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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:24 AM Original message |
Staying home in November or voting third party does nothing to fix -anything- |
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patrioticintellect (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:30 AM Response to Original message |
1. An Unreasonable Man |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:43 AM Response to Reply #1 |
14. A lot of people I respect vote third party. |
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patrioticintellect (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-09-07 07:15 PM Response to Reply #14 |
115. It's not about moving left |
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cosmik debris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:34 AM Response to Original message |
2. Voting for more of the same does nothing either |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:35 AM Response to Reply #2 |
4. You think any and all of our Democratic candidates are as bad as Bush on foreign policy? |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:36 AM Response to Reply #4 |
5. the overwhelming majority of them are, yes.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:37 AM Response to Reply #5 |
8. So there is no difference between a Bush presidency and an Obama or Edwards presidency? |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:40 AM Response to Reply #8 |
10. absolutely none between bush and a hillary presidency |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:44 AM Response to Reply #10 |
16. By what standard? Is the right of women to choose meaningless to you, for example? |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:54 AM Response to Reply #16 |
21. lol! |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:57 AM Response to Reply #21 |
27. (edit) I can't agree with that. I believe both issues should remain a priority |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:01 PM Response to Reply #27 |
32. that's a cheap rhetorical shot that you should be ashamed of.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:02 PM Response to Reply #32 |
33. It's her own words. I asked her what she thought about the right to choose. She told me. |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:04 PM Response to Reply #32 |
38. sticks n stones |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:03 PM Response to Reply #27 |
36. like my children's future |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:03 PM Response to Reply #36 |
37. What's your evidence that Hillary is anti-choice? |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:06 PM Response to Reply #37 |
40. did I say she was anti-choice? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:07 PM Response to Reply #40 |
42. OK, let me spell it out: What is your evidence she would appoint an anti-choice justice? |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:14 PM Response to Reply #42 |
47. what is your evidence she would nominate |
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TwilightZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:10 PM Response to Reply #36 |
43. Why would she pick an anti-choice judge? |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:36 PM Response to Reply #43 |
62. I am predicting, |
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TwilightZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:40 PM Response to Reply #62 |
65. With a majority in Congress, why would she have to? |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:51 PM Response to Reply #65 |
71. two words |
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TwilightZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:59 PM Response to Reply #71 |
77. Doesn't matter. |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:57 PM Response to Reply #77 |
94. I see you missed my point |
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TwilightZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 02:00 PM Response to Reply #94 |
97. Your point is detached from reality. |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 02:55 PM Response to Reply #97 |
104. just as ridiculous |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:49 AM Response to Reply #8 |
19. with respect to foreign policy-- I've yet to see any fundamental difference.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:54 AM Response to Reply #19 |
23. I mentioned many things in addition to foreign policy. |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:59 AM Response to Reply #23 |
31. like SEN. CLINTON...? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:13 PM Response to Reply #31 |
46. But those differences are infinitely magnified by the power of the office |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:16 PM Response to Reply #46 |
51. exactly, and if that person is not a democrat... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:23 PM Response to Reply #51 |
54. I agree, but we have a winner take all system |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:13 PM Response to Reply #23 |
45. how simplistic. "a milquetoast enabling vote" |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:15 PM Response to Reply #45 |
48. You won't see me defending Hillary's foreign policy beyond saying she's better than Bush |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:17 PM Response to Reply #48 |
52. I get it now! |
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patrioticintellect (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-09-07 07:17 PM Response to Reply #19 |
118. Amen to that |
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proud2BlibKansan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:59 PM Response to Reply #4 |
79. Foreign policy - yes |
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cosmik debris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:02 PM Response to Reply #4 |
81. No. n/t |
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patrioticintellect (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-09-07 07:16 PM Response to Reply #4 |
116. Yes |
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AndyTiedye (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:59 PM Response to Reply #2 |
78. You Would Sacrifice Roe v. Wade for a Chance of Ending the War in 2013 or 2017 |
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cosmik debris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:01 PM Response to Reply #78 |
80. Did I say that? n/t |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 04:29 PM Response to Reply #78 |
