As a Dentist, please allow me to say that

If you're going to post on dental topics, the first thing you must do since you're pretending to be experts is to spell the technical words correctly- to wit:

FLUORIDE (not flouride or floride or flooride)
CAVITIES (not cavaites, cavitees, or cavitis)

The second thing to do is realize this: people used to DIE ROUTINELY FROM DENTAL INFECTIONS and it will happen again if breakdown is allowed to happen throughout the population.

The third thing is that you cannot ask people to self-medicate with fluoride reliably. There are many many reasons for this. Read a public health textbook if you want to see all of them.

The fourth thing is that morbidity and mortality involving dental breakdown is enormous. You need to read up on that concept as well, although it is not as complex as particle physics, it is not simple. Risks vs. Benefits and all that.

The fifth thing is that you may not care what happens to others - I and almost all my colleagues do. We have put ourselves in a giant economic hole by advocating public health measures and we are proud of it. Please don't tell me what your dentist charges and all that stuff. That's for another day and another thread.

The sixth and final point I wish to make is that you'd be surprised how people's health has improved during the 30+ years of my practice - I have seen remarkable progress in healthiness of the elderly due in no small part to the ability for them to retain their teeth.

I sure don't want to live in that world.

but this is a very important issue, and if the masses are allowed to believe this stuff, they are once again going to be cheated of good health and avoidance ofeasily preventable disease.

:rofl:

the hard way. Until Uncle Fred dies of a dental infection that spreads to his brain, the rest of the family probably doesn't give a second thought to dental health.

People decry fluoridation of water supplies because treatment becomes involuntary.

It would be very interesting to do a study of people who drink only non fluoridated bottled water to track a decrease in oral and overall health.

I envy people who grew up with fluoridated water. I didn't, and I inherited lousy teeth. The combination was a very, very bad one.

I'm thankful. Two fillings my entire life and I'm 52.

And when my child was starting to use a bottle the ex put small drops of fluoride in his water. He is now 25 and hasn't had any fillings..

...The second thing to do is realize this: people used to DIE ROUTINELY FROM DENTAL INFECTIONS and it will happen again if breakdown is allowed to happen throughout the population...

What breakdown? As far as I know, there is very little dental care provided to the needy now. I realize that reducing what services are available will have a negative effect. Are you predicting that services will be withdrawn?

Just wondering.

DMFS (decayed missing filled surfaces index) when increasing causes higher morbidity and mortality over the long haul. The loss of systemic population-wide fluoridation will cause this index to increase markedly.

Don't believe anecdotal stories about someone's sister or next-door neighbor. This is population biology.

If so, I hadn't realized that.

Most dentists do not...I think that is the biggest factor here..

Now there is a shrine to dental health.

:P

and just because some small amount of fluoride was good for tooth decay was no reason to dump it into the water we drink.

ON EDIT:

You're correct in pointing out that fluorine gas is deadly, but totally wrong in assume that fluorine in all its forms is deadly. Fluoride ions dissolved in water are not.

If you were to eat a piece of metallic potassium your stomach would literally explode like a bomb and your whole body would catch on fire. That doesn't mean you should avoid potassium, its essential to your nerve cells operating. Not just essential to them operating well, but operating period.

Fluoride ions replace hydroxide ions in the mineral component of our teeth. Fluoroapatite has a greater hardness than hydroxylapatite, therefore is less prone to decay. That's all that's happening.

at the water treatment plant has the word "toxic" in big letters on it.

http://www.physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_fluoride.html

http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_fluorosilicate.html

Like I said, breathing a cloud of fluorine gas or eating a piece of metallic potassium will kill you, but that doesn't mean that low concentrations of the ions aren't helpful....

Either that or stop muddling the discussion with tangents. I agree that higher concentrations of fluoride are more toxic than lower ones. It seems some here don't think that there are any concerns at all with fluoride, and I was stating the required labeling on a bag of the salt. I posted links to MSDS here as well.

Bill

The ions are dissolved in water in low concentrations and are known not to pose a risk. Of course the packaging for highly concentrated fluoride has a warning, but that's not what people consume is it?

And you accuse me of muddling the discussion with tangents! LOL!

Low concentrations of fluoride in water are implicated in a number of health problems, including dental and skeletal fluorosis. The ADA recommends against using fluoridated water to make baby formula. There is mounting evidence that fluoride can contribute to bone cancer. Of course, most of the sites discussing this, such as those already linked in this thread, are poo-poo'd here as having an anti-fluoride agenda, while the ADA site is cited as gospel. That double standard is inhibiting discourse here.

BTW, fluoride was never proven safe before it was added to drinking water. Thank you for bringing this topic to the discussion. I believe it requires serious attention.

Bill

But I know I don't want to go swimming in any pools that don't have it.

Chlorine compounds in drinking water are highly regulated. The ideal would be for your tap water to have so little chlorine in it that it evaporates as you fill your glass. What does that have to do with tooth decay?

Bill

at the water treatment plant has the word "toxic" in big letters on it. I was merely pointing out that I would imagine containers of chlorine are labeled toxic also. But who would ever discourage the use of chlorine?

that regulates chlorination by-products and so discourages the use of chlorine. When we find a method to disinfect water that is less hazardous than chlorine I suggest you invest heavily in it. In fact, ozone and UV are two ways of disinfecting water that are becoming increasingly used. Unfortunately, one problem with chlorine is also it's advantage over the competition. While ozone dissipates rapidly, and UV doesn't effect water past the UV source, chlorine stays in the water distribution system long enough to kill bacteria that lives in the system. That means it is still in the water that comes out your tap.

