If it's not a totalitarian, fascist, police state...

What is your definition of Tyranny?

"...the loveliest trick of the Devil is to persuade you that he does not exist!" The Generous Gambler

Tyranny. It's a quaint word. So quaint as to be almost anachronistic. We hardly ever use it anymore other than to refer to some tyrant of a boss or in arguments with a significant other who is pissing us off no end. But really, it's such a quaint word. Hardly carries any weight or threat. Relegated to history books and a few dusty documents stored in historical archives and the occasional philosophical debate about history.



What the author of the Declaration of Independence named Tyranny, in our modern lexicon is discarded in the dustbin of historical meaning like so many silly, anachronistic lessons of "Aesop's" and "Grimm's" fairy tales. Tyranny, it's once mighty claims equated with "death, desolation", "cruelty" and "barbarous ages" has gone the way of "cool cat" and "bobby-soxer", "daddy-o", "right on" and "bitchin' man". It's hardly used at all other than a token appearance in political diatribes arguing against the "tyranny of the majority", if you're in the minority; or the "tyranny of the minority", if you're in the majority; with nary a hint the speaker is aware of the irony inherent in their words. When it is used, it rarely brings to mind such brutal images as those envisioned by our ancestors. Their warnings nullified and lost; its horrible specter reduced and sanitized to bed-time stories of daring-do and legendary tales in which any child in American can become president fighting the ever diminishing specter of tyranny.

Our modern day bogeymen and their mass murders, genocide and Holocaust are of such magnitude and imagery as to be incomparable with any piddling, antiquated notions of simple, petty tyrants whose atrocities fade into the foggy mists of the past; replaced in our minds by modern day acts that are far too horrific to be confined to the incomparably mild and quaint definitions of Tyranny:



We've all seen the "is it fascism yet?" and "it's a police state!" threads. I wrote one myself.

The problem is, fascism, totalitarianism and police state are modern word inventions with modern baggage that travels with their respective definitions; they have limited historical scope. They are anchored to a specific historical context and time. They have very distinct images which come into our minds as we read the words. They have weight. They have substance. They are specific. They conjure up images of such barbarity and cruelty as to be almost beyond the reach of normal, modern human imagination.

Fascism brings images of the Holocaust, concentration camps, gas chambers, walking skeletons and piles of skeletal, human looking remains dumped in ditches. It brings to mind pictures of children used in medical experiments. It brings to mind the "Final Solution", brown-shirts, Nazi salutes, Kristalnacht and Jewish ghettos. It brings to mind such horror and revulsion on a scale which the modern world has rarely seen. And it obscures the small, seemingly insignificant steps taken to achieve such scale.

Police state is another modern invention brought to us by enhanced technology and more brutal ways of killing. It brings to mind midnight raids on innocent families, children screaming in fear and horror as a parent is spirited away to some gulag never to be seen or heard from again. It brings to mind military tribunals and neighbors shot in the street in front of horrified but sufficiently cowed friends and family. It brings to mind black shirts and storm troopers marching down main street and train stops during which all are demanded to present their papers as proof they have permission to travel from city to burgh. And in our horror of such images it helps us to forget the creeping legalities which the populace approved to insure their safety.

In a totalitarian state we see images of dictators and despots traveling with military force from city to town in impressive shows of military might. Throngs of people cheering a leader once embraced as the chosen savior of the masses. A leader now secretly despised and feared deep in those same once glad hearts, fearful that the smallest grimace or the most innocuously spoken word will be all the evidence needed to detain and imprison a person and destroy their family; the state-run media ridiculing and naming as guilty or guilty by association all those persons who do not smile in the state-approved way. All the while wondering how they got from punishing the criminals and the ne'er-do-wells to being suspect and criminal themselves.

We admonish one another that "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" and are smacked down since we have no brown shirts or black shirts or soldier thugs walking our streets ¹. We look for swastikas and yellow Stars of David as proof of an encroaching fascist bogeyman and anything less is deemed hardly worthy of concern. We demand an exact match to the parallels in history as though the Tyrants haven't learned their lessons from history as well.

We tsk-tsk and scream outrage at reports nationwide of local law enforcement personnel busting into homes macing toddlers and killing a 92 year old woman but they wear no swastika or blackshirt so some will apologize that they are just doing their jobs or it's just a few bad apples. We read stories of torture and assuage our fears that it happens only on foreign soil and only to foreign people ² and assure ourselves it's not the thousands or millions of a real fascism or a totalitarian police state. How many deaths are in a fascism? All at once? Over a period of time? Do we count all the deaths or only Americans? Do prisoners count? Do pResidentially decreed enemy combatants?

