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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:36 PM
Original message
Poll question: Should the Congress form a Committee to determine whether PNAC
AIPAC and other groups are engaging in anti-American activites?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick
your vote would be much appreciated.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. I voted yes.
I think that Congress should investigate the role that AIPAC officials played in the neocon/AIPAC espionage scandal.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Do you know that there haven't been any
Edited on Fri Sep-21-07 03:44 PM by cali
investigations into the AIPAC espionage scandal?
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. and most likely will never be.
but they gather really quickly against Move.On ads.
amazing what speed of light that gathered but impeachment is just soooo, lengthy and bothersome and such.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. The trial of the
two fellows who ran the intelligence operation for AIPAC is on-going.

I'm not sure the exact status of the case brought by the late George Ball, former Congressman Paul Findley, and others.

Of course, a US District Court of Appeals recently ruled that the Federal Election Commission must re-examine its earlier decision to exempt AIPAC from reporting details of receipts and expenditures. That reversed the 1992 commission ruling that allowed AIPAC to function without meeting the same standards that other groups of a similar nature adhere to. I am not sure if AIPAC decided to go to the USSC on this. Do you know?
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Yes, understanding the money flows are critical. n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I think that
there are distinctions between saying that Congress should investigate the lies that helped bring this nation to war, as well as what appear to be attempts to widen the war -- no matter what group comes under the spotlight -- and saying there should be another HUAC.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
58. And there is a reason that the poll question was worded in the way it was.
So that a misleading and inflammatory conclusion could be drawn to use in another post which is now locked.


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. There's not one thing wrong with the way
the poll was worded. Nothing. It doesn't lead you one way or the other. And the reason i posted the poll was because of another thread that was getting red'd and advocates blatantly trashing the Constitution. It really fucking pisses me off that so many people here praise the Constitution to the heavens, but when it comes down to brass tacks, they haven't a clue, or they're willing to sacrifice it for political purposes.

And I don't like the conclusion, but it's pretty inescapable. I put all the ingrediants into the question. I used the word unAmerican and the phrase "other groups" You shouldn't have to have gone to law school to have gotten it.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. How about a choice that asks for an investigation without labeling a group un-American?
Edited on Fri Sep-21-07 06:41 PM by PA Democrat
After all, the activities of PNAC are very pertinent when it comes to how we got into Iraq in the first place. Why not try to have a discussion about the issue rather than set up a poll to get a result that you can re-post in an inflammatory manner? What's your point? Trying to prove how stupid other people are? Personally it turns me off.

Edited to add:

The title of your subsequent post "DU votes to reinstate HUAC and McCarthyism" really rubbed me the wrong way. As a member of DU, I don't appreciate your broad brush statement.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. My point is simple
No matter how strongly you feel about certain groups in this country a return to McCarthyism is not the answer. Gutting the constitution to
"save" the country is not the answer. As I explained, this poll was a direct response to a thread advocating just that.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. And I'll repeat MY point, my comment was not directed at the point you said you were trying to make
but rather at the inflammatory methodology you chose to make it. That thread that got locked was nothing but insulting flamebait and you know it.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Ok, that thread was a mistake
but it was NOT posted as flamebait. Doesn't it disturb you even a little bit that people on DU, even if innocently,are advocating trashing the Constitution?
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. H2O Man, have you ever seen this study?
This paper provides a detailed perspective when examining PNAC and US Foreign Policy, as well as the other groups and people involved. What initially interested me was the Figure 1 on page 11. It is a simple, yet adequate example illustrating the influences of our current foreign policy.


U.S. Policy Towards Iraq: Unraveling the Web
Laurence A. Toenjes

Executive Summary

When the United States began transporting troops to the Persian Gulf in the fall of 2002 it was evident that the war against Iraq was underway. This paper was begun in an attempt to answer the question: How did the war against Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda become the war to depose Saddam Hussein?

The effort to understand this change in U.S. policy led to a picture of a relatively small group of persons associated with certain think tanks and other organizations achieving disproportionate influence over the policy formulation process. The activities of fourteen organizations were coordinated by individuals who comprised a web of interlocking memberships...