There is a problem with black and white thinking here, the tradeoffs inherent in our public water systems are not discussed with an eye toward adjusting the system as time and research evolve. At least that is true in this thread, where people ask me why I prefer cavities when I ask for proof that fluoride in drinking water prevents cavities. Why do I hate America, too?

I have posted comments of a dentist who cites at least two studies suggesting, if not proving, that fluoride in drinking water does not prevent cavities. I have asked for any proof that fluoride in drinking water does prevent cavities. There is no proof available here. I have seen comments about fluoride from the ADA, but the ADA is not citing research that specifically tested drinking water. The studies Dr. Kennedy mentions may actually indicate that fluoridated toothpaste is responsible for the drop in cavities that the ADA attributes to fluoridated water. Why are people so invested in being incorrect?

Bill

and the label reads that it is highly toxic...but once dispersed in the water, it is extremely beneficial. Non-chlorinated (or brominated) pool water can be dangerously high in bacteria.

The OP takes pains to point out that people should have no choice when it comes to fluoride. I disagree, and challenge the poster to provide evidence that fluoride in drinking water is the best way to prevent cavities.

BTW, the chlorine in your pool has it's drawbacks too, but I agree that bacteria can be a problem, and you are making a judgment call that I might make too.

Bill

with no chlorine, now am I?

are you going to say that Magnesium, present in your cellular constituents should not be in food or vitamins? Or ascorbic acid either?

It's just pure and utter BS. That's what you should be sorry about.

There's a lot of information out there to wade through.

http://www.fluoridefacts.org/fluoride/pdfs/MYTHSvsfacts.pdf

# Fluoride is a mineral that occurs in almost all food and water supplies and comes from the element fluorine, the 13th
most abundant element in the earth's crust. It exists only in combination with other elements as a fluoride compound.

# Fluoride is all-natural and is found in rocks and water. It acts as nature's cavity-fighter the same way naturally occurring drugs have produced medicines that protect human health.

# Fluoride prevents tooth decay and helps repair the early stages of dental problems even before decay becomes visible.

Myth: Fluoridation is mass medication by the government.

Fact: Fluoride is not a medicine. Under government control, municipal water supplies already contain other elements designed to make water safe to drink. Fluoride is found in water, soda, beer, juices, tea, and other products consumed by hundreds of millions of people around the world daily.

Picture one inch in 16 miles of roadway if you want to appreciate how small the amount of fluoride is needed in water to prevent tooth decay.

in the lakes and ponds in my area is less than 0.2 ppm. The water we drink is about 1 ppm. The EPA allows 4ppm before saying that the water is a health hazard. The drinking water level is set based on the assumption that there is no other source of fluoride in our lives besides drinking water. That is to say that there is no fluoride in fruits and veggies, soda, prepared food, etc. Since we use fluoridated water to make prepared foods and soda, and we water our fruits and veggies with fluoridated water, I would like to see a study on how much more fluoride we ingest that we did when the fluoride lever for drinking water was set. Do you happen to have one? Plus, can you reference any study that shows that fluoride makes any difference to our teeth after it is ingested?

Bill

Links to research
http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fluoride/index.asp

-----------------------

http://www.fluoridefacts.org/fluoride/flu_facts_myths.asp

Every major scientific fluoride study conducted over more than a half century has found fluoride to be the single most effective method for preventing tooth decay. The safety of water fluoridation is the most studied public health issue in American medical history.

Myth: Fluoride causes cancer, kidney damage, skeletal fluorosis, genetic damage to chromosomes, a decrease in fertility, an acceleration in aging, and does not help prevent tooth decay.

Fact: There is no scientific evidence to support any of these allegations.

-----------

Myth: Opponents have scientific facts and major dental and health organizations supporting their claims.

Fact: Many of these organized groups use issues such as freedom-of-choice and anti-pollution arguments to try to win over voters and turn fluoridation into a political issue instead of a health issue. Anti-fluoridationists use scare tactics to spread false, irrelevant, and misleading information - often from obscure journals or publications - to try to raise doubts in voters' minds. Fluoride supporters are backed by major health and dental groups, including the American Dental Association, the American Medical Association, the Mayo Clinic, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Center for Science in the Public Interest, the National Health Council, the National Academy of Sciences, the National Cancer Institute, and the World Health Organization.


----------------

So, I'm sure you can look up numerous scientific studies by using your favorite search engine.

in answer to my questions, just say so. Your post makes no differentiation between fluoride in toothpaste and fluoride in water.

Bill

Find your own dam studies!

The ignorance is just astounding. Next we will be reading that taking baths isn't all it's cracked up to be. :crazy:

my teeth are much better for it

Amazing, that people OUTSIDE the US are happy about things like this, and public vaccination campaigns.

but aids in it

And the city in question, Mexico City.

Damn I love it when people tell me that something that HAPPENED did not

and reduction of both due to flouridation

I cannot help you any further if you desire to engage in magical thinking and conspiratorial thinking.

As I said, my water supply had it. We also got flouride from the dentist, orange flavor as I recall. My teeth are in far better share than they would be otherwise.