We whoop and holler in appreciation as dangerous criminals are caught and imprisoned or put to death accepting at face value the truth as reported by our objective media ³ which, much to our relief, have yet to be shut-down by armed soldiers. We read stories of internet access blocked and/or monitored by governments in other countries secure in the knowledge that our government would never monitor our internet use ⁴ or in any way attempt to limit or block ⁵ our use of the internet. We read about 1200 Muslim and Middle Eastern men rounded up in the months following 9/11 and rest secure in the knowledge that none were from my neighborhood and so must have been deserving of such inquest. We read about a presidential candidate being "swift boated" and a 12 year old boy being threatened for speaking out and one of our own harassed until death and note that at least there are no brown-shirted thugs creating havoc and mayhem in our neighborhoods. We offer our posts on the internet as proof that we are still allowed free speech ⁶ and that our government doesn't silence critics or dissenters ⁷ and surely it doesn't kill them ⁸.

We forgot Tyranny for the sake of its modern counterparts. So, as we parse what is police state and what is fascism and what is totalitarianism and debate, argue and decide if what we face today is any of those, we can perhaps rest uneasily in the knowledge that the "loveliest trick" the Tyrants pulled was to convince us that Tyrants don't exist as we spend our days being "eternally vigilant" watching for the bogeyman who never comes.

And the Devil? Why he's sitting in the corner, a knowing smile on his rather nondescript, every-man face...and he laughs.

thanks for providing this perspective. K & R

us out of the words and into the actions.

Thank you.

no wiggle room, or very little left

presented. From recognition of action comes re-action and, hopefully, pro-active action.

and its close cousin, Authoritarian...

But expect to have some folks tell you that it truly is not that bad

I've seen them. They scare the bejesus outta me.

So, how far is the distance from "just following the rules" to "it's the law" to "just following orders" to actively turning in your neighbors, friends, family or co-workers to ...?

Another word that no one wants to use because of it's ties to McCarthyism, is unAmerican. Yet, almost every action by this present White House has been unAmerican.

You make a good point.

More words shoved into dustbins to hide their actions.

wearing a flag lapel pin or hoisting the flag in your yard does not excuse the innate anti-American nature of supporting someone who denigrates the Constitution. They may as well be raising the Jolly Roger.

You gave me an idea. I wish I could do graphics. I envision Bush ordering a new flag with one of his signing statements. The Jolly Roger's skull and bones would be superimposed over the star field on the American flag. I know it has been done with swastikas but the Jolly Roger would be different.

:rofl:

It's less about Hitler's ideology and more about raping and pillaging the treasury, and killing as many opponents as possible in the process.

Mark Twain designed such a flag during the Spanish-American war. I guess I'd better start combing my collection to find it.

I once saw it illustrated, but am having a hard time locating it. I'm working on getting more mobile and I'm getting down to my 'desert island' books I'm afraid.

"And as for a flag for the Philippine Province, it is easily managed. We can have a special one--our States do it: we can have just our usual flag, with the white stripes painted black and the stars replaced by the skull and cross-bones."

:kick:

The only quibble I'd add is that I think it's very important to remember that Fascism refers to government run by corporations.

That fits for the US, and is coming to fit for the world.

Just because they have gone about it in a more subtle way, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The dangers of corporatism MUST be faced!

Thanks for a fine post. :thumbsup:

:D

I figured if I tried to include the corporate angle, I'd be writing something closer to book length so opted for this "shorter" version. I do agree with you. There is a strong economic-slavery aspect oozing into our daily lives which many deny and/or excuse. I was thinking of adding drug testing and credit ratings used to keep some from employment or housing; but at least we're not making them wear yellow or pink badges. Then there's the bigoted ways in which our "war on drugs" is being perpetrated against only certain segments of society creating a specifically defined criminal class will profiting the owner and investor class. Uh, oh, I'm starting to go on and on. And I don't need to tell you.

They have the sublety well-honed by now.

We're coming very slowly to a boil... and it's working.

Just because there aren't the same signs as before, it's slipping under the radar.

And, we're still being good Germans.

sigh...

Oh, to hell with it, go for the book!

