I have a right wing christian thinking... (((boggle!!!)))

Here is her first post and my response.

She actually thought about what I said and came back to me intelligently.

She is a liberal who has been hooked by right wing rhetoric, I'm convinced of it.

If you would like to see how it goes, PM me.


Here is our first exchange, her statements I'm responding to are in quotes.




Poster X,

""It seems many of the respondents do not understand that most conservatives are "as sickened" by Sen Craig's behavior, as liberals "are not". In fact liberals are delighted with this kind of behavior, just as they were with Clinton's escapades (not all were sexual midconduct)""

I'll just point out that all during Clinton's impeachment, Newt Gingrich was carrying on an adulterous affair with Callista Bisek, a Congressional aide. And the press knew all about it because Gingrich made no great effort to conceal his adulterous behavior. Yet, we heard all about Clinton and the semen stained blue dress and not a peep about Gingrich and Bisek.

I guess a double standard is better than no standard at all.

I'm neither delighted nor sickened by Senator Widestance's conduct. Unlike conservatives, liberals are not all that hung up about sex. Sex, even homosexual sex, is a natural thing and without it the human race would be extinct in a hundred years or so. (If you don't think homosexual sex is natural then you've never lived on a farm)

It appears that the only "morality" that conservatives care about is sexual in nature. Kidnapping, torture and preemptive war killing hundreds of thousands are just peachy with them.

""Who can't see, that liberals are enjoying what they view as "payback". The difference between the two camps; Most conservatives have a biblically based standard that is their compass and their goal, yet, as conservatives we have a biblical understanding of the condition of the human heart, and know there will be failures AND CONSEQUENCES.""

I wonder what the CONSEQUENCES will be for Vitter? No one seems to be calling for his ouster from Congress despite the fact that he obviously broke the law and his marital vows even more egregiously than did Craig.

"The composers of the Constitution understood! The liberals seem to think we are all just beasts, and if it feels good, we should just do it, never mind how it affects the stream we are all swimming in. They have no sense of accountability, beyond this life.""

Hmmm... Did you know that the more fundamentalist the church, the higher the divorce rate? And that atheists have the lowest divorce rate of all?

It's true, you can look it up.

If conservatives *really* wanted to defend marriage they would be pushing for a Constitutional Amendment to outlaw divorce.

That would certainly put most of the Republican presidential candidates in a world of hurt, eh?

Meanwhile all the Democratic presidential candidates have only been married once. Who is really defending marriage here?



""Truth is relative to whatever "progressive" apparition they have today. They are a bankrupt lot. As for the Democratic and Republican organizations, at this point in history, one is as bad as the other, and I believe both parties have lost the standards they once operated by. Just one last thought, to our new lib friends here at Human Events, remember, it was bible based conservatives that founded the greatest society, that WAS.""

Actually the Founding Fathers were old school enlightenment liberals, not conservatives. The conservatives of the day were the Royalists. You know, the ones who pledged their allegiance to George III.

<snip>

I appreciate your response, and the way you expressed your thoughts. I am one conservative that does want to understand the liberal point of view, beyond all the nasty rehtoric, and I want to be understood for my conservative stance and world view. Libs and Cons may never agree on much, but we are all Americans, and if we the citizenry, could start finding and standing on some common ground, with basic mutual respect, finding ways to compromise on the sticky stuff. I truly believe the citizens could change this country, then Washington would have to change. Afterall, isn't the divisiveness of Washington only a reflection of us.

but a bunch of (in her case) empty platitudes.

You didn't change her thinking any more than she changed yours. She's bought her load of bullshit and she likes the way it smells.

Hmmm... Did you know that the more fundamentalist the church, the higher the divorce rate? And that atheists have the lowest divorce rate of all?

=====================================================

I'd really like to back up both numbers with facts.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

Variation in divorce rates by religion:
Religion % have been divorced
Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

you got to the point nicely without resorting to the kind of the sort of name calling the right so often uses.

Since you brought up Newt, remind the other poster that he was the one that served divorce papers to one of his wives (the first one I think) while she lay in her hospital bed after surgery for cancer.

PM me, it gets better.

Human Events is funded by Richard Mellon Scaife, the nut job who attempted a coup against Bill Clinton and who very likely had his son-in-law murdered and investigative journalist Steven Kangas murdered, among too many other crimes to enumerate.

Conservatives posting on that site will never truly see the truth.

"Nothing is never absolutely so".

Einstein says nothing physical can go faster than light, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation

there's a Bene Gesserit axiom, paraphrased. "Belief in absolutes is little more than a cage for the intellect."

Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class -- whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy.

Politics as Repeat Phenomenon:
Bene Gesserit Training Manual


Those who would repeat the past must control the teaching of history.
Bene Gesserit Coda



All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted.
Missionaria Protectiva
Text QIV (decto)

:yourock:

It gets a lot better, PM me..

Unless of course, there are privacy issues involved. But there seems to be enough interest in your conversation.

Newt Gingrich has not defended what he did. He has come clean and expressed deep sorrow. Nor was he the President of the United States, lying under impeachement hearings, for more than just trists in the Oval Office. In fact, I believe Monica was a smokescreen to move attention away from other "honorable" Clinton activities.

As far as barnyard education, animals do alot of things that I do not aspire to. Conservatives are not "hung up" on sex, we just believe in right and wrong. Most conservatives, nor do I, agree that homosexuality is natural. If fact, it is the abandonment of that which is natural. If we were all gay, it would be less that 100 years to extinction. I also believe that fornication, adultry and a variety of other sexual perversions are wrong and promotion of them has not made us better or happier.

