propaganda. Here at DU there is thread after thread with link after link proving such.

But once again, another fauxnews-like thread saying "Chavez must be hated. DUers YOU MUST HATE CHAVEZ. Here are some links. HATE CHAVEZ"

It is the standard comeback: "It is not propaganda. Prove it to me. I order you to run around like a bunny rabbit searching the database and give me those links." Then a belly laugh. Ha Ha

If bait is taken and links are provided, you say I don't believe it. YOU NEED TO HATE CHAVEZ

If the bait is not taken and links are not provided, you say "see I was right". YOU NEED TO HATE CHAVEZ

You made the claim. Back it up.

you already said that and you already have my response.

Thanks for the clarification.

that I must hate Chavez.

and you are welcome.

Have fun with your Hate Chavez campaign

Then, if you can be bothered, check international news sources. You may find that what is being reported elsewhere in the world is vastly different to that being spoon fed to US citizens. No surprises there.

Because I know we've used them here before many times.

...when we agree with what they say.

:sarcasm:

1) Ordered to vote for Chavez. Do you have the memo? Who was it signed by? Chavez? Or an over-enthusiastic local manager? There are other state owned entities in Venezuela - were these orders given to ALL of them?

2) Chavez set to recieve decree powers. In accordance with the Venezuelan constitution. The law has been on the books for decades. Used in the past by other Venezuelan presidents, left and right. So NOW it's a threat?

3) Chavez shuts Venezuelan TV station. Not true. This station, during the attempted coup against Chavez, broadcast in favor of the coup, did not report the truth of the news, and in the months before the coup had spewed vitriol against Chavez to build support for the opposition, which then resorted to the coup. After the coup, they continued to broadcast anti-Chavez propaganda. The owners were not arrested. They were not shut down. 2 1/2 years later, when their license came up for renewal, Chavez did not renew. A different station now broadcasts on that frequency, while this station continues to operate on cable.

Why do you hate the truth?

1)ABC News has the memo. I don't recall DUer's questioning their integrity when they provided proof that Mark Foley was having inappropriate contact with underage pages. As far as the rest goes...if you have sources that says ABC news was wrong or if this was an isolated incident by someone who is overzealous in their support or whatever the case...please provide it.

2)It didn't come across as a threat. Chavez has people who rubber-stamp what he wants in much the same way bush had his. Which presidents? When?

3)Is RVTC running again in Venezuala? I hadn't heard that. I admit I'm not here every day and I might have missed some news in regards to Chavez and his activities so if they're on the air in Venezuala I'll freely admit I was mistaken.

I really should have posted the link that Chavez plans to deport foreigners who criticize him.

If you have the 'truth' please feel free to provide your own sources as I did in my OP.

Round trip ticket today for $844 from SFO. It will only go up. Who is willing to check it out for yourself?
Vamonos. Yo quiero ver por mi misma.
ABC news and SF Chronicle are propaganda. Just because they sometimes print things that are true does not make them not capitalist imperialist propaganda.

¡Vamos! :D

Can we get a group fare?

porque estoy desempleado. :(

... e depois, vamos ao Brasil! :D

Brasil!!! Que sueno. No se hacer el tilde en mi compu.

ã Ã õ Õ ñ Ñ... ¿Mejor? :D Puedes copiar y usar.

Estoy desempleado porque vivo en Nueva Orleans, y no hay nada aquí para mi. También, estoy tomando clases en la universidad y no puedo buscar un trabajo ahora.

about this Country, I'll maybe consider whether I want to think them a credible source about Venezuela. Not until.

edit for typo

at their word when it agrees with your opinion?

When I began reading Noam Chomsky and learned to check multiple sources. I learned to look for what was left out, as well as what was put in.

News sources that are part of the Corporate American structure do NOT give the real story.

even the ones that exposed the Mark Foley scandal. All the ones we've used at DU over the years are ALL biased against poor Mr. Chavez.

If you have something that contradicts these stories...please feel free to post them.

Lord Acton's axiom always kicks in when someone becomes a boss.

rich in Venezuela tried to overturn his democratically elected government, Chavez must have decided to do all he could as quickly as he could to organize the country for the people. Here we have W, who wants to harm the people for his rich buds. I'll take Chavez any day of the month over what we have here now.

So, I know longer trust ANY of these anti-Chavez posts, as honorable and sincere. And this one just repeats the same old Bush/State Dept. "talking points" that we see repeated by our war profiteering corporate news monopolies ad nauseum. When you see one, just thing "Saddam's WMDs," and you will understand what the Bushites and their war machine are up to, with regard to Hugo Chavez, Venezuela, and the Bolivarian Revolution. The basic tenets of the Bolivarian Revolution are Latin American self-determination and social justice, and this peaceful, democratic revolution has caught fire throughout South America, with Bolivarians elected in Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and Argentina (and soon in Paraguay as well, and in the next election cycle in Peru, where U.S./Bush-dominated "free trade" is creating great hardship). These governments are also allied with the elected leftist governments of Brazil, Uruguay and Nicaragua, and, to some extent, Chile.