While I'm sure you didn't mean this...the first hit, LOL!:

MORTALITY AND CANCER MORBIDITY AFTER HEAVY OCCUPATIONAL FLUORIDE
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/121/1/57.pdf

You may want to note this:

"...Findings showed no relationship between fluoridation and observed changes In general mortality over the 20-year period...."
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/107/2/104

Here's another:
http://fluoridealert.org/health/accidents/hoffman-1980.html

See also my post below listing some of the many countries that stopped using it.

And while I'm thrilled at your good dental health, your report, as I'm sure you know, is anecdotal.

# Fluoride is a mineral that occurs in almost all food and water supplies and comes
from the element fluorine, the 13th most abundant element in the earth's crust.
It exists only in combination with other elements as a fluoride compound.

# Fluoride is all-natural and is found in rocks and water. It acts as nature's
cavity-fighter the same way naturally occurring drugs have produced medicines
that protect human health.

http://www.fluoridefacts.org/fluoride/flu_facts_facts.asp

#35 - Virginia Beach, VA - Pop. 433,461 -- Fluoridated - 1952

LOL

Good lord.

A lot of things to be embarrassed about lately.

To think that people see this crap and think that we're might all buy into the evil conspiracies of fluoridation.

The song "Wonderful World" by Sam Cooke plays in my head:

Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took

But I do know that I love you
And I know that if you love me too
What a wonderful world this would be

Don't know much about geography
Don't know much trigonometry
Don't know much about algebra
Don't know what a slide rule is for.

But I do know that one and one is two,
And if this one could be with you,
What a wonderful world this would be.

Now i don't claim to be an "A" student,
But I'm trying to be.
So maybe by being an "A" student baby
I can win your love for me.

Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took.

But I do know that I love you,
And I know that if you love me too,
What a wonderful world this would be.

Go. Be fearless.

http://www.google.com

Will wonders never cease!?

I don't think I'd like to be that fearless(ly ignorant).

Dump it into a river in high concentrations? Or add it to public water supplies in concentrations that are known to be non-toxic to perform a very well understood ion replacement that hardens tooth enamel?

Stoichiometry. Be brave!

Most dentists support fluorination. A dissenting voice should not be used to disproportionately represent the field.

Here's what one dentist says:



http://www.nofish.org/new_page_17.htm

So do you have any blind studies that support the contention that fluoride in water reduces tooth decay? Please don't reference anything that doesn't rule out fluoridated toothpaste as the cause of the reduction in cavities.

Bill

* More than 65 major national and international medical, scientific, dental, and public health organizations have endorsed fluoride, including such world-renowned institutions as the American Dental Association, the American Medical Association, the Mayo Clinic, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American School Health Association, the Center for Science in the Public Interest, the National Health Council, the National Academy of Sciences, the National Cancer Institute, Great Britain's Ministry of Health, the Canadian Public Health Association, and the World Health Organization.

Flouride Facts (PDF) http://www.fluoridefacts.org/fluoride/pdfs/FLUORIDE%20Facts.pdf

:shrug:

;)

and I have posted 2 times with links to facts.

I answered your question.

you wouldn't buy a newspaper from them.

They prohibit vaccinating any child under the age of two.

Why? because of justifiable concern, also known as the Precautionary Principle.

When an American scientist scoffed at a Japanese scientist over the Japanese allowing this to happen without any studies, the Japanese scientist graciously pointed out that in about five years his nation would have amassed plenty of studies - involving databases of the health effects suffered by American infants forced to have 31 innoculations before their first birthday.

Our children are the guinea pigs for the rest of the world.

You can remove it from yours.

that almost immediately stopped when fluoride was added to our water.

Look for my post. Meanwhile, I and my 2 siblings grew up with fluoride and dental care and our teeth are good looking because of crowns, veneers, fillings, fixed bridges, bonding, you name it. Without all that crap, we'd be half-toothless. My mom grew up without fluoride and dental care, and her teeth are almost gone. I think the fluoride thing is a well-designed myth we prefer to believe because the alternative is too ugly to think of. (That we've been had).

He's an expert.

It's possible. But there are to many factors missing, like
how much sugar did you eat as a kid? Brushed after every meal? etc.

Or are you just giving anecdotal evidence because it fits your feelings? Which is fair enough, because that's what I often do. But, you were calling for evidence and proof earlier, so I'd like to know if you had any actual proof to back up your distrust of the fluoride within our water system.

never had that many sweets.

I can remember having pepsis on Saturday night was a big deal.

All soda pop was banned. We got it on holidays like the 4th of July. And we never got to chew gum. That was a huge no-no.

:)

it's up to him to back that up. As a chemist I know that there is no easy, low-cost way to remove fluoride from water.

Bill

Edit: Sorry, you said....

Surely you realize you can always buy bottled water. Did you learn about that in chemist school?

And I've found plenty of bacteria in bottled water. Besides, why should rich people be the only ones not subjected to fluoride?

And as a chemist, I understand fluoride better than most. I also understand research, and I understand how little research about fluoride validates the statement that fluoridated water prevents cavities. I keep asking anybody to produce research that backs up that statement, with nothing to show for my inquiries. Most fluoride research either disproves that statement, or does not rule out topical fluoride as the way to prevent cavities. I've posted as such here in this thread, and all I get in return is insults.

Bill

are pretty tired of the ignorance here. Especially on this topic.

That research you ask for has been posted here many times. Sorry you missed it.

You can't come up with one link. I'm pretty tired of the ignorance displayed here.