Sexuality is not the only morality conservatives are concerned with. Changing to the war, I believe we face a devastating threat and need to protect ourselves from war on our soil. I do not agree with your accusations.

I do agree with you about Vitter, 100%.

Christian divorces, I know its true. I am Christian and have been divorced myself. Not proud of it, but can't deny it. It does not define my life. I could never trade what I have experienced through the Bible and a personal knowledge of a living God, for wedded bliss to an Atheist.

Divorce used to be against the law, or at least impossible to get, but it didn't seem to work well for many of us. Ah....the human condition!

We may have some trouble with old school, new school verbiage here. What I mean is the very obvious, Christian heritage this country has been built on. It was common knowledge, just a few short decades ago, until history started being re-written by progressive/socialist/liberals.

I appreciate your response, and the way you expressed your thoughts. I am one conservative that does want to understand the liberal point of view, beyond all the nasty rehtoric, and I want to be understood for my conservative stance and world view. Libs and Cons may never agree on much, but we are all Americans, and if we the citizenry, could start finding and standing on some common ground, with basic mutual respect, finding ways to compromise on the sticky stuff. I truly believe the citizens could change this country, then Washington would have to change. Afterall, isn't the divisiveness of Washington only a reflection of us.

Thank you for not taking my reply personally.

I guess my first question is my deepest one.

I as an atheist am in more danger from Muslim extremists than is a Christian. Christianity is an Abrahamic religion and Muslims consider Christians to be "people of the book".

Atheists on the other hands are apostates to be dealt with appropriately.

Do you think that the great majority of people feel fear of death?

Why then is it that those who in your eyes should feel the most fear of death tend to be those who supposedly lack contact with God?

Why should a good Christian fear death?

Aren't you sure of your reward?

"""Newt Gingrich has not defended what he did. He has come clean and expressed deep sorrow. Nor was he the President of the United States, lying under impeachement hearings, for more than just trists in the Oval Office. In fact, I believe Monica was a smokescreen to move attention away from other "honorable" Clinton activities."""

Gingrich's history is well known to me and it's pretty sordid.

A serial adulterer if you will.

When Mrs Gingrich becomes less of a sex object how long to you expect Newt to remain married to her?

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.



"""As far as barnyard education, animals do alot of things that I do not aspire to. Conservatives are not "hung up" on sex, we just believe in right and wrong."""

I'm sorry but if that is so, why is it that so many conservative leaders get found out for living truly kinky lives.





"" Most conservatives, nor do I, agree that homosexuality is natural. If fact, it is the abandonment of that which is natural. If we were all gay, it would be less that 100 years to extinction."

I'm about as het as you can get and I know quite a few gay guys 'n gals.

Sexuality isn't something you learn, it's something you are.

When did you decide to prefer women or men as lovers?

"""I also believe that fornication, adultry and a variety of other sexual perversions are wrong and promotion of them has not made us better or happier."""

I agree that adultery is wrong in most cases and that some of what you call sexual perversions are wrong too. Any act that harms another without their uncoerced consent is wrong.


"""Sexuality is not the only morality conservatives are concerned with. Changing to the war, I believe we face a devastating threat and need to protect ourselves from war on our soil. I do not agree with your accusations."""

When you evaluate the threat level fron an opponent you not only look at possible intentions you look capabilities.

How many nuclear armed carrier groups does the Caliphate have at the moment?

What are their chances of having three or four carrier battle groups real soon now?

I grew up in the era of duck and cover. We thought we were going to die at any moment with ten thousand Soviet nukes coming over the Pole and incinerating America.

If you want to have an idea what that might be like read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alas,_Babylon

Thank you as well, for not being offended. I have learned something new in each exchange, and value the experience.

Well, I think Atheists and Christians would both be done, right after the Jews. Were our country to fall into the hands of these people, I doubt even the converted would fair well.
You know what really scares me? If We the People, do not get past the severe divisions (and lack of respect) in our democracy, we will be destroyed from within.

I think fear of death, for varying reasons, is a human component. No matter what our beliefs, we seem to be the only creature on earth that knows death will come. Personally, my dread is "how" will I die. I am afraid of suffering and seeing other people suffer. I may be the wrong person to answer, I can't even watch wildlife shows! Even with a natural death, I fear how it will feel to die. This is where my fear of death ends.

I can not speak for other Christians, or those that say they are, but, I know I am unworthy. It is not MY goodness that I have faith in, so I do not think in terms of reward.

Said to say, I'm sorry that Newt has lost his credibility.
I felt the same way about Clinton. I hope they both have truly confronted, themselves.

Back to the barnyard- My own take is, there must be multiple reasons why so many "professing conservatives" throw themselves over the cliff. 1. Just plain hypocracy 2. Human weakness, temptation, losing faith (the things I do not want to do, I find myself doing, syndrome) 3. Not all conservatives, are necessarily Christians or religious. They may believe in other right-wing principles, i.e., free market, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility-(haha) but do not subscribe to the cultural/moral concerns of other members of the base.