:hi: :applause: :hi:

a few more DU posts of this length and I'll have a good sized pamphlet. :D

As Toby said to Sam in an episode of "West Wing" when asked why he was preaching to the choir and Toby responded, "that's how you get them to sing."

Someday I hope we'll all sing in the same key. LOL

Thank you, bobbolink.

:hi:

:-)

I use Lulu for me books

I'll keep you, er, posted (pun intended).

:D

and if you are not into doing covers yourself, they have a nice selection

I didn't know about the covers. Hmm, things that make me go, hmm.

:D

:hi:

I wish it didn't cost so much for us to be our own press!

Cost, as in both time and $$$.

Your work deserves to be read.

And reread.

Yes, ma'am. I'll get right on it. :D

:hi:

:rofl:

:rofl:

I laughed so hard I scared the dogs and they're running around the living room trying to find the "disturbance".

:rofl:

(rolling on the floor laughing out loud and scaring the cat)

Please extend my sincere apologies to the canines in question. ^_^

Oh, and BTW... I keep forgetting to mention it... I really love your sig line! It's so very true, and so painful.

I miss Erma!

:pals:

I have publshed through them several books.

Will send a couple once I am done with this one.

If you do not go for ISBN (which I'd not recommend for a panphlet) it is not that bad

Now the ISBN makes it expensive.

Oh and I forgot, send two copies to the copyright office with your pay... you need to register the copyright... it also goes into the Library of Congress

The financial angle may slow me down in the short run but I have a feeling you'll be hearing from me in the long run.

:D

I especially enjoyed that they both used humor to tell truth, but they didn't use the mean humor which sometimes is popular. Perhaps I'm too "white bread" but I just can't see humor in the pain of others.

Anyhoo, doggies are all calmed down now. :D

:pals:

a concept which they have called "creative destruction" where we tear down the old and build up the new. Obviously this has been much more difficult in Iraq than the neocons had anticipated, when the populace you are occupying, jackbooting and pilfering doesn't fully appreciate the effort.

In reading several contemporary accounts of the American rebellion, the similarities between then and now are disturbingly familiar.

:kick: & R

We don't have an absolute ruler.

Granted, there are a lot of fucked up things going on, and after another 8 years of repuke rule, I'd have little doubt that it's a fascist, tyrannical nation. However, at this present moment, it is not yet fascism and it is not yet tyranny.

If some important words have lost their meaning and their power, it is because people have tossed them around inappropriately, applying the terms to anything a politician does. Maybe now we'll realize why the repukes describe govt workers as "jack-booted thugs" and the govt as "oppressive nanny state". It was to make people ignore those who use Nazi allusions.

And please don't take this to mean I'm in complete disagreement with you. Your OP makes a number of important points and we do need to remain constantly vigilant to guard against tyranny. And we shouldn't let our semantical disagreements get in the way of stopping these abuses.

In fact, since the Democratic Congress came to power, we have seen an acceleration of the process.

The fact that our absolute ruler is a body, and not an individual, in no way diminishes it's rule.

Good point. Thank you.

:hi:

Take our entire system of govt, and it still doesn't add up to an absolute ruler

dominion over?

You didn't read the post, it was answered in notes 4, 5, and 6. Try again.
:kick:

I didn't ask you a question, You asked me what part of life the govt hasnt claimed dominion over, and I gave an answer, so I don't know why you expect me to go look for an answer to a question I did not ask

the U.S. disassembles under us.

I'm finished picking nits with you as you ignore the thesis of my OP. I'm trying to get people to see. You're trying to deny what's happening here based on a word with which you don't agree. We're obviously at cross-purposes.

Again, thanks for partially agreeing and helping to keep this thread kicked.

long ago.

And as far as picking nits, it was you who asked if this was tyranny. Don't get so upset just because someone answered in a way you disagree with. If you didn't want to discuss the definitions of words and how those definitions differ, then maybe YOU should not have brought it up. If your point is that these policies represent a threat and are immoral, then isnt that what you should say, and avoid the discussion of definitions? I was not the one who pushed this discussion in that direction.

So please, if you can, point out where I have denied any fact.

.posted in the wrong place

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the Dems and repubs are merely their agents...

It fits...

We have Post-Modern Fascism... The Corpo's ARE the government...

disagreeing.

Anything to please you

unnecesary

is the complicity of our media in undermining the newsworthiness of critical political and military developments. We are spoon-fed Pablum, when in all respects they should be reporting on the demise of Democracy's foundations.

to the same, very narrow point.
:kick:

I do not see it as one group of wealthy people who control the system to the extent that they can ensure that all money rises to them. I see groups of wealthy people who are as happy to steal from the rich as they are from the poor. After all, the wealthy is where the money is.

