If black kids study, they get labeled as "acting white"

Bill Cosby was talking about this on MTP this morning. This is interesting. Often this sort of thing happens in minority communities. Like I am a Blackfeet Indian, and I noticed most of my life that if one of my fellow tribal members left the reservation for any amount of time, it was a negative thing. Like if an Indian kid left the reservation, got a degree and started a career off the reservation, people tend to think this person thinks they are better than everybody else. They'll say he/she is an "apple" or they are acting "white." And trust me, the last thing any minority ever wants to be called is "white" because in the context it is used in is a grave insult.

It's pervasive.

For example, if a kid doesn't go out and drink he is perceive again as acting "white." There is a tremendous amount of pressure among your peers to drink, avoid studies, and never leave the reservation. Now you might get away with say being a good student and be fine if you go out and get drunk every weekend. But once you start going against these certain things it hurts a person socially.

Think about this for a second. I don't know a single friend of mine who has ever actually sat down and read a book. And most of my friends have had problems with drugs and/or alcohol at certain times. Probably 80 percent of them have had kids out of wedlock. Out of my closest friends, none of them have a college degree. Virtually all of them have committed adultery. Even into their late twenties and thirties, childish behavior is quite normal.

Now this is not to say that they are all bad. Most of them work hard and have decent jobs etc, but life is a struggle.

And the socioeconomic problems continue in the same cycle. Women are mistreated. Alcohol and drugs are abused. Crime is high. Indian males go to jail and eventually prisons at a much higher rate than white people in my home state.

This is almost accepted, I think. It's poisoned the culture. Being a drunk is almost lovable. Being a womanizer is a status symbol. Young women having kids while in their teens is barely even blinked at. Graduation rates are significantly lower than the non-reservation town 30 miles away.

But all of that is more acceptable, I think, than a kid who studies all the time and doesn't drink alcohol or do drugs. And if you aren't promiscuous, forget about it, you get all kinds of shit over that.

I don't know, I just find the embracing of negatives to be an interesting and sad phenomenom among minority groups.

My family is full of very successful people (my brother is a Harvard Law graduate) so I didn't experience it at home at all (in fact, I got just the opposite...not going to college was NOT an option) but at school, I always got made fun of for not being "black enough". I honestly think a lot of that stems from jealousy, ignorance and self-loathing. Among confident and self-assured blacks who are comfortable with who they are, you don't really see that kind of attitude.

Whats scary is when you point things like this out, alot of times you will get labelled as a racist, which is far from the truth.
I think it has more to do with certain elements in pop culture today (I find Hip-Hop to be very anti-intellectual, as well as Country Music in some ways). There is also a rising element of anti-intellectualism in this country as well. You can find almost as much disdain for studious behavior in white students as well--The whole Jocks are Cool and nerds and geeks are loser kind of attitude as well.

Never. Not since the first caveman picked up a twig and used it to scratch something in the dirt to show somebody else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life Written in 1963!!!



When you read the snobbery, elitism, and outright discriminatory attitudes right here at DU aimed at working class people in the US in "Red" states who happen to like say, NASCAR, guns or hunting, you see extremely quickly that Intellectuals can be some of the biggest bigots around.

{shakes head}


Look how well that's worked out for us -- people voting for who they'd rather have a beer with, and having disdain for intelligent candidates.

No I'm pointing out WHY it has existed and the hard cold fact that many intellectuals are not blameless.

Specifically, the use of anti-intellectualism by Big Money to distract the common man? Intellectuals make lovely scapegoats, and the MSM's and right-wing media's invented tales of intellectual elitism are far more significant today than actual snobbish behavior.

No, it's not entirely the fault of the commoner. Always remember the part played by the powerful who see to it that the commoner is not educated, and who burn real thinkers in effigy daily.

Oligarchs always want to maintain their grips on powers.

Is there any sort of community pressure to do better than one's parents? Here is an article that is a rather extreme example of community pressure, the pressure Syrian Jews put on their kids not to marry outside the Jewish faith by issuing "The Edict"...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/magazine/14syrians-t.html?ref=magazine

Enter the rabbis with their Edict, in 1935. They wanted to build an iron wall of self-separation around the community. They couldn’t do this the Hassidic way, dressing the men in costumes of ancient design, physically segregating women and making sure that children received nothing in the way of useful secular education. After all, the Syrian men couldn’t be expected to make money if they looked like figures from 18th-century Poland.

And so the rabbis turned to the heart of the matter: matrimony. Most American Jewish communities in those days (and many today) viewed intermarriage as a taboo. Conversion, however, was a loophole. The Edict intended to close that loophole. It proclaimed, “No male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non-Jews; this law covers conversion, which we consider to be fictitious and valueless.”

too many parents never have grown up themselves. And often kids are raised in a situation where their dad might have a few kids by a few different women, so they have half-siblings, and maybe their parents are borderline or full-fledged alcoholics too. Next thing you know kids are doing the same thing, they are raised to think it's ok. Not all the time, of course, but I see this as a problem to an extent.

I think one of the biggest problem with parents on reservations is they are enablers. Even parents who are good people and otherwise good examples. Indians are very communal and familial. Your friends are like brothers and sisters, their parents are almost like parents. Your cousins are like brothers and sisters and your Aunts and Uncles are almost like parents. You get into a comfortable culture where you can walk in any number of houses, open up the fridge and stay over without even asking. It's a very loving environment in many ways, but often kids are allowed to coast by because nobody makes them do anything. They can bounce around party, and borrow money, have a place to stay, food to eat, with not a lot of pressure to change. And if they do leave the reservation, Indian kids have trouble staying in school or keeping employment in other towns, because the allure of the reservation is so strong. It's where you have all the people who love you, and these people make life much easier for you than when you're out in the cold cruel world. And whereas white parents often make a point of getting their kids out and off to school or work when they turn 18 or graduate high school, often Indian parents encourage their children not to leave home. Breaking that familial and communal connection is rough. Like I never went to college until I was 24, before that I literally did almost nothing for 5 years. Barely worked or anything. It was easy to get stuck in that. And in the end, instead of people encouraging me to leave, almost everybody I know, including my parents, practically begged me not to leave. (I moved to Seattle for school) For me, every time I left it was a struggle because people tried to get me to stay home. I was 27 years old and my parents were trying to get me to stay on the reservation, even though there was nothing for me there. It's always enticing to do so, too. That allure and familial atmosphere never goes away. It's both good and bad.

The perceived behavior/personality that leads to a kid being teased may or may not coincide with studying and good grades. It's like that in almost all academic settings actually. (Example - A student may be teased and called a nerd but that kid might not necessarily get good grades, and another student may have a 4.0 and be the most popular kid in school)

We're now facing the same crisis. Young men who choose an academic path are being called sissies. This year intake at University of the West Indies, Mona Campus in Jamaica is 85% female -it is beyond frightening.

If women became the predominant leaders in matters of an intellectual nature. MANkind hasn't done much with such power except make a lot of dick shaped weapons.

... "nerds" "geeks" "grinds" or whatever. That there's no intellectual integrity where there's no intellect exercised can be no surprise. I think it's a grave error to succumb to any temptation to impose a racial template onto such vitriol merely because racism offers a rich source of such epithets. Bullies and cowards ALWAYS employ the "ganging up" language of excommunication and "we" against "(singular)you." (Hell, we see it on DU all the time. Playground bully rhetoric.) Such "traitor to race" rhetoric is powerful and hurtful - but to even begin to credit its use to racism (even of the self-loathing impact) is to afford it more semantic legitimacy than it deserves, imho.