~snip~

The main contribution of this paper is the attempt to quantify the inter-linked nature of the 14 organizations by cross-tabulating individuals with memberships in two or more of them. Examples: Richard Perle was associated with 10 of the 14, Jeane Kirkpatrick with 7, James Woolsey with 6, John Bolton with 4. Altogether 223 links were found between the 14 groups, where a link is defined as the association of a single individual with two organizations. Although over 650 individuals associated with the 14 organizations included in the study were analyzed, just 9 individuals formed 121 of the inter-group links, accounting for over half of the total. This concentration of the inter-group linkages suggests that a small number of individuals could effectively influence and coordinate the foreign policy impact of these organizations.

~snip~

A major purpose in creating this diagram was to provide a visual representation of the frequently-referred-to interrelationships of core organizations involved with formulating U.S. policy on Iraq...

~snip~

Web of Organizations Involved in
Formulating U.S. Foreign Policy on Iraq



Figure 1 see page 11 (pdf)

~snip~

Observation 4: PNAC has the largest number of links (71 in all, including links of degrees 1 and 2 which are not shown in Figure 1) with the remaining organizations (See row 16, Table 6), followed by CSP with 50 and CLI with 49. The two other members of the 5-member clique identified above—DPB and JINSA—follow with 43 linkages each. This is further evidence of the centrality of these organizations within the complete network of 14

~snip~

Analysis of the 5-member clique

~snip~

Within the 5-member clique, henceforth referred to merely as the clique, some degree of specialization of roles is discernible, and acknowledged in part by the manner in which at least three of the members describe themselves. While there is still considerable overlap in functions, the major roles played by each of the 5 members of the clique might be described as follows:

PNAC Planning function
CLI Coordination function
CSP Information dissemination function
DPB Policy Action
JINSA Interface with Israel

Each of these organizations will be discussed in turn, with a focus on the specialized function they appear to play within the clique...

~snip~

This study was undertaken with some degree of optimism. To the extent that the methodology developed and the knowledge gained has contributed to a better understanding of the development of U.S. policies towards Iraq leading up to the recent war, and to a better appreciation of the predicament in the Middle East in general, that optimism was warranted. The documentation of the roles of several key individuals and organizations has been enlightening. But that same knowledge and understanding have not tempered the feeling that the foreign policies of the Bush Administration are leading the U.S. in a direction that is inimical to many of the ideals which have made Americans proud of their country in the past.


Although the answer to the question “Why are we following this path?” goes beyond the original scope of this paper, a hypothesis does emerge. The hypothesis is that all of the operative incentives are in the wrong direction. These incentives include the following: (a) the political advantages of military actions that appeal to feelings of patriotism; (b) the political advantages of tax decreases for the wealthy, making their future campaign contributions to the party in power more feasible; (c) the economic advantages to major sectors of the economy which benefit from military expansion, from the replacement of expensive high-tech munitions and from the rebuilding of Iraq’s infrastructure; (d) the financial advantages to companies and executives in the energy industry, many of whom have close ties to the Administration and the Pentagon, of greater U.S. control over world oil supplies; and (e) the informational advantages to the military to be able to test in combat new high-tech weaponry, communications systems, and military strategies and doctrines.


It is difficult to come up with a comparable list of incentives that work against these policies. The distinguishing characteristic of the incentives just listed, which tend to support the Administration’s policies, is that they have well-defined beneficiaries—President Bush, military firms, the wealthy minority. Incentives that might favor the majority of Americans often have only widely dispersed benefits, insufficiently discernible by a typical beneficiary to generate intense support...



Cont'd: HTML

(pdf) note: figures/graphs show up better in this version:
http://www.opednews.com/toenjes_IraqPolicyWeb_withTables_July19.doc
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. Interesting.
I had not seen it. Thank you for providing it for us.

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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes. n/t
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. is this in response to something specific, or just McCarthyism in general?
color me confused.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Just a question
someone on another thread was advocating it, and I wondered how DUers felt.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. ok then. i voted no, because there was no option for "Are you freakin' kidding me?"
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Here's a link to
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. i was so much happier before you showed me that
:puke:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Sorry.
You can imagine how I feel. Not so good right now.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
55. I liked rucky's post in that thread
the rest was... depressing.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. me too, it
was the only good post in it.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Are you now, or have you ever been..."
Fuck no. Let's not go there.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. BRING BACK HUAC!!11!
And GIT them bastid commie pee-nacks!
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. In this case it would be the Fascist pee-nacks
It scares me some of you are either ignorant or careless in regard to PNAC
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yes, and connect the dots to the DSM and what went on before the
illegal occupation started.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. You voted yes?
I don't know what to say, except you just voted yes for reauthorizing HUAC. You voted yes for McCarthyism- whether you know it or not.

