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If you are trashing Hillary for her health care plan, then you better trash Edwards and Obama too

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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:07 PM
Original message
If you are trashing Hillary for her health care plan, then you better trash Edwards and Obama too
Because what they proposed is essentially the same thing as Hillary and the plans at this stage are all meaningless "guideposts" if anything. It will all get changed and changed and changed again in the legislative process before anything becomes law.

But please spare me the faux outrage when Hillary's plan is in line with what the other leading democrats are proposing.
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Exactly. All three plans suck.
Edited on Mon Sep-17-07 12:22 PM by Harvey Korman
At least Hillary's plan is a little more simple and straightforward. Edwards and Obama try to hide the fact that you'll still have to buy insurance under a heap of jargon with the label "universal" slapped on it.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. That, they do.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't trash Hillary for that plan. I supported the best parts of it the first time
they were proposed in 2002=3 by Senator Kerry and made a part of his policy proposals.

What I wonder about is why, if Hillary is advocating this policy now, why did she not help advocate for these policy plans when Kerry proposed them, lending some good old-fashioned party backup during that campaign?

Isn't that how Bill Clinton got elected in 92 - other Democrats using their strengths, expertise and cache to advocate for a relatively unknown governor?
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Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. A leading puke already IMPLEMENTED the same, Romney in MA. The Governator in Cali is
proposing the same!!!
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. ok
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think you need to read the proposals a little more carefully because Hillary,Edwards, and Obama
are not proposing the same things. I don't disagree that they are guideposts and will be changed at least somewhat in the political process, but the individual candidates have different visions and that's the point. Their leadership will help drive how much of their vision makes it through.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. No, Edwards plan is much more detailed and it wasn't written by the insurance industry!
Go read Edwards' plan and then say that Hill's plan is "essentially the same".

Their plans are as different as they can be.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Spoken like someone who hasn't read any of plans
and is just jumping in to support HRC.
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. If their plans are the same...
(and I don't really think they are), can I instead trash Hillary for being an "expert" on the subject and yet coming up with a plan just like her two main opponents in the primary have already proposed?
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sueh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. I like Kucinich's plan.
And, please spare me with your you-better-trash-the-other-guys-plan-if you-don't-like-my-guy's (ooops) girl's-plan.

We have been waiting for a single payer system for so long it is imperative we get it right off the bat.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. If you don't ask for it you sure aren't going to get it, that's for sure. Only Kucinich is
asking for a single payer fee for service non-profit health insurance plan.

It's damn time somebody started asking for it.

The other plans are government give aways to private for profit insurance companies. It's the equivalent of privatizing Social Security. Government mandated insurance program participation for private industry profit. It's a fascistic health care system.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. Wouldn't want to cutout the abusive profiteering health care corporations,.......
now would we?
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. No matter what Hillary does the other candidates supporters
will bash her and say their candidate is better. They ought to start bashing the republicans. Telling the truth about their short comings and illegal actions. It only makes their candidate look worst instead of better when they do this stuff.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. why not post links to all 3 plans?
Edited on Mon Sep-17-07 12:54 PM by LSK
:shrug:
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
14. Okay.
The only plan worth spit is true single-payer health care for all.

Tesha
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. That's why I support Kucinich.
I ain't settling for subsidizing corporations.

Fuck the everlovin hell outta that.

Y'all settle if y'all want to.
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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. ok that is logical
Be ideologically pure and wait maybe 50 or 100 years to get what you want when we are all dead and buried or try something politically feasible that may help make things better NOW?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. 50 or 100 years? Other countires have it NOW.
Why do we have to wait? Because our activists want to settle before the game even begins?
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Why wait when Americans could vote for Kucinich who...
has been right on many issues from the start. Why do Americans insist on choosing the candidates that stand for corporate interests and then accept plans that get watered down because of the corporate interest. We are given choices and we usually make the wrong ones and then complain about it? I will be voting for Kucinich in the primaries because our country is headed down the tubes because we keep trusting these career corporate backed politicians with whats best for us and its not working. I want change for the better not the same or worse.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Edwards plan does not subsidize corporations
Please read it.

http://www.johnedwards.com/about/issues/health-care-overview.pdf
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Tax credits?
:shrug:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. elabortate with direct quotes from his plan please
Edited on Mon Sep-17-07 01:06 PM by LSK
Im tired of all this non-documented cheap shot playing with the truth BULLSHIT.

For example,

"Make insurance affordable by creating new tax credits, expanding Medicaid and SCHIP,
reforming insurance laws, and taking innovative steps to contain health care costs."

ITS IS COMPLETELY DISINGENIOUS TO SELECTIVELY QUOTE 2 WORDS FROM THAT SENTENCE WHEN THE NEXT 2 WORDS ARE "EXPAND MEDICAID".

UNFUCKING BELIEVABLE!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Page 1
"The Edwards Plan Will:
 Require businesses and other employers to either cover their employees or help finance their
health insurance.
Make insurance affordable by creating new tax credits, expanding Medicaid and SCHIP,
reforming insurance laws, and taking innovative steps to contain health care costs."
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. TAX CREDITS FOR SMALL BUSINESS, NOT INSURANCE COMPANIES
Edited on Mon Sep-17-07 01:08 PM by LSK
Keep spining thou, afterall this is DU where people don't read things like details.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Why are you shouting?
What difference does it make?

Taxpayer money is handed to small business owner... small business owner uses it for... what now?
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. because i desperately want universal healthcare to change my life
Edited on Mon Sep-17-07 01:14 PM by LSK
And I see Edwards plan as a way to get there.

No offense to DK, his plan would be the desided end result but change does not happen that fast in Washington.

It has to be done in steps and I see Edwards plan as an doable step.

Also I keep seeing these candidate flame wars today and its bothering me and I'm taking it out on you.

Sorry about that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I understand.
I guess I got burned a little too badly by Clinton. I'm worried once president, Edwards would move to the center. :(
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. his law career demonstrates he is for real
Edited on Mon Sep-17-07 01:20 PM by LSK
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3474447&mesg_id=3474447

Headed to the lounge to chill out now.

:hi:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. That's why he's the ONLY top tier candidate
that I could support without serious reservations. (being polite here...)
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I see you edited...
Edited on Mon Sep-17-07 01:15 PM by redqueen
Please answer my question.

What difference does it make who gets handed the subsidy, if it eventually winds up providing profits for insurance companies?
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. It doesnt wind up in the hands of insurance companies, read about his health markets
Edited on Mon Sep-17-07 01:15 PM by LSK
He is using the market to undercut the insurance companies with cheaper prices/better service by offering a Govt plan.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. It would reign in their profits...
but we'd be subsidizing their profits just the same.

Oh well.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. They're probably just using that...
as an excuse to trash Hillery. The fun never stops, does it?

Anyway, I look askance at all their plans since no campaign plan ever has that snowball's chance of passing in its original form.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Clinton's had a good chance.
He had a dem congress for two years.

Interesting that he still got away with doing nothing about the fairness doctrine, like he talked about during the campaign.

Then he signed that Telecom Act... adding insult to injury.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Clinton had a lot of chances for good things at first...
but, ya just never know how it's all gonna turn out.

Some stuff he just plain blew it, and some he really got sandbagged. Which is why I let campaign plans and promises float from ear to ear and off into the wind.

I am interested in just how serious they are in trying to find a workable solution, though. Gotta read the tiny stuff between the lines.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Uh huh. n/t
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
37. I agree.
Universal single payer healthcare: medicare for everyone. It is the only plan that works.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
38. 'faux outrage' - are you looking through your magic mirror into our hearts?
Stop it!
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