"Bullies and cowards ALWAYS employ the "ganging up" language of excommunication and "we" against "(singular)you.""

It strikes me that Cosby's idea misses the mark, like he's a tool of manipulation instead of understanding, perhaps that explains his many corporate media appearances. Everything in our lives is meant to separate and dissect us, from the first moment we enter school, to the day we first start working, even presumably to the day we die.

BTW: One of the favorite tactics the eggheads use against everyone else, including other wannabe eggheads, is summed up with the single word: expulsion.

and other to college, and genocidal US policy has much to do with the plight of the native americans. even the blacks too.

none of this stuff happens in a vacuum.

I think it's all interrelated, to narrow it down to just one or two things is simplification. Problem is all too many people try to limit it to their own view.

email list populated primarily by academics who are of working class origins. They encounter this regularly, family members who think they are uppity when they talk differently than them. Also, there is a disconnect between those academics of a working class background and those of a more privileged background, in language and experiences.

and saw the same stuff.

Although I was actually never picked on really and instead got respect for being the resident genius. It wasn't until I got on the net that I ran into the "Why you tryin' to be better 'n us?" thing.

Hmm - I wonder if it's because I never studied?

Hahaha, doing better than your parents - maybe in a world where the playing field was level. But it's not, and without extraordinary luck you're probably not going to make it much out of the tax bracket you were born into.

I don't work in a mill like my mother did up until NAFTA, but I'm also making less money than she did in the mill. My brother is making more money than either one of us, but then the lucky bastard graduated from community college in the early 90s back when things were still halfway decent and you still had sort of a chance and has managed to keep his job since then, although he also gets the occasional threat about taking the operations overseas.

Why does it happen, you think? What sort of psychology is behind being threatened by intelligence?

as "I'm a dego, your a wop, I eat spaghetti, you eat slop" grade school rhyme the Italian kids said , or to greet each other with "hey greaser" (amoung Greeks) or "Hey N'ger" amoung blacks, always bothered me - perhaps more because it made all those not in the group "outsiders" than any social stigma (at least in the 40's I was too young to see the social crap's tie to economic crap). And bias extended to the schools where early on in grade school I was well below average IQ per the evaluations, but with my teaching myself a massive vocabulary and all the high school math and science before entering High School, I suddenly became the highest scoring kid in the state on the high schools end of sophomore year state mandated IQ test (neither ranking was deserved - I credit more than a few lucky guesses for the second result).

But I think that has changed with the drug wars which are really a war on blacks - when a group is under this fierce a war it is harder for members of the group to break out than it was in the 50's and 60's. WW2 was the end of the massive racism in the US (there was never an end to racism - but it was much less than when my dad was growing up). But the massive improvement in communication has perhaps made this perhaps lower level - lower than the 30's - of racism more hurtful.

Note the "perhaps" above - I am no expert in this area - these are just my observations and my memories of my prior observations.

for saying this, but this attitude is racism, pure and simple, on the part of the "minorities" who engage in it.

We are all in one world, and to live in it we have to be educated in its ways and in some method to make our way through it. Otherwise, we must stay on the "reservation", otherwise known as segregating ourselves. How, at the bottom line, is this different from what white Souterners were attemptng to do? (Notice, I'm not asking about the differences in tactics).

But here's the thing about staying on the reservation, or in refusing to study, etc. Then we cannot compete with the rest of the world. We doom ourselves to functional inferioty. This is not something to take pride in, IMO. Something to take pride in would be to beat the white man at his own game. This takes effort, study, and work.

racist tendencies against whites. Part of it is anger. But I have even had racial thoughts like this myself. There is a certain amount of indoctrination that people who in communities that have a certain amount of racial turmoil. It's like the clash of races creates a sort of cultural tornado. But I frequently hear what I consider racist language against whites, for sure. It exists and I believe only exacerbates the problem.

We have trouble getting black male youths into college and completing college even if we make it free.

Part of the stereotyping is that it's only minority communities affected by this attitude. It isn't. Of course when we white kids choose to stay in school, not have kids as teens, etc. we become white to the whole world. There is no lower expectation for us outside of the neighborhood because we no longer fit the stereotype.

What is also true is that I experienced the "lowered expectations" of the middle and upper income white community nearby. By the time I was in 4th grade I went to school with kids whose parents had college degrees and worked in white collar jobs. I had friends tell me that they weren't allowed to visit me at home because of where I lived. Their parents would compliment me on my good manners and articulate speech. At the time I didn't understand it but my parents did. There were even teachers who treated me differently once they knew where I lived or that after my parents divorced we were one of those welfare families. There's nothing like having your potential role models stomp on your neck too.

I still have family and friends who live there and the pattern of behavior hasn't changed that much. Still high drop out and incarceration rates, still having babies before they can afford them, still too much drinking and drugging. There has been some progress on all these markers but the kids who break the pattern are too rare. I would wager in fact that fewer do than in my day because we had the benefits of the lingering Great Society programs and a vibrant blue collar working community. The kids today have far fewer job opportunities without higher ed and federal financial aid for the poor hasn't kept pace.

part of town.

Higher teen-age pregnancy rate.
Lower high school graduation rate.
More drug and alcohol addiction.
More law enforcement problems.

Just sayin'

Kudos to Bill Cosby for bringing problems like this to light. What's the general consensus from the African American readership of DU? Are you afraid to be known as an "Apple" because you post on and read an intelligent discussion site? Seriously just curious.

That was the name they used in middle Alabama.

especially because I look white. I spent my high school years as an underachieving student who made himself a star athlete. When I was younger I was studious, but there was much less prestige in being smart as opposed to being an athlete in my family and community. Now though, I am different. I rarely drink, and spend most of my time in intellectual pursuits, much of which has to do with American Indian studies. I'll probably work in Indian policy and devote my life to it. Many people get it now, and the ones who don't really don't matter to me. But yes, there are a lot of people who that sort of thing does matter to, for sure.

at least seems to be less now as more and more families are multi-ethnic at family picnics.


Indeed very light makes you "white" on the census, I guess!

I refuse to dumb myself down to meet some arbitrary notion of what's "Black".

My wife and I hear it from time to time. Get this: We raise naturally sustainable veggies as a side business.

We were discussing it with a family member and you know what she said? That "Raising your own food was Bougie!" My jaw hit the floor.

But to answer your question: No I'm not afraid. Hell I never heard the term Apple until I read this thread.

:shrug:

Apple = red outside, white inside
Oreo = black outside, white inside

Clever clever.

"Apple" or "Oreo". Or for that matter, I don't know anyone who looks down on education.

permanent under class.

Welcome to Brave New World.

so I'm not sure that this is a new phenomenon.

These are the same Greeks who penned the "sour grapes" story which makes me think that human behavior is well known and hasn't changed much in the last 2500 years.

Like minded people seek like minded people. If you are different in your group, then you will leave. This is the problem. What the groups see is that their group will be diminished, and in that is a fear of non-survival. It doesn't matter that those who are different could bring strength to their group, the group think isn't logical. All the group think knows is that more is better.

You see it in every neighborhood. Check out the house that is different. If it is run down, you will find people moving "before the property values go down". If it is well kept and outstanding in the neighborhood, people will move "before property taxes go up". In each case, you have "white flight". The selling actually contributes to the phenomena, driving people out of their neighborhoods.

The trick is to get people to join "your group", even if it's a group of one. Showing that you can be in both groups at the same time, and not only survive, but thrive. Parents also fear that they will be left behind, when their children "better" themselves, or that the child will think less of them.