I will be the first to say, many professing Christians have given God a bad name, the Republicans have given conservatives a bad name, and well, conservatives need to straighten some things out in their own thinking. I think we all(libs/cons) need to stop beating each other up over our beliefs. It should be OK for you to believe that homosexuality is a birthright, as well as, for me to believe that it is a choice, and still find something likable about one another. The divided in this country, need to start talking to each other, instead of about each other, or all the disappointing politicians. The vile and slurs that are spewed, on both left and right websites, is abominable. Americans, hating and verbally murduring each other. We all have got to look at ourselves.

I believe there are some things, polically/culturally speaking, Christians must re-think. We of all people should protect, what I believe is the God given authority, to use our free will to make whatever choices we decide for ourselves, no matter how wrong they may be. People should be able to say I am an Atheists, or a Lesbian, or a Christian, without ridicule by government or society.

Lets look at abortion. To a Darwinist, the forced death of a fetus simply is not a crime, morally or legally. Not until birth, are human rights bestowed. To a Christian, I mean a serious believer, this is the worst kind of murder, to a helpless innocent human being and they suffer during the procedure. It is a source of profound heartache to Christians. Yet, there are many wonderful women who want this choice. How do we respect each other in a democray over a volitile issue like this? I think Christians have got to get it, there are lots of things we will hate in this world, and can't remove, and we can't bully around on our "morale authority", but we shouldn't have to pay for them. I do not want to be "in it together" on abortions. How could pro-choice and pro-life people start to hammer out compromises, and really work together. Just a starter, many other issues like it. I may be really naieve, but nobody is going to fix Washington but us.

DPeters,

""Well, I think Atheists and Christians would both be done, right after the Jews. Were our country to fall into the hands of these people, I doubt even the converted would fair well.""

So you see it as a clash of civilizations? A battle royale to the death between the Caliphate and the Infidels?

No one ever answered my question as to how many nuclear armed carrier battlegroups the Caliphate has right now.

"""You know what really scares me? If We the People, do not get past the severe divisions (and lack of respect) in our democracy, we will be destroyed from within.""

To mix up a phrase we are eating our seed corn for a mess o' pottage.

The era of blind consumption just for the sake of consumption needs to draw to a close if we are to survive as a species.

Since no man knoweth the day of His return, don't you think it would be a good thing to have a nice, blue and greeen Earth for Him to come back to?

Being a steward over something carries the implication that you are to care for that something and turn it over in at least as good a shape as you got it.

"""I think fear of death, for varying reasons, is a human component. No matter what our beliefs, we seem to be the only creature on earth that knows death will come. Personally, my dread is "how" will I die. I am afraid of suffering and seeing other people suffer. I may be the wrong person to answer, I can't even watch wildlife shows! Even with a natural death, I fear how it will feel to die. This is where my fear of death ends."""

LOL, I'm one of those people who will stop to pick up turtles off the road and move theme somewhere safe, wade into the swimming pool to save a garter snake when all my friends are thinking I'm nuts.

"""I can not speak for other Christians, or those that say they are, but, I know I am unworthy. It is not MY goodness that I have faith in, so I do not think in terms of reward.

Said to say, I'm sorry that Newt has lost his credibility.
I felt the same way about Clinton. I hope they both have truly confronted, themselves."""

I had my own reasons for not liking Clinton.


"""3. Not all conservatives, are necessarily Christians or religious. They may believe in other right-wing principles, i.e., free market, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility-(haha) but do not subscribe to the cultural/moral concerns of other members of the base."""

People's beliefs can be used to manipulate them, the more ardently they believe something the easier it is for someone to manipulate them via that belief. That's why strong (dogmatic) atheists are a little difficult to deal with sometimes.

It's hard to spot the flaws in people we think we strongly agree with, learn the lingo and say the right thing, push people's buttons and you can get away with a lot.

Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

So many things are a matter of perspective. For many of us looking at Christianity from the outside it really appears that more than a few of you are easily manipulated by snake oil selling charlatans.

But anyone can be manipulated through what he believes and atheists are not immune from that either.

Y'all do realize, I hope, that Jesus the Christ never once mentioned abortion, gays or free market capitalism. A lot of the things the Christ talked of were of taking care of others and turning the other cheek when struck, going the extra mile.

The non-religious and the liberal theists are watching what is going on with the Republican party in horror. The rhetoric coming from the Republicans is truly poisonous in my opinion and a lot of us who know history are starting to flash back on 1934. Your side is terrifying us and just about all the rest of the world right now and y'all don't even have a clue.

Run the words on the Waffen SS belt buckle image below through Babel Fish and let me know what you think.

I want you to know, that your posts have so motivated me that I have now taken to drafting my response in word, with the Book at my side for reference, as I am unable to finish in one sitting (never enough time). So, please stay tuned.

In the meantime, something for you to do;
"No one ever answered my question as to how many nuclear armed carrier battlegroups the Caliphate has right now".

***I must bow to ignorance on this subject. Was hoping that you would elaborate.***

Given that there is no Caliphate, then that they have no carrier battle groups is unsurprising.

The Muslim world is even more fractured than is the Christian world. In Islam there is no equivalent of the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury or even Billy Graham. Islam is a very decentralized religion that has no real central authority.

Given this fact, it is extremely unlikely that Muslims will manage to pull it all together and establish an Islam wide Caliphate to challenge the western world militarily.

Terrorism is a problem, but hardly a civilization destroying one, the terrorists can kill some number of us but only we can take our freedoms away from ourselves.

What is ironic is that Osama bin Laden and others of his ilk understand us far, far better than we understand them. One of the keys to waging war is understanding the motivations of your enemy. The bin Ladens of the world understand us and are playing both ourselves and our politicians like Stradivari.

