Why such deference to those who serve in the military?

I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to dismiss the sacrifice that folks make by serving the military, but I just don't understand why such credit has to be given to opinions held by military members. I understand that with direct experience knowledge is generally gained, but why such deference? My husband served in the military and we spent some time living on a military base and from what I have seen servicemen are no different from the general population in regard to personality and judgment. I knew plenty of honorable men and woman as well as dishonorable ones. I bring this up because of the whole Petreus/Betrayus issue. Any thoughts?

in the US the media glorifies war to the point that warriors are now seen, in some ways, by a good percentage of the population as superior

This is a small but extremely vocal percentage

Most folks truly do not realize the horrors of war... and when you try to protray them accurately, people shut you up... better to watch the Green Berets with John Wayne than Go Tell the Spartans or Johnny Got his Gun.

So it is not deference, but glorification of war... signiificant difference

You saw defence for the vets comming back from WW II, but they went back to civilian life and that is it

Over the last thirty years, especially after Nam, there has been an effort to simply glorify war and not teach the actual history of American wars.

Let's be frank, that would include you, me, and most of the posters on this site.

seen the horrors, not as extensively as my husband, but have

And I have seen the consequences too

Some of my background included interviewing survivors of the central american death squads

Some other involves being under fire

I know it is easy to generalize, but there are some on this site that have been there, done that, and at times wake up at night in a cold sweat

If you want I can describe to you, in detail, the horror and actually not fear (no time for that) of crawling into a shootout to get a casualty out of the line of fire

I think the poster made some very valid points. Not sure what you're getting at, in your reply. Please elaborate. Be frank, if you must.

I gave him

;-)

At least he admits he's never served

But if he wears a hat, no one will notice.

Come on. You're making this too easy!

"4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized."

http://www.reallynews.com/fascism14.htm

We need to wake up to an inconvenient truth.

Look I have seen it in the course of my life, and have had discusions wiht popular culture producers

I fear that even tryihng to present some few aspects of the horrors of war was always met with ... that does not sell

You have to wonder why

militarism
One entry found for militarism.

Main Entry: mil·i·ta·rism
Pronunciation: 'mi-l&-t&-"ri-z&m
Function: noun
1 a : predominance of the military class or its ideals b : exaltation of military virtues and ideals
2 : a policy of aggressive military preparedness
- mil·i·ta·rist /-rist/ noun or adjective
- mil·i·ta·ris·tic /"mi-l&-t&-'ris-tik/ adjective
- mil·i·ta·ris·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/militarism

We have become a hideously militaristic society. Even here on a supposedly progressive discussion board, people are outraged that a General would be called a liar. The fact that Petraeus is a liar is irrelevant to these people, as it is to in the false outrage being generated from the Bullshit Media System. The debate is not over "is Petraeus a liar" it is instead over "how dare you call a General a liar", and that is because we are a fascist society. We have not yet tipped over to outright tyranny, but we are damn close.

and incidentally he has also violated the honor code and his duty to protect his troops and to his oath

It's a very unpopular position to hold, but I *do* hold our soldiers partially responsible for the destruction of Iraq. Following orders doesn't cut it for me. Sorry.

If someone joined the military after 2003, they know full well what they were doing. About the only excuse even halfway palatable to me is naivte. This is a war of aggression that we had no business instigating and last I looked, occupation of a sovereign nation is illegal under the United Nations, which we are part of.

I get sick of hearing how patriotic the troops are and how wonderful all of their sacrifices are and I have a very low tolerance for that kind of propaganda. If only I believed it.. Unfortunately, I have had too much contact with military members who wanted to "kick raghead ass."

From "Universal Soldier"

"He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.

He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.

exactly!

The American military industrial complex holds so much power that it's suicidal to even acknowledge that power.

There are other factors involved--like, for example, the specialization of modern warfare means that there are relatively few soldiers who are in active, armed conflict with an enemy, thus it's all far more mysterious than it was (say) during the WWII or Korean eras.

But mostly, it's fear.

Certainly not on this site. Most of the posts I read are from people who hate the military.

but in general.

and I have no respect for the military, whatsoever.

The only people I liked when I was in the Army were the draftees. The rest of them were, on the whole, the worst class of people I have ever associated with.

And all this hogwash about them "defending our freedom" turns my stomach. The only threats to our freedom are from within...

I feel less alone reading this thread - even here at DU, the propaganda has people praising the soldiers.

Colbert had a great segment on honor last night - I think it fits this situation perfectly.

I was in the USAF from 1971 to 1975 (low draft number and really did not want to get drafted in the Army or Marines) and the guys who got out after the first enlistment were ok but the ones who re-enlisted or were livers were, for the most part, dicks. They were capricious, nasty people with a chip on their shoulder and from what I have seen of the military of late that has not changed one iota. Sorry for the rant but serving for four years still gets under my skin. I was treated harshly for the last 1.5 years I was in but I did survive to get the honorable discharge and my VA benefits. I also got to assist on two autopsies of airmen (around the age of 19-20) who committed suicide on base (hanging) because their NCOIC's did not like them and were on their asses constantly. The Pathologist and I really gave the OSI officer a hard time during the postmortem exams. We had both airman's records and saw the needless harassment of these young men by their "superiors." I also got to help transport psych patients from Patrick AFB in Cocoa Beach, FL to the Navel base in Orlando because we did not have the facilities to treat psych patients at the hospital. Most of the cases were young airmen who flipped out. We usually did not know the case history on these. There were usually 1-2 a month going over to Orlando. The docs would drug them up and we would red-light it over hoping the drugs didn't wear off. I can tell you it really sucked!