It is a survival mechanism, in the truest form. It is not thought out, for if it was, no one would try to hold you back.

zalinda

he will have something of worth to say.

If you're not born into a life that's supposed to be successful and you behave like you strive to be successful, then you're 'disrespecting' your community/heritage. The masses always sabotage themselves or else why would anyone—anyone—go fight a rich man's war?

"C student" is telling the Ph.D. what to do? This country in general does not respect people with academic credentials the way people do in other parts of the world, imo.

I've read this before, but I have not personally experienced it or seen it. I not this was probably true in some cases but not overall.

There was fierce competition in our classes for the highest grades. We also fiercely competed with other schools. We wanted nothing less than to win the state rallies. We were devastated with second or god forbid third place. But, yes that was my generation.

I have not heard the kids (my teenagers generation) use the term 'acting white' to describe the smart kids. Maybe they have better sense than to use that term at home.

I am not saying that this doesn't happen but I have not seen this up close and personal.

Been influenced by the negative aspects of hip-hop etc. Plus athletes are glorified too. I also think younger people, myself included, are separated from the civil rights movements and that whole fight, so we tend to take a lot of that for granted. Anti-intellectualism is rampant in all parts of society now too, I'm sure that has an effect.

Our President is a dumb ass.

After I graduated with multiple degrees, my education didn't do me an ounce of good. I still had to work for $6.50/hr in a warehouse while my credit rating got destroyed. Trying to accomplish something ruined my life.

This is the world we live in. Why should they try to make anything of themselves? The elite will not have it. And most the elite are dumb asses themselves who inherited everything from smart ancestors. Yes, this problem has a great chance of ruining the U.S.

Edit: My point is this is not a black/white thing but a social phenomenon. There are groups of many ethnicities which are smart enough to realize that education is futile in many case given this system that makes education futile.

i cannot locate what this thread inspires in me.

i can tell that many of the posters here haven't spent much time in inner city black neighborhoods, the projects, or among poor people. that isn't a blanket accusation, notice i said MANY, not ALL.

but even white poverty is different than black poverty.

you take two poor boys, one black, one white, and the white child will have at least a slim margin of a chance to transcend his social class.

in a world where a black person, regardless of whatever they achieve, will always have the qualifier "black" attached to them (e.g., they're not just A doctor, but a BLACK doctor) what incentive is there in appropriating the hateful, classist, and destructive ways of the worst aspects of white culture? any person of color will never truly be accepted. shit, bill cosby probably will never hear what those same people who agree with him say behind his back.

lots of young black men will tell you that you can't sell dope forever, but if you can sell it for at least 10 years, you end up with assloads of money or a criminal record.

$6.50/hour or $500 - $3,000/day selling dope?

not much of a choice there when you're born into the fifth generation of poverty, when you go to stores and restaurants that have bullet proof glass and chicken wire to separate the product from the customers.

i even noticed that when they first put the dominicks (a chicago area grocery store) in the middle of cabrini green, they did everything EXCEPT put in self-checkouts. why do you think this is? yeah, there is still public housing in the midst of the gentrification. last week they finally started putting them in. took about 6 years though.

but my bottom line is how can anyone expect a class of people to embrace education when they are denied even the simple things: equal access to modern school facilities and textbooks? it all comes down to the zip code you live in. that's how they determine if they will treat your child like a criminal or a budding scholar.
it's complicated. i can halfway see their point

I have three degrees. I spent 12 years in college. I have an associate's, a bachelor's and a doctorate (Juris Doctor - law degree). I spent all my working life in the legal profession. Started as a legal secretary and then became a court reporter, and got the BA and the JD after the Associate's in court reporting (stenography).

I looked for a paralegal job for a year and a half, with that J.D. and got ONE interview and they weren't even decent enough to call me back. The B.A. never got me a job either. I have decided that the job market is a farce, and I committed the sin of growing older. I'm over 40 so therefore am overqualified, overskilled, overeducated, and cost too much to be hired by a cheapskate employer.

I decided to stop trying to compete in the rat race, since it wasn't working, so I am going to sell the house and retire to the country.

I am white and grew up with white rednecks who picked on me mercilessly. I got called "queer" constantly, not to mention "walking dictionary" and "walking encyclopedia". The one I heard countless times a day was "queer" because that was the highest insult that could be hurled at someone by a bully. This was before the word "gay" was popular.

We lived in a refinery town and my dad was a pipefitter. However he went to law school on the G.I. Bill in the late 40s and became college educated, although he never made a lot of money practicing law, because his clients were working class rednecks.


The anti-intellectualism in this country is one of the reasons we are falling behind other countries. I am not old enough to remember it, but they hurled the term "egghead" at Adlai Stevenson when he was running for president, because he was smart.

If a Black kid dresses nicely, speaks nicely, and studies he is perceived as acting White. Conversely a White kid that dresses slouchy, listens to rap music and is a slacker...he is perceived as acting Black.
It is a dichotomy that truly needs to be addressed for what it is... racism.

hatchet job to the English language. After I couldn't take it anymore, I asked if her family was bi lingual and/or did she take English classes at school. She looked me straight in the eye and said, I can speak English. I also speak 'Ghetto'. I suggested that she keep her 'Ghetto talk' for her home as we were taught to speak the King's English.

Jeesh!

most of the Black parents in our community that I know would kick THEIR kid's ass if they heard them speaking like that,lol.

On MTP this morning and the book they were discussing is Come One People! The Path from Victim to Victors. Buy it - read it . . . because it makes sense.

Remember in 2004 when Bill Cosby told the truth? And I say he was telling the truth because of my ethnicity (multi racial). The black community (poor and uneducated) was in an uproar. Those of us who are not poor and uneducated that came from strong families - were APPLAUDING him. He hit the nail on the head then, and he's hitting the nail on the head now.

I think we have to understand the full context of what was being spoken about before we pull ONE point that was made out of this morning's discussion. Someone on this thread stated that when 'minorities do this - it's racism'. No - I can't speak for the Native American community - my Cherokee blood goes back to the turn of the last century. It sure is - it's racism against oneself - not whites! It's accepting and buying into the stereotypes because one does not know better. They haven't been parented. Look, my mom is a mix of Irish, German and French heritage. My dad is black, irish, cherokee. They've been together for 40 years. Not going to college was NOT an option - it was WHERE are you going to college. Stand up straight. Fly right. VOTE. Be active in your community. If you see bullshit - call them on it.

There is a segment/portion of young, inner city, black youth today that see bullshit and their parents are defeatists so they assume it's okay to be a defeatist and not even try to overcome the BS that's around them.

The days of saying, "It's institutionalized racism" are over. Do I doubt it exists - Hell no! It does. But it's not 1961 anymore. There are laws in place that if you play by the rules, play the game, get a few letters after your last name . . . are in place that say you can sue the shit out of someone who denies you the opportunity to thrive economically.

No, instead this portion of black society say instead: it's 'cute' to have street credentials and a baby at 15.

Having gotten ahold of a copy of the book - and having watched the discussion this morning . . . it's not about 'acting' white' Watch it again this evening. Read the book. Then let's have another go at a discussion on this topic.

From the MTP link on the MSNBC Website:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21279731/

On what it takes:
“What will it take to pull our people out of poverty? What will get us to contemplate a life with brighter dreams? What will inspire us to pursue the future as if it mattered? How will we learn to respect ourselves and help each other? What will it take for us to become entrepreneurs and to run businesses that will serve the community, not destroy it? We ask these questions only because we think there are answers, real ones, attainable ones.”

