Are Christian Zionists a threat to National Security?

Under the cloak of religion, delusional Christians are advocating unilateral attacks on sovereign states.

Has the foreign policy of the United States be hijacked by total nut jobs who want to hasten Armageddon and the Rapture?
Is the US military already subverted as a tool of an insane metaphysical world view that seeks to hasten the end times?

Watch this Bill Moyer show and decide for yourself.

Hagee:Strike Iran 'for Israel' on Moyers - part 1 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaXs8MdmXWY

Hagee:Strike Iran 'for Israel' on Moyers - part 2 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLFCQTO-a0&mode=related&search=

Hagee:Strike Iran 'for Israel' on Moyers - part 3 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQRiAnYj4gY&mode=related&search=

Hagee:Strike Iran 'for Israel' on Moyers - part 4 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h3xG-kQaQI&mode=related&search=

Hagee:Strike Iran 'for Israel' on Moyers - part 5 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWaZgllv6HE&mode=related&search=

MKJ

Anyone looking forward to the end of the world is a threat to everyone else in my book.

They should be monitored like other hate groups.

Because Zionism as a concept was not a good idea post-U.N. charter, nor good from a U.S. geo-political standpoint nor good for Jewish genetic survival post Trinity.

A Definition of Zionism
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Birnbaum.html

In 1890, Birnbaum coined the terms “Zionist” and “Zionism,” and, in 1892, “Political Zionism.” In 1893, he published a brochure entitled Die Nationale Wiedergeburt des Juedischen Volkes in seinem Lande als Mittel zur Loesung der Judenfrage (“The National Rebirth of the Jewish People in its Homeland as a Means of Solving the Jewish Question”), in which he expounded ideas similar to those that Herzl was to promote subsequently.

Birnbaum played a prominent part in the First Zionist Congress (1897) and was elected Secretary General of the Zionist Organization. However, he and Herzl developed ideological differences. Birnbaum had begun to question the political aims of Zionism and to attach increasing importance to the national-cultural content of Judaism.

Birnbaum eventually left the Zionist movement and later became a leading spokesman for Jewish cultural autonomy in the Diaspora. He stressed the Yiddish language as the basis of Ashkenazi Jewish culture and was chief convenor of the Conference on Yiddish held in Czernowitz, Bukovina, in 1908. This was attended by leading Yiddish writers, and proclaimed Yiddish as a national Jewish language. Birnbaum propagated his ideas in writing and by lecturing in many Jewish communities.

................

Like, God wants a certain type of people to live in what is now Israel? Well first of all, I don't even know if there is a God but if there is I don't think he would approve of these RW zealots in Israel, the US or any of the Islamic theocracies either for that matter.

If there IS a God, I don't think there is one type of people "chosen" for to live anywhere....kind of like saying, well these other people, God doesn't want here. I understand our country was founded on "God wants us to have THIS AND THIS AND THAT TOO!" However, in the modern world hopefully we can see this for what it is.

their religious beliefs happened to be.

Israel is what it is. And one thing it has always been intended as is a place where Jews know they can go because other places where they thought they were safe turned out, not to be so. That is not a premise grounded in right-wing religious beliefs, as a matter of fact most of the folks who did the lions' share of work building the State of Israel were socialists with very little religious fervor at all. What they were most committed to was having a place where they wouldn't wake up one morning with brownshirts breaking their shop windows and dragging their families off to rail cars. That is where "Israel" came from. And whether or not you agree with that or even understand it, it's not going away.

I would say that it's one thing to disagree with the policies and practices of the government of Israel- like the occupation since the '67 war- and it's something else entirely to have issues with the premise upon which the nation of Israel was founded and exists.

People do have strong feelings about both, of course- but I think when people take issue with the existence of the State of Israel itself, they should be upfront about that fact, and not couch it in terms of "I'm only criticizing the policies of the government".

Understand?

I don't think it's worth them bombing other people in that case either, or that that solves anything. Not a believer in violence as I believe it begets violence.

I simply don't believe that there is anyplace "intended" for any one type of people - that's racist, and setting up governments with that belief, that's theocracy.

I don't want our government giving Israel (or anyone) a blank check and a pass for whatever violence they want to perpetrate, even if THEY think God wants them to do it, I think it's just making everything worse and probably between the zionists (both Xtian & Jew) & jihadists, they will probably be the end for all of us.

Truly, there's not a damn thing I can do about it because the powers that be want it this way, however, I think it's bullshit and for the time being at least I think I still have every right to think that. Understand?

Doesn't have a legitimate right to decide for themselves who they want to let immigrate into their country?

