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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 04:53 PM
Original message
Islamic Bigotry: The Slaughter of 4,000 Gays
At Columbia University on Monday, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad declared: “We don’t have homosexuals like in your country. We don’t have that in our country. We don’t have this phenomenon; I don’t know who’s told you we have it.”

If there were any truth to this – and there is none – it would be because because the Islamic regime in Iran had killed them, since homosexuality can be a capital crime in that country. One notorious case occurred on July 19, 2005, when two teenage boys, Mahmoud Asgari, 14, and Ayaz Marhoni, 16, were hanged in a particularly brutal manner in Iran for the crime of homosexual activity. Although Iranian officials insisted that the death sentence was for the rape of a third boy, the National Council of Resistance of Iran, has said otherwise. But Asgari and Marhoni were not alone. According to the Iranian gay and lesbian rights group Homan, the Iranian government has put to death an estimated 4,000 homosexuals since 1980. According to Scott Long, director of the Human Rights Watch Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Rights Program, Iranians who are suspected of being gay commonly face torture. Hossein Alizadeh of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission said Iran gays live with “constant fear of execution and persecution and also social stigma associated with homosexuality.”

This is true not only in Iran, but in all too many areas of the Islamic world. The Qur’an characterizes those who “practice your lusts on men in preference to women” as “transgressing beyond bounds” (7:81). A hadith pronounces “the curse of Allah” upon those who engage in homosexual activity. A contemporary Muslim writer, Shaykh Abdul-Azeez Al-Fawzaan, called homosexuality “one of the most sinful acts known to humankind” and said that it was “evidence of perverted instincts, total collapse of shame and honor, and extreme filthiness of character and soul.”

snip:
In many areas these injunctions are still followed. The Islamic Penal Law Against Homosexuals in Iran calls for the death penalty for sodomy and one hundred lashes for lesbianism for the first three offenses, with death for the fourth offense. Homosexuality is a capital offense not only in Iran, but also in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen and Mauritania. In Malaysia, it can draw a twenty-year prison sentence, and is illegal also in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, the United Arab Emirates, and Uzbekistan, among others.

Of course, Afghanistan under the Taliban regime drew international attention for killing gays by toppling walls onto them. Pakistani law mandates two years in prison for homosexual activity, but the traditional Islamic penalties of lashing and stoning are still widely popular. When authorities in the United Arab Emirates arrested twenty-six men whom they accused of participating in a mass gay wedding – with twelve dressed as grooms and twelve as brides, plus a disc jockey and a man who was to perform the wedding ceremony – in November 2005, they announced plans to subject the men not only to lashings and jail time, but also to hormone treatments.

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=FBC2142D-4A38-4B4C-9C0B-4B0AA4CF3822
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good point.
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. show this article to anyone who says people choose to be gay.
Why would anyone choose to be gay in a atmosphere like that.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Bingo! Why would anyone?
:thumbsup:
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
44. Or to anyone who cries about "toleration".
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you, Cynatnite.
But I'm afraid the cultural relativists around here may criticize you for being anti-Islamic.

:shrug:
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 04:58 PM
Original message
Attack Iran RIGHT FUCKING NOW...so the gays can live in peace
and harmony!
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Because that's exactly what this is about
:sarcasm:
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Lame. n/t
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. Right ...that's what the OP was calling for
:sarcasm:
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. This section is worth repeating.
Note - nobody (least of all the Saudi-loving Bush regime) is suggesting invading all of these nations. Pointing out that a country is guilty of human rights violations is NOT the same thing as wishing them harm or advocating military action against them.

However, if we ignore human rights violations when it is convenient to do so, we allow those atrocities to become the norm. We tacitly condone them if we fail to recognize them. Please don't forget our brothers and sisters in humanity who have been tortured and murdered!

Homosexuality is a capital offense not only in Iran, but also in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen and Mauritania. In Malaysia, it can draw a twenty-year prison sentence, and is illegal also in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, the United Arab Emirates, and Uzbekistan, among others.

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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. and used to be illegal in texas till what??? 2003???
some sodomy laws still exist...
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Was it a capitol offense?
Were gays and lesbians in constant fear of arrest, prosecution and incarceration?
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varun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. USA is not in a position to preach tolerance for gays and lesbians
If anyone can do it, it would be Western Europe and Canada.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. I am
as a private citizen. My state is. Massachusetts is. Individual NGOs focusing on Human Rights are.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Meanwhile, 120,000 gays slaughtered in Iraq.
600,000 women, 480,000 children...
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's still not genocide...go start your own thread insisting...
on your own point of view. :eyes:

Were the 120,000 gays hanged for being gay?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Actually, they were shot and bombed for being muslims.
So if a person can't acknowledge that, it's hard to take them seriously when they pretend to be worried about oppression of minorities.