On criticism:
“Certain people tell us that we are picking on the poor. Many of those who accuse us are scholars and intellectuals, upset that we are not blaming everything on white people as they do. Well, only blaming the system keeps certain black people in the limelight but it also keeps the black poor wallowing in victimhood.”

On raising children:
“All black parents can do right by their children, and all black children can succeed. There is no reason why not.”

“Use standard English when you have your kids together, not Black English. They’ll hear enough of that in the streets…Watch the movie My Fair Lady. All cultures discriminate against people who have not mastered the standard language, and when race is involved, it is all that much harder for a nonstandard speaker to feel competent or even at home in the culture.”

On the media:
“Some of the most negative images of African Americans on TV and in the movies seem to be the most popular among young people—black and white. With both good and bad media out there, you have to help select media for kids that will support their successes and suppress their urge to give up or drop out.”

On black men:
“Gangsta rap makes our young people tough, but not so tough they can walk through prison walls. It can jazz them about sex, but it can’t begin to make them a good father. No matter how often, or how publicly they grab their crotches, crotch-grabbing isn’t even going to get them a bus ride downtown.”

“When all is said and done, the black child is our future. It’s time for us men to think of the future, to straighten out our acts, to say to ourselves, I am more interested in raising my child than any other issue I had before. I’m going to behave or get help, but it’s about the child. No matter how useless or hopeless a father may think he is, his role is simply to be there. If he makes that commitment, he is a much better man than he thought he was.”

On “victimhood”:
“Sometimes people with a victim mentality feel hopeless and do self-destructive things that make their lives even worse. It is time to redirect that energy. It is time to think positively and act positively. Black communities and families must provide our youth with the love and guidance that keeps them strong and on that positive path. Blaming white people can be a way for some black people to feel better about themselves but it doesn’t pay the electric bills.”



By the way - it's NOT in all communities where black kids get labeled as 'white'. My friends (of all races) that attended my private preparatory highschool? Studying was called acting like you wanted to be there, go to university, and make a million dollars a year. It was eerily similiar to the message my dad's peers gave him going to school in a segregated (all black) school in Northern Alabama in the 1940's and 1950's.

I say - there's nothing wrong with shoving and 'elitist' message down the throats of black kids. If I have children - they will have it shoved down their throats too.

Maya Angelou made a very valid point a few years back when she was talking to young Black people. Paraphrased it was something like "The CEO of the Timberlin shoe company oppresses African Americans, however, young African Americans PREDOMINANTLY buy that brand of shoe".
She also said this:
"When we talk about racism, we have to see that we are not just talking about acts against blacks, we are talking about vulgarities against any human being because of her -- his -- race. This is vulgar. That is what it is, whether it is anti-Asian, whether it is the use of racial prejudices about Jews, about Japanese, about Native Americans, about blacks, about Irish, it is stupid, because what it is really is it is poison. It poisons the spirit, the human spirit. I know there are blacks who say, "I can use the N-word because I mean it endearingly." I don't believe that. I believe it is vulgar and dangerous, given from any mouth to any ear. I know that if poison is in a vial which says P-O-I-S-O-N and has a skull and the cross bones, that it is poison. But if you pour the same thing into Bavarian crystal it is still poison. So I think racism is vulgar any way you cut it."
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/ang0int-4

some of their energy on health care issues, inadequate school systems, an unfair and unequal justice system that affects EVERYONE.

"Remember in 2004 when Bill Cosby told the truth? And I say he was telling the truth because of my ethnicity (multi racial). The black community (poor and uneducated) was in an uproar. Those of us who are not poor and uneducated that came from strong families - were APPLAUDING him. He hit the nail on the head then, and he's hitting the nail on the head now."

Cosby told a truth that applies to a percentage of black, Hispanic as well as white folk. This truth does not apply to all whites nor does it apply to all or even MOST blacks. My ethnicity (as most black people) is multiracial. (I'm a genealogist and I've got ethnicities coming out the wazoo) Ethnicity has nothing to do with calling BS. I don't remember the poor black community in an uproar over that remark.
Cosby said the same thing when he was in New Orleans last year. The paper reported that the crowd became upset. I know for a fact that was not true as I was there when the crowd cheered and applauded.

I was one of those who came from very a strong, educated and supportive family who did not applaud. I'll applaud Cosby when I see him roll up his sleeves and get his hands dirty. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. But if he really got out there with the troops, he'd have to face the same kind of derision of Sharpton and Jackson. Can't have that now can we.

I was in Detroit on business when he made those comments - trust me - there was an UPROAR in Detroit! :rofl:

I wish you'd seen it and read the book NOLAlady. . . seriously. The white subruban kids that are pulling the 'ghetto talk' are doing it to be cool and get a reaction. The black inner city youth? They're doing it because they learned it from their parents. Walk in Camden, Newark, or the Oranges. They can't speak proper English because the schools aren't insisting they speak it - or READ it. Which means even if they DO get into a University and 'get by' - they are going to be severely disadvantaged at the first job interview.


I'll applaud Sharpton and Jackson when they extend their energy to other communities as well. Okey dokey?

when you didn't discuss anything I wrote about in the first place.

and they get bullied

crabs in a barrel and all that. Been there, done that. Endured many a beating because my speech patterns did not conform to expectations dictated by my skin color...

:hug:

:hug::loveya::hug:

Think about it.. before the civil rights era, most towns had "sections".. In the black section, there were black doctors, lawyers, grocers, beauticians, barbers, teachers, nurses, ...you name it.. Their society was a mirror image of the "white society"...(only poorer). Kids grew up with limitations, to be sure, BUT they had REAL role models. They could aspire to learn in their rickety (by white standards) schools, but they could learn and prosper in their own communities...all of them.. the laborers and the professionals.

Once affirmative action & civil rights changed all their lives, the brightest and most inspired left their local communities and the ones left behind probably suffered the loss.. Just maybe the ones who "got ahead" felt a little guilty for their success, and were ostracized by the ones who did not get ahead.

Maybe the hardscrabble life left to the ones who stayed in the poorest areas led to their current lingo and way of life..

I don't know that affirmative action and civil rights 'changed' the already prosperings' lives. Bear with me. It's a fallacy that not a single black person voted in the Deep South prior to the Voting Rights Act. If you had money, were educated, had white 'friends' who get you the language test in advance - you COULD indeed vote. My Granddaddy and his dad are perfect examples (albeit Republican until the late 1930's) of the few who COULD vote. It's also a fallacy that all blacks were poor or 'poorer' than the whites in their communities. That's why we had situations like Waco 1, Paducah 1, and Rosewood. That 'class' of blacks - their children WERE attending college as early as the 1880's. They owned their own land, they were educated themselves and it all rolled uphill from there.

Affirmative Action obviously did not change much for those who were 'left behind' - or they wouldn't be left behind. . . and certainly the Welfare State that LBJ set up DID affect their lives. There was a time when black families stuck together no matter what, having babies out of wedlock was frowned upon, being in the 'Church' was not lip service . . . I could go on and on. That way of life ended amongst the poorest of many inner city (read NORTHERN blacks) in the mid 1960's.

I don't think it's the hardscrabble way of life - I think it's an active choice to not give a damn that's lead to the current lingo and way of life, mixed in with a system that rewarded people for not working (prior to Workfare) and/or having dad's in the home. It's an active choice to call 50 Cent the luckiest man alive - yet ignore the guy who puts in a 60 hour week and can't get ahead.

It's hard to feel guilt when you've worked hard, and you've had generations of people bucking the system to get around the system, so your hard work could get you someplace.