So what we have is groups of powerful people fighting each other for dominance, and not one group that can rest easy in its perch.

http://www.cjr.org/resources/">Here is a start.

They're not stealing from the rich they're stealing from us.

You obviously skipped the basics of economics.

And your link supports my hypothesis; It shows several powerful corporations fighting each other to be the most profitable

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Do you think that Apple doesn't want MS's market share?

couldn't care less about your willful ignorance.
:kick:

The fact they own shares in their competitors makes no difference. Apple and MS have product that compete head on, and neither is doing it to lose money

Draining the treasury in order to provide corporate welfare to corporate cronies is stealing from all of us. The recent case where Qwest is being penalized for following the law, while ATT is allowed to become a huge monopoly all over again while colluding with the NSA, is a case where government favoratism allows the rich to prey on other unfavored wealth.

You mentioned that you don't see one group of the wealthy dominating to the extent that they control the flow of money strictly to themselves.

Well, you won't see it happen in such an absolutist fashion under The New Totalitarianism, which I call BushPutinism after it's Founding Fathers here and in Russia.

However here are some examples of the strong (if not wholly 100% uniform) current of such wealthy people reinforcing and concentration strictly their wealthy circle of pals and contributors.

Again I say: Big Picture. Think not about the daily market fluctuations or the daily competitions within individual markets. They are not relevant to this discussion, as yesterday's local weather pattern has nothing to do with a discussion of Global Warming.

Having said that, some items (almost all of them still in force and most with tremendous uniform success in diverting funds) to ponder which do answer your initial query of wanting examples:


The War in Iraq
---343 tons of unmarked $100 bills totaling over 10 billion in cash sent to Iraq. Cash gone and at least half unaccounted for. Reports of soldiers and mercenaries playing football with packets of $100s
---The entire money hole that Halliburton is - no bid contracts and utter lack of accounting = a BIG skim for the pals
---Katrina Cleanup monies, NO still mostly destroyed, cash diverted and looted, Loyal Bushie coffers filling, like Halliburton, zero accountability equals lots o and LOTS of lost $$$$s.

Even if one assumes there is no stealing going on :rofl:, the fully legal aspects of this are equivalent to billions and billions of monies kicked to Bushie corporations only. ONLY. Look it up. All the evidence is right out there, as with most Bushie multiple felonies.

Do you need more examples? I've got more examples, PLENTY of examples. The benefits of living in the brief window between Liberty and Tyranny in the Information Age, when one can see much of the crimes going on, but no one seems able to prosecute no matter how much hard evidence is present (ahem, Gonzales, cough cough).

---The playpen of reduction and/or relaxing of environmental regulations has meant an across the board windfall for extractive companies, plus they get to REALLY scrimp on mine safety because Bushie regulators are :rofl:

---Perhaps the biggest overall Bushie theft and example of which you originally asked about is the price of oil & gas in the politically-unstable (and purposefully so) Bush-Occupied America. Profits for all Oil Co.'s out the roof. Look up Exxon's last few years of profitability and you will find a MASSIVE influx of money essentially directed by the Royal Bushies, purposely created by their policies, to the Loyal Bushie Oil barons.

Ok, enough. There's more, many more, but I grow weary. So, while you look for absolutisms that would be recognizable as the Old Style Tyranny, the New Style Tyranny achieves the same basic objects, just a little bit less totally and taking a little longer.

You asked. I answered. Look at the Big Picture, not the puny squabbles of two computer corporations.

Nowhere in this thread have I said any of the things you speak of are OK. I merely object to false descriptions of reality. The idea that this is all controlled by one small and powerful group only serves to discredit us while providing no benefit to us.

I do not believe the OP's is a false description of reality but a very accurate one.

Personally, I am tired of worrying about what will discredit me (unless I am doorknocking or phonecalling for Democratoc candidates or something) because it's getting too late in the game to do anything less.

If you truly agree with my previous post, then how can you say that the OP is falsely describing the sasme reality I just did in answer to your quey to greyhound?

Anyway, I am not looking for a flamewar or anything, but I see you taking a position contadictory to your first one because I cannot see how you could agree with what I said in the last post, but NOT agree with the OP or greyhound, too?