The U.S. has a history of supporting and funding heinous rightwing regimes in South and Central America--people who throw political leftists out of airplanes as punishment for their views, people who slaughter whole villages of men, women and children, on suspicion of their leftist or union affiliations. TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND Mayan villagers in Guatemala, were slaughtered by the rightwing military, with Reagan's direct complicity. The U.S. trained the torturers and murderers who shot Bishop Romera on his altar--because of his advocacy of the poor--in El Salvador. Thousands and thousands of people have been tortured, shot and/or 'disappeared' in Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua, and almost any Latin American country you could name, with two purposes: excessive profit for the local rich elites, and excessive profit for mostly U.S. corporations. We have been toppling democratic governments in Latin America for many decades. The U.S. policy toward Latin America has been utterly hostile to the development of democracy and social justice.

And that is what the Bush Junta is intending now, and why they gave John "death squad" Negroponte the position of Undersecretary of State for Latin America. Negroponte was running the death squads into Nicaragua, from Honduras, during the illegal, unjust war on Nicaragua, that Congress had forbidden, during the Reagan regime--he was at the center of the Iran/Contra scandal. I mention this to point out that what I've described above is not just "old history." These same people are back in power. They are venomous with hatred of the Bolivarian Revolution, because of the oil, gas, minerals and other natural resources in the Andes region, which they want to steal, and because the Bolivarian Revolution is a social justice movement, which is denying them a slave labor force in South America. The Bushites and their corporate puppetmasters want to, a) kill Hugo Chavez, to start the destabilization of Venezuela, which they will then spread to Bolivia and Ecuador; b) smash the Bolivarian Revolution to pieces; and c) re-install rightwing dictatorships throughout the region, which will toady to U.S. corporate interests, and pick up where they left off in the 1980s--and torture and kill masses of people who want democracy and dare to oppose their fascist coups.

Another reason they hate the Bolivarians is that the Bolivarian leaders--particularly Chavez in Venezuela, Morales in Bolivia and Correa in Ecuador--oppose the murderous, corrupt U.S. "war on drugs." The "war on drugs" is a U.S. "military-industrial complex" boondoggle, and it's apotheosis can be found in Colombia, the dinosauric pro-U.S. holdout on the continent. There, the Uribe government (Bush's pals) has been hit with a huge scandal, involving rightwing paramilitaries, with very close ties to the Uribe government (the chief of the military, the former chief of intelligence, and many Uribe office holders), who have been chainsawing union leaders, small peasant farmers and political leftists, and throwing their body parts into mass graves, and have been engaging in big time drug trafficking. Colombia is Bush's most favored nation in South America, upon whom he, and also collusive Democrats, have larded billions of our tax dollars in military aid.

So.....

The Bush Junta supports Colombia, where leftists get cut into little pieces and thrown to the worms...

And reviles Venezuela, where this kind of horrible, fascist activity has been foiled--peacefully, democratically, by the people of Venezuela.

My stomach hurts, and I want to vomit, when I consider what the U.S. government has done to Latin Americans in my name, and what I know the Bushites have been trying to do, have succeeded in doing in Colombia, and will do in Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador, and everywhere, if we cannot stop them.

Hugo Chavez has harmed no one. He has killed no one. He has tortured no one. He has no political prisoners. He has broken no laws. He has, in fact, scrupulously adhered to the law and to the Venezuelan Constitution--a document that Venezuelans truly revere, even more than they revere Chavez. He has been repeatedly elected by Venezuelan voters, in highly transparent elections (unlike our own) that have been heavily monitored by the OAS, the Carter Center and EU election monitoring groups, who have UNANIMOUSLY declared them open and above board. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Venezuelan elections--as the OP writer implies. If you want chapter and verse, I will give it to you. I know the details of the Venezuelan voting system, as I do of our own. Venezuelan elections are many orders of magnitude more transparent than our own. And what an insult it is to Venezuelan voters, thinking they are stupid sheep and would vote three times to elect Chavez--each time with more votes than the last--if he was a "dictator"? Democracy is alive and well in Venezuela. Indeed, Venezuela has one of the liveliest political cultures in the western hemisphere. Citizen participation in government and politics has been ENCOURAGED by the government. Every one of the Bush/State Dept. "talking points" is the opposite of the truth. There has never been more freedom, more public participation, more civil and human rights, more social justice, more services and more hope for the vast poor population, and more democracy in Venezuela than there is now--and all in social and economic indicators are up, with the most vigorous growth in the PRIVATE sector!

Further, the Bolivarian Revolution, of which Chavez is the most well-known (but by no means the only) spokesman is the future in South America. It will win, in the end. It IS winning. But that doesn't mean that the Bush Junta and their fascist allies in Colombia and among Venezuela's and other countries' rich, pampered, undemocratic elites, cannot cause great harm and suffering, trying to destabilize and topple these democratic governments. We know--or SHOULD know--how much violence and horror they can inflict before they are totally defeated by those devoted to democracy and social justice--the majority of South Americans. And we should be doing everything we can to counter Bushite lies, and prevent them from creating a context HERE--a context of disinformation and ignorance--that permits them to proceed against these new democratic leftist governments with impunity. I think the left is solid enough in South America to withstand whatever the Bushites are planning. But are we going to have to stand shamefaced before the world again--after Iraq--with blood on our hands, with torture and murder having been committed in our name...again?!

That's what those who keep repeating this Bushite lie that Chavez is a "dictator" are contributing to.