I'm not saying any opinion is "right" or "wrong", I'm just trying to get clarity. In my previous post, I was trying to explain some things about Israel, because Israel -the place, the people, the history- is a subject on which many people on the self-proclaimed "left" seem to be less than informed.

Like everyone, you're entitled to your opinion.

Frankly, I wish the people who DON'T think Israel's existence as a nation is legitimate would be more up front about it, instead of couching it in "I'm only criticizing Likud, I'm only criticizing the Israeli right wing", etc. Because then, at least, we could have an honest, rational debate.

Saying "I just want peace between Israel and the Palestinians" when "peace" is taken to equal "Israel as a nation should cease to exist" doesn't lend itself to real up front debate.

Understand?

from god. Try to imagine that a god actually exists and wants to send a signal to humans, of all species. Would he pick a bunch of hateful, right wing fundies in the USA to communicate his intentions.

HELL no, he would appear before a CEO at an ad firm! :rofl:

But since it would seem he needs to spends a considerable amount of his time overseeing the outcome of high school football games in Mississippi.. what do you expect?

No way are these nutjob doomsday prognosticators hooked up with a divinity :rofl:

Because they actually *do* have dual loyalty, according to the law, anyway, whereas your remark about Zionism is just a canard.

and lip service to another.

and I don't live in either country of my citizenships....dual lip service?

I'm also a dual citizen. I do live in my main country of citizenship (UK); but I have spent 5 days in my country of secondary citizenship (Canada) in the last 15 years.

I know many people who are citizens of two sovereign nations and they're disloyal to neither. :hi:

Should I be arrested for treason?

I am a Zionist, because I want Israel to continue to exist as a homeland for Jews in the Middle East. I also hate the Likud; support Peace Now; support an end to the Occupation, an independent Palestinian state, equal rights for Israeli Arabs and secular people within Israel; etc. There are plenty of people like me. To assume that all Zionists are right-wing Likud-supporters, is like assuming that all Muslims are terrorists or all Americans are Bush-loving warmongers.

And I am not a threat to either my country's security or yours!!!

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/profile.html
October 7, 2007

John Hagee, along with other Christian Evangelical leaders, created Christians United for Israel (CUFI) less than two years ago, yet it has already grown into one of the largest and most politically influential Christian grassroots organizations in the country.

..........

Hagee often alludes to Nazi Germany in order to underline what he believes to be the gravity of the situation:

"Ladies and gentlemen, we are reliving history. It is 1938 all over again," Hagee explains in a 2007 speech. "Iran is Germany. Ahmadinejad is Hitler. And Ahmadinejad, just like Hitler, is talking about killing the Jews."

Theology of Christian Zionism

Increasingly, some American evangelical Christians have emerged to form an alliance with Israel. Citing Biblical prophecy, this group of evangelicals call for all of the West Bank to remain in Israeli hands, and they oppose any two-state solution. Sometimes called Christian Zionists, they believe that a Christian Messiah will return to earth in Jerusalem. They have joined with conservative Israeli politicians to oppose any division of the city.

.........

Israelis behind their backs. Fundies believe that all Jews are going to hell. Period. Unless they get "saved" at the last minute before Jesus comes.

And both sides are willing to play chicken with the rest of the world to fulfill their own fucked up apocalyptic prophesies.

Sick idiots want to kill the rest of us in the process.

I think alot of the fundies think they will be able to show the Israelis the way and save them.
The Israelis probably think these guys are loonies but what the hell,
they've got lots of money and weapons and are willing to send Americans to die
so Israelis dont have to.

After they check to see if you have horns, the next question will probably be "which tribe do you belong to"...as its Jews who are the fundies "ticket to Armegeddon"...without Israel and the Jews leading the way, there won't be the "second comming". They have no desire in "conversion" as much as seeing this as self-fulfilling prophesy.

I agree, most Jews look at the fundies as screwballs who provide political cover here...and Israelis love those tours these people put together (Tourism is a large industry in Israel) but few, if any, need or want to be "saved" by them. If anything, they probably think the other way around.

That doesn't gel with my experience, at all.

The Israelis I know love Bill Clinton. They don't "get" George Bush. They don't like their religious kooks, I'm sure they have next to no use for ours. They think the Settlers are assholes. They don't want war, they'd like peace with their neighbors- but not if peace means "You Go Away Now".

In short, the people in Israel have a broad political spectrum, just as we do here- if anything, they're further to the left than the average American. They're doing some of the world's most cutting edge stem cell research there because our fundies have stopped it here.

who are willing to accept the political "help" of the fundie wacko ultra right wingers in this country.

Those are the people mentioned in the OP and those are the people we're talking about in this thread, not the sane enlightened liberal folks like Rabbi Michael Lerner who was featured on Bill Moyers' program. I was responding to a post and did not qualify my answer. I didn't think I needed to actually. It should be understood that we're talking about right wingers on both sides here.

:thumbsup:

The Israeli and American neocons and the Christian Zionist wackos both think they are using each other, but they could end up blowing up the world playing those games. Sure, the Israeli neocons laugh at the fundies who believe most Jews are going to hell, except for the ones who convert. What they don't understand is the extent of the millennialist wacko infiltration of our military during the Bush years, and just how dangerous that is for everyone.

And I'm sick to fucking death of stupid threads like this!

to dance on the graves of the dumb-dumbs who believe in the end times.
Whats gonna happen when they find out there is no heaven?
oh.....nevermind.

If they somehow jumpstart the conditions for Armageddon, God is supposed to get off his divine ass and look at the earth and say "Oh. The Fundamentalists are pushing me to start the Apocalypse. I better do what they're telling me." Not only are they religious kooks, they are so megalomaniacal that they presume to tell God when he should start the end of the world. If there were a Hell, I would hope they roast in it.

These metaphysically deluded individuals espouse preemptive attack.

Doesn't preemptive attack work both ways? Will there be a preemptive attack
against the US to prevent the preemptive attack they are promoting?

Or, is only one side insane? :rofl:

Fundamentalists take everything so literally.

and the sooner they see their folly in aligning themselves with the Israeli albatross the better.

:wtf:

Are atheists also 'traitors to a united Christendom'?

Are Christians supposed to rule the world? If I'm interpreting you correctly, this is stuff that should not appear on a liberal board.

And there hasn't been a 'united Christendom' for centuries; not since the Eastern Orthodox Church split off from the Catholics; still less since the Reformation in the 16th century. Are people of the 'wrong' Christian sects also traitors in your opinion?

That is the job of the secular arm. As to united Christendom, think of it more as an umbrella sort of organization for various Christian denominations. But they should be behind Christian causes. Obviously. I think we must take the term "Christian" back from its current narrow useage when it is taken to refer to only conservative evangelicals.

I still don't get what's with the "traitors to a united christendom". As someone who, by background at least, could be considered part of "united Jewdom", I don't fucking get it at all.

And what, precisely, would you consider "Christian causes"? Got any examples? :shrug:

I think the people who believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old and that they need to precipitate Armageddon at the expense of the Middle East INCLUDING the State of Israel so Jesus will come back are TRAITORS TO SANITY and LOGIC, frankly.

Since when has "Christendom" EVER been united? The first major rifts probably began just after Christ died.

And I'd be careful about using the word "traitor". This is a system of faith, not a global holy war.

Inquiring minds and all that.

That by putting forth these extreme messages, they are creating a false impression of what Christianity stands for.

Thus, they're at odds with the rest of the global Christian movement, which in NO WAY endorses the Zionist extremist movement as part of their doctrine.

Anyone who uses phrases like United Christendom, has some 'splainin to do.

There certainly is no "United Christiandom" given 500+ religions under that old banner. What is inexplicable is how one particular preacher can claim to know the "truth" in that myriad mess of divergence of views. I guess there are 500+ of them because, by definition, being one is believing you know the truth. Such lack of logic is quite the conundrum. ????

They call them faiths for good cause: lack of reason! :rofl:

denominations are quite large as you know. There is such a thing as the World Council of Churches also but it's not as much a unifying organization as one would like. All faiths of course demand belief in the seeming irrational. Credo quia absurdum est and all that. Incidentally the term "fascism" as used on this board seems to be a very broad term (something like "socialism" has always been).

These groups just confuse the issue.

It just knows how to USE the "delusional Christians" to expand empire (I don't think Podhoretz is counting on being raptured...). And I'm sure they laugh at them all the way to the bank. Factor in nuts like General "False God" Boykin and anyone in the military fighting The Crusades and it really is an unholy alliance. Everyone has an agenda and is using everyone else.

And let's not forget environmental destruction which is supposed to hasten the Second Coming. They completely play the delusional Christians on that issue as well.

"He who lives by the sword will die by the sword"

That Moyers Journal scared the crap out of me.

The religiously ultra-right on all sides, Christian, Muslim and Jew, are each waiting and praying for their own exclusive "Messiah." It's hard for me to imagine a Messiah, a Savior, willing (in His Holy Name - Jahweh, Jesus, Allah, or whoever) the deaths of millions of his own creation. The sooner everybody figures out that we're all in this together, the better off we'll be. We need to start taking care of each other. War is stupid.

and, of course, if there is a difference :rofl:

This is mass hysteria and a form of consensual group mental illness. But, is there a cure?

I truly do find these people's mindless following very disturbing. They have the look of the adoring Germans as Hitler was pumping them up for World War II and the "final solution to the Jewish problem." They cheered him even as millions of their sons died.

as well as security.

They certainly seem focused on political bipolar disorder :rofl: blended with atypical paranoia, and hyper-manic fund raising.

Inside joke. You had to be online earlier today.

and going to hell, or converting.




That's something, but it's intellectually dishonest to call it "Zionism". :eyes:

There seems to be some hypocrisy at work too. Check out in the video how Hagee's politics de-emphasizes the end times, but he preaches it.

This is serious, worrisome activity. Who is behind this strange marriage of politics and insanity? Whose political agenda is served?

And, frankly, neither do any of the Israelis I know. They don't like their own religious right-wing maniacs, they certainly have no use for ours. Anyone who is paying attention and bothers to read what these nutters are on about will see that the "plan" (if you can call it that) is all-out armageddon to bring Jesus back. At which point Israel and the Jews are fucked, along with the rest of us fornicators, gays, deadheads, restroom foot-tappers, users of birth control, double parkers, and the like.

Sharia, Talmudic or Christian law - they want to undo the Enlightenment.

only dreamed about by the religious right in the US.

As anti-democratic as you can get. Anyone that is not in her 'whateverthefuck' group is doomed to hell. The rapture is all that matters... she was ecstatic on 9-11 because she thought she was going to be sucked up w/in a few days.

She now spends her time editing the creation science newsletter and donating to these nasty Israelochristofascist 'causes' to the point that hubby and I have had to bail her out of debt twice.

She knows we will not do it again......... sigh - it's gonna suck when she comes asking for $$$ again.

What a relief that you did not inherit it! :rofl:

And seriously, sorry to hear your Mom got caught up in this. It reminds us that there are real human costs to these parasites sucking money from many hypnotized followers to support their million dollar a year salaries. That is yet another dimension to the insanity, and a good reason for public concern and action.

But I had to deal with the FACT that a demon lived inside me - and I had to have Penetecostalists and 4square Gospelists attempt to erradicate it.....


These people are F'ED UP!

...and this should have been recognized long before they began their organized campaign of infiltration of our military apparatus.

As someone noted "Zionism" is a little off here, since in their scenario it's the Christians who eventually win (or rather, are spirited off while the rest of the world deals with the mess they made), but they portray themselves as "pro-Israel" merely for the purpose of accomplishing their own ends.

They are not on the side of the US or Israel, and they are a definite security threat.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I'll say they have a strong bias. I won't watch the video as I only have dial-up, but that's an ugly and false phrase. Influence is different from control. This is an old canard- simply a variation of it. Not to mention that there are all flavors of zionists, including those how work for peace and justice in Palestine, and those who oppose military aid to Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hAXEr8AfT0

Protesting AIPAC (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tns3PEsiD24

Protesting AIPAC (Part 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkwbVnGMvm0

Protesting AIPAC (Part 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nClbNB-qNRA

for different reasons, but they are

but beyond being Christian Zionist, they're Pre-millenarian Dispensationalists- and the ones that aren't are still millenarian. These types have been around for 1500 years. The Hagee types are just on steroids. They need to be marginalized and exposed.

DAMM!... It lost a point to close at 154.. I was really really hoping to score some fundies H3..

I guess I have to wait another week to see if Jesus is going to return... damn damn double damn.

http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html

Consider them a Terroist threat.

Hagee:nuke: is a fat piece of shit!! I can not stand that fucker!!:grr:

Whether Christian Zionists, other Christian Righties, extremist Islamists, etc. They're all pretty much the same when it comes down to it: they put their religion ahead of humanity (and don't consider that helping humanity is part of their religion); and as such, they are very, very dangerous.

they would know we are all related. Yet, they speak of Palestine being the property of Abraham. We each have 1,099 TRILLION ancestors in the last 1,000 years, given 2, 4, 8 16, 32, 64, etc. In the last 2,000 years, that sums at 1.2 to the 24th power! So, who isn't descended from Abraham by now?

PB

They most certainly are!

Damn scary people.

are the biggest threat to our national security

next to our current military-industrial-national security apparatus

The war of Armegeddon happens in Israel. Um, the Jews must convert before Christ comes back? All the other Jews will get a special punishment?

do the jews who convert get sucked up into the sky, or are they just spared their special punishment?

I think that sums up the most important point! That $MILLION$ salary has to come from somewhere.

Would Hagee bet his salary and assets on the Rapture?

Neither did Falwell nor do a host of other "Fat Fundies"

Timothy McVeigh types, Abortion bombings, Bush etc.