Just curious. :shrug:

thread. Thank you so very much.

In another thread, one of nadin's, you described to her a group of people whom you called (this is from memory so may be off a bit) the "sneer and smear assholes". I think they've increased their membership by one or two. :D Or maybe there are just those who like to be contrarian regardless of the topic?

Anyway, thank you for your valuable contributions to this thread and this topic.

:hi:

I only wish that you would do as well. Nowhere in this thread have I posted a personal attack. At no time have I questioned you character. I have assumed, from the very beginning, that you are sincere and well-intentioned. I am more than happy to discuss this in a respectful manner, even when we disagree.

Why can't you do the same?

Quite honestly, if I had to assess the results I would say I have probably done marginally better than someone arguing against Hitler from 1933-1937, but overall not that much different.

The stormy seas of denial, the brisk hot breeze of disinformation, misinformation and lies, which, even after corrected do not seem to sink in, among the general populace the Loyal Bushies, the Gullible Dupes and Frighetend Suckers are all legion. As we have seen, even people on our side do not seem to recognize the magnitude of what we face (though it is always important to remember that it is still possible that it is we who are wrong and things are not as bad as they seem). Just like it must have been in '33-'37 Germany.

Hey, at least I am in no physical danger...yet. Now THAT'S progress.

I am not going to bash cuke, though, and from what I have seen I do not personally place cuke in that aforementioned group... not at all. I am going to suggest that perhaps you two just got off on the wrong foot and maybe should just start over.

What I said is it's inaccurate to label it "tyranny". I agree with the description; I disagree with the label.

Is it really that important that I agree with your label? Since you like to look at the Big Picture, I have to ask - Isnt the important thing that we are all on the same side, and that we both want the same things - to end torture, illegal surveillance, infringements on our Consitutional rights, etc?

:toast:

and why it's just another entry on the list now. There is no interest in knowing, even assuming that it doesn't already. Willful ignorance or purposeful disruption, take your pick.

Ironically, the very point that Cerridwen made with this post, digitally proving her point.

Peace.

You've come up with a brilliant definition of end-time Capitalism...

End-Time Capitalism, the obvious, natural final destination of the capitalist system is "one group of wealthy people who control the system to the extent that they can ensure that all money rises to them"...and that all resources are controlled by them...

That's a FINE definition of tyranny too...

Ready for something different now???

But the rather kinder, gentler, sort where our choices are decided by the corporate hegemony. As We The People wake up it will turn more hard line.

As Dylan said, "There's a hard rain a commin."

-Hoot

the fact that some of us are still speaking at least somewhat freely does not change the essential nature of what is happening. to my mind, all it means is that they think so little of us that they can afford to let us vent.

plebes happy.

they despise and have contempt for.

And why not? Has any kind of majority raised a peep at the closing down of the American Experiment?

Nope, not even after seven years of the most in-your-face-we're-doing-it-and-what-are-you-going-to-do-about-it behavior by almost ALL the High Bushies and the Royals especially.

THIS is what I was trying to get at with my thread from the other day.

Nomenclature aside, the fact that America has changed, perhaps irrevocably, for the worse is undeniable.

Recommended.

For the recommend and for the kind words.

Perhaps your thread and mine and the others I'm seeing pop up around here will start to get through. Maybe all the different ways of saying much the same thing will start to "wake up" those who still think "It Can't Happen Here".

at this point

But lets continue to till at windmills

:D

There seem to be a few more tilting away, as well. Hopefully, we all have better "eyesight."

We got his first minion already.

I can hardly wait...

That's different from a totalitarian fascist state, but still incredibly dangerous.

By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

for what can happen in this country.

those were/are test cases.

and obvious example of what this (mis)administration is willing to let happen to U.S. citizens.

Iraq compounds the example by showing us to what level they'll go against those not of the U.S.

There are so many examples of which these are but two.

Thanks, datasuspect.

across the spectrum. Fascism rose on well done hyperbole coupled with nationalistic xenophobia. The bloody development of Stalin's totalitarian regime rose on the hyperbole of fear coupled with a fractured, yet powerful and byzantine, power structure. Police states are more up front in their hyperbole of 'national unity'. Disagree and you disappear or die. None have worked, of course.

I think I see your underlying point - the creeping loss of rights that we have taken for granted, eroded in a miasma of propaganda, which is in my view hyperbole.

The effective answer, I believe, is to shuck hyperbole, and address those losses point by point. District by district, state by state, election by election, bill by bill, vote by vote, person by person.