Especially when they use that oppression in an attack on another minority; Islam.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Do you have proof to back up your claim?
Edited on Tue Oct-02-07 05:22 PM by cynatnite
Or is that your opinion? The gays in Iraq were hanged for being gay. There is no disputing the evidence in that regard. I have yet to see proof that the US Government is intentionally wiping out the Iraqis because of their religion...especially when the war is about oil and not their religion. If your belief is that they are being killed for their religion that's your choice, but sources sure do help your case.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Why do you think 120,000 gay Iraqis were slaughtered, cynatnite?
Edited on Tue Oct-02-07 05:28 PM by Bornaginhooligan
I can think of two reasons.

1. For their oil.

2. Because they're scapegoats for 9-11.

Only a scarce few support the war because they stand to profit from oil. All the rest support it because of Islamophobic bigotry.

You yourself just posted an article from a noted Islamophobe, the kind of nut who posts at World Net Daily and the like, and one with a blatantly Islamophobic title.

You want proof? That's like Ahmadinejad asking for proof of the holocaust.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oh, for shit's sake...
You make a claim you CAN NOT back up and then attempt to turn it around. Hello...there is actual evidence the holocaust happened. Where is the proof that 120,000 gays were slaughtered? You made the claim...no one else did. Provide a source that says '120,000 gays were murdered in Iraq'.

Genocide is the intentional murder of a group based on race, religion and so on. That's the basic gist of it and people posted more than one source explaining why that term does not fit in this instance. Hundreds of thousands have died...no one is disputing that although I have yet to see statistics saying 120,000 gays have died in Iraq. It's the term 'genocide' that many do not feel apply.

This is a very lame attempt to hijack a thread about a group of people being targeted by a government with real evidence to back it up.

I do thank you, though, for continuing to kick this thread so more people will read it. :)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. No, they were shot and bombed for having the temerity to live on top of a lot of oil n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
52. Very few people are profiting from the oil.
Which is why they had to inflame Islamophobic hatred in order to gain support for the war.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. Frotpage Mag? Robert Spencer?
Is this a joke?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Ugh. I didn't notice this was from Frontpage.
I wish people wouldn't post anything from that rightwing reactionary piece of crap. Even if they're accurate, they're using tragedy for their own sick agenda.

And Robert Spencer is the worst of the worst of the worst.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I'm sorry about that, cali...
and to everyone else...

I saw the headline on digg and it jumped out at me. I read the article and didn't check out the rest of the site beforehand.

I have no affection for any religion and this article is more evidence to show how damaging it is to humanity as a whole.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's nice to see that even the wingnuts at "frontpagemag"
find Iran's treatment of gays dispicable. Of course it happens to help them in their demonization of Iran since I am sure David Horowitz and his boys are all for invading. Too bad the frontpagemag assholes weren't as concerned about how their fellow Judeo-christian" neocons treat gays. They may not be hanging us yet but I am sure they would if they could get away with it.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. So many problems with this article, so little time
First off: "Islamic Bigotry" seems to be a broad brush attack. Not all Muslims are crazy homophobes. I personally know Muslims who favor full equality for gays. Where does this article acknowledge people such as that?

Secondly: "Is illegal also in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, the United Arab Emirates, and Uzbekistan,..."
He forgot to add "And recently, Texas", wonder why? Oh yes, because it's not a Muslim country. Muslims aren't the only homophobes out there.

Third: Consider the source, an Islamophobic 'researcher' who writes for a right wing propaganda outlet.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I didn't know about the RW leanings of the writer until it was brought to my attention...
The headline at digg jumped out at me and after reading I thought it might be a worthwhile article for DU. I am sorry about this.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. You might be interested in this piece from NPR today
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14895672

Talks about the Western style concept of gays in Muslim world -- it's very complex -- more than one from the west would imagine.

I posted on it earlier. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1959763&mesg_id=1959763

"Jihad for Love " - "Homosexuality in the Muslim World" being discussed now on NPR
Posted by Emit on Tue Oct-02-07 06:11 PM

Homosexuality in the Muslim World


Talk of the Nation, October 2, 2007 · In an address to an audience at Columbia University last week, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stated that homosexuality does not exist in Iran. Parvez Sharma, the filmmaker behind the documentary A Jihad for Love, discusses the underground world of homosexuality in Muslim countries.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14895672


A Jihad for Love
The story of Islam is told by its most unlikely storytellers...

Filmed in twelve different countries and in nine languages, A Jihad for Love is the first-ever feature-length documentary to explore the complex global intersections of Islam and homosexuality. With unprecedented access and depth, the film brings to light the hidden lives of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Muslims and goes where the silence has been loudest, to countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Egypt and Bangladesh, as well as to Turkey, France, India, South Africa, the United States and the United Kingdom.


http://hartleyfoundation.org/jihad-for-love
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
25. They were 16 and 18 years of age.
But I have to give props to the propagandists at Frontpage for at least acknowledging that the two were convicted of raping a 13 year old, not consensual sexual activity.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. A fact which I have NEVER seen mentioned elsewhere, by the way. n/t
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I can't stand this anymore.
Not only is it obvious that just a small minority of DUers actually read the FrontPage column, but it appears too many people are all too willing to buy into every half-assed thing they hear.

Here's another op/ed posted today -- I wonder how many people will actually click the link and read it?

Pertaining to the "rape" charge:

- - -
In an internationally publicized case not long after Ahmadinejad won election as president in 2005, two male Iranian teenagers, 17 and 18, were hanged after being originally convicted of homosexuality. After condemnation poured in from around the world, Iran’s government issued a report claiming the sentence was punishment for the rape of a 13-year-old boy.

But as Canada witnessed after the beating death of Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi in 2003 by Iranian security officials in Tehran, in Iran the "truth" is whatever those in power say it is. Kazemi, who was arrested for taking pictures of a student protest, was first claimed to have suffered a stroke, then Iranian officials admitted she had been beaten, then later – after a show trial of a minor official ended without a conviction – a new story, that Kazemi had been on a hunger strike and fainted, striking her head, was concocted.
- - -
Much more worth reading:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/922441.html


How can anyone believe the "official" story on Ayaz Marhoni and Mahmoud Asgari (they did have names, you know) as the Iranian government tells it? Especially after Iran's frontman just finished telling you that there are no homosexuals in Iran?

How can anyone be willing to accept any old tripe from FrontPage, and ignore this?

And, for the record, if anyone but the precious few who recognized the FP link for what it is had read the FP column, they would have seen the last two paragraphs not quoted in the OP:

- - -
In light of all this, the silence of campus gay rights groups and the so-called “progressive” Left generally about the global efforts by Islamic jihadists to impose Islamic Sharia law is appallingly short-sighted. While they attack Christians, who are not calling for gays to be imprisoned or killed under any circumstances, they say nothing about a genuine threat to their survival. While they attack Israel, a gay-friendly country, they are silent about the murder of gays in Islamic Iran.

The late columnist Cathy Seipp recounted a telling incident in March 2006, when a friend of hers went into San Francisco’s City Lights bookstore and asked for a copy of the late and much-missed Oriana Fallaci’s The Force of Reason. “We don’t carry books by fascists,” sniffed the clerk, prompting Seipp to muse: “Strangest of all is the scenario of such a person disliking an author for defending Western civilization against radical Islam -- when one of the first things those poor, persecuted Islamists would do, if they ever (Allah forbid) came to power in the U.S., is crush suspected homosexuals like him beneath walls.”
- - -

Was this not a massive, blinding clue to the real agenda behind the FP op/ed?

Oh, sure, plenty of progressives have remained "silent about the murder of gays in Islamic Iran" for fear of being accused of warmongering -- but just LOOK at the bait-and-switch bullshit implying that the Left "attacks" Israel because the Left loves "radical Islam." So Israel's government is off-limits to criticism, of anything, because Israel grants its gay and lesbian citizens a modicum of equality? :eyes:

Just LOOK at the same old RW song and dance about how the Left "attacks" Christians, who, golly-gee-whiz, aren't even calling for the execution of gays. So I guess it's just plain wrong to criticize RW evangelicals who work night and day to stop us from keeping our jobs, our homes, and our children, and prevent us from getting married -- 'cause, hey, it's not like they're hanging us, or stoning us in the streets, right? :sarcasm:

My God, is there no sense of discrimination or judgment in what we read anymore? Do people ever click links to quoted articles? Or is everyone too terrified of being accused of beating the drums of war against Iran, and/or being anti-Islam? Is that what it is? Or are people just too lazy to do their own homework? Or are people too scared to form their own, independent opinions before sticking a finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing?

I shouldn't have to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway: I DON'T WANT WAR WITH IRAN. But I'll be damned if I pretend that Iran does not systematically slaughter its gay citizens (its lesbians, too, on the fourth "offense"; the first three offenses result merely in 100 lashes -- and that's something I knew long before I read the Chronicle Herald piece).
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. And I can't it stand anymore you putting things in perspective.
Edited on Wed Oct-03-07 12:49 AM by JackBeck
How dare you have the collective memory to know certain Right Wing agendas and be able to have the intellectual capacity to deconstruct these views in order to put them in the correct historical context.

:evilgrin:
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. Notice the crickets are the only ones responding?
Oh, how surprising. :sarcasm:
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
59. Well said and
thanks for the perspective.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
66. Bravo! Well done!
:toast: :yourock:
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-02-07 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. A note about the source, frontpage. It's got an agenda, at times racist,
and at times just plain unreliable internet hoopla - snagging a factual story to conflate it with a biased POV. In this case, it's the treatment of gays in Iran.

There's a deadly truth to that. Yet, frontpage presents the issue as one of Islam, as a whole, not how it is practiced by an extremist power structure. There's a difference.

Just a heads up.

(personal aside) frontpage does us gays little good in peddling this hyperbole. The truth is enough. Series!
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
31. What that means is that secularism hasn't yet become the counterweight--
--to Islamic bigotry to the extent that it has become the counterweight against Christian bigotry. It's 700 years younger as a religious tradition, so this should be no huge surprise. Secularism has moved Christianity toward more tolerance, and it might yet do the same in Islam. Of course, overthrowing the secular democratic government of Iran in 1954 probably set that tendency back at least a century.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
32. All this article makes me want to do
is fight harder against the people here trying to bring religion into our government.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
35. Just one of the reasons why the current
form of Islam in those countries needs to be challenged on it's very fundamentals.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. How many are dead, or injured in Gay-bashing incidents in the West over the same period?
Edited on Wed Oct-03-07 09:28 AM by JCMach1
Because Sharia is usual implements locally, that would be the more telling figure to compare...


Nearly one-in-five students reported they had been physically assaulted because of their sexual orientation and over a tenth because of their gender expression... http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/04/042606schools.htm

...ommunity United Against Violence, a San Francisco anti-violence advocacy group, released nationwide statistics yesterday showing attacks against gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender men and women were on the upswing. Most go unreported, and many are mishandled by police, CUAV said.

Some of the group's findings:

-- Nationwide, 2,475 people were victimized by anti-gay violence, up 10 percent from 2,249 in 1999.

-- Attacks resulting in serious injury throughout the country were down 41 percent, from 363 in 1999 to 215 last year, while assaults in general rose 60 percent from 90 to 145.

-- One in six attacks nationwide were against transgender people.

-- Of the 415 incidents reported in Northern California, 271 occurred in San Francisco, while 144 were scattered across Northern California.

-- U.S. murders motivated by anti-gay hate were down 43 percent, from 28 in 1999 to 16 in 2000.

-- San Mateo County accounted for most incidents outside San Francisco -- with 11, followed by 10 in Alameda County, seven in Contra Costa County and five in Stanislaus County.

The group gathered its data from victim reports given to 26 anti-violence nonprofit organizations across the country. ... http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/04/13/MN221466.DTL



That does make what local courts in these countries right by any means. It's just that local religious law is the means of oppression in these countries. We should note that America does little better with this issue!
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Why is it when
when a legitimate criticism of Islam is made, people feel the need to it this about another issue. Had this been a discussion about gay people in America I would have said the same thing. At least here we have a voice and there have been tremendous strides in this country, whereas they are still very far behind.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Why is it that Islam is the key factor here-- Hate Crimes are
I don't see the same kind of theory being applied to fundamentalist Christian theology vis a vis this issue...

It is only in the context of a group that is already being demonized in our society that the issue is being framed as a religious one.


Sorry, but it is a human rights issue.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I agree with you, and that's the problem with this particular source.
The attempt to make bigotry a problem of only Muslim cultures is pathetic. The right-wing Christians in the United States feel exactly the same way, and if they had their way, our government would execute gay people.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Key words "if they had their way"
Edited on Wed Oct-03-07 01:17 PM by BoneDaddy
We don't execute gays. They do. We have a strong moderate and liberal populace that wouldn't allow it, they do not have the same opposition to fundamentalism that we have here.

Stop trying to say that the US and the Islamic countries views, practices and persecution of homsexuals is the same. They are not.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I don't know if the differences in our population are that great.
Things could slide out of control here in the U.S. very quickly, I think.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I know that is a fear
but to say it is true is irrational. I can only speak to what IS happening and I don't know, personally, a single republican friend or family member who would advocate "executing" gay people. They may not like it, they may not "approve" of it, they may not support gay marriage, but I have NEVER heard anything resembling killing homosexuals, EVER, from them.

Does that mean that there are not people who think that? no. There are, however, plenty of people in the middle east who believe death is the answer and this is the supported belief by a large majority.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. LOL
because it was a discussion about Islam and homophobia. Had it been a discussion of Christian fundamentalism and homophobia I would have said something similar. Perhaps fundamentalist Islam should be criticized for it's irrationality and flawed basic arguments about life.

It may be a human rights issue but it is possible to discuss the issue as it pertains to different cultures, countries, without having to make it a global issue to deflect from the fact that homosexuality is treated by the populace of Islam in a much more virulent fashion than in America and the west. Of course there is still homophobia in the west but it is no where near as rabid as it is in Islam.

I never understood other liberals on this topic of who has the worst fundamentalism. Clearly the power structures of those Islamic countries have NO tolerance for homosexuality, whereas in the West there are much more moderate and liberal views.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. There is actually tolerance here that's the point
definitely not sayings it's greater than the US just different... Gay bashing also tends to be different...

Sexuality of all kinds is consigned to the private sphere here... So, any identity based on that is going to be viewed as a challenge to the social order.

Whatever happens behind closed doors stays there.

Meanwhile, in public, it is perfectly acceptable to have close non-sexual friendships and emotional bonds of the same-sex. Handholding, for example, is very common between the same sex.

The local Sharia courts who commit these attrocities are reacting to a perceived social threat. NO ONE is allowed a public sexual identity! That's where things come into conflict.

Think of the Muslim world as the world's biggest closet!
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Hehe..."the world's biggest closet"
I like the phrase. I am sure that the phenomena is different every where we go. My main point was that a criticism of the homophobia in the Middle East does not mean that I am ignorant of the Western homophobia. Just get tired of hearing the very irrational arguments of those trying to deflect from the issue. No worries )
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. The author of the article in the OP's quite a bigot.
A well known Islamophobe, giving us such gems as "Religion of Peace: Why Christianity is and Islam isn't."
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. I think you might be interested in reading this guy
He offers some interesting insight into the homosexual movement in Muslim countries.

Ahmadinejad and the Homosexuality He Seeks to Deny
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1967837&mesg_id=1967837


~snip~
As I have filmed A Jihad for Love, I have struggled to explain the difficulties of language to many, including the mostly American production team I have worked with in New York. Iranian culture resembles India's, where I grew up, in many ways; Persian was in fact the language of the Mughal courts only a few hundred years ago. As I have taken my camera to many parts of the many different worlds of Islam, I have only been able to confirm what I always knew. The terminologies of "liberation theology" or even identity constructs, social or political, like "gay," "lesbian," "bisexual," "transgender," "intersex," "queer," etc., that seem to inform so much of the endless debates in the air-conditioned corridors of Western academia or the endless conferences organized by diasporic Muslims and their friends, are of little if any consequence on the streets of Delhi, Lahore, Dhaka, Cairo, Shiraz, or Jeddah. Homosexuality has not only been tolerated but sometimes even openly celebrated in Islamic societies for more than 1,400 years. This is not the kind of homosexual persona that we adopt in the West. A language of affirmation is woefully absent. Marriage -- and let's be clear: marriage of the heterosexual kind -- is not a choice, but a societal and familial obligation. Marching down Main Street holding banners of identity politics and affirmation is certainly not a desirable outcome of any so-called "liberation." Invisibility is the identity often preferred by the majority and I have examined that very "jihad" by taking my camera into that world of "invisibility." This film took six years to make for a reason. The fact that the lives of diasporic Muslims are absent from my film was a clear but difficult choice. And indeed that would be a different, equally worthy project.

What is critical, however, is that we as Muslims not allow the mediators in the Western media and, indeed, our Islamic extremist brothers -- certainly a minority in my opinion -- to define our Islams for us. I usually shun the simplifications of terms like "terrorist" and "fundamentalist." For me, the violent minority that claims to speak for my religion does not adhere to the fundamentals of my faith. The ridicule that the elected president of a nation of more than 70 million, branded a "cruel and petty dictator," has been subjected to by the smallest minority of arrogant opinion makers is appalling. Clearly the war drums are beating again and in the sadly black-and-white American mindscape of today, this nation's overextended troops continue the ill-informed crusades of their leaders. These are troubling times, yet for artists, as in all times of dissent and repression, the atmosphere is rich and full of possibility. My struggle, my jihad as I define it for myself, keeping all Qur'anic tenets in mind, grows stronger. That jihad is to continue to avoid the easy trap of being an apologist for my faith, and to also rightfully criticize what I know is deeply wrong within it. We Muslims are members of the world's fastest growing religion, indeed the second largest. Many of us have been misunderstood and unheard for too long, and many of us will need to wage critical jihads within ourselves and our own communities to decide who will speak for all of our different Islams.

~snip~


In the NPR interview yesterday, the author of the piece above, Sharma, talks about how "many of the laws that Muslim states inherit are laws that came through colonialization -- through colonial powers where laws condemn homosexuality as an unnatural offense were written down by the British and French."

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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #37
60. They always change the subject to something else...
when one has a critism of islam. It's always but Jews this, but Christians that,but Atheists this,but Clinton that. There can never be critisms of islam without critizing other religions and Clinton too. It just can't happen.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Really?
I can't speak for all states but I can surely speak for mine and for other states in New England. Comparing us to countries with Sharia is patently absurd. Every state but RI has civil union laws. In Vermont it against the law to discriminate against gays and lesbians. Civil Unions have been in place for almost 8 years; we're now trying to institute marriage. Gays and lesbians have long been able to adopt and take in foster kids.

What a spurious comparison.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. it is absolutely fair as the discussion is about violence
Violence that is one place in the Muslim world is shifted to another in the States and the West...

You are just as dead whether an Imam kills you, or a drunken redneck.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. I couldn't disagree more.
OK, you're just as dead, but the attitude of the society towards any given population is of great importance. And codified, legal violence towards gays is a whole different ball of wax. Besides, I completely doubt that the level of violence towards gays in this country is at par with that in countries where homosexuality is punishable by death.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. The level of violence is similar... and that's the point
these are typically local laws being upheld in local courts where there is significant ignorance and prejudice. What does that sound similar to?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. Put up or shut up.
It's just a bullshit comparison- and it would be even if the levels of violence were similar. Not that you've provided even the tiniest shred of evidence. Not even an ort's worth. Name one local law in the U.S. that treats homosexuality as a crime. You can't. As for violence against gays being similar here as to countries that treat homosexuality as a capitol crime, what a load of bull.

You should be embarassed.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. If you want to get to the source: Homan is an Iranian 'exile' group... sound familiar?
Edited on Thu Oct-04-07 10:31 AM by JCMach1
Same type of bullshit agit prop the CIA whipped-out before both wars in Iraq...



Please don't misread my intent here... people have been killed in Iran for being gay, lesbian, or transgendered... However, we should be a little smarter about our information sources.


Or, don't you remember the babies thrown from incubators...? and, the rape rooms... don't forget those?


4000? Very questionable... It's very hard to do such precise statistical research on Iran from Los Angeles (home of Homan).
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. Thank you
common sense prevail. I get really tired of the "you can't criticize Islam, cause the US is so much worse" total bullshit on these boards.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #42
61. THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING SENSE!!!
The comparison is ridiculous - why can't people understand the difference between a redneck asshole and state sponsored violence against gays? If governments inplementing Sharia laws don't outright kill gays, they lash them 100 times (for women). Nothing in the US begins to compare and to suggest it does is downright dishonest.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. The relevant comparison would be western culture 700 years ago
Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. LOL it's not even close to that in most places...
It's a complex situation over here as the society is changing at light speed.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
38. And if the American Taliban got their way, we'd emulate Iran.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I believe that is true.
Bigotry against queer people is pervasive in all authoritarian cultures.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
62. I think that's bullshit
You have absolutely no evidence of that being true.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
63. Is there anything particularly Islamic about this bigotry?
Aren't there as many nominal Christians who would gladly commit similar genocide if they could escape punishment? The law may call itself Islamic, but the hate--that's universal.
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FuJun Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
65. Regardless of the Source...
Islam is a bankrupt ideology which needs to go the way of the dinosaurs (as does Judaism and Christianity).
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