Military folks were always deemed to be outside the realm of domestic politics plus they lived by a code of honor.

Even after the Bright Shining Lie there was still some reason to believe military folks were someohow different.

BUT, in the Bush admin everything and everyone is about furthering the admin's political interests.

I think the Betray-us thing has been a real "the emperor has no clothes" type moment.

It shocked people to see it at first, but then you realize "Oh my, its true. There is a legitimate question as to whether General Petraeus is working for us or for Bush/Cheney Inc."

Pompous, self-important, vainglorious; every one of them.

There's nothing "noble" about merely being a soldier. You may become a soldier for noble reasons or banal ones or even out of bad motives. As for being a "veteran," so what? So you made some choices, wound up in a war, and survived. That doesn't mean anything about your character or even what you did there.

It's all a big racket anyway, especially the current boondoggle, which makes even less sense than, and is being fought for worse reasons, than Vietnam. I'm at the point where I view anyone who enlisted after, say, 2004, as either a pure-dee "rube" or a knuckle dragger.

But that's just me.

and thrown away?

Veterans used to be able to come home to some sort of support system. They had medical care, the chance to go to school, a time to readjust to civilian life. Their pensions and benefits were not being cut. Now they are shortchanged and ignored.

I think it used to be different when there was a draft. The experience was a bit more universal.

Maybe because some of us see that so many young and promising lives are being destroyed?

Of course there are asshats in the military, just like anywhere else. But we are probably creating more asshats by subjecting them to this experience, unlike anything the rest of us are experiencing, and then leaving them basically on their own.

They are American citizens who have chosen, for whatever reasons, to do something for the rest of us that they regard as noble. We do need a military, like it or not.

We should have similar deference toward Katrina survivors who have not yet received help or compensation. They have been through a war-like experience, too.

Did you see Fahrenheit 9-11? The very end of the movie is quite touching. The young men and women we are recruiting for the military trust us. We do owe them something. Deference and respect is the least we can give them.

FWIW, I hate this war. I hated Vietnam. I hate the false reverence toward the military shown by the bushies and repukes. As far as some genuine regard goes, I think it is deserved. Ask the veterans here how they feel about things. Some of them are surely more articulate than I.

I can honor somebody like Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler. I don't know yet if I can give honor to somebody like Gen. Petraeus. I can honor somebody who truly wishes to defend the Bill of Rights, but I cannot honor somebody who is little more than blindly obedient in the face of commands and orders that would violate the Bill of Rights or the laws of war. We should not encourage or honor blind obedience if we want to continue to claim to be democratic.

Troops returning from Viet Nam were not treated too well and many were looked down upon (because of drug usage, etc). There was quite a backlash from this, hence the phrase, "I support the troops." I was at a Memorial Day parade and the loudest applause was given to the Viet Nam vets. My sister turned to me and said, "Guilt clapping." Americans still feel guilty about not treating veterans who fought in a foreign war with respect. Now it has become a mantra that people say even if they don't mean it.

There has never been one independently verified instance of anyone spitting on or threatening a returning Soldier from Vietnam.

It's the government who treated them like shit and it's a right-wing talking point that in fact, helped turn the country over to these bastards over the past 35 years.

It's a meme that needs to be stopped in its tracks whenever you hear it. Unfortunately, it has become part of popular culture -- the myth of people spitting on Vietnam vets.

My biological father was drafted into Vietnam and came home without a leg and with a lifelong alcohol and drug problem. He says the only people who treated him like shit was the VA - especially after Saint Ronnie the Terrible was elected.

I said they weren't treated too well. It was more of an attitude problem than anything concrete.

Look to General Clark or Lieutenant Kerry.

But you could make the argument that this is becuase they got out of the reservation as accepted by the extreme right wing elements in our country

Soon they will be joined by Admiral Seztak.

... Or so some vets make it sound at times. But just some.

then they find (who they value as) the most impressive looking/sounding/qualified "experts" to deliver them.

If they want to tell us everything's peachy in Iraq, they find a General willing to say that (and keep firing generals until they find one).

If they want to say that global warming is a crock o' shit, they find a scientist willing to say that (and keep discounting science in general until they find one).

If they want to say that it is not the government's responsibility to protect us from national emergencies, they find the former chairman of the Arabian Horse commission, and appoint him to head-up FEMA.

With very few exceptions, we have all been sold a bill of goods about our military.

At its core, a nation's military is the enforcement wing of the government. It's MEANT to be vicious, belligerent, and deadly.

When it's used as a response to an attack, and EVERYONE'S safety is on the line (for real), patriotism & admiration is a natural thing.

Hollywood has ALWAYS been very complimentary to the military. The stories of sacrifice make good movies, and of course if the moviemakers want access to the equipment & locations of war/,military life, they must show the military in its best possible light.

The few anti-war movies we all know of, are the exception...not the rule..

Our modern military (since WWII) has been less than honorable, many times..

Military people are simply pawns.

Jimmy joined the army ‘cause he had no place to go
There ain’t nobody hirin’
‘round here since all the jobs went
down to Mexico
Reckoned that he’d learn himself a trade maybe see the world
Move to the city someday and marry a black haired girl
Somebody somewhere had another plan
Now he’s got a rifle in his hand
Rollin’ into Baghdad wonderin’ how he got this far
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man’s war

Bobby had an eagle and a flag tattooed on his arm
Red white and blue to the bone when he landed in Kandahar
Left behind a pretty young wife and a baby girl
A stack of overdue bills and went off to save the world
Been a year now and he’s still there
Chasin’ ghosts in the thin dry air
Meanwhile back at home the finance company took his car
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man’s war

When will we ever learn
When will we ever see
We stand up and take our turn
And keep tellin’ ourselves we’re free

Ali was the second son of a second son
Grew up in Gaza throwing bottles and rocks when the tanks would come
Ain’t nothin’ else to do around here just a game children play
Somethin’ ‘bout livin’ in fear all your life makes you hard that way

He answered when he got the call
Wrapped himself in death and praised Allah
A fat man in a new Mercedes drove him to the door
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man’s war

except by a few.

But when the topics of warfare and service are brought up, it should be simple logic that those who have been there and done that are going to speak with much more knowledge and experience than those who haven't. Although to listen to some here ramble, you'd never know it.

As far as respect, some of us who have been there and seen the utter hell that is war, know that most here, especially those that love to slam the military, would never have the strength to offer themselves up for the benefit of all. It doesn't matter one whit whether you are for *'s war or not, the military members have willingly chosen to place themselves between you and any who would do you harm. And contrary to the opinion of many idiots here, soldiers cannot simply say "That's it, I refuse, I quit." Military service is not Taco Bell. Part and parcel of the terrible price for the service we chose is that sometimes we wind up at the short end of stick, and with a CinC than we may not particularly like.

One of the reasons we SHOULD be able to maintain our position as a world leader is that our military is strong enough to make sure we should not HAVE TO fight a war in the first place. U.S. interests have always been most strongly served by the fact that the military is out there, not the fact that it is actually fighting anybody. The military members all over the world are there so that you don't have to be. And the fact that they are there is the deterrent that we need. Unfortunately, that deterrent hasn't been properly used of late. And because they have to press on even in the light of that, while we sit comfortably here at home, is EXACTLY the reason they deserve every bit of our respect and deference.

Unfortunately, most here seem to revile the military and look upon it as some extension of BushCo, which is idiotic at best. And it makes me absolutely sick to witness the utter stupidity and vileness of those here who want to constantly equate the military with BushCo.

You all have the privilege of saying and doing what you feel in regards to the administration, but those in the service, who I guarantee want this over a whole lot more than any of you do, do not have the same luxuries, although they assure that you have them.

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You better get your flame suit ready tho because your going to get flammed for that ACCURATE post!!!!!!!!

hands off the military!
ever since vietnam when some antiwar rhetoric was directed towards the military guys returning home there has been a bend-over-backwards effort to avoid criticizing the military IN ANY WAY.

ya see yer not s'portin the troops and you hate amurica if you don't kiss all the military medals ya see.

I agree with you about too much deference.

Back then, when people came back from Viet Nam, they came back in onesies and twosies. They were never very much honored. They grew resentful or disillusioned or just plain pissed off. Those who supported the Viet Nam war never really stood all that strongly with the warriors. Those opposed to the war were more unfriendly than not to the returnees. All in all, it was a pretty fucked up time and it created a lot of fucked up people and fucked up sentiments.

The Yellow Ribbon brigade of today (on both sides) don't want a repeat of that.

Then there's the conflation of war and warrior manufactured by bush's political machine. They knew the potential impact of Onlooker's Guilt and used it as a way to get support for **their** bullshit war.

As for 'The Troops' ...... they're first and foremost .... people. Of all kinds and with all views. Some of them you'd like. Some of them not so much.

You mentioned that those who supported the Vietnam war never really stood behind their soldiers. I'll take it a step further: they were branded as LOSERS by those who supported the war. I've read accounts of Viet-vets who were derided by hometown Nixon apologists and war-lovers. I've seen it right here on DU; Viet-vets going to their local American Legions hoping to find some common ground, only to get grief from cranky WW2 vets who said "we won OUR war, what's wrong with you?"

I can see the right-wing somehow bringing this full-circle onto our soldiers now in the field. With the strongest military in the world, with all that firepower at their fingertips, somehow the ONLY reason we lost will be those very men- and woman-at-arms that they're parading around today. Never mind the half-assed strategy and playground diplomacy that got us to where we are today.

Not saying I agree with it, but I can just see it happening.