I do however believe this is an issue that needs to be managed by blacks. More of us need to mentor, tutor and actively engage in the lives of young people in these bad financial and societal situations. We need to do more. And that's the point of the book and the discussion. Those who are in my position (the bird dog seat) need to do more. We can longer say, "Well our kind of people . . ."

socioeconomic issue. The anti-intellectualism of the poorest class of Americans is alive and well. I know this because that's where I came from. I was born to absolutely dirt-poor parents, and spent my years of minority growing up in the dingiest trailer park in town. Neither of my parents graduated high school. I was fortunate enough to win the genetic lottery, and showed extremely high intelligence and aptitude from the moment I entered kindergarten. My younger brother and sister weren't so lucky. They aren't stupid by any stretch, but neither of them ever developed the abilities that I have.

My childhood was confusing and painful. Whenever I won an academic competition, a spelling bee, or a school award, my parents were extremely proud of my accomplishment, but also uncomfortable with it. Attending an awards ceremony meant "dressing up", which wasn't easy for people who didn't own any dress clothes. They were proud that I was out there proving that poor people are "every bit as good" as rich people, but ashamed of having their poverty on display, of having teachers and principals tell them how extraordinary it was for me to be so brilliant "in spite of the hardships at home", like being poor was a tragic disease I had overcome. After the initial few years in school, my parents pretty much stopped attending these functions *at all* because they were just too uncomfortable around it. They were proud of me, but they couldn't bring themselves to go sit on display in their poor clothes and cheap haircuts like zoo animals for the better-off parents to gawk at. The facial expressions of the wealthier parents were easily readable--resentment that a "trailer trash" little girl was getting an award that their child wasn't, and culture confusion over how exactly to speak to people who weren't even *close* to sharing the same "class".

The opposite was also true: well-intentioned ladies with comfortable lives who tried to purposely "include" my Mom in their social gatherings. Their hearts were in the right place, but Mom felt like an alien around them. They discussed things like exotic new recipes, their kids' soccer practice, and what kind of mileage to look for when buying a new car. Their lives were completely foreign to someone who cooked whatever was cheapest, couldn't afford lessons or sports equipment for her kids, and drove a 25-year-old banged-up car with a smoky engine because wishing for a new car might as well have been a wish for the moon itself.

As I graduated into middle school, I started feeling a lot of resentment from the people in my own community. Never from my parents, of course, but neighbors, friends, and extended relatives constantly dropped snide comments and unwelcome observations about me. Some of the comments I overheard:

"If you keep letting her think she's going to college, you're just gonna to break her heart when it doesn't happen. And you KNOW it's not gonna happen. Our kind don't go to no damned college."

"That girl is getting awfully full of herself. She should be proud to be who she is, and stop pretending to be better than everyone else."

"She should spend more time worryin' about her soul with God, and less time hidin' in those books."

The other poor kids were no better. They resented the hell out of me because I didn't "play the game". Poor kids are supposed to act like they're proud to be uneducated, to embrace ignorance as a rebellion against the "rich folks who think they're better than us". If you were so unlucky as to be born smart, you were expected to hide it.

If and when I ever become financially successful enough to be able to give something substantial back to the poor community here in West Virginia, I want to start some kind of afterschool program to help other poor children break out of these cultural stereotypes. I understand the resentment that poor people feel for the better-off classes of people, but rejecting every intellectual pursuit because education is associated with higher class status is a toxic thing to do.

To some of my peers. They responded, "No, you're just smart."

Studying and abstaining from alcohol, drugs, and sex have never caused me to be ridiculed in my presence. I am currently 22.

She said there are some blacks as well as some whites who don't care about their grades. But, that was a very tiny minority. She said the 'Katrina refugees' were some of the uninterested blacks. There are whites, she called 'head bangers' who also had no interest in learning.
She wasn't aware of a large majority of kids, white or black who made fun of the smart kids.

In a society that is NOT creating jobs at the rate of high school and college graduates where would these kids work if tomorrow they all became Rhodes scholars?

Forbes - Five Reasons to Skip College



For more than 15 years across the country, college graduates have been competing with high school graduates for bartending, waiters, servers, cab drivers, and other jobs low paying jobs because the job market is shrinking.

Since the 1980s, under the "Great Communicator", blue collars jobs that was a gateway for many simply vanished. Business leaders "promised" to "retrain" the blue collar workers who loss their jobs. It never happened. Suddenly, businesses declared that we were an "information" society as they restructed the job inventory and shipped jobs overseas. Today, business and political leaders are still using the "information society" mantra as jobs are outsourced. IF, we are an "information society", why are our jobs being sent overseas?

If you want to see what happens when Blacks succeed in an area in overwhelming numbers, look no further than Washington, D.C. Before the arrival of this administration, Black females were postured to move into literally every top-level position in the government. That’s not going to happen now, thanks to *. This administration has revamped the personnel management system by creating new rules that allows them to bring the good ole boys from the streets. The same goes on through out the country.

When Blacks see their relatives with mater degrees driving cabs they figure "why bother"? They are simply NOT reacting to the false affirmation that IF you get a GOOD education you will realize the "American Dream".

/end rant

this pressure and judgement does not come from the white community. In fact most of the daily beat down doesn't come from the white community.

Perhaps, and just perhaps, if the focus was not always on the racism juggernaut and instead was placed back on one's own community, things might change.

this pressure and judgement does not come from the white community. In fact most of the daily beat down doesn't come from the white community.

Whenever blacks have given whites serious competition in anything that really matters, whites made them regret it. That's probably how this downward-conformist, "tall-poppy" strategy got started. The hassle the smart black kid has to take early on from his peers won't hold a candle to what resentful whites will dish out later.

Perhaps, and just perhaps, if the focus was not always on the racism juggernaut and instead was placed back on one's own community, things might change.

Perhaps, and just perhaps, if blacks could really learn the secret to ignoring whites in the way that recent immigrants from Africa and Asia do, then their horizons would widen.

in urban environments for almost 20 years. It aint the white kids who beat down the black kid when he/she is successful.

Actually the African and Asian kids succeed not because they ignore whites. They simply don't use racism as an excuse for not acheiving.

Eidted: Your perception was certainly prevalent 40 years ago, but times have changed man. With the exceptional case such as Jena, white kids leave black kids alone. That pressure to conform in negative ways comes from their black peers.

When a black professional cannot achieve/succeed, it's the fault of the black kids who beat him down in grammar school. Got it.

BTW, I seem to remember a Jena incident in PA about a week ago with the kids from 'redneck row' throwing garbage on the minority children. Thank Heavens there are only two isolated incidents. If there were more we might as a community have to decide to come together to address these issues.

Last time I checked LA was South. PA was North. I could be wrong, not that good with maps and all.

funny how people see what they want to see. Of course there are incidents of racism, but overwhelmingly the daily struggles for many black youth are not "big bad whitey", it is the other kids around them.

I didn't claim there was no racism, but the pervasive attitude among many people that their own communities bear no accountablity is ridiculous. When it comes to children attempting to rise above many of the obstacles in their paths, especially if they come from a poor environment, it is their peers that shun success and as a result many kids follow suit.

This is not a new phenomenon particular for blacks. I have seen it among the irish, the italians and other ethnic groups that have struggled in new countries. Poverty certainly plays a role.

I bet if you went to several of the middle class and upper class black communities around the country you would find great success with none of the "trying to be white" put downs.

This is more a class issue than a race issue, it just so happens that the "put down" is racially charged.
Edited for spelling

Nonwhite immigrant communities thrive when they retain their languages and customs, and keep an in-group dialog via separate media apparatus.