Bill

:eyes:

Double the RO filters, readily available at any hardware store. Two series will remove over 99.9% of all dissolved ionic species, down to a conductivity of 10 micromhos.

You will then have to add back sufficient sodium, potassium, calcium cations with chlorine and sulfate anions to make it healthy as drinking water.

Cheap, effective, and efficient. The RO's backflush so you never have to change filters.

And, as a chemist, you should know that distillation is cheap and easy and removes almost ALL ionic materials, as long as you have at least one-half stage of separation(theoretical plates) on the condenser.

Come on, Bill. This is Chem 101 stuff! I know guys like you and i went all the way into the 600's in chemistry, (and then some), but you should know that there is almost nothing easier than distillation.
The Professor

you obviously have the school pay for all the energy bills you run up. Sure, RO and distillation are chem 101, but they aren't as cheap as tap water by a long shot. But thanks for the input, most of the replies I've received here are long on trash talk and short on information.

Bill

If it gets in your lungs, it'll kill you!

:rofl:

http://www.gopetition.com/online/2479.html">Ban DiHydrogen Oxide- Please sign this petition and help stop This Invisible Killer!!

i signed the petition because it`s not a laughing matter. if it`s not stopped now humans will succumb to the horrors of dihydrogen oxide. :spray:

by giving them fluoride treatments since they were very young (probably in the 60's or 70's...not sure.) Not one of his three boys ever got a single cavity. The rest of the family (Parents, Aunts, Uncles, cousins all had MANY cavities. He never admitted to us that he was treating his boys with fluoride until about 5-10 years ago. If I had known or been given a choice I would have asked for them for my family. Gee, he would have saved himself a lot of money as he gave us all free dental care. Damn, he's retired now and I have to pay!!

We've always had health care, from the time we were young and our teeth are a F mess. I think cavities or the lack of them has nothing to do with putting fluoride in the body, or the absence of fluoride in the body. My father had no fluoride till he arrived here as a quite-old adult, he never flosses and never flossed a day in his life, never had a dental cleaning in his life, and has all his teeth and no cavities. I'm not making this up, either. We recently convinced him to go to a dentist (convinced he must have had some nasty periodontal situation going on). He didn't. The dentist was shocked.

Tooth health has lots to do with lots of things. Sometimes it's genetic, or it's the Ph in your mouth, or it's your diet, and lots of other things.

I had flouride but drank a lot of pepsi and had many fillings. My boys have had no flouride treatments, barely any soda or candy (compared to their friends) and no flouridated water yet they have NO cavities! Why not educate parents on more practical solutions like not letting their kids swill sugar all fuckingday?

now treating my family with fluorides.

My mother had all her teeth capped in her early 20's because they were literally crumbling. We had fluoridated water and fared a bit better but not much. My father on the other hand had great teeth but the gums got him in the end and he lost his teeth. My mother still has her capped teeth.

:rofl:

and not really b/c the guy was a dentist or the anti-dentite speech, which was hilarious in its own right. the combination of the story lines and the guest stars was perfect.

Use throughout the world

Water Fluoridation is prevalent in the United States. Most developed nations previously fluoridated their water, but stopped or banned the practice.<18> Some examples are as follows. The years when water Fluoridation started and stopped are in parentheses:

* German Federal Republic (1952-71)
* Sweden (1952-71)
* Netherlands (1953-76)
* Czechoslovakia (1955-1990)
* German Democratic Republic (1959-90)
* Soviet Union (1960-90)
* Finland (1959-93)
* Japan (1952-72)

In spite of this, the prevalence of dental decay has decreased in both Western Europe and the United States.<19> Some countries had water fluoridation but then abruptly stopped the practice. These countries, including the former East Germany, Cuba, and Finland, have continued to see drops in the incidence of tooth decay.<20> Based on this evidence, opponents conclude that water fluoridation is unnecessary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy

fluoride or there is endemic fluoride already in the water supply.

So are our water resources much different here in the US?

Do the people in India have the best teeth in the world? Around my state it is less than 0.2 ppm in the surface water. It is adjusted to 1 ppm in the drinking water.

Bill

Do you have any study that shows how fluoride must be taken internally to produce positive results? Do you have any study that shows how fluoride produces positive results when taken internally?

Bill

I then moved to Montana, which does not fluoridate its water and in six years I got 11 cavities. I wonder, can I sue the city of Bozeman for the cost of my fillings?

we had well water. I also did not take a prescription for it as my 11 month old daughter does. I never even saw a dentist until I was 25. I had one cavity. ONE.

Now, my husband, he was made to take fluoride, had well water also. His teeth are in pretty bad shape.

:eyes:

great fucking quote. :hi:

Sid

indeed

:rofl:

have a higher incidence of tooth decay?

I have heard that people who drink less fluoridated tap water, because they drink more bottled water, have more cavities.

I for one cannot give you an answer form my practice b/c my parents know to supplement the kids with Poly - Vi-Fluor or the equivalent. It is said that bottled water kids are showing similar tendencies to cavities and therefore to eventual periodontal disease states. Further, many kids also drink juice boxes or soda (!), etc which are generally made with Fluoridated water.

It is a fascinating business and not for the intellectually lazy.

that "dentist" is not capitalized.

:hi:

It was quite deliberate, believe me.

:hi:

The lack of common sense on remedial science issues here on DU routinely makes me cringe in embarrassment.