106. That boat already left the dock. |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:35 AM Response to Original message |
3. argue all you want, I won't vote for representatives who don't represent me... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:37 AM Response to Reply #3 |
7. Who cares about you? What about the billions who are worse off with a GOP president? |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:43 AM Response to Reply #7 |
15. you misunderstand.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:48 AM Response to Reply #15 |
18. In that case your vote is a failure, because you fail in every case to defeat right wing candidates |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:52 AM Response to Reply #18 |
20. "why... vote for someone who can have no impact whatsoever?" |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:55 AM Response to Reply #20 |
25. You've seen the disastrous impact one GOP asshole can have as POTUS. A Democrat wouldn't have any? |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:06 PM Response to Reply #25 |
41. stop trying to twist my replies-- I'm not playing that game today.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:10 PM Response to Reply #41 |
44. Even if the wrong leadership is significantly less wrong than the alternative? |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:15 PM Response to Reply #44 |
49. given the choice you've outlined.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:19 PM Response to Reply #49 |
53. But only two of those have a chance to win |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:28 PM Response to Reply #53 |
57. no, I clearly do not agree.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:35 PM Response to Reply #57 |
61. See to my mind actually -working- for the third party does much more than just the vote |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:16 PM Response to Reply #20 |
50. lol! |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:41 AM Response to Reply #3 |
11. well said mike |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:42 AM Response to Reply #11 |
13. I don't see how any progressive can just write off millions of people to avoid holding one's nose |
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terrya (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:36 AM Response to Original message |
6. Pleased to offer the first recommendation |
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VP505 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:37 AM Response to Original message |
9. Getting out |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:41 AM Response to Reply #9 |
12. Our tiny majority is doing a lousy job at opposition |
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TwilightZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:47 AM Response to Original message |
17. I find it amazing how many people buy into the "there's no difference in the parties" garbage. |
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riona (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:23 PM Response to Reply #17 |
90. I'll go along with you |
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camero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:54 AM Response to Original message |
22. So let's just vote for another Dem or Repub corp hack |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:56 AM Response to Reply #22 |
26. The only people who can fix something are those elected to office |
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camero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:58 AM Response to Reply #26 |
28. Good luck with that |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:59 AM Response to Reply #28 |
30. Increased minimum wage doesn't matter to you. Increased grants to students doesn't matter |
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camero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:02 PM Response to Reply #30 |
34. Oh fuckin wow |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:03 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. We're talking about the presidency in the last few examples. |
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camero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:05 PM Response to Reply #35 |
39. In this society, no, not anymore |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:25 PM Response to Reply #39 |
55. Fair enough, but I think even the "insignificant" differences are worth a vote |
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abq e streeter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:55 AM Response to Original message |
24. Completely agree |
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stillcool (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 11:58 AM Response to Original message |
29. from the book "False Hope" |
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opusprime (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:26 PM Response to Original message |
56. Not buying this B.S. |
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mike_c (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:30 PM Response to Reply #56 |
58. well said, opusprime.... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:30 PM Response to Reply #56 |
59. And if another war is started by a GOP president, costing more millions of lives, who cares? |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:55 PM Response to Reply #59 |
75. Is there some type of guarantee that a Democratic president WON'T start a war? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:10 PM Response to Reply #75 |
85. Are they less likely to? Can you argue any of the GOP candidates is less likely to do so? |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:21 PM Response to Reply #85 |
89. I would say that the chances are about even... |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:49 PM Response to Reply #89 |
93. I'm caucusing for Dennis, but I think there were major differences between Reagan and Bill Clinton |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:58 PM Response to Reply #93 |
95. As I said, the biggest difference is perception, not substance... |
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Individualist (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:45 PM Response to Reply #56 |
69. nor am I |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:46 PM Response to Reply #69 |
70. But if your punishment to the enablers puts warmongers in office? |
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Individualist (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:53 PM Response to Reply #70 |