Maintaining that psychological distance helps them to avoid having to assume and internalize a caste role in a white-majority country. Under the circumstances, they'd have to be insane to give it up.

And so they don't. You may not hear them "blaming racism" in your hearing, but trust me on this: they're under no illusions about what life would be like without the fortress of their own culture to protect their morale.



The problem is that blacks have been America's pariah caste for hundreds of years, and have already made all the various psychological adaptations that go along with the role. But I wonder whether it would still be feasible for blacks to try something similar to what the immigrants do in claiming a new psychological freedom for themselves as a group.


It would be an interesting project.

That worked out well.

We weren't doing too bad in New Orleans until TPTB decided to throw the freeway down Claiborne St.

Black culture did not have the benefit of retaining their tribal affiliation as they were systemically destroyed through conscious separation practices while their culture and spirituality were likewise nihilated. Other immigrant cultures, even the most persecuted, still had their cultural enclaves to find solace and support.

Still I think that it doesn't serve to play the blame game on racist society. That too, seems to serve no purpose, healing or progress.

... to destroy it.

What I'm saying -- and what you're carefully refusing to hear -- is that freedom begins when they manage to get you out of their heads, out of their classrooms, and out from under their skin. You're not good for them.


The only way they will ever be able to meet you on an equal footing is to start from a position of autonomy. And the only way to establish that autonomy is to stand up and claim it, whether you like it or not. It will not be possible to shed the habits of their caste otherwise.

When did I become the representation of their boogie man? See that is what I am talking about. Where are people giving their power away to? As long as the insistence is upon "white racism" as the reason for failure, it will continue to be so.


So you are advocating for a segregationist position?

"As long as the insistence is upon "white racism" as the reason for failure, it will continue to be so."

Could you explain that please?

I am not denying that, but as long as the focus for every failure of a particular group is upon that instead of what that community can do in spite of racism, success will be difficult. Black leaders of the past talked about the dangers of falling into continual blaming as a trap. It offers no hope and is disempowering.

The reason for the problems in the black community is because of racism. Blaming them for not overcoming it just sounds like blaming the victim to me.

and only reason for the problems in the black community? Wow.

It isn't about blame it is about accountability. Sure racism is part of the problem but if you are trying to tell me that the individual and the group do not have any accountability to themselves and each other, you have just sold them down the river and have made them utterly powerless. That is the opposite of the speech of King, Malcolm X, Dubois, Garvey. Ultimately, they spoke of black empowerment in spite of racism.

I am not talking about the right wing "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" accountability (which is blame), but rather the psychological accountability that propels people past the struggles of life.

The alternative would be that somehow black people are inferior.

And because I'm not a racist, I reject that idea.

"Sure racism is part of the problem but if you are trying to tell me that the individual and the group do not have any accountability to themselves and each other, you have just sold them down the river and have made them utterly powerless."

No, I'm just placing the blame where it lies.

"That is the opposite of the speech of King, Malcolm X, Dubois, Garvey."

Yeah, this gets back to the Bill Cosby thing. Because some black guy says something, that gives white guys the right to say something racist.

"I am not talking about the right wing "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" accountability (which is blame), but rather the psychological accountability that propels people past the struggles of life."

What's the difference?

talk about projection.

You are seeing the black community as inferior by putting the entirity of blame on racism instead of seeing the black community with the tremendous strenghts and power it does have instead of as powerless.

So you are saying the black leaders I mentioned should be dismissed? The greatest black leaders in history? Wow.

Every person who has been in the minority sub class, the victim of racism or sexism or any other oppressive ism has a choice. One, to blame every failure in their life on that ism and remain powerless or to maintain their integrity and their true personal power in the face of it.

Any person who has faced adversity has had the same choice, to despair or transcend their scenario be they a battered woman, an addict, a victim of persecution etc.

Your approach supports that despair, their powerlessness and people like you contribute to their suffering. Sad thing is you are totally unaware of it.

"You are seeing the black community as inferior by putting the entirity of blame on racism instead of seeing the black community with the tremendous strenghts and power it does have instead of as powerless."

I am seeing the black community as equal to every other community, and the reason for any troubles comes from outside.

"So you are saying the black leaders I mentioned should be dismissed? The greatest black leaders in history? Wow."

I'm saying white people who spew racist crap just because Cosby talks about it should be dismissed. Yes. So should lame strawmen.

"Every person who has been in the minority sub class, the victim of racism or sexism or any other oppressive ism has a choice. One, to blame every failure in their life on that ism and remain powerless or to maintain their integrity and their true personal power in the face of it."

What sort of self help mumbo jumbo is this?

"Any person who has faced adversity has had the same choice, to despair or transcend their scenario be they a battered woman, an addict, a victim of persecution etc."

You don't blame the battered wife as causing her own abuse. Well, maybe you do. I don't.

"Your approach supports that despair, their powerlessness and people like you contribute to their suffering. Sad thing is you are totally unaware of it."

Nah, I think racists are the problem.

I see problems as a series of complex interrelationships involving the individual the group and society. YOu see a black or white, all or none, blame game. Good luck

Sees to me you're just trying to blame black people for their problems.

I have said, ad nauseum, that RACISM exists and we must continue to address the societal issues that affect people, but there is also personal and group accountability for one's lot in life in spite of the societal problems.

You on the other hand want to make no one accountable for their personal situation because of a societal problem.

That is a slap in the face to anyone who, in facing racism or any other restrictive societal force, strove to acheive a better life.

Incredibly sad.

"You on the other hand want to make no one accountable for their personal situation because of a societal problem."

It's a societal problem, why would I make individuals acountable?

What is it do you think that black people do wrong and holds them back?

"That is a slap in the face to anyone who, in facing racism or any other restrictive societal force, strove to acheive a better life."

I think it's a slap in the face to tell the black community that the reason they don't have more successes is because of something they're doing wrong.

Do me a favor...simply educate yourself.

Read the great black leaders, come back and tell me whose line of thinking they subscribed to..yours or mine.

They understood the nature of struggle. They also understood that society was not perfect or the way they desired it to be but that did not stop them, nor did they lay every problem they had at the feet of white america. They understood the need for individual and group involvement and accountability.


"What is it do you think that black people do wrong and holds them back?"
The simple act of saying that they are not or can never be successful because of racism is a start.

More akin to the article above, it isn't white america who keeps black kids from acheiving, it is often their own communities who have internalized the oppressor and oppress their own.

Do a smattering of research and tell me that the cause of all violence, drug sales and addiction, gang warfare, and suffering is racism without the particpation of the individuals and groups in those communities.

Again with the strawmen.

"Do a smattering of research and tell me that the cause of all violence, drug sales and addiction, gang warfare, and suffering is racism without the particpation of the individuals and groups in those communities."

The cause of those things is racism. Er, that is, blaming black people for them is racism.

Take drugs for instance, since you brought it up. White people do just as much drugs as black people do. Makes sense, drug addiction is chemical, it doesn't give a shit about skin color. Yet drugs are considered a black problem. Again, racism.

the way you want to see them. You asked me to give you an example and I gave you an example of the most fundamental design...cognition. What people believe will determine what they feel and how they act... If a person or group think is that "I cannot succed due to racism" then they will filter every failure and experience through that simple and primary belief system. It is not a straw man, it is psychology 101 bud.

The cause of violence, drug sales and use, gang warfare and suffering is not racism as they also exist in many cultures, hence the responsibility of those cultures and groups to deal with such problems in their community. They may have had a genesis with slavery, but they have taken on a life of their own and individuals and groups are responsible are accountable. Blaming it all on racism is like saying all the problems of the Irish are due to 700 years of English domination... utter and total bullshit.