Good dental health has been demonstrated to have HUGE benefits to your whole health.

Thank you for your post.

I'm tired of horseshit science coming from mouths of disruptors and liars and profiteers. I could write a book on the dental stuff which I hear and which is not only counter-intuitive, but just reeks of bad science.

...but DU has a pretty bad infestation of "bad science" on a wide range of topics, including yours.

with a healthy dose of old fashioned conspiratorial thinking

And yes, there are good ol' fashioned conspiracies running out there, but..

My other favorite one is bird flu... never mind the first warnings we got them in '97 from the WHO...

Or my other all time favorite, vaccination and the evils of such.

Things are bleak when even on DU I see the same bullshit nonsense coming from my fundie relatives.

I've even seen people here suggest AIDS is not caused by the HIV virus :eyes:

we are at the threshold of a new age of witches and warlocks

I think Doctor Sagan had a point

As I tell my patients: "I've done this thousands of times and I've never felt a thing."

The infection traveled to his heart and he nearly died. They had to cut him open and replace a valve.

Because of a dental infection.

and would never run out of stories...scary, funny, sexy, you can't imagine.

That'll build your audience.

Sorry you'll have to read the chart:

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/teeth/caries/who-dmft.html

Sourced by WHO:

http://www.whocollab.od.mah.se/euro.html

oral hygiene techniques, nature of dentifrices, type of toothbrushes(!), types and frequency of applications of topical fluoride, etc.

Many countries, including New Zealand and others have significant Dental Nurse practitioners and other methodologies of delivery of dental care.

if the public's health is going to benefit from dental treatment then the government should subsidize it. Many conditions can be caused by bad teeth and gums, including problems with pregnancies and birth. Also, oral cancer can be detected at an early stage with frequent dental check ups.

over a lifetime. Don't think so? Ask any practicing dentist over 55.

anecdotal evidence?

Bill

then (s)he would produce a study rather than suggest we ask a single person. I know the difference between anecdotes and facts. When I give anecdotal evidence, I state as such, and suggest that research is needed.

Bill

When people get attached to nonsense based on circular reasoning (such as claiming any attempt at refuting of their BS makes you a "shill") it's nearly impossible to talk sense into them.

Is it REALLY that difficult, folks?

And I didn't notice any of them calling anyone else a shill, or making insulting comments.

But thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

If there is one dimension of the political ideology I share with my fellow DUers that I would excise IMMEDIATELY it is this anti-scientific nonsense. Denying the effectiveness of fluoridated water and vaccination is the LEFT-WING EQUIVALENT of denying evolution. Sadly, it comes from the same source -- ignorance.

The discussion was stagnating prior to your illuminating post.

Or put food on your family as your pResident once said...


Tell all your friends and neighbors not to imbibe water with fluoride, stay away from reconstituted drinks, etc. Stay in the same neighborhood for 20 years - then build a big electrified fence to keep out all the people trying to do you bodily harm. You will deserve it when they figure out how you caused their children to be, as we call it in this business, mutilated.

Good luck to you anti-fluoridationists - I'm off to watch the Eagles kick the crap out of the Giants and I'm resting on my laurels from the Phillies' win today.

with lower cavity rates than the US? Ah, but there they've made advances in dental care!

Wise words indeed.

I mentioned that there may be some question as to the proper dose of flouride but I didn't mean to imply that we should abandon flouride. As a matter of fact, I took pre-natal flouride to protect my children's developing teeth because our water wasn't flouridated.

But, I have to ask for a simple answer to a simple question and will try not to make it about money too much (even though that's what it boils down to).

I am disabled, living on only $623/mo SSI and have Medicaid (fully paid incl Prescriptions)

But it is strictly NO DENTAL COVERAGE

I have advanced gum disease and at this point spend 20-25% of every year sick from it.

A regular dentist wants $300/tooth just to pull them out, a dental school wants $150/tooth

I can afford neither.

So each time I get an infection flare up (once or twice a year)

The only recourse I have is to have my MD prescribe antibiotics to knock it back.

These antibiotics now have to be so strong (Cleomycin) that it makes me very sick.

WHEN is all of this going to CHANGE? And, of course, why does a 5 minute extraction cost so much?

Regarding the second question, it's never a 5-minute procedure. Oh, maybe it seems like you're in the chair for five minutes (although I'd hope your dentist would allow a little more time for the anesthesia to take effect than your five minute total would appear to indicate). But there is also the time my assistant has to spend for disinfection and sterilization which you don't see and soemtimes longer than the patient's chair time. There is the time other employees have to spend dealing with the financial issues, particularly insurance (I know you don't have insurance, but if the non-insured patient got a lower fee, that would be insurance fraud and thus illegal). There is also something I call the zero effect. Whenever someone finds out I'm a dentist, whether it be a landlord, a vendor, an insurer, a plumber, an electrician, an HVAC repairman, an attorney, a banker, a tax assessor, whatever, their bills always get some extra zeroes at the end of their fee.

As for the first question, maybe when HR 676 passes. I know, I know. Somewhere close to never. It may also be a mixed blessing from my end if it does pass. All my employees have health insurance (and no, there's no salary deduction, I pay the premium 100%). That's a huge expense for me. Certainly the 3.3% that HR 676 calls for would be a lot less. However, if patients treat single payer healthcare like they treat Title 19, in my anecdotal experience of treating Title 19 patients for four years (so it could certainly be flawed), I'll wind up with a lot more no-shows for scheduled appointments. While I felt sorry for a lot of people on Title 19, they did break a lot more appointments.

treatments of fluoride. This I do not want to do.