72. The enablers are supporting the warmongers, so what's the difference? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:54 PM Response to Reply #72 |
73. In the office of the presidency, someone who reluctantly enables is better than an active warmonger |
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Individualist (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:58 PM Response to Reply #73 |
76. "Someone who reluctantly enables is better than an active warmonger" |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:09 PM Response to Reply #76 |
84. I'm caucusing for Dennis, but in the GE I think it's time to make the best of a bad mess |
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Individualist (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:11 PM Response to Reply #84 |
87. That's precisely why I'll vote for DK |
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leftofthedial (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:33 PM Response to Original message |
60. except perhaps the "democratic" party |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:36 PM Response to Reply #60 |
63. Some of it has, yeah. But slowing the bleeding in this case is still worth a vote to me |
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leftofthedial (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:11 PM Response to Reply #63 |
86. I'll support Kucinich until his time runs out |
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HughBeaumont (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:38 PM Response to Original message |
64. Well, let's hope America makes the right choice in the primaries, then. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:42 PM Response to Reply #64 |
67. I really don't like Hillary, for many of the reasons you state |
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HughBeaumont (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 06:59 PM Response to Reply #67 |
111. It's a weak field. |
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eridani (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-09-07 01:42 AM Response to Reply #111 |
114. Have you forgotten how the MSM trashed Gore and built up Bush in 2000? |
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tom_paine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:41 PM Response to Original message |
66. I do agree with your main thesis here HOWEVER |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:44 PM Response to Reply #66 |
68. Sadly, you're right. I'm not convinced this isn't just another pendulum swing |
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John Q. Citizen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 12:55 PM Response to Original message |
74. You are making some false asumption here. |
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TwilightZone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:03 PM Response to Reply #74 |
82. Then, why bother? |
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John Q. Citizen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 02:02 PM Response to Reply #82 |
98. Why bother? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:03 PM Response to Reply #74 |
83. If it doesn't matter and it's all rigged, then yes it doesn't matter |
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John Q. Citizen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 02:03 PM Response to Reply #83 |
99. This is true. It's also why groups like code pink are so important. In your face |
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Orsino (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:17 PM Response to Original message |
88. But "nothing" is not much less than what voting will accomplish. |
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Vidar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:32 PM Response to Original message |
91. It helps the third party which if the Democrats continue shirking |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:42 PM Response to Reply #91 |
92. See, to me the actual vote means far less than activism, volunteering, precinct walking, etc. |
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La Lioness Priyanka (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 01:59 PM Response to Original message |
96. amen! |
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superkia (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 02:17 PM Response to Original message |
100. The media would agree with you here. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 02:22 PM Response to Reply #100 |
101. Clinton is not crowned yet. Remember Dean after Iowa. |
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deutsey (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 02:25 PM Response to Original message |
102. Since the 2000 theft, voting does nothing to fix anything period. |
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MadHound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 02:28 PM Response to Original message |
103. Two things you're failing to consider |
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leftchick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 03:45 PM Response to Reply #103 |
105. I agree |
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Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 04:53 PM Response to Reply #103 |
107. Imagine if we had taken a different path in 72. |
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salin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 05:03 PM Response to Original message |
108. I like the Progressive Majority |
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BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 05:05 PM Response to Original message |
109. Doing anything but voting for the Democratic nominee helps republicans... |
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mmonk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Sep-08-07 05:22 PM Response to Original message |
110. Our future is up to events. |
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Festivito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-09-07 01:17 AM Response to Original message |
112. Too many think we have an honest voting system, WE DON'T. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-09-07 01:25 AM Response to Original message |
113. One could say that voting for what you don't want doesn't fix anything either |
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LiberalAndProud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-09-07 07:17 PM Response to Original message |
117. Especially if the FIX is in. /nt |
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