I never said drug addiction was a black issue, you did. I am able to see things at a level of complexity. YOu show no depth, no complexity and see the intracacies of life as simple black and white, all or none thinking.

I am done with you...You offer nothing to the conversation.

arguer.. (entertaining though). Your posts have been the most enlightening in this entire thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2065545&mesg_id=2067858

There are a couple of ways in which these two threads intersect.

Q.E.D.

This is what I've been saying all along. Served up unexpectedly in one tidy package with a big-ass bow.


Trekbiker, who so eagerly eats up your blacks-must-stop-blaming-racism and-start-taking-responsibility-for-their-problems spiel is the guy I was telling you about. The one who anticipates the day in the near future when science will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that blacks are inherently inferior in intellect.



Racists are racists. Any narrative that focuses on blaming blacks and exonerating whites will appeal to them, even mutually exclusive narratives.

When I asked you what was holding black people back, you responded with drugs, among other racist stereotypes.

"Blaming it all on racism is like saying all the problems of the Irish are due to 700 years of English domination... utter and total bullshit."

So what do you think the is the problem with Irish people?

... in the future.

So you are advocating for a segregationist position?

On the contrary. The internalization of the black caste role is one of the strongest enforcers of the current de facto segregation.

and what you are saying is that it is the responsibility of the black community to shed that "black caste role", right?

Do you, like bornagainfooligan, hold to the moronic belief that the black community should accept no accountability for their current struggles and instead blame racism 100%.

Bornagainhooligan is right about that.

For example, here's something from a discussion today on DU:



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2065545&mesg_id=2067858


Well, there are a lot of people out there who think like that, and they're really not that interested in changing their minds. If they were, they wouldn't be making such extravagant claims on the basis of some presumed future body of evidence in the first place.

Right now, as we speak, there are people like this "trekbiker" who have the power to hire, fire, and promote. They are out there right now, deciding who is to be accepted at which school and who is to be rejected; who is to be arrested and who is to be let off with a warning; whose kids are to be taken away and put in a group home and whose family is to be given services so that they can remain together. They even decide whose neighborhood will be allowed to remain and whose neighborhood will be urban-renewalled out of existence. The power they wield is real, and the lives that these little tyrants fuck up beyond repair are real, too.


Black America will never make headway til it has freed itself from these people.

question the reality of what I have read, wrote and responded to as I have been repeatedly been labeled that which I am not.

I have never questioned institutional racism's existence, nor have I ever minimized the struggle against it. I have simply pointed out that the internalization of racism is perpetuated by the black community on the black community and that white racism is not behind every failure or missed opportunity. When other black kids beat up, ignore, bully or isolate another black kid cause they are striving to escape some of the problems of the community through education, it cannot be left solely at the doorstep of racism. The community and the individuals involved in keeping that young person down are primarily responsible for their actions.

It is the acknowledgement that beyond simply blaming racism, every individual and collective are accountable for their lives, their community and the larger society... Hell that is a African tribal concept.

You have made this the basis of what you are saying to me and we are actually saying the same thing.
"black america will never make headway til it has freed itself from these people" is not different than me saying that buying into the "racism exists therefore we are powerless" belief system that I am talking about. The psychological change from the blame game to the acceptance of the way things are (regardless of whether you like it or not)and the empowerment that goes along with doing what you can to change it.

There is no special group that gets a pass from being accountable regardless of how much they have suffered. Delve deep enough into history and genocide, cultural annihilation, and racism have occurred throughout history. I struggle with groups that think they have a right to not be accountable simply because they belong to a disenfranchised group.

Am I saying that racism isn't still alive and well in America, hell no, and I think we need to fight it at every front. But, unlike Bornagainhooligan, I refuse to say that individuals and the group they belong to have no accountabliltiy to change their lives in spite of this racism as that is a psychologically dangerous position to be in.

If white kids study, they're derided as being nerds. I think there've been polls indicating african americans place a higher value on education than white people. There's no reason to blame black kids for the lack of education in black kids.

I was a bookworm in high school, and I didn't have many friends either. I was so out of the loop. But, I knew that education would have a greater lasting effect than high school popularity, and I was right. Once I put the books away, I had lots of friends.

racism and povery" card and he is wrong.

And if suburban white kids study too much, they're 'nerds' or 'geeks'.

Etc., etc., etc.

that peer pressure to not better oneself knows no ethnic boundaries, I would agree. This particular phenomenon just happens to have a racial charged label "trying to be white".

Interesting.

and others to move on from this criticism and start offering constructive solutions. Continually slamming the black community as a whole is not going to do anything positive imo. Same with harping on absentee black dads etc. Just about everyone agrees on what the problems are. We need solutions. Shouting out the problem over and over isn't going to cut it.

Cosby may well be a very disgruntled man angry at his own community but pointing out and criticizing his community is not an agreed upon concensus, especially people in the community. The focus is still so very much on the perceived "other" that is keeping them down.

Constantly hitting people over the head about their shortcomings is often counterproductive. Particularly coming form someone who has had a lot of show biz success and seemingly is pretty far removed from the experiences of the people he is criticizing. Yes he is black like them but that is about it.

I agree as it doesn't seem to be working.

So I guess the question is... How do you help your own group/people/tribe without slamming them into the ground (a la Cosby) or totally disempower them by putting all the focus on racism as the boogie man?

and a member of the National Honor Society.A real genius.My friend works 2 jobs to give her daughter every opportunity.Her daughter has a TREMENDOUS amount of peer pressure placed upon her in (Texas) public school.I could never understand that.Fortunately,her daughter is smart enough to rise above that bullshit.

"you talk like a white boy", I would be rich.

while we were in elementry...My little sister and I Black Americans came back to live with my Grandmother in Wichita Kansas....two little black girls who spoke proper English and with a British Accent....we never got in trouble and we recieved good grades....So we were made fun by other Black Americans......oreo's, we talked white...we sounded cute and we followed the rules...

We moved to San Antonio Texas for Junior High and High School...that was even worse....we continued to get good grades, I was an athlete...my sister was in the band.. yep..you guessed it we were made fun of for sounding white or using certain words or phrases that were about the 3rd grade level.....

I went to College, my sister went in the military (got out right before the war started - Thank God for miracles) she finished her degree...

Where are those folks that made fun of us...30 years later...still doing the same shit, in the same neighborhoods.

I like others thank God my parents pushed us not use slang...and to study....our lives have been good.

Until all schools, parents, athletics push to make it acceptable to be intelligent, get good gradesand it's okay to speak proper English...then we will see change.

don't seem to have a lingo that's all their own. Not positive that that's the case, but that's how it seems.

are are facinating....I would like to visit England again. Very good childhood memories.

I like Christopher Eccleston's accent. :)

you have a very good post that is articulating a lot of the issues. yes we are seeing it with our black community in the schools. this touches more on the black male. not so much the black female, though i am sure it is there. but what i am seeing is it is hitting all males in schools. the males reject learning and being a academically minded stupid more than i have ever seen in the past. stupid is honored and intellectual is rejected. it is a mass problem in our males at the middle school level whereas the females are more expected and respected if they apply themselves academically.

I have a galactically wonderful friend who is a Black woman.

She was at work in a restaurant some months ago, and a Black man she had known in high school years ago came through the door. They chatted, she finished work, and they bellied up to the bar for a beer or three.

Somewhere along the line, the gentleman popped a neuron or something.

And accused my friend of "Not being Black enough," followed by "You're just not really Black at all, period."

Why?