Tangent, I know, but I've been wondering about it since I heard it somewhere.

why do insurance companies pay so little or nothing at all for dental procedures. i `m not talking about vanity but medical treatments,dentures,and braces.

I'm curious as to why they draw a distinction. I went without dental insurance- and thus, dental care- for over six years, and now I'm almost afraid to go in for a checkup because of what will need to be done that I know of (and I'm even more afraid of the stuff I don't know of). Irrational, yes, but then, I already know it will probably be painful and have to be repeated at least once, maybe twice, before all the cleanings and drillings of cavities and pulling of wisdom teeth is completed.

I could have had consistent dental care for all those years, but dental insurance wasn't offered until just this January and I couldn't afford dental insurance. So why is dental considered "not medical", especially since there are a number of serious medical conditions that can result from poor dental health?

(Caveat: my teeth are in no way as badly off as I may make them sound above; however, I know I do have a few cavities, my remaining three wisdom teeth need to come right out, and I am seriously overdue for a simple cleaning. I'm sure there's a lot more- which, as I said, contributes to my fear of going in the first place. Again, it's irrational, but there it is.)

Please realize that some people think that they have to be experts on everything, even if it means resorting to rumors, innuendo, and flat-out lies. It's even easier to do in relative anonymity on an internet web forum.

Unfortunately, others tend to believe the people spreading the misinformation because the misinformers are rather vociferous in their ignorance.

Weekly Reader 50 goddam years ago. Flouride is NOT hazardous, and is beneficial IF your public water source lacks it. Ver, very few natural water supplies have flouride, those that do you simply don't add it in. Flouride stops cavities, which in turn prevents a lot of infections, which cause deaths,,,attacks heart muscle and thyroid and other nice to have pieces and parts.

my gawd this stuff has been tested, retested, verified, analyzed to death. Hell, you don't want flouride, give up polio vaccines too, most of you are to young to remember polio. I am of an age where there was at least one polio cripple(yes we used the word cripple)in every single classroom, and worse every small town had two or three iron lungs going.

DO NOT LISTEN TO FOOLS when it concerns your and especially your childrens health!

that shows a positive effect on teeth from fluoride that has been taken internally? If so, could you reference it?

How about we just have fluoride in our toothpaste, not in the water. Then it would be easier to make a personal choice about using fluoride, rather than have that choice forced on you.

Bill

:crazy:

the link in your post didn't come through. I do however, reject your premise that the alternative to fluoride in water is tooth decay. That's why I want to see a study referenced.

Bill

Surely you know lots more about searching for studies than I do.

Now where's my free healthcare so I can actually fix the problems I do have with my teeth...which there are many?

It's great to talk a big game but if you're not willing to vote for candidates who actually believe in single-payer not for profit healthcare what's the point?

I agree with your position on this, as well.

I WILL KICK THEIR ASS. I adore my dentist and until I was made to take horse pills for MVP (even for cleanings) I didn't even realize how serious dental infections can be.

An historic moment in the battle against water fluoridation

It took about forty days for a dedicated team working with the Fluoride Action Network (FAN) in several countries and across North America to achieve an historic moment in the battle against water fluoridation.

On August 9, 2007, FAN released a statement signed by over 600 professionals calling for an end to fluoridation and a call to legislators in fluoridating countries to hold hearings to determine why, after the release of the landmark National Research Council report in 2006, aggressive promotion of fluoridation continues.

UPDATE: 980 signers to Professionals' Statement as of 9-26-07.
If you are a professional, add your name to the Statement.

The signers include:

• Arvid Carlsson, Nobel Laureate for Physiology or Medicine, 2000
• Doug Everingham, former Federal Health Minister (1972-75), Australia
• Two advisory board members of the UK government sponsored “York Review”
• Dr. Theo Colborn, co-author, Our Stolen Future
• Chris Bryson, author, The Fluoride Deception
• The Board of Directors, the American Academy of Environmental Medicine
• Two officers in the union representing EPA professionals in DC
• The current president and six past presidents of the International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology
• Two Goldman Prize winners
• Dr. Lynn Margulis, a recipient of the National Medal of Science
• Ken Cook and Richard Wiles, President and Executive Director, Environmental Working Group (EWG)
• Dr. Vyvyan Howard, newly elected President, International Society of Doctors for the Environment (ISDE)
• Dr. Peter Montague, Director of Environmental Health Foundation
• Dr. Ted Schettler, Science Director, Science and Environmental Health Network
• Stephen Lester, Science Director, Center for Health, Environment, and Justice (CHEJ),
• Pat Costner, retired Senior Scientist, Greenpeace International
• Ron Cummins, Director, Organic Consumers Association
• Sandra Duffy, Board President, Consumers for Dental Choice
• Leo Cashman, Executive Director of DAMS (Dental Amalgam Mercury Syndrome)
• Dr. Sam Epstein, author, “Politics of Cancer” and Chairman, Cancer Prevention Coalition
• Jay Feldman, Executive Director, Beyond Pesticides
• Prominent members of the Collegios Medicos, Puerto Rico
• Gary Liss and other leaders in the Zero Waste movement
• Over 100 medical doctors
• Over 100 dentists
• Over 100 PhDs
• Environmental leaders from over 30 countries, and
• Legendary folksinger, songwriter and activist, Pete Seeger

The 600 signers represent a remarkable coming together of those concerned about fluoride and those concerned about mercury issues; doctors practicing conventional medicine and those pursuing alternative treatments and the public health and the environmental health communities. All believe that public health policy should be determined honestly with full attention paid to sound science and to ethical principles.

http://www.fluorideaction.net/professionals.statement.html

Where is the "fluoride" coming from . . . ???
Do we really know???