Thanks again. Your post got me to thinking.

thank you. You got me thinking

That is very much at the heart of my OP.

And you responding that my post got you thinking is precisely what I was hoping for. What I hope we all do. Think. Dig deep. Stay critical. Question everything.

Oh, and get a good night's sleep, eat well and stay as healthy as you (the collective you) are able; and don't forget to celebrate. It may be a long road.

:D

never have been, never will, I guess.

:hi:

(Stay well, too.)

:kick:

"I want it nooowwww!"

Quoted from the little brat in "The Chocolate Factory"

We must suffer for our convictions.

~~chortle~~

:hi:

:D

oh, that was so very bad....

:+

they want to divide and conquer...

"address those losses point by point. District by district, state by state, election by election, bill by bill, vote by vote, person by person." is exactly how they'd like to see you piss away your time...

Unless we can call Tyranny when we see it we cannot get mobilized.

The masters will win by dividing us into small groups quibbling about whether it's creeping Fascism, actual Fascism, Tyranny, Authoritarianism, Corporate Capitalism, etc. etc. --

it's ALL of those and they're winning...

Hyperbole is a figure of speech which is an exaggeration. Calling the current world situation, driven by the USAmerikan Empire's corporate capitalist masters a form of Tyranny is understatement not exaggeration...

Two of the three houses of the legislative branch are currently controlled by one party. The other party controls the executive branch, but that will change next year. There is absolutely nothing strange, unprecedented or unique about our current situation.

I love the U.S., and it is nothing like what the posters on this thread have said.

Obviously, we don't agree on this.

(yes yes yes, Bushler has said repeatedly "The US doesn't torture," but if you believe that, then I have some swampland in Lousiana to sell you)

Is that like the Old U.S., which I loved and will continue to love though it no longer exists.

I loved the Old USA enough to enlist. As I learned and read more of it, I loved it more. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are perhaps the greatest documents ever written by human beings, and the outpouring of political thought from all levels of society that went into their creation was perhaps the greatest in the world, as well.

But so very little of that exists, just hollow shells, that I must vehemently agree to disgree with you.

yes, yes, yes I know I have no fear of the 3am knock. How 'bout Jose Padilla? You could ask him, but he's a vegetable from sensory deprivation for three continuous years.

Oh yes, do I EVER agree to disagree with you, rob.

The one thing we agree on, though, is that American democracy (or our democratic-republic or whatever you want to call 1776-2000) is still a great hope of not just ourselves but the world.

And that is enough.

mr robcon doesn't concern itself with mere details...

he/she/it's a true believer...nose stuck in a poplar and unable to contemplate the forest...

A prime example of what we're up against...

Let's leave the dehumanization to the Bushies and the Nazis, where it belongs, please.

There is a difference between people of good faith who disagree and the Authoritarians and their followers, let's try ot remember that.

Big Business Party has just gotten the nod from the corporate capitalist master now that the A-team, the right-wing of the Big Business Party has crapped on the floor and everyone's noticed?

That's your idea of "democracy"???

"Two of the three houses of the legislative branch are currently controlled by one party."

Please don't edit that out. It is a priceless gem. I do wonder what you actually meant though.

But not to worry, as next year the War Party occupant of the White House, installed by the same corrupt practices that have installed at least the last two presidents, will have a big fat 'D' on her team jacket.

state...what then?

Do we overthrow the government? Whine some more? What? I am voting. I am writing. I make phone calls. I have already said that if you guys get up a load to take over the government...holler, I'll do my part. But what is the FUCKING POINT of all these five page long dissertations about tyranny? We get it. We live in a police state.

Now what?

Frustrating as hell, ain't it? :D

I don't think I argued for a police state so much as I said "look out" that something doesn't happen "over there" while you're watching for something else "over here". The reason I bothered with a "five page long dissertation" is because presenting different perspectives allows more people to understand what is being said. What "rings true" for one may not for another. I tell you this because you'll probably be subjected to many more "five page long dissertations" for some time to come.

In the meantime, we're having a discussion over here with some posters presenting ideas of what to do next.

Please, add any ideas you might have.

to stop it... we are not quite there yet... but we are close... very close

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2047547

and to the highest degree possible, secede from the dominant economic tyranny of corporate capitalism.

Starve the Beast.

This article should give you a good starting point...

http://www.sustainabletucson.org/top-10/

It's a discussion of steps toward "Sustainable Living". We are currently involved in organizing our neighborhood around these sustainablility principles.