""No leader should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen; no leader should fight a battle simply out of pique. But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the dead ever be brought back to life. Hence the enlightened leader is heedful, and the good leader full of caution."" - Sun Tzu

""If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."" - Sun Tzu

""He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."" -Sun Tzu, the Art of War


Sun Tzu wrote _The Art of War_ about 2400 years ago, it is still studied in military schools around the world today.

Iraq is Russia's Afghanistan. As the Soviets spent their blood and treasure in Afghanistan, leading to the eventual downfall of the Soviet Union, so are we Americans spending our blood and treasure in Iraq. Hopefully we will avoid the same fate as the Soviet Union but I'm not particularly sanguine about it.

”So you see it as a clash of civilizations? A battle royale to the death between the Caliphate and the Infidels?” *** From the premise that the Caliphate are them and the Infidels are us, yes, I really do see this as a clash of civilizations. I actually thought so, even before Bush said it. I see it, not only as clash of Middle East v. Western culture and ideology, but in the realm of the unseen, a clash of spiritual civilizations. I’m not eluding to anything hocus-pocus, just the basic belief in Good v. Evil, as in God v. Satan. In other words, I am persuaded that there is war in the unseen realm that manifests in human events.

Presently, I do not suspect these current events are the “battle royale”, but certainly, one of many events that are leading to that to that point in time, on the stage of history. The entire Israel/Middle Eastern arena is a barometer, to the person with a Biblical world view. The root dynamic stems from Abraham and his sons, Ishmael (the son conceived outside of the promise) and Isaac (the promised son via Sarah-grandfather of the 12 tribes if Israel) However, no one has any idea, how long it will take for final events, or at what point in time we will know when we have crossed that threshold.***

“The era of blind consumption just for the sake of consumption needs to draw to a close if we are to survive as a species. Being a steward over something carries the implication that you are to care for that something and turn it over in at least as good a shape as you got it.”***I couldn’t agree more. Since the dawn of the industrialized era, we have had to learn the meaning of stewardship, replenishment and balance. One of my biggest disappointments with the Republican admin, is that nothing noteworthy has been accomplished to move this country away from oil dependence. I think it is imperative, not only environmentally speaking, but we have a lethal enemy that could gain control over middle eastern crude and shut us down. Personally, I am inclined to think the later is more pressing than global warming concerns, but would surely help to get off the petrol burning. I’m of the mind, given today’s technology and explosion of knowledge and discovery (what an awesome time to be alive) that we are capable of developing real solutions and ways of doing things better, smarter, cleaner, passing on new and innovative solutions to other industrialized countries as well. I am most definitely not in favor of turning over our welfare to Al Gore and his subscribers.***

“Since no man knoweth the day of His return, don't you think it would be a good thing to have a nice, blue and greeen Earth for Him to come back to?” ***This is not meant to sound flippant at all, but this would be the least of my concerns. I would be concerned with the earth remaining sustainable, for as many generations as will inhabit it. Again, no one knows how long or when His Return is, so we need to take care of our home. Once that time does arrive, I do believe Heaven and Earth will be under “new” construction.

“LOL, I'm one of those people who will stop to pick up turtles off the road and move theme somewhere safe, wade into the swimming pool to save a garter snake when all my friends are thinking I'm nuts.” ***Ditto***

“People's beliefs can be used to manipulate them, the more ardently they believe something the easier it is for someone to manipulate them via that belief. That's why strong (dogmatic) atheists are a little difficult to deal with sometimes.
It's hard to spot the flaws in people we think we strongly agree with, learn the lingo and say the right thing, push people's buttons and you can get away with a lot.”
***Oh, how right you are! For a Christian, it is a responsibility to guard your self from deception or manipulation. The Bible warns of false prophets and false declarations, and instructs that we should be “armed with the knowledge of the truth”, so that when we hear a lie, we recognize a lie. As I have grown in my faith choice and my knowledge of the Scriptures, the Word has become the Authority in my life, the Standard by which I measure all that confronts me. Now, before I sound too uppity, let me declare that I do have times of struggle over who’s got the authority. Oh, and I haven’t found you to be difficult.***

”Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
So many things are a matter of perspective. For many of us looking at Christianity from the outside it really appears that more than a few of you are easily manipulated by snake oil selling charlatans.”
***I have seen professing Christians, taken in by doctrines or practices that I could find no Biblical foundation for, no matter how they spun it. Some were new, zealous babes, eating up everything they were hearing, not knowing, what they should spit out. I really do not understand how the more established Christians get so sideways with certain doctrines. They will ignore a dozen passages that oppose their conclusion, and cling to the one scripture that is benign.
I feel that I should also address another aspect, particularly from the perspective of those looking at Christianity from the outside. The Bible and Jesus Himself, teach many things that would be unacceptably over the top, for some one who is not a believer in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, and the restoration that was accomplished for all. In the opinion of the secular world, Christians believe in fairytales, anyway.***

Y'all do realize, I hope, that Jesus the Christ never once mentioned abortion, gays or free market capitalism. A lot of the things the Christ talked of were of taking care of others and turning the other cheek when struck, going the extra mile.
***You are correct, abortion is never mentioned. However, I would like to offer the following references, that clearly demonstrate the worth, value and ownership of the fruit of the womb. This is a small example of the variety of scriptures that are found, just by searching “womb”.


ISAIAH 44
2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the WOMB, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the WOMB, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
ISAIAH 46
3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the WOMB:
PSALM 139
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's WOMB
9 But thou art he that took me out of the WOMB: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the WOMB: thou art my God from my mother's belly
PSALM 127
3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the WOMB is his reward
ISAIAH 44
2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the WOMB, which will help thee;
ISAIAH 46
3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the WOMB
ISAIAH 49
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the WOMB; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
ISAIAH 49
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the WOMB; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the WOMB to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her WOMB? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee
EXODUS 21
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that HER FRUIT DEPART from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
PSALM 139
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and WONDERFULLY MADE: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Here are a few of the scriptures pertaining to homosexuality;

ROMANS 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their LUST one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
LEVITICUS 18
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is ABOMINATION.
LEVITICUS 20
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an ABOMINATION: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
JUDE 1
7 Even as SODOM and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
ROMANS 1
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the NATURAL USE into that which is against nature:

Free Market Capitalism;
Got me! This will be a great research project. I honestly do not know the origins of capitalism, other than our founding fathers intended to craft a free society, whereby individuals were free to act on their God-given talents, and pursue their destiny. But, if I find that capitalism is inspired by the Bible, I will let you know.

”The non-religious and the liberal theists are watching what is going on with the Republican party in horror. The rhetoric coming from the Republicans is truly poisonous in my opinion and a lot of us who know history are starting to flash back on 1934. Your side is terrifying us and just about all the rest of the world right now and y'all don't even have a clue.”***I agree that we are in terrifying times. I would ask that you would be more specific. I would like your opinion of what is going on in the GOP. Help me out with the reference to 1934. Seriously, I don’t want to be clueless, what are you actually referring to?

Run the words on the Waffen SS belt buckle image below through Babel Fish and let me know what you think. *** Very disturbing***

Something most theists fail to understand about atheists, particularly in the US, is that most of us started out as theists. We therefore understand you far better than you understand us, for the most part we have been where you are.

In general, that which we do not understand we tend to fear. That I think is the primary reason that so many theists fear and hate atheists, you lack understanding.

There are some dogmatic atheists who appear to be proselytizing but the great majority of us just wish to be left alone.

When was the last time the Atheist Witnesses came knocking on your door to convert you to their way of thinking?

As for the battle royale between the Caliphate and the Infidels, prophesy often has a way of being self fulfilling. People are people the world over, cultures differ but people are pretty much the same, want pretty much the same things and mostly want to be left alone to pursue their own life.

Yes, there are some violent passages in the Koran, but if you look with an unbiased eye there are plenty of violent passages in the Old Testament. Under God's command the Iraelites slew the Canaanites for no apparent reason other than to steal their land, that sweet land of milk and honey.

The reference to 1934 is about the Nazi takeover of Germany. Adolf Hitler came to power first as Chancellor of Germany and then as Fuhrer in 1934. I know it's trite and a leftist cliche' to compare Bush to Hitler but the parallels are there for those that will but see them.

"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." -Thomas Paine

Like Bush, Hitler spoke of a glorious future for his country if the people but follow him blindly. Like Bush, Hitler used emotional imagery and religious code words to manipulate his people to do his will. There was a great deal of prejudice against the Jews and the Rom by both the Catholics and the Lutherans of Europe in general and Germany in particular.

Many of us see the parallels between the German prejudice against the Jews and the Rom and the prejudice by many in the US against homosexuals, atheists and secular society in general.

The truly frightening thing about the parallels we see is that Germany in the 1930's was one of the leading cultural centers of the world. Very few, if any, Germans could have imagined in 1930 what their country would do and have done to it in only fifteen years.

Germans were manipulated by their prejudice against the Jews and the Rom, by their nationalistic feelings and by their religious faith to do horrendous things to their fellow human beings. It is truly remarkable how easy it is to get ostensibly independent and adult human beings to do evil to their fellow man in direct violation of their own principles.

Take a look at these two links and let me know what you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." -William Shakespeare

People basically get out of scripture that which they come to it with. If you have a good heart and are a moral person, then you will find yourself drawn to and quoting the more gentle and forgiving parts of scripture. If on the other hand you are a vengeful and angry person you will find verses in the Bible to support those attitudes also. The Bible covers so much ground that there are verses there which support nearly anything you wish to do, and particularly so when they are taken out of context. Interpretation is everything.

""He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself."" -Thomas Paine

""He who is the author of a war lets loose the whole contagion of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a nation to death."" -Thomas Paine

One final task that I would ask of you, carefully read the Christ's parable of the good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37)
and reflect on what it truly means.

To continue, it is often much easier to see things from the outside looking in than it is from the inside looking out. A matter of perspective if you will.

To the great majority of Christians in the US it is absolutely clear that Ahmedinejad is manipulating the emotions of the Iranian people through nationalism and religious rhetoric. It is far less easy to see such manipulation when it aimed at oneself.

Most American's knowledge of Iran starts in 1979 when Iranian militants overthrew the Shah and kidnapped hostages at the American embassy in Tehran.

But there is an earlier incident that most Americans are not aware of and which explains a lot of the hostility of Iran toward America. In 1953 the CIA engineered a plot to overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran, headed by Mohammed Mossadegh as prime minister. The reason for the overthrow was that the Mossadegh government was thinking of nationalizing the oil industry in Iran, something which made the big oil companies angry.

The oil companies then prevailed on their friends in high places, the Dulles brothers being two, and had the CIA engineer the coup which brought to power the Shah and his brutal and feared secret police, SAVAK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

To get back the good Samaritan. Do you know how Samaria and Samaritans were regarded by the Jews of the Old Testament?

Essentially Jews thought of Samaria as being so evil that they would go a long way out of their way in order not to pass through Samaria. And this in a time when transportation was limited to walking or donkeyback.

What did the Christ say about the priest and the Levite in His parable of the good Samaritan?

Can you honestly say that if you were the victim of a severe automobile accident that an atheist or a gay or a liberal would be less likely to stop and render what assistance they could than would a conservative Christian?

Now that you have studied the parable of the good Samaritan, what do you think the Christ would have to say about that situation?

I would hope that it is understood, neither of us are attempting to proselytize, but rather to promote a better understanding of opposing view points that are void of the right/left clichés, sound bites and egregious accusations. I will accept, as you have expressed, that having had personal experience as a "theist" with obvious familiarity with the Scriptures, that it is unnecessary for me to explain the foundation of my views any further.

In response to previous post;

The Good Samaritan story, surely shows, that "our neighbor" is or should be, anyone who crosses our path. How this teaching is applied to a sovereign nation dealing with a threatening enemy, is an area of conflict for many. I hope that I've understood your point.

Although, I knew the events of 1934, I wanted to understand how the left was making this comparison. The cry from the left that “Bush is Hitler-Bush is Hitler”, makes no sense to the righties. To us, this sounds like the lefties will say anything to bash Bush.
Now, that I do have a better understanding of what the left is actually trying to say, I can see the premise that is fostering the comparison. I think this is and should be a valid wariness. History does tell us about ourselves and our motives, we should be on guard, as well as, hold tightly the faith that we put in governments and men. It is a good reminder for every facet of life. At this point in time, I see it as “a bit of a stretch” (thinking turtles) to demonize Bush in such a way. Please understand, I voted for Bush twice, and I am acutely unhappy with his leadership on several fronts. I am not of the neo-con mindset that we should jump at every blinking opportunity to force feed democracy. I am not convinced that, Islam in particular, can become compatible with democracy. But, I am not ready to demonize Bush, and most especially, will not demonize America.

The left is correct, had it not been for the threat of WMD’s, we would not be in Iraq or at least not as soon. So many, worldwide, from multiple intelligence sources, believed that Saddam had WMD’s and emanate plans to go with them. That’s not fear mongering, it’s a wake up call to reality. Maybe we just haven’t found them, maybe they were moved to another country pre-invasion, maybe they never were. Based on the intelligence, coupled with our own knowledge of Saddam, his historical acts and most recent behavior, we took pre-emptive action. To date, it appears we were wrong, about WMD’s. I don’t think we’ll know for sure, for a good long while. If they are, I loathe that bin Laden may have access to them. If they never were and if the Bush administration conspired with others to manipulate the American people and the allies, into pre-emptive aggression, there will be hell to pay. For now, this is far from evident or proven. It may not be known in our life time.

Now, that………….please stay tuned for next post.

I'm not trying proselytize, just explain my own viewpoint and that of many of those on the left. I'm not really a pure leftist as such, it's really better to think of me as Heinlein's "rational anarchist" ie someone who would just as soon have no government but realizes that government is a necessary evil. My actual position on the political compass is right on top of the Dalai Lama.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I have found the political compass to be by far the best test of political views I have seen yet and would urge anyone interested in politics to take it. It's quite easy, all you do is answer some question, there are no right or wrong answers, just your opinions.

Another test I found very illuminating is the Myers Briggs Personality Type Indicator or MBTI. I think self knowledge is a good thing and the MBTI taught me some things about myself that I did not know.

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html

As to the parable of the good Samaritan, I think you have misinterpreted it. The Christ asked the student of the law which of the three men were his neighbor and the student of the law did not pick the priest or the Levite, but rather the Samaritan who took mercy on the injured traveller.

It is the characteristic of having mercy on others which makes one a neighbor ie: caring about the wellbeing of others. The Christ also made the point that mere piousness is neither sufficient nor a requirement for being a neighbor but rather the characteristic of mercy is the determining factor. The Samaritan was neither pious nor a follower of Judaic law, but was nevertheless a good, caring man.

Most of us on the left feel that spreading democracy had nothing whatsoever to do with the invasion of Iraq. Rather it is the fact that Iraq has the the second largest reserve of high quality crude oil in the world, right after Saudi Arabia.

Both Bush and Cheney are oilmen and are still associated with others in the oil business. Many of us look at these facts and see self interest rather than any desire to spread democracy throughout the world. We are either at or very near peak oil right now and worldwide oil production will soon start declining. Oil is what keeps the global economy humming and there soon will be even more conflict over who controls the oil supply. Is it really a moral act to invade and conquer other nations in order to control their natural resources?

From the Western point of view there have been two great ideologies that have wrought untold destruction on the world, fascism and communism. But from the point of view of a lot of the rest of the world there have been three such evil ideologies, the third being colonialism. Colonialism has wrought at least as much suffering and evil in the world as either fascism or communism, but we in the West do not recognize that since we benefited from the suffering and evil committed.

The former colonies of the West though still have vivid memories of colonialism and much of what the West is doing now is very similar to what was done in the colonial period. It is that perception of the West as colonialists that is driving much of the hatred toward the West in general and the US and Israel in particular.

Mark Twain once said that history does not repeat itself but it does rhyme. Americans are particularly ignorant of history and as such are unlikely to see historical parallels for current events. My son in law is a former Marine as am I, he thought I was an unpatriotic idiot for predicting that Iraq was going to be a meat grinder of a quagmire. A prediction that could have been made by anyone with a passing knowledge of the history of the region and was indeed made by many, including Dick Cheney in 1994 and Norman Schwarzkopf at about the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJuMX1GzD6I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=847J99MkUdk

You are right that Islam isn't all that compatible with democracy, however people do have a right to worship as they wish and I would strongly object to anyone that would want to argue otherwise.

Here is an interesting story by a Special Forces officer about his experiences in Iraq.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061211/soldiers_story

"""For just a minute or two, step into my life. I am an American soldier in the Army Special Forces. I have just returned from a one-year tour of duty in Iraq, where I lived, shared meals, slept and fought beside my Iraqi counterpart as we battled insurgents in the center of a thousand-year-old city. I am a conflicted man, and I want you to read the story of that experience as I lived it. In the interest of security, I have omitted some identifying details, but every word is true."""

It is the unfamiliar which is frightening, you have a far, far greater chance of dying in a car accident than by terrorism and yet most people do not feel afraid of taking a drive, even people that are terrified of terrorists.

The whole objective of terrorism is to instill fear and when you allow the terrorists to make you fear them then they have won the battle. Very few good decisions are made from fear, fear short circuits the logical thinking processes and makes people act irrationally.

In the UK during the IRA terror bombing campaign, if a pub was bombed, as soon as repairs were completed it was packed with people showing that they did not fear. But then the UK has a history of being resolute in the face of bombing. My mother was from the UK and drove a double decker bus transporting VIP's around London during the blitz, weaving around bomb craters and listening to buzz bombs and V2's explode all around. She wouldn't go to the underground to sleep at night, said if the Jerrys were going to kill her they could do it in her own bed.

I would far rather see Americans simply ignore the terrorist threat and not live in fear, it would be immensely better for the country.

It's quite revealing that many of the people who most fear terrorists tend to live in places that are not remotely likely to suffer a terrorist attack. My wife is from NYC and we go up there regularly to visit her mother, Mom doesn't even think about terrorism at all and yet she was only about three miles from the WTC on 9/11/2001. That is the attitude that Americans need to adopt.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
-Frank Herbert _Dune_

Thanks for returning to our conversation! I find your thoughts very interesting and straight forward, and again you have given me more reading and listening to do. Please bear with me, husband, home and full time job leaves limited time.

I agree completely with your assessment of the Good Samaritan. But, underneath the illustration of the qualities possessed by a true good neighbor(compassion and mercy), I have always seen in the message, that "our neighbor", being those we should practice compassion and mercy towards, includes anyone in our path, and most especially, those that are unlovely to us.

Getting back to our country, in my previous post, I was working my way to a couple of questions for you, but duty is calling again. Be back a lunch break.

You asked what I thought of your name...

What glass?

What dark?

I understand about responsibilities, I'm a grandpa..

I welcome questions but you're going to get another question back.

What is the meaning of this quotation?

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!


From “To a Louse,” by Robert Burns.

Would you think that would apply to nations as well as people?

""""But, underneath the illustration of the qualities possessed by a true good neighbor(compassion and mercy), I have always seen in the message, that "our neighbor", being those we should practice compassion and mercy towards, includes anyone in our path, and most especially, those that are unlovely to us."""""

Isn't that what the good Samaritan did? Helped a stranger of another faith when two pious members of the man's own faith treated him as rotten meat to be avoided.

Why do you suppose that the Christ had two pious men walk around the injured man like he was a rotted horse and yet the first non pious man that comes by offers him mercy.

Matthew 6:4-6
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Job 8:13
So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish:

Would you consider "God bless America" to be a form of prayer?

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


It's all a matter of perspective.

I too enjoy our chats, it's nice to meet someone interested in intellectual exchange rather than rhetoric and personal attacks.

Very interesting tests at Political Compass and Personality Pathways. Although, I have used the polictial test on the Libertarian Party website, I found PC to be more defining. Actually, took it twice. First, from a strictly inner governance position with answers reflecting personal convictions. Second, from a strictly, free will, free choice, live and let live, personal responsibility attitude with only the necessary rule of law to maintain civil order and peace, attitude. I am still perplexed that the results were only minimally different. Being, that I had already come to evaluate myself as a Christain/conservative/with strong libertairan leanings, still, quite surprised to find myself living right next door to Beethoven. I'm not even in the "right" quad of the chart! Illuminating to say the least. Funny side note, Beethoven and I share the same birthdate, and as a kid I loved to play my violin.

Personality Pathways was most intriguing and confirming to me,
as I have known my tendency to overlook or even ignore surface details, because my focus will be on the underpinnings of a thing, the current below the ripples. But, perception, interpretation and discernment are everything.

The Special Forces officer's story is compelling. I have read it twice and will probably read it again. I have read other first hand accounts from officers and soldiers, but none quite so articulate. I found myself camping on certain phrases he chose, i.e., "Also, Americans are a pragmatic people. We calculate the merit of an action first by its utility".

Are we Americans "the end justifies the means" people?

I still have several other links to follow from previous post, combined with reviewing your answers to my questions. You do cover alot of ground, Sir!

In the interim, there are two questions I would like to pose now; Specifically in contrast to the cautioning parrallels of 1934, why does the left have such affection for socialism? What is your opinion of George Soros and MoveOn?

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!

Oh would some Power give us the gift
To see ourselves as others see us! (??) This seems too easy, I must be missing something?

Cartoon: OK, I'll give it a shot. I see Osama whistling dixie past two nimrods that can't see beyond the end of their noses. I'm stuck at the meaning of the decal, though. Is it an upside down "M"? Or, is the couple just trippin' on something insignificant.

Of all the material I have read today, this may be the most unsettling;
This is likely to be administered for a course of years and then end in despotism ... when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other -Ben Franklin's opinion of the Constitution

Lastly, for today. I want to acknowledge and thank, you and your son, for your service in the Marines.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Your position on the Political Compass I found unsurprising, I had you pegged for a somewhat liberal Christian fairly quickly.

As for the Osama cartoon, what else would look like an "upside down M"?

What do you think Osama wanted the US to do after the 9/11 attack?

I'm a strong INTP on the MBTI scale, my profile is here.

http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html

The article by the Snake Eater was indeed interesting, I learned quite a bit about Arab culture from reading it.It also shows how easy it is to misinterpret social cues from another culture.

If you are interested in reading more from extremely knowledgeable, intelligent and erudite military officers and related types (spooks,etc) I would recommend the following site. I've been reading there for years now and always find the discussions fascinating.

http://www.intel-dump.com/

Yes I do think that Americans are "end justifies the means" types, at least more so than some other nationalities.

Why does the left lean toward socialism? The opposite of competition is cooperation. The right values competition over cooperation, the left values cooperation over competition. These rules aren't cast in stone but they are generally true.

Socialism is essentially a culture wide cooperative effort. Pure socialism becomes a disaster, but then so does pure unfettered free market capitalism. That's why I'm a *rational* anarchist. My view is that government is a necessary evil and if we are going to have a necessary evil I want one that is going to be more likely to help people than punish them.

It isn't generally known but the US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet, bar none.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

Christianity is supposed to be about forgiveness but ours is among the least forgiving of all the societies on our world.

I really don't know all that much about Soros other then he is a very wealthy financier who tends to fund left wing organizations. In that he is very like many other financiers who fund political organizations, usually on the right. Richard Mellon Scaife is one major name, Adolph Coors is another.

I don't know all that much about Move On either other than that they are a leftist activist group. There are activist groups on all points of the political compass ranging from Move On to the John Birch society.

You missed my last question about the Robert Burns quote: Do you think that the gift of seeing ourselves as others see us would be a good one for nations as well as individuals?

I have read the Franklin quote before. Now that you know that the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, how does that effect your thinking about despots? Which side of the political divide would you say leans more toward punishing offenders and which side would you say leans more toward trying to rehabilitate offenders?

I know I cover a lot of ground, to try and get a feel for what is going on around us is an extremely difficult and complex task. I've been learning about and debating politics online for over twenty years now, starting on the usenet political newsgroups, which make any controversy you might read here look like nap time at the preschool, and then moving on to the intertubes when the connections became available to the average citizen. Trying to distill decades of reading, debating and pondering into a relatively short format is a challenging task. A task I'm not sure that I'm able to rise to.

One of the problems I run into trying to impart my knowledge and views to others is that I have synthesized knowledge in many different fields into my current outlook and it is impossible to explain why I think the way I do without conveying a lot of background knowledge that at first glance appears to be completely unrelated to the subject at hand.

Continued...




One of the fiction genres I enjoyed as a child and teenager was the detective story. There is a Sherlock Holmes story called "Silver Blaze" in which the clue that leads Holmes to the solution of the mystery is a dog which did not bark in the night when it should have done so.

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/d/doyle/arthur_conan/d75me/silver.blaze.html

When the president is in danger, the Secret Service takes over, the president is just along for the ride and the SS does whatever it takes to protect the president. Prudence is the Secret Service's policy when protecting the president.

On the morning of 9/11/2001, president Bush was sitting in a grade school classroom in Florida reading "The Pet Goat" to the children in the class. Andrew Card came into the classroom and whispered in Bush's ear that a second plane had hit the WTC and that America was without question under attack. Bush did not react at all, not even to ask a question of Card and he continued to sit in the classroom for at least another six minutes.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SqBRDJ90H-k

The president's visit to the school was on the public itinerary, it was known he was to be at that school that morning. At the time of the WTC attacks it was not known how many planes were involved or what targets those planes might be headed toward.

Given the facts I have just laid out, in your own mind, what would have been the prudent course for the Secret Service to take in properly protecting the president that day?

Did the SS take what you would consider to be the prudent course in protecting the president on the morning of 9/11/2001?

Sometimes a lack of reaction to an event is even more revealing than a reaction would be.

Why did this particular dog not bark in the night?

I hope it stays civil (and sane). I don't believe this woman is a closet liberal however. Perhaps I'm wrong but a lot of her comments are straight from the Rush Limbaugh school of RW spew that I am afraid she'll go back to being brainwashed as soon as she gains some distance from your conversation.

I really applaud your effort though. This is the kind of slow, patient work that can succeed. Good luck!

That's not the typical freeper mentality.

Your conversation brings back fond memories of many conversations I shared with people cut from a similar cloth as your discussion partner. I miss those conversations, as they challenged me as much as I hope they challenged my opponents. They kept me on my toes, and kept me well versed in biblical passages that helped prove my point. ;)

Thanks for sharing.

Good discussion, and I've learned a couple thing myself. :toast: