HR106 PASSES through House Committee 27 yea- 21 nay

Armenian Genocide resolution, those who voted against this should be ashamed of themselves.

We know who you are, even some Democrats! Wexler D-FL of all people, voted NO.

I guess next step is to the House?

and then move on.

You can't be fucking serious, are you? :shrug:

let's just piss them off just for spite.

Do you think they ask for it back? he might have spent it all on White Castles and donuts already

at this point I have no idea what georgie has up his sleeve but I bet he'll veto that bill

That will make the Greeks happy. Then the Mongolians
can apologize for the massacre at Kiev. Then the Iranians
can apologize for the massacre of the Spartans at Thermoploae
which will make the Greeks happy again.

And then there's the Irish who need apologies from the British
for the massacres during the Irish Rebellion of 1641, Irish
Rebellion of 1798, the 1916 Easter Rising and the 'Troubles'
during the seventies

.....and on and on and on without end.

Buddha said, "the past is not real" By this he meant enlightenment
was impossible unless the Karmic cycle of historical memory and
tribal hatred is broken forever.

did you forget your sarcasm smilie? I can't figure out if you are mocking those of us who support this rez or what?

Care to elaborate? :shrug:

I'm sorry maybe you've missed some of my posts


I'm just stating the fact that, I believe neither the congress or bush will ever let this happen, Clinton even stop it. I would like to see this past and also a res of the Iraqi, Congolese, Native American, Rawandians, Irish, Hmong genocide but that won't happen either

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/seemslikeadream/205

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x204602

What was once our country is no more - Where are the Americans now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZUQI1yTPeI

http://us10.pixagogo.com/S5zbTG1dgOCeCFGwDXVKYFnjhE!E5NzwRoQ8gZfrYlB0Hc7R4X90AuvOo6OxIW5HkHCnv5SP8xv1QxbCO65VUtM3GK!odnswADJl00ZzRA2vFE0biNImXgBQ__/Little_Admiral.jpg

Reaching the Mekong River, the border between Laos and Thailand, was very difficult. After coming close many never reached the river. Those that had made it across tell stories of seeing babies trying to nurse on rotting corpses not knowing that their mother is already dead.


I can remember, it was very, very clear, one of those things that I will never forget. It will be with me to the grave. We passed about four or five people before we got to the main group and they were crying and completely inconsolable. But that didn't prepare us for what we saw. The strangest thing is there were no jungle sounds at all, no birds nothing, no sound. There was a silence that you associate with impending doom. There were old people, fifty, sixty, seventy years old and their faces were wet with tears. I'm sorry... (Blenkinsop pauses here). It just seemed to go on and on.

They were saying, "how you could have left us here for so long? How you could you abandon us to live like animals, we are not dogs and we are forced to live like dogs?"

One guy described a scene of coming back into an area where they'd been attacked and seeing the severed heads of children on sticks. People are summarily executed. I spoke to a man who said "Bhun Si" is his name. He is in his his forties and he's got terrible terrible wounds. He was wounded in 1991 from a rocket attack and he has got a wound in his thigh that still needs to be treated. He has lost his left eye, his eyes, the left side of his face is molten and he has never seen a doctor or a nurse.



100 days - 800,000 Rwandans murdered

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b6-gqJok94



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIWeRS7j8ZU&mode=related&search=



Native Americans 12 million - Four centuries later 237 thousand



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gQcoOSKx7M

"By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2EyPWqXpVg


5.16 million Irish men, women and children; making it the Irish Holocaust



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9c4lLnY0rA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMJ0t-DyA84



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfuo_BioPi8



Taking into account all the victims of Nazi persecution, the death toll rises considerably; estimates generally place the total number of victims at nine to 11 million.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4ByWZcwjp4




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gNXfrMR_Lw

my kids are of Armenian heritage. I appreciate your time and effort to enlighten us about the other genocides. :hug:

You know, the one that lets us bomb the Iranian Revolutionary Guard...

Compared to that one the votes on this one are minor. This is a WWI atrocity - and although an atrocity, it has very little bearing on our lives. All it will do is piss off Turkey.

Ok...flame away

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

The Armenians who died in World War I, a time when NONE OF US WERE ALIVE would still be dead.

Right now, Turkey is not slaughtering, nor is it planning on slaughtering, any ethnic Armenians.

This is a non issue.

:hi:

That's how debate works, my friend. Name calling only works when discussing sports.

Your comment FLAME AWAY speaks volumes to me.

This is how arguments work. You may have heard of arguments somewhere. Little hint: what passes for arguments on shows like Springer and Maury isn't real arguing. It's just yelling and throwing chairs.

Now if you can take your dick out of your sister's mouth for a second and actually read the words I am writing you might learn something. Learning - it's a great concept. It starts by listening and not by talking, yelling or throwing feces.

Anyway, if you're still reading this you have amazed me with your patience. Most surely you're a higher evolved Muridae in the world today. I commend you!

OK at this point, you state your opinion. Remember this is only your opinion. It is not objective truth. I counter with something different, and then you read what I wrote (this is important for step two) and then look for faults within my logic. In your counter you should include this, and perhaps another point.

OK, you can go back to your incest. Have fun!

Non issue, indeed. Why are you here? And I mean the planet, not DU.

I don't think we've done anything for institutionalizing slavery, killing this countries' original inhabitants - or killing Iraqi's steadily since 1991.

Oh, there's also the slaughter of the Boers the English did. That's where the term 'concentration camp' came from. Have we denounced that yet?

My question is why this, why now?

The Turks only need acknowledge it, and we can move on. We cannot afford NOT to acknowledge it. Here's a Hitler quote; you can Google Hitler Armenians and see what you come up with.

Again in 1939 Adolf Hitler, on his way toward the "final solution" for the Jewish people, made this statement of his plans in Poland:

I have placed my death-head formations in readiness - for the present only in the East - with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion , men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

just for speaking out about the Genocide

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Turkish-Armenian_journalist_killed_in_Turkey

...on the other hand - genocide is genocide - no matter how long ago it was committed. Who knows, maybe there is hope and 90 years from now there will pass a resolution about the American Warcrimes committed against the Victims of the Bush regime..........

All of these were (are) far worse.

Yet I don't see any resolutions being brought up to even END our current one...

Us condemning genocide is the pot calling the kettle black, totally.

Should we just turn our backs and keep things on ignore?

:eyes:

why now?

You feel very strongly about this, for some reason.

So do I.

But I tire of this dance, and others have taken up the argument. So I leave it to them. But I do hope you will inform us as to why you feel so strongly about this, other than to chalk it up to politics.

no one can reasonably expect Turkey to suddenly acknoledge the genocide now that a foreign government has passed a resolution condemning it.

so what's the motivation of Congress to do so now? there is merit to the argument that "it's the right thing to do", but do you really believe that Congress does things simply because they're the right thing to do?

someone's been pushing this particular resolution for quite a while. i find it very interesting, and more than a little suspect, that it's been introduced to the floor by both Democratic and Repuke leadership, and that both Democratic (Clinton) and Repuke (Chimpy) presidents have tried to squash it. Clinton actually suceeded in getting it pulled from the floor in 2000.

This has been a political issue for at least 7 years.

It's NOT pure politics for me or others. You obviously are unable to acknowledge that others feel that this is a moral issue.

I hold your cynicism in utter contempt. How very sad.

when Turkey crosses the border and kicks the shit out of them.

And we haven't even denounced our own genocides (against slaves and original inhabitants)

So why is this one so important?

...if we rejected a call to denounce genocide, wouldn't you worry that maybe we had some more of our own genocidal plans brewing and therefore didn't want to give the practice a bad name?

Edited to add: I do fully agree that we have much more current problems and most of those are of our own making.

And we have been since 91.

The sanctions, bombing of the no-fly zone, etc... Thousands of Iraqis have died since Desert Storm, yet Americans don't know about this.

Given a choice between this measure and one that would stop the current war ... well, that's just too obvious for words.

But as long as there was a vote on this, I'm glad it didn't go the other way.

when we're still ninety years behind the times in acknowledging the Armenian holocaust?

We stopped the European Jewish Genocide (thankfully)

But promoted and conducted one against Africans and Native Peoples.

These are just words...now if the resolution ended with "in honor of the Armenian Genocide, we will NEVER DO THIS AGAIN OURSELVES"

and Hastert did.

Where've I heard that before?

Why not just pass the thing?

who is itching to cross the northern border and fight the Kurds in Iraq. why on earth we want to antagonize them right now is beyond me.

The bill is just a meaningless comment, it doesn't stand for anything.

and

The bill is so meaningful it's going to piss off the Turks and their going to kill our troops! Deny the armenian holocaust and support the troops! Clinton did it too!

Let me ask you. Have you got a good reason why the bill shouldn't pass? I mean one that makes sense?

the idea that somehow this resolution will cause Turkey to suddenly acknowledge the genocide is absurd, and this bill is completely meaningless in that respect.

it has tremendous meaning in terms of US/Turkish relations. Why on earth are we trying to piss off Turkey now?

My reason for not passing it is that Turkey is itching for a fight in northern Iraq against the Kurds. Why give them a reason (even a bad one, which "the Americans recognize the Armenian genocide" certainly is)?

Again with the "deny the Armenian holocaust" chant. are you claiming that the US denied the Armenian genocide for 90 years by not officially recognizing it? can you point to one post in DU where someone denied that the Armenian genocide took place?

"are you claiming that the US denied the Armenian genocide for 90 years by not officially recognizing it?"

I'm claiming that a "no" vote or a veto would be the moral and intellectual equivalent of holocaust denial.

like this one:

"(Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip) Erdogan adviser Bagis said the resolution would make it hard for his government to continue close cooperation with the United States and resist calls from the public to go after the Kurdish rebels after deadly attacks on soldiers in recent weeks. Turkey previously has said it would prefer that the United States and its Iraqi Kurd allies in northern Iraq crack down on the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21221278/

They are looking for a reason to invade Iraq and kill Kurds. Why are we giving them that reason? Should we be outraged at genocide, whenever and wherever it occurs? OF COURSE WE SHOULD. Should we call mass murder what it is? OF COURSE WE SHOULD. Does that mean we should do so in an incredibly stupid way, one that is extremely likely to result in more death?

Edited because i forgot the link the first time.

I've yet to hear a good one.

MrCoffee has an agenda. You are wasting your time with him, but you have an ally here.

oppose a Turkish invasion of northern Iraq to kill Kurds.


your agenda seems to be the opposite. but then, you have a pretty clear anti-Turk agenda of your own, so maybe you'd like nothing more than to see Turkey invade Iraq.

"oppose a Turkish invasion of northern Iraq to kill Kurds"

Acknowledging the armenian holocaust is going to cause the Turks to invade Iraq? Please. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

Try again.

I'll repost it for you here"

"{Turkish Prime Minister)Erdogan adviser Bagis said the resolution would make it hard for his government to continue close cooperation with the United States and resist calls from the public to go after the Kurdish rebels after deadly attacks on soldiers in recent weeks. Turkey previously has said it would prefer that the United States and its Iraqi Kurd allies in northern Iraq crack down on the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21221278/

Turkey is massing troops on the border of Iraq. There have been airstrikes against Kurdish refugee camps. They are looking for a reason to move into northern Iraq and strike them.

This is their reason. It's not a good reason, it's not even a legitimate reason, in fact, it's a fabricated reason, but since when does that stop anyone from invading Iraq?

I think it's wildly irresponsible for Congress to pass this resolution at this time. I don't think it's "holocaust denial", or anti-Armenian sentiment, or Hitler-like to oppose this resolution.


Find me a post where i, or anyone else opposed to this resolution, denied the Armenian genocide.

Just more bullshit.

"I think it's wildly irresponsible for Congress to pass this resolution at this time."

Have you got a good reason?

i spelled it out twice. you can't or won't seem to understand it.

The argument "we shouldn't meaninglessly acknowledge the armenian holocaust because it will make Turkey so made they'll invade Iraq" is not a reason argument.

So, lacking a reasonable argument for a "nay" vote, I'll have to resort to reaching my own conclusion.

Done.

listen to reason, and god forbid someone should feel emotional about this rez because they have ties to the Armenian community.

:eyes:

Any show of emotion disqualifies one from being rational :sarcasm:

Give me a fucking break.

I think we ought to take history as we find it. The Turks aren't going to deal with the Kurds because we acknowledge the genocide. They will do what they do for other reasons.

I will not go to my grave having denied the truth of the Armenian genocide, or that the Civil War was about anything other than slavery, or that the current war in Iraq is an immoral disaster, and if anybody wants to use that as an excuse to invade anybody else, I will know it is just that - an excuse.

you can't point to a singe instance where i did, but whatever, you just keep making stuff up.

Tukey moving in on the Kurds too, if I have my history correct, Turkey hit them during this time also (1915). The thought of anyone harming my friend or his family, equally pisses me off.

I don't understand why these two things are mutually exclusive?

I'm not saying that what happened in Turkey 90 years ago wasn't genocide. It was. BUT, hasn't the congress got better things to do than THIS? Isn't there enough business that needs to be taken care of besides declaring a 90 year old genocide a genocide?

Wexler votes (MOSTLY) the way his constituents want him to. I'm his constituent. And I'm GLAD he voted as he did. It's a stupid resolution.

Jewish congressman a little email telling him "shame on you" -- genocide, ethnic cleansing, mass slaughter is what it is, and Germany never got away with it. NO country should ever get away with persecuting or torturing another ethnic group within its midst.

I cannot believe I am reading this entire thread on a DEMOCRATIC board. Some of these posts are just heartless and argumentative.

Tell this to the survivors of 1915, Van, etc., families that were exterminated. I will not apologize for posting this thread, it's good to see who the real supporters are...listen to the comments on this rez by Diane Watson, she said it most eloquently. It's NOT ABOUT PISSING OFF TURKEY, and if Turkey does get pissed off, then they need to grow some cahones.

All of you that believe this is a stupid resolution are Bush enablers, because this mother-fucker is sweating bullets for some reason re: Turkey. Ask yourselves why.

Seriously. This resolution isn't being brought out now just because Congress wants to do the right thing. There's a REASON for this, and I'd like to know what it is before I give my support to it.

It was a genocide. We all know that. Acknowledging it would be the moral thing to do. However, there's something more important afoot here and you really should understand what before throwing this your support methinks.

Oh and by the way: "probably Jewish Congressman"? What the hell is wrong with you?

just thought he would be sympathetic. I guess not. And for the record, my father is Jewish, so don't go pulling that shit on me.

My Dad supports this resolution, genocide is genocide.

I think people just want to turn this into a flame fest so the mods will lock. :shrug:

I hope you aren't accusing me of that. However I think that this resolution, which on the surface appears to be a no-brainer, is being brought forward for reasons that are not obvious to me. Therefore I question it's purpose. Is that such a terrible thing in your eyes?

I think many people have tried to discuss this with you in this thread only to have you shut your ears to them. We all know it was a genocide but can we please discuss other aspects of this as well? Can you do that?

and all I see are Bush apologists, re: the timing is wrong, we can't piss off Turkey, etc.

What other aspects would you like to discuss? I cannot understand why people think that since this happened in 1915 it is old news and we should just forget about it. No.

Do you want to discuss US relations with Turkey? Do you want to make excuses for Bush so he can use Turkey as a launch pad for further war in the Middle East, perhaps with Iran?

I see no real valid arguments for not passing this resolution other than "the timing is bad." The timing is ALWAYS bad.

What then? Discuss away. I am all ears.

That really sets the tone for your debate.

YOU are the one turning this into a flame fest. I don't appreciate being called a Bush supporter, apologist, cruel, heartless, etc.

Do you really think people are going to listen to you when you flame THEM? Do you really think you will convince anyone by making them feel like defensive?

I don't give a shit if you disagree with me. Hell, I don't even care that you sent Wexler an email.

I will not apologize for believing that this is stupid. I stated my opinion and you fucking attack me for it. You want to disagree, fine, but all the "heartless, argumentative, bush-enabling" bullshit is over the top.

This resolution DOES NOTHING EXCEPT piss off Turkey. That mother fucker is sweating bullets because the last thing he needs in his stable little war is Turkey invading the north of Iraq.

I find it appalling that I'm reading YOUR posts on a DEMOCRATIC board. You are inflammatory and over the top with your insults, yet you don't even look at the possible consequences of the fucking resolution. THERE IS ONLY ONE CONSEQUENCE, WHICH IS THE MAKE TURKEY ANGRY AND FORCE THEM TO ATTACK THE KURDS, causing YET ANOTHER genocide that we will make a resolution on 90 years from now.

But, hey, if you want to live in your little soap bubble and just spout of bullshit without actually HEARING what others are saying, that is your right. Do you have family in the military? Will your brother be forced to deal with the consequences of this resolution you are hawking here? Will you support my three nephews if he gets killed?

No one has asked you to apologize. I support your right to spout whatever bullshit you wish. I think you are naive and gutless if you think foreign policy can be based on "if Turkey does get pissed off, then they need to grow some cahones" And I think that, for all that the Bush administration "protests", this fucking resolution is EXACTLY what they want. Any excuse to stay in Iraq longer.

So now I am spouting bullshit. Really nice.

How old are you by the way, about 5? Get off the playground.

I specified which bullshit you were spouting:

"all the "heartless, argumentative, bush-enabling" bullshit"

Classic response from someone who can't respond to the actual argument, so goes for the "attack the person" BULLSHIT. After the "you are a Bush enabler because you don't agree with me", you go for "You're a 5 year old" Nice... really fucking nice. Where did you learn your debating skills? Like I stated before...

If you want to disagree, that's fine. The ad hominem attacks are over the top. You are not debating the merits of your post or even the merits of this resolution. You are just attacking everyone who disagrees with you. THAT is where you are spouting bullshit.

And I don't need a mirror. Thank you for the suggestion.

That sucks. :wtf:

but not acknowledge this resolution that was brought forth. So will we turn our heads when our so called ally Turkey start killing Kurds in Northern Iraq.

It would be ironic if not for the contrived timing.

....

In a series of interviews in Europe, the Middle East, and the United States, officials told me that by the end of last year Israel had concluded that the Bush Administration would not be able to bring stability or democracy to Iraq, and that Israel needed other options. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s government decided, I was told, to minimize the damage that the war was causing to Israel’s strategic position by expanding its long-standing relationship with Iraq’s Kurds and establishing a significant presence on the ground in the semi-autonomous region of Kurdistan. Several officials depicted Sharon’s decision, which involves a heavy financial commitment, as a potentially reckless move that could create even more chaos and violence as the insurgency in Iraq continues to grow.

Israeli intelligence and military operatives are now quietly at work in Kurdistan, providing training for Kurdish commando units and, most important in Israel’s view, running covert operations inside Kurdish areas of Iran and Syria. Israel feels particularly threatened by Iran, whose position in the region has been strengthened by the war. The Israeli operatives include members of the Mossad, Israel’s clandestine foreign-intelligence service, who work undercover in Kurdistan as businessmen and, in some cases, do not carry Israeli passports.

....

The Israeli decision to seek a bigger foothold in Kurdistan—characterized by the former Israeli intelligence officer as “Plan B”—has also raised tensions between Israel and Turkey. It has provoked bitter statements from Turkish politicians and, in a major regional shift, a new alliance among Iran, Syria, and Turkey, all of which have significant Kurdish minorities. In early June, Intel Brief, a privately circulated intelligence newsletter produced by Vincent Cannistraro, a retired C.I.A. counterterrorism chief, and Philip Giraldi, who served as the C.I.A.’s deputy chief of base in Istanbul in the late nineteen-eighties, said:

Turkish sources confidentially report that the Turks are increasingly concerned by the expanding Israeli presence in Kurdistan and alleged encouragement of Kurdish ambitions to create an independent state. . . . The Turks note that the large Israeli intelligence operations in Northern Iraq incorporate anti-Syrian and anti-Iranian activity, including support to Iranian and Syrian Kurds who are in opposition to their respective governments.


....

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/06/28/040628fa_fact?printable=true

we spent all that time arguing about yet another non-binding resolution-that acheives nothing and benefits no one.Will it change the behavior of nations now committing genocide...no....but the hell with them,we have acheived justice for something that happened 100 years ago.That will ease a lot of consciences when they realize that from a humanitarian standpoint-USA is a poser-saying a lot,and doing little.