She doesn't have children...and when she and I hashed this bedlam out later that night, she remembered him not only dogging her for not having any kids, but for not having kids by more than one man, i.e. like another great friend of mine, a Black man, who has five kids by three women. He takes care of them all and is as happy as a clam.

As for me? This Dorky White Man (With Oak Leaf Clusters) must have missed a memo. "Not Black enough" because she had no kids at age 25? Hell of an insult to drop on someone...especially her. I think the gentleman in question might have left her place of work one testicle short of a full bundle. ;)

ignorance that is perpetuated by rap....misinformation...well just plain stupidty.....I am betting that your friend has some black friends but most if not all of her friends in her social life are other cultures...

Yep...not surprised at all.

How many times will this little piece of stupidity be trotted out by DUers who really really really "aren't" racists? How many times will DU know-nothings hide behind Bill Cosby's blackness to utter something they've been cuddling in secret for years?

Will it never fucking end?

who shared his personal experience on a native reservation, is a closet racist?
What are you saying, that it's a taboo subject that people aren't supposed to discuss at all?

insulting. Admittedly there are idiots in all communities, but a blanket assumption that blacks cannot achieve because their culture does not respect education...This is past ridiculous. Trotting out all the Bill Cosbys in the world does not make that assumption less racist.

And certainly, this thread is not talking only about blacks.
However, point taken about Bill Cosby.

That they're being total fucking racists eludes them, on account of the "seriousness." Needless to say, anyone who knows anything about education can show you the same phenomenon happening across ethnic lines for the last 150 years, at least. That it is suddenly a "crisis" says more about the bloviator than the phenomenon, to be sure.

Never fails. When blacks suffer by comparison to whites, conservatives harp on it, and they even congratulate themselves for being "brave" enough to say bad things about blacks. But whenever blacks benefit from a comparison to whites -- such as in studies on the prevalence of child molestation, for instance -- then they're careful NOT to racialize that issue.

Nicely done. Indeed.

What you are talking about does not just happen in minority groups. It happens in all groups; however, it seems that it only gets attention when it happens in minority groups. There are many white people who do and have done all the things you talked about in your post. I am not saying that our society should accept negatives, but I do not think their should be an effort to make out like only minorities are doing these things.

In addition, the "trying to be white" thing never happend to me. When I read well and was able to read large number it impressed my black classmates. It seemed that many of the black students were happy when other black kids were or seemed to be smart. I realize the "trying to be white" thing happens, but I do think it may be at least a little overblown.

firstly, he has socioeconomic problems mixed up with race problems.

second, he wants to believe that in every case personal responsibility will trump institutionalized racism and poverty.

for intellectual pursuits (as accused by fellow Black youths). I think its a difference worth noting.

It is not betrayal, but disenfranchisement. You don't belong to the club anymore.

Many groups have social expectations, some positive, some negative. Nothing unique to African-Americans about it.

I was just watching some WW2 documentary, how a Japanese soldier was excepted to fight to the death, and anyone who surrendered was therefore a coward and deserved no regard. The positive role in that culture at that time was suicide, regarded as an honor.

But even in your example of Japanese soldier, they weren't called white because of their cowardice -- they were just shameful Japanese cowards.

they are called "acting white" which could just be the same as "acting a coward" or acting not-one-of-us. Nothing unique about it.

...not of one's character (or expected character).

Race is one identifier among many that defines groups, and is no more significant than any other. One could substitute religion (real Christians believe in the rapture) or nationality (real Americans support Bush) or many other defining characteristics (short people have no reason to live, as Randy Newman said).

It is not seen as a betrayal of the race either; it means that one is choosing to opt out of that race, and not be a member. There is no basic betrayal message.

FWIW: Here's a nice fictionalized account that takes place all the time in real life.

Fair warning for foul language.
School Daze http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNOfAFUT4xU

What exactly is your level of expertise?

...half Black and half White (mostly).

We struggle to get and keep young Black males in school and this phenom is one of the reasons. The students who remain in school tell us they are accused of acting white by noncollege peers and family.

Peer group support and expectations is a powerful motivation to go to and stay in college for all people of all groups, but with Black students there is this extra issue of acting white and betraying who they are.

I'm sure it doesn't happen to all but its a reality for many who remain close to people who didn't go to college.

many in our community left New Orleans to make a better life usually out West. I mention New Orleans because we have this distinct 'dialect', not Southern twang, not ebonics, just different. When some came back to visit, some of our adults would make fun of them (behind their backs of course). They said they came home sounding like sissies and they even taught their children to sound like sissies.

We kids would laugh at our adults who had the nerve to make fun of someone else's speech pattern. Most of our parents needed an interpreter just so others could understand their 'English'.

I guess in todays lingo the 'sound like sissies' would be replaced with 'acting white'.

I can only speak for my community and this is not the case.

deleted story....someone might get in trouble for relaying that story to me.

sorry.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0420051_bill_cosby_1.html

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_5212749,00.html


Any celebrity can get stung with one false accusation, or maybe even two. But take a dozen such accusations of sexual assaults -- some of the testimony concerning incidents alleged to have occurred too long ago for the women who've come forward to be able to sue for money or press charges -- and I begin to wonder whether he's not just another conservative whose need to shame and punish others springs from his inability to control his own behavior.


Cosby gets a free pass on this stuff because he says what the right wants to hear. They'll accept a-n-y-thing from anybody who'll help them stick it to the blacks.

I was "playing goy".

Didnt help that I was blonde.

and it amounts to minorities and women learning to oppress themselves.

Self-oppression gives the illusion of being in control. It offers the promise that, maybe, it will appease the real oppressor so that maybe he won't oppress you worse himself. You can find self-oppression alive and well and going strong among any oppressed group.

But self-oppression doesn't give anyone control or safety. Only genuine resistance -- which includes doing the right things for oneself personally -- actually grants power and security.

The reality is that every time blacks have taken their community in hand and begun to make their own way forward, whites -- or rather, a government representing them and consisting mostly of them -- have charged in, grabbed everything, bulldozed it, and built a new freeway to the suburbs on top of the remains. Or imposed some equivalent intervention. It must be damn near impossible to make headway under those conditions.


The thing to remember is that all this harping about black dysfunction and black poverty usually comes from those whites who actually wouldn't have things any other way. Far from sincerely looking forward to the rise of black America, they've always been the first to feel threatened by any sign of black prosperity and black autonomy. (And I'm actually talking about both liberals and conservatives here – there are lots of people with a vested interest in keeping everyone in their “place”.)

You gotta do what they want you to do, what they expect you to do. If you try to climb out of the hole, they will try to pull you down.

This has been true forever. I'm a Latino who was raised most of his life by a dirt poor single mother in the worst neighbourhood in Canada. The number of people I had to shut out of my head to get out of that hell hole was extreme. Once I climbed out, I was pegged by my peers as an egghead.

Once I started getting respect for getting somewhere, I decided I wanted to strengthen my body as much as my mind. Again I met resistance...I was pegged as an intellectual, so I should have stayed as an intellectual...no need for me to work out.

You improve yourself, you make others look bad and they resent you.

Fuck them all.

Repressed by white people, they understantably do not what to become their oppressors. So they reject white European culture.

But, white European culture has created things like organized education, corporations, economic theory, industry, transportation, and business. All that good stuff. So, if you reject too much white European culture, you don't get educated and won't do well in the labor market.

:wow:

... of the Mediterranean Basin, than descendants of the people who built those advanced cultures.


The descendants of African slaves have just as much right to the achievements of the ancient world and everything later built upon them as any Norwegian has.

Hilarious but makes some serious points.