I had not really looked into this topic, and came to this thread without any kind of conviction one way or the other. I was curious enough to read the entire thread, though, and while reaching no conclusions, I developed an uneasy sense at the vehemence of the fluoridation proponents (of the "methinks thou dost protest too much" variety), suggesting an all-too-familiar pattern. (Conventional wisdom holds no sway over me whatsoever). So now I'm REALLY curious. I will bookmark this for follow-up, thanks.

:crazy:

:rofl:

nt

How clever of the poster to omit that! :silly:

The poster has no proof, it's all just political brouhaha.

like they are gods. This fellow is very misinformed and is passing on his misinformation to you. Fluoride is toxic no matter how you want to spell it. PCintern, you've got a LOT of learning to do...go do it.

Acute fluoride toxicity occurring from the ingestion of optimally fluoridated water is impossible.104

The amount of fluoride necessary to cause death for a human adult (155 pound man) has been estimated to be 5-10 grams of sodium fluoride, ingested at one time.140

This is more than 10,000-20,000 times as much fluoride as is consumed at one time in a single 8-ounce glass of optimally fluoridated water.

You'd be dead from H2O poisoning long before the fluoride in it got to you!

against fluoridation. And here you're telling us to ignore the dentists and doctors.

Which is it? Or are we only supposed to listen to the dentists and doctors that agree with your sadly misinformed opinion?

Sid

to the fluoride issues and other controversial dental issues from the establishment view,
go to the website of the International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology.
This an organization of scientists and dentists who are dedicated to finding the truth
beyond the politics (and there is a lot of politics) of these issues. They
are sincerely dedicated to your health.

http://www.iaomt.org/articles/category_view.asp?catid=34

IMO. Where do the poor and elderly go when they need a 1k root canal caused by an abscess that can potentially kill them? Why are there no programs for these groups? I see parallels between your profession and auto mechanics.
There are no alternatives to treatment or prices.
I do not wish to imply that you are part of the problem, but I have nothing but contempt for the dental industry.

I stated at the outset of this thread that this was neither the time nor the place to get into discussions of the cost and the 'business' aspects of dentistry.

If you were to have sudden loss of vision in both eyes, would you go on a message board and complain about how much the ophthalmologist is making? Or would you effusively praise him or her for restoring your sight?

quite frankly, I'm trying to help here and if you want to start a thread discussing economics of dentistry, go right ahead. You'd be quite surprised as to how we in the profession feel about such matters. you really would.

many cannot afford the health care costs associated with yearly cleanings. What can be done to create a balance between health delivery and cost?

When someone tells a story about themselves or her sister, or whatever and that they had fluoride but it didn't do any good...the point is being missed. From a population standpoint, the health is improved - there are always individual cases - many of them, wherein the pathology is exhibited despite the treatment. there are many factors and individually you cannot predict with certainty what will occur or not occur.

by anecdotes? :evilgrin:

Sid

... in a discussion about aggregate averages is possessed by few, if any DUers.

"I know this, because me and all my friends had their grad school paid for."

I am so doomed; I just had about $5K worth of root canals, amalgam fillings and gold crowns done only to find out from the interwebs that RCTs are sealing is death and my crowns are guaranteeing it and my nice, sturdy amalgam fillings are going to cause brain weevils. Or something. And now they're poisoning our precious bodily fluids. Dammit!!

This happened recently. My older dog had to go in for unrelated surgery but had to be anesthetized so I told the vet to go ahead and do a dentistry on him since he was already under. Good thing I did. He had a loose half rotten tooth that just had to be hurting him like hell. But he couldn't tell us. Must have been like torture. The vet extracted the tooth and he is like a different dog now. Smiling, spinning and tail held up high.

My female dog is going in this morning for a dentistry.

Don

Everyone knows that fluoridation is a communist plot to contaminate our precious bodily fluids:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove_or:_How_I_Learned_to_Stop_Worrying_and_Love_the_Bomb

Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I-I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women, er, women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.

especially today when my tooth is killing me. I've had hell trying to get a root canal with this sorry dental insurance I have. I've been on antibiotics to fight the infection twice. I've been to four separate dentists--all said I needed a root canal--two didn't take my insurance ( and this is after looking them up on my provider list), one was an specialist, (was sent to him after one of the dentist said my tooth was "hyper-sensitive" and wouldn't perform the root canal) who wanted $1500 for the root canal alone, not even covering the crown, and didn't take my insurance or provide a payment play. This has been going on for a few months. It's ridiculous.

This has been an ongoing nightmare. In fact, just this morning I was wondering whether to cancel this insurance and go with someone else. I've got to get this tooth fixed.

:argh:

It's not like they can use the excuse that frivolous lawsuits are driving up dental costs.

I'm so frustrated. I pay monthly dental insurance--that's it and it's for the specific reason of getting this root canal and keeping up my dental care. What an effing pain in the ass this has been and I STILL don't have this painful toothache fixed yet. I can see how people go crazy:crazy:

Our dentist refuses to do my root canals until I wear special braces to widen my teeth. :crazy: I didn't even know they made such a thing! So I guess after I wear those for who knows how long and he finally gets done with the work I need, I'll have to purchase another set of braces to tighten my teeth back. BAH!

If you go to another insurance company there is a "waiting period" before you can use it and also, look for the words "pre existing condition". You have to understand...YOU loose and the insurance companies and doctors are laughing all the way to the bank. See my post this morning in general discussion "Just my two cents worth" on this subject.

You are very right about the necessity of dental care.

And I never realized there was a War on Fluoride (TM) from the left until I came to DU.

tell 'em there's fluoride in the chemtrails.

Sid

*Any purported benefits of fluoridation are in scientific controversy. Studies from 50 years ago do not pass muster under today's standards for safety or effectiveness. Research from the same era also "proved" cigarettes don't cause cancer.

*Even the AMA concedes that no studies were done to determine any side effects caused by fluoridation.

*The fluoride used for water fluoridation does not have FDA approval and is considered by the FDA as an "unapproved drug". The proper use of any drug requires an understanding of how much is too much. Since fluoride is already in many foods and beverages, an estimated total intake of existing fluoride amounts is imperative. Research shows fluoridation is unnecessary since we're already receiving 300% or more of the American Dental Association's recommended daily amount.

*Constitutional and Civil liberty issues regarding the forced mass medication of the population when alternative means of reducing cavities are easily available, such as tooth brushing. Even so-called mandatory school immunizations provide exemptions for parents who wish not to participate.

*The chemicals used for fluoridation are not high purity, pharmaceutical quality products. Rather they are byproducts of aluminum and fertilizer manufacturing and contain a high concentration of toxins and heavy metals such as arsenic, lead and chromium. All proven to be carcinogens.


http://www.nofluoride.com/


"I would advise against fluoridation.. Side-effects cannot be excluded .. In
Sweden, the emphasis nowadays is to keep the environment as clean as possible with regard to pharmacologically active and, thus, potentially toxic substances."
- Dr. Arvid Carlsson, co-winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine (2000)

"The American Medical Association is NOT prepared to state that no harm
will be done to any person by water fluoridation. The AMA has not carried out any research work, either long-term or short-term, regarding the possibility of any side effects." - Dr. Flanagan, Assistant Director of Environmental Health, American Medical Association.

"I am appalled at the prospect of using water as a vehicle for drugs.
Fluoride is a corrosive poison that will produce serious effects on a
long range basis. Any attempt to use water this way is deplorable."
- Dr. Charles Gordon Heyd, Past President of the American Medical Association.

"E.P.A. should act immediately to protect the public, not just on the cancer
data, but on the evidence of bone fractures, arthritis, mutagenicity and other effects." - Dr. William Marcus, Senior Toxicologist at E.P.A.

"Water contains a number of substances that are undesirable, and fluorides are just one of them" stated Dr. F. A. Bull, State Dental Director of Wisconsin, speaking at the Fourth Annual Conference of State Dental Directors.

surely a site called nofluoride.com publishes good scientific information without an agenda. Right?

Sid

When the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) nominated water fluoridation as one of the top 10 public health achievements of the 20th century, it published a graph (see Figure 1), which showed the reduction of cavities in US children coupled with the increase in water systems that have been fluoridated since the 1960's. The CDC referred to the graph with the statement:

"as a result , dental caries declined precipitously during the second half of the 20th century."

However, what the CDC failed to mention is that similar declines in tooth decay have occurred in virtually every western country, most of which do not fluoridate water (see Figure 2).

Figures source by WHO

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/teeth/caries/who-dmft.html

that's not good science...

no one ever said that fluoridation alone was sufficient. Worldwide, additional methods of caries reduction have been implemented which contribure to improvements in dental health.

What should I be aware of before I have my teeth whitened?

Also, I use enamel care toothpaste & ACT-1 which is supposed to strengthen enamel. Am I wasting my money or do these products help at all?

Why do dentists tell you never to poke at your teeth with a sharp object & then the first thing s/he does is take an ice pick & attack?

Kidding!

can't generally do any harm.

good luck...just know that if you have red lines streaming from the corners of your mouth, you should get off the tartar control toothpaste.

how refreshing!

The world is "going to Hell in a Handbasket!"

...and other cliches.

:hi:

extracted..total cost??? $400.00 Just extraction under normal conditions. No surgery etc. Novacaine shots, crack crack & remove.
Dental care is what I do at home. I cannot touch the cost of an office visit.
Unfortunately.
No insurance now, and what I once had covered minimal with a high deductable.
But then, in all fairness, I cannot afford an annual doctor checkup either. Its a matter of health care costs across the board soaring out of reach for the average American.

Appreciate the post, but its a moot point, in my case.
I do the best I can as my teeth age and surely would be better if I could have them tended to on a regular basis.
However, the cost of any procedure deemed necessary would probably make the office visit irrelevant.
Health care reality in the USA.

Thanks for posting this. Another conspiracy that I didn't even know about debunked.

(But admit it-- the sound from the suction thing you guys use is really a govt. brain-tracer, right?)

and raise a crop of dental floss.

:pals:

Without teeth there is no chewing
Without chewing there is no eating
Without eating there is no nutrition
Without nutrition there is no health
Without health, what is life?

Thank you for your work, doctor.