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. I didn't vote, but I see no problem with investigating connections
of programs or agencies that have probably hurt our country. And please don't tell me what I did or didn't vote for. Perhaps in your mind that's where this went, not mine. Part of our current problem with this admin is they're so secretive and no one knows what's going on. Getting info on anything is like pulling teeth. Are you saying we should all stick our heads in the sand? And why the set-up question? So you can gloat?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. No. I'm not gloating
I'm fucking sad as hell over this. And just as you objected to my assumption that you voted, i object to your clearly rhetorical question about my 'gloating'. I'll try not to assume things about you, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy that you'd like for yourself.

And it was straight forward question. I thought the majority of DUers would immediately see that a Congressional Committee to investigate PNAC AIPAC and other groups, was a straight out parallel to McCarthyism.

It makes me sad, not happy, not gloating, but sad that people missed the forest for the trees.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. Specifically
it should mostly involve those manipulating such philosophical organizations for illegal actions. Ties to criminal activities. The Klu Klux Clan was brought to its knees by criminal cases, but even more by extremely costly civil suits.

After establishing responsibility for its actions and getting set back on its heels by showing criminal collusion with perhaps treasonous acts by specific individuals, perhaps some type of just civil lawsuit could be brought to bear. This is an age when minorities can't get much traction at DOJ but that globally
villages, organizations and nations can be sued by NAFTA carpetbaggers and all lawful institutions and organizations are under attack or threat of attack. If the blowback is legal and customary, bring it on to PNAC and all the other stink tanks, and jailhouse lawyers who have twisted, by power alone, all law into another tool in their jimmy set.

The concerns that are automatic, that such attacks threaten freedoms and rights, should always aim for a restoration of actual law, not to model themselves in reaction to the criminals or the passion for vengeance, to spread the cancer. Yet the crap is already being done to the Innocent. This question should be seen as a restoration of law and taking treason, real treason, seriously.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. this poll must be getting freeped. 14-8 in favor of HUAC?
Edited on Fri Sep-21-07 04:05 PM by MrCoffee
what in the screaming fuck is going on here?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I don't think so.
But it is..... interesting.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. let me at least have the fantasy
it's just freepers, it's just freepers, it's just freepers
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Nope
no refuge in fantasy allowed.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. meanie. and now i'm all sucked into the other thread
great googly-moogly! sometimes you gotta wonder what's in the water around here.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. I didn't vote as I'm not American...
Edited on Fri Sep-21-07 04:07 PM by LeftishBrit
however, I do know elderly people who left America 50-odd years ago due to McCarthyism, so I'm very suspicious of any investigation of political activities as 'un-American'. That's a step on a very slippery slope IMO. If these groups are investigated, it should be to check whether they did something *illegal* - not something as nebulous and hard to define as 'un-American'.

So in short, if I had voted, it would have been "no; in fact - hell, no!"
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You have every right to vote
LB.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. OK then - 19 votes to 11 now!
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. No, No, and No.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. It appears
that by almost 2-1, the answer is yes, yes, yes.

Disturbing, no?
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. yes, yes and yes.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
27. Yes. There's nothing inherently wrong with investigation.
These are corporate entities that appear to desire the undermining of representative government: not human citizens expressing political views as in the case of McCarthyism.

As corporate entities, investigation is critical to understanding how to reign in their corrupt influence on politics.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. and the right of the people to peaceably assemble shall not be infringed,
nor their right to petition the government.

unless we think you're corrupting politics.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. The question needs to surround the use of money to subvert
1 person = 1 vote.

It seems there's plenty of election fraud to suggest a corrupt distinction between money and speech-enabled politics. In my years and experience, it seems like money is free speech, an obvious oxymoron.