These principles also carry the seeds of secession from the corporate capitalist economic system and it's EASIER than you might think. It doesn't even have to be done 100% to succeed.

It would take an amazingly small percentage of the population, a critical mass, to break the chains of this tyranny and put our feet back on the path of sustainable, humane and joyful living...


Some more food for thought:

SUSTAINABILITY

Sustainability means to integrate our social and economic lives into the environment in ways that tend to enhance or maintain rather than degrade or destroy the environment; it is a moral imperative to pass on our natural inheritance, not necessarily unchanged, but undiminished in its ability to meet the needs of future generations; and it entails finding, and staying within, the balance point amongst population, consumption, and waste assimilation so that watersheds and bioregions can maintain their ability to recharge and regenerate.

The latter aspect of sustainability is the core concept behind carrying capacity. Carrying capacity is both a measurable, and legally defensible, method that communities can use to effectively manage the unrestrained growth that is destroying quality of life.

Sustainability is not an environmental movement; it is a community movement. It is also important to become aware that growth and development are not equivalent. To develop means to improve; make better; to bring to a more advanced or effective state. If we're going to be building a sustainable future, we need the support of those whose expertise is in building. Our challenge is to provide them with a new set of blueprints to work from.

RELOCALIZATION

"Relocalization is a strategy that has developed in response to the environmental, social, political and economic ramifications of global over- reliance on cheap energy. Climate change, the erosion of community, wars for oil-rich land and the instability of the global economic system have resulted from our dependence on cheap non-renewable fossil fuel energy.

"Relocalization is a strategy, which aims to build societies based on the local production of food, energy and goods, and the local development of currency, governance and culture. The main goals of Relocalization are to increase community energy security, to strengthen local economies, and to dramatically improve environmental conditions and social equity. The aim of Relocalization is to develop exemplary community actions that can be used locally and as working models for other communities when the effects of energy decline become more intense.

"Relocalization is the re-claiming of our socio-cultural and economic systems so that each locality operates well within its regional ecological boundaries. Relocalization is a strategy that moves one step further than the strategy of Localization, which primarily aims to increase the local production of goods and services in order to fight the detrimental effects of globalization. Relocalization supports the production of local goods and services while also making a firm commitment to reducing consumption and improving environmental and social conditions. In this way, communities begin to develop a greater degree of economic self-reliance and stronger sense of community."

http://www.davecroteau4mayor.org/Issues.htm

Once most of us - all of us, not just tinfoiled blogbarian troglyodites, all of us, then we can start on the process of changing a reality we all agree exists.

This terminology is used by Naomi Wolf in her recent work. That is, we are undergoing a fascist shift.

Could you expand a bit on that, please? If you don't have time or inclination - 'tis all good. But, if you could I would much appreciate it.

:hi:

normals are established all the time, like arresting Padilla, and once those new normals are accepted, new ones are introduced

THis is done until you reach a tipping point where stoping the process becomes impossible and the society is succcesfuly closed

Our government was created to ensure FREEDOM FROM tyranny and an opportunity to BE EQUAL.

That's not our government, now.

Perhaps too many are more concerned with being Free to feel SAFE rather than Free.

I've not been on this planet a long time (relatively speaking), but I've noticed the most limiting and freedom reducing laws "We, the People" have supported have all had to do with wanting to feel safe; safe from harm, safe from attack, safe from debt (that worked well), SAFE. Add that to those who believe the "rule of gold" rather than the "Golden Rule" and we're in some interesting times; of the curse kind.

Should I post, yet another quote, from one of the founders of this country as it exists today? Yes, I think I will...



edit for link and quote

our government was created to ensure FREEDOM from tyranny and equal opportunity for white, male property owners.

No woman, blacks, native Americans or working stiffs allowed in the club...

They're much more subtle now. All of these groups can now appear to be "participating" by casting an occasional vote for the candidate slate selected, bought and paid for by White, Male, Big-Time Property Owners...

Wow, what progress :sarcasm:

We live in a tyrannical neo-fascist state blossoming into a full-fledged police state.