A line of questioning might surround whether the organizations encouraged those in their employ to express beliefs not their own.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. What if those powers were
given to Congress now, and next year the repukes took back the House and Senate, do you really want to see MoveOn hauled in front of a reconstituted HUAC?
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Are you saying that those in MoveOn's employ
are not expressing their own beliefs? Have any evidence to back that up?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. What??! NO. I am saying that
once you unleash something like McCarthyism, it's a fucking ugly terrible thing. Do you understand that? Do you know anything about witch hunts?
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. And I'm asserting there's a fundamental distinction between
hauling private individuals in to hearings (McCarthyism), versus hauling private individuals who are not expressing their own political beliefs, but instead the political beliefs of their employer organization.

It's possible that I'm in error, yet you haven't convinced me yet. So that you better understand my point: My basic premise is that money does not equal political speech.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. No. There's not.
It's covered under the first amendment. And unfortunately, there's tons of constitutional law saying that money is speech. And it's most highly protected as political speech. Honestly, this isn't some esoteric claim. It's common knowledge.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I understand that.
Edited on Fri Sep-21-07 05:05 PM by SimpleTrend
Yet, we have (is it) Thom Hartman(?) who asserts that the ruling granting corporate "personhood" to corporations was a sham or clerical error. If so, it's reasonable to assert that derived doctrine based upon error needs to be amended by The People.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. I know. I've heard Thom say
that for years, but I don't see that it really is germane anyway. PNAC is not a corporation, and you'd have an impossible time proving that it's a corporate front.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. ok, you are talking about campaign finance
"My basic premise is that money does not equal political speech" - that's campaign finance

we're in a whole different territory here. congress, the FEC, the states, and public interest groups investigate campaign finance violations all the time.

again, i agree 100% that campaign finance laws are a joke. but that's a far cry from investigating a group as "un-American" based on their political beliefs.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Are you asserting that "campaign finance" got us into the Iraq war?
If so, I'm not certain I understand how that possibly could be.

You wrote:
"but that's a far cry from investigating a group as "un-American" based on their political beliefs."

I would rewrite as:
"but that's a far cry from investigating a group's monetary connections (motive) and commandment to employees to parrot a line of thought that is not actually reflective of the employee's true thoughts on a particular political matter.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. You made the same exact assertion re: PNAC employees in Post 34
You answered your own question: We don't need evidence, we can just issue a subpoena to appear before the congressional committee.

If you're talking about campaign finance (again, Post 34), the current campaign finance laws are a joke and should be scrapped in toto and rebuilt from the ground up. In a perfect world, that could happen. In this one, it's unlikely. If you're talking about curtailing political speech, either by individuals or assemblies of individuals, I fundamentally disagree with that.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Campaign finance may be related, but was not the main thrust of my
assertion. Read Post #42.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
32. Lousy Idea
why would we want to boost their fundraising like that?
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
36. After reading this little study, yes: U.S. Policy Towards Iraq: Unraveling the Web
This paper provides a detailed perspective when examining PNAC and US Foreign Policy, as well as the other groups and people involved. What initially interested me was the Figure 1 on page 11. It is a simple, yet adequate example illustrating the influences of our current foreign policy.


U.S. Policy Towards Iraq: Unraveling the Web
Laurence A. Toenjes

Executive Summary

When the United States began transporting troops to the Persian Gulf in the fall of 2002 it was evident that the war against Iraq was underway. This paper was begun in an attempt to answer the question: How did the war against Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda become the war to depose Saddam Hussein?

The effort to understand this change in U.S. policy led to a picture of a relatively small group of persons associated with certain think tanks and other organizations achieving disproportionate influence over the policy formulation process. The activities of fourteen organizations were coordinated by individuals who comprised a web of interlocking memberships...

~snip~

The main contribution of this paper is the attempt to quantify the inter-linked nature of the 14 organizations by cross-tabulating individuals with memberships in two or more of them. Examples: Richard Perle was associated with 10 of the 14, Jeane Kirkpatrick with 7, James Woolsey with 6, John Bolton with 4. Altogether 223 links were found between the 14 groups, where a link is defined as the association of a single individual with two organizations. Although over 650 individuals associated with the 14 organizations included in the study were analyzed, just 9 individuals formed 121 of the inter-group links, accounting for over half of the total. This concentration of the inter-group linkages suggests that a small number of individuals could effectively influence and coordinate the foreign policy impact of these organizations.

~snip~

A major purpose in creating this diagram was to provide a visual representation of the frequently-referred-to interrelationships of core organizations involved with formulating U.S. policy on Iraq...

~snip~

Web of Organizations Involved in
Formulating U.S. Foreign Policy on Iraq



Figure 1 see page 11 (pdf)

~snip~

Observation 4: PNAC has the largest number of links (71 in all, including links of degrees 1 and 2 which are not shown in Figure 1) with the remaining organizations (See row 16, Table 6), followed by CSP with 50 and CLI with 49. The two other members of the 5-member clique identified above—DPB and JINSA—follow with 43 linkages each. This is further evidence of the centrality of these organizations within the complete network of 14

~snip~

Analysis of the 5-member clique

~snip~

Within the 5-member clique, henceforth referred to merely as the clique, some degree of specialization of roles is discernible, and acknowledged in part by the manner in which at least three of the members describe themselves. While there is still considerable overlap in functions, the major roles played by each of the 5 members of the clique might be described as follows:

PNAC Planning function
CLI Coordination function
CSP Information dissemination function
DPB Policy Action
JINSA Interface with Israel

Each of these organizations will be discussed in turn, with a focus on the specialized function they appear to play within the clique...

~snip~

This study was undertaken with some degree of optimism. To the extent that the methodology developed and the knowledge gained has contributed to a better understanding of the development of U.S. policies towards Iraq leading up to the recent war, and to a better appreciation of the predicament in the Middle East in general, that optimism was warranted. The documentation of the roles of several key individuals and organizations has been enlightening. But that same knowledge and understanding have not tempered the feeling that the foreign policies of the Bush Administration are leading the U.S. in a direction that is inimical to many of the ideals which have made Americans proud of their country in the past.


Although the answer to the question “Why are we following this path?” goes beyond the original scope of this paper, a hypothesis does emerge. The hypothesis is that all of the operative incentives are in the wrong direction. These incentives include the following: (a) the political advantages of military actions that appeal to feelings of patriotism; (b) the political advantages of tax decreases for the wealthy, making their future campaign contributions to the party in power more feasible; (c) the economic advantages to major sectors of the economy which benefit from military expansion, from the replacement of expensive high-tech munitions and from the rebuilding of Iraq’s infrastructure; (d) the financial advantages to companies and executives in the energy industry, many of whom have close ties to the Administration and the Pentagon, of greater U.S. control over world oil supplies; and (e) the informational advantages to the military to be able to test in combat new high-tech weaponry, communications systems, and military strategies and doctrines.


It is difficult to come up with a comparable list of incentives that work against these policies. The distinguishing characteristic of the incentives just listed, which tend to support the Administration’s policies, is that they have well-defined beneficiaries—President Bush, military firms, the wealthy minority. Incentives that might favor the majority of Americans often have only widely dispersed benefits, insufficiently discernible by a typical beneficiary to generate intense support...



Cont'd: HTML

(pdf) note: figures/graphs show up better in this version:
http://www.opednews.com/toenjes_IraqPolicyWeb_withTables_July19.doc
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
49. wow, almost 3 to 1 in favor of HUAC
I guess you guys voting "yes" because of a specific gripe with AIPAC or PNAC didn't catch the part about "other groups", eh?

Please remember that someday, maybe sooner than we would care to imagine should frequent gratuitous displays of congressional cowardice continue into 2008, the Democrats will be a minority party again. When that happens, are you prepared for the list of "other groups" investigated for "anti-American activities" to contain MoveOn, ACLU, democraticunderground, maybe the Sierra Club? Hell, even the so-called "Democratic" senate came pretty close to officially designating MoveOn as anti-American this week.

Be careful what you vote for, you might just get it.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Unfuckingbelivable isn't it?
I'm pathetically grateful to you for simply posting what you did.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. I'm pretty much shocked, I didn't think it could happen here
The fact that DUers didn't catch the parallel to McCarthyism is really amazing.
:wow:
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
54. How very sad (the results of the poll now are 32-13).
What happens when the tables are turned? Seems some can't see the forest for the trees. Of course, I also suspect why some might vote a certain way, but that is just an opinion.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
60. Yay, McCarthy!
Proving that "liberalism" does not always mean tolerance, free speech or civil liberties. To be fair, though, you did sort of skew the poll. I think Congress should investigate PNAC for actual crimes, not for "anti-americanism" (which is not a crime).
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. I don't think I skewed the poll
The poll question was pretty clear- you understood it, so did quite a few others.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
63. No n/t
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