Some quotes of condensed relevance:

Really
the police try to protect
the banks - and everything else
is secondary
-- D.A. Levy, SUBURBAN MONASTERY DEATH POEM

Fascism is not defined by the number of its victims, but by the way it kills them.
-- Jean-Paul Sartre

A functioning police state needs no police.
-- William S. Burroughs

Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends; the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Annapolis Citizens, 1809

You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.
-- Malcolm X

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetuate it.
-- Martin Luther King Jr

In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is truly a revolutionary act.
-- George Orwell

If you assume that there's no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, there are opportunities to change things, there's a chance you may contribute to making a better world. That's your choice.
-- Noam Chomsky

The future depends on what we do in the present.
-- Mohandas K Gandhi

You must be the change you want to see in the world.
-- Mohandas K Gandhi

Now. Or never.
-- Henry David Thoreau

I wonder how many understand that. I wonder.

Thank you, davekriss.

Unfortunately. The question is do the cheerleaders know what part they are playing in that.

Those two words related?

hmmm......

I fear the answer is...

NO.

:(

the irony is so think you could cut it with a knife.

As the magician (call him whatever name you wish) draws our attention to his right hand, we miss the dagger in his left.

The deadliest game of misdirection and we're arguing over what to call it. Historical accuracy aside, "Nero fiddling while Rome is burning" keeps coming to my mind.

Anyway, thank you. It appears as though more are starting to "get it" and those who've known it for a while are starting to be heard.

It's exactly the same greasy-pole-sliding towards evil that we're so quick to overlook in this country.

Illegal domestic spying? Torture? Environmental collapse? ...B-b-but what's on TeeVee tonight?

Thanks again for the great analysis in the OP. Keep it up! :hi:

but no one will see, and no one will believe until it is too late

Just like the time before, and the time before, and the time before that...

I don't wish to be a downer, but that's how I see it. That is the REALITY. Even on DU, awareness of this is 33-40%, at best. Even now, when everything is just hanging out in plain sight.

Yeh, all we have to do is elect Hillary and everything will go back to the way it was.

:puke:

Yeah, I saw the bottom line of your sig line. There's still hope there. :D

At the risk of sounding too much like Pollyanna, even the small percentage of awareness you note is more than it was 20 or 30 years ago. I'll take that as a sign that there are people paying attention and word is getting out. Also, as "fond" as I am of DU, there are many more on the left (pick a degree of left-ness) than post to DU and there are many who read DU but don't post. And though I may get flamed for saying so, there are those on the right who see what is happening and dislike it as much as you and I. I truly think a parliamentary system would better represent the spectrums of political thought in our country; but that really is "pie in the sky" thinking, isn't it?

Unfortunately, it's taken people being forced from their comfort zones for many to "wake up" and notice that something is rotten in the state of the U.S. (I don't think the Bard will mind me paraphrasing him, do you? :D ). Some are still in their comfort zones and need even more proof. They still think the system works or at the very least is just broken and can be fixed. And some still benefit from it as it exists. I don't know if we'll ever get those people to see what happens to the rest of us or even care about what's happening.

In the meantime, it looks as though I've decided to keep putting words in front of peoples' faces on the off chance that they'll suddenly realize that the nagging discomfort in the back of their mind might be given some definition if they read just the right combination of words.

Oops, I went all waxing philosophical on your post. :D Thanks for the K & R.

Here's to more people opening their eyes.

smiled, and took a long draw on his cigar.

"I don't even have to pay people to do evil," He thought to himself. "It just comes so naturally..."

Is that a quote from somewhere, or original?

It's certainly, sadly, on target.

I've often noticed that the devil need do nothing but sit in his lawnchair and drink lemonaid...and the sum total of evil in the world would increase.

:kick:

I was taken with Frank Rich's article "Americans Have Become 'Good Germans'" and took a bit of exception to the degree that our 'good murkins' have been made so by an effort that spared no expense, and halted at no crime to make us this way.

I believe that something must be done to ensure that the press never again fails us, and the first move is probably to re-instate the fairness doctrine.

But it cannot stop there. There must be the will to both encourage responsible journalism, and to dissuade irresponsible reportage. I think you start by re-opening the Novak matter. And then on the other side, you take down the goons responsible for the Rather debacle.

Regarding the matter of corporatist coups, a re-thinking of the military and its role in the world, an outright banning of private security (which has been needed for a while now) from Baghdad to the local mall.

Regarding Naomi and crisis capitalism, Enron, Halliburton, several things are obvious. But it boils down to this-- a big ass axe is needed hanging above murica's boardrooms.

And taxation of the top 1% needs to reflect their complicity in the failure of democracy in the US.


Again, great work.

and they should get a chance.
:kick: