I'd like to suggest another POV re: immigration, Canadian & Mexican borders. *Open* borders for all,

coupled with

> some legal status for immigrant and migrant workers,

> a living minimum wage for people working 20 hours a week or more for companies larger than 'mom & pop' concerns,

> legit Social Security numbers and withholding for immigrant/migrant workers,

> drivers licenses conditional on existing state laws,

> reasonable background checks for criminal records, and

> a reasonable process toward full citizenship status for those that wish to settle here.

A wall on our southern border will not stop illegal immigration. It will drive more of it to predatory 'coyotes' with vans and trucks. Or drive more foot migrants into Sonoran treks, that have claimed many lives.

A wall will not stop terrorism. 9/11 was perpetrated by immigrants here on legal visas.

A wall will not stop cocaine trafficking. Immigrant/migrant workers aren't major drug traffickers. Cocaine doesn't come across the border on foot. It comes in trucks, and boats and planes.

Terrorism and drug trafficking are best addressed as a targeted law enforcement issue, at the source(s), in the process and in the execution.

I realize this proposal would be held to many negotiations across the political, labor and legal spectrum. And some compromises would be assumed.

My point is that closing the border won't work. For us, for Canada or for Mexico.

built America to be the strong, respected nation it always was until Bush plopped his sorry butt down in our White House.

Is there a reason why those who want to come to this fine Nation can't become legal via the course of citizenship first?
Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that American citizens are feeling as though their country is being stolen, sold, and given away?
This whole "equal rights for non-citizens' makes me want to weep, truely, for my America.
Is there an understanding of 'honor' among the non-citizens, in being called an Americaqn?
I do not witness that anywhere among the illegal communities.

No pride and no honor spoken of in the words of those who come here illegally. I do, hear, however a lot of demands without any show of respect for what my America is.

I would simply like to know wat this citizenship means to the illegals.

tks anyway.

Because the legal course for citizenship is long, and bureaucratic, and inefficent, and there's a good chance they won't get in regardless of how good they are and meanwhile their kids are going hungry?

"Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that American citizens are feeling as though their country is being stolen, sold, and given away?"

Because I'm an American citizen, and I don't feel that way at all.

"This whole "equal rights for non-citizens' makes me want to weep, truely, for my America."

As an American, I think equal rights are human rights, and inalienable. Not some kind of weird reward I get for being bored here.

"Is there an understanding of 'honor' among the non-citizens, in being called an American?"

I find illegal immigrants are just as American as legal citizens. Usually moreso because of the struggles they went through to get here, they're realizing the American dream. And more honorable, for the same reason.

"No pride and no honor spoken of in the words of those who come here illegally. "

More pride and honor than among the people who tell them to go home.

"I do, hear, however a lot of demands without any show of respect for what my America is."

You know, that's exactly what I think of the anti-immigrant people.

That Nationalistic fervor is built on lies and hypocrisy.
I think we can do better.

I see a lot of desire among the undocumented, illegal immigrants to become legal Americans - and a lot of fear.

Do they know our history as well as we do? Probably not. Do we know theirs? Probably not.

Pride and honor are well worth noting. I would think that an immigrant family that became productive citizens of the country, as many would choose, would have some justifiable pride at the accomplishment.

Check out the Ellis Island records for a run down on immigrants who knew nothing about our country, or its language, for that matter, yet helped build a vibrant, open nation.

Thanks.

brought into this country under legal conditions, and as in the case of my ancestor...if you were ill, you were sent back home on the boat. It took another 7 years for the families to rejoin. Money was pooled to bring the rest here. In many cases families were separated permanently, because of restrictions at the site of entrance when they arrived in the US.

Hardships were a great part of immigrants then also, no princess cruise line brought them here and there were no Social Service offices waiting to provide.

I hear your rant about Ellis immigrants, but they weren't sneaking in the US demanding the country bow to their ethnicity over all others.

Just open all the borders ..yes its a thought for the future, but it is difficult to see my America disappearing on a daily basis, given away to those who do not care to or need to respect this country for what is HAS given immigrants. I expect to hear the same argument from the same posters here whenever this subject is brought up.
My issue is with those who come here illegally, have no desire to become citizens., demand rights of citizens, and expect the core of this country to embrace your argument for pity upon those who struggle to get here illegally.
Maybe you could address issues of my concern without giving me the same old, 'well your ancestors came here' argument
It was handled quite differently than the illegals of today. Those who came through Ellis did not enter illegally.

Maybe Canada is a good idea. After all, in 10 yrs or so the US will look just like Mexico does today. Our govt is run by thugs, corrupt as can be, and thanks to Bush, the middle class of America will disappear as well.
I truely do not see Canada opening its borders as the US has done. Especially in such a critical time as this, what with terrorists trying to enter the US and blow things up & all.

But I'm sure they wouldn't think of the southern border..no need to secure that one.

Now back to the lack of giving a crap about the USA, and what it took to make it a better place than the country the illegals came from.

nm

You sure are good with the one liners..got anything deeper than that to say? Or maybe you've reached your intellectual limit.

You're replies are a waste of space..

Your anti-immigrant diatribe above is a meandering mishmash
of factual errors and logical fallacies, consistent
only in its reactionary, self-serving hypocrisy.

I felt the phrase "RW talking points" covered all that
in just three words. I should think you would appreciate
such brevity, given your concern for "wasting space".



(And FYI: people with four punctuation errors
in three sentences probably shouldn't be making
wisecracks about "intellectual limits".)

That I personally disapprove of the illegal behavior of those who want the benefits of living in the USA is hardly a RW talking point.
It is an across the board opinion in this country void of political affiliation.

That you cannot understand that this Grama is in line with the majority of citizens in the USA who do not condone illegal behavior is your problem.

Please address the issue of drugs coming from Mexico. This is one issue but a huge one where I live.
Here's a link for you to study before you spout off the standard rant about the 'tired,poor, illegals'.

It is the illegals I address. Have no issue with those who are sincere in becoming citizens of my USA.
appreciate you spell checking my posts..saves me the time.
you are being trivial and are now on my ignore list (of one).
You are not offering any solution to the issues I bring up. Just your smart ass comments.

There are many who have become citizens by proper means. They have also voiced their disapproval for those who enter and stay in the USA illegally. I am not alone in my thinking.

Here's the link: What do we do about it? You may address it as a problem in need of a solution instead of defending the illegal side of this daunting problem.

Feel free to spell check my post, I'm in a hurry at the moment. appreciate it.



http://www.utexas.edu/research/cswr/gcattc/documents/cheeseheroin6-2-07_000.pdf

I will sleep better knowing that someone with your opinion of Mexican "illegals" is not reading my posts. If you put enough of us on "ignore" you can just post to yourself. Your bashing of Mexicans as criminals and drug dealers is classic xenophobia on display.

illegal factor is also.
Here's a good link for you to mull over..I'm sure you'll find a way to justify the criminal behavior that comes from Mexico in this case too.
Your head is in the sand and of course no Mexicans are criminals..of course they're only coming illegally to the USA to 'make a better life for their poor families back home.'
ummhmm.
Plenty of US citizens that agree with me. Here's the link:
http://www.utexas.edu/research/cswr/gcattc/documents/cheeseheroin6-2-07_000.pdf

How about Native Americans? Puerto Ricans? Chinese?

In a nation this large I am sure that there are "(p)lenty of US citizens that agree with" you. Many of them are Freepers or the likes of Rush, Tancredo and the Minutemen, but they are indeed US citizens. Congratulations.

Are you arguing that most of the Mexicans that come here are criminals and drug dealers or that a few of them are and that is not acceptable? I would be surprised if there was any group of immigrants to the US throughout our history that did not include a few criminals. I wonder if you would have lumped all of the good Irish, Italian, Polish immigrants with the "bad apples" in their midst.

You are confusing this with other drugs. I am talking about this specific one since it comes from Mexico through our southern not protected border.
I target this since some of you claim to support illegal behavior. For whatever the reason. The people bringing this stuff to Texas schools have justification for their behavior also, I'm sure.

You actually approve of this stuff? Or just finding it hard to label anything from Mexico as a negative.

Love to stay and talk, but I have things to do now.
Don't worry, I'll be back.
Illegal is still illegal..Its not the race, its the behavior.
adios.

Oh, I'll label Mexican drug dealers as negative. As are American and Canadian drug dealers. It is the "drug dealer" part of the description that is negative, not the "Mexican" part.

Do you have a hard time labeling anything from Mexico as positive? If not, I must have missed your positive posts about Mexican people.

People like you have to ignore LOTS of stuff just to get
through their day.

Inconvenient stuff like FACTS, LOGIC, basic FAIRNESS...
I'm in pretty good company on your list!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Well, keep at it until you succeed.

If you keep posting your AryanNations-style racist crap
here at DU, you're gonna need it a lot.

Would you mind placing me on your ignore list, also? Not so much for me, mind you-- but my g/f is what you would call an 'illegal'.

Granted-- I don't call her an illegal, I call her beautiful. I call her a joy. I call her wonderful. But I kind of doubt that humanizing her rather than labeling her would make you feel any better about "them"

the means of transport. Drug smuggling from Mexico is largely done in quantity via vehicle traffic through *established border crossings*, by boat and by planes, not on foot by immigrants looking for work.

I have no qualms with narcotic controls at the checkpoints, coupled with enlisting Mexican authorities to stem the flow at the *source*.

2 different issues.

Thanks.

LOL. Heroin comes from afghanistan, tylenol PM comes from the U.S., some Texans mixed it together and died. Big deal.

Blaming it on mexican immigrants is plain old fashioned race baiting.

a product of Mexico. Not Afghanistan in this case.
Read the link.
http://www.utexas.edu/research/cswr/gcattc/documents/cheeseheroin6-2-07_000.pdf


I am not the one race baiting in this thread.
I can state facts and links..You and your flaming ilk refuse to acknowledge the reality and burden placed on border states, cities and counties.
In this case it is Mexico that manufactures and brings cheese heroine to our Dallas schools. The fact that I have to cite the place of origin as Mexico is a reality not a bait.

I am against illegal behavior, however and whomever owns it.


I state Mexico since it is a big issue with opening borders, as referred to in the original post.

That you and your flame baiting ilk cannot accept that reality and discuss its ramifications to border states is unfortunate and tells me that you will pick apart my concerns and run to the mods when I refer to Mexican illegals as an genuine concern to the state I live in.

Bury your heads in the sand if you like, but in Texas this IS a serious issue. Sorry if you are offended by the mention of Mexico as the target of this particular issue. But it is.
I would have like some discussion as to a solution to this problem. But you and your baiting pals are not interested in that, clearly.
What you are interested in is flame and bait and then taking offense to the mods.

I am a US citizen, illegal behavior is offensive to me.

You may take this to the mods also.
Did I mention that black tar heroine is a product of Mexico? Does that offend you as much as it offends the families of the kids that o.d.'d on the stuff?

here's the link again:

http://www.utexas.edu/research/cswr/gcattc/documents/cheeseheroin6-2-07_000.pdf

"refer to Mexican illegals as an genuine concern to the state I live in"? We would have no discussions of illegal immigration if the mods deleted posts for that reason. "Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements." (From DU rules.) Referring to Mexicans as a racist group is probably what got you in trouble, not expressing a genuine concern about "Mexican illegals".

"In this case it is Mexico that manufactures and brings cheese heroine to our Dallas schools. The fact that I have to cite the place of origin as Mexico is a reality not a bait." "Drug smuggling from Mexico is largely done in quantity via vehicle traffic through *established border crossings*, by boat and by planes, not on foot by immigrants looking for work." (Post #56) So your linking of the drug trade with illegal immigrants would seem not lack some legitimacy.

"Did I mention that black tar heroine is a product of Mexico?" I think you have mentioned that - at least a couple of times in practically every post you make. If mere repetition would make it so, I would be convinced by now that every Mexican, at home and in the US, is a black tar heroine dealer. I am sure that you do not intentionally mean to make such a broad-brush, bigoted statement, so I assume that your posting about black tar heroine on a thread about immigration is an unfortunate mistake.

"I would have like some discussion as to a solution to this problem." I responded to this in post 91, but you have not offered any solutions of your own, just complaints. If you would like to propose a solution, please proceed.

On edit, after reviewing your profile... North Carolina. Hmmmm... How many Mexican immigrants you got there in North Carolina? How many Canadian? What's your infrastructure like there in North Carolina? Because I can tell you, here in Los Angeles, where we get far more immigrants than does North Carolina, we have no more water, no more electricity, no more sewage capabilities, no more road infrastructure.

If things are going so well in North Carolina, perhaps we should ship you some immigrants, before Los Angeles is a third-world country all it's own... because as a native Angelino, I can attest to the fact that LA is going to hell in a hand-basket on all of these issues.

Those McMansions don't build themselves, nor do NC
vegetables magically leap unbidden onto the produce trucks.
There are no lines of "real Americans" outside our restaurants
clamoring for the shitty jobs the Mexicans are performing inside.

Just like California, if all our Mexican folks disappeared
overnight, our economy would COLLAPSE. That's just a fact.

As far as I'm concerned regarding "illegal immigration",
anyone who isn't 100% Native American needs to STFU and DEAL
with it. Suck it up and get over it, because any other position
is inherently dishonest, unfair, and utterly hypocritical.

Because my people met my people at Plymouth Rock! I am both Native American, and Pilgrim... so just try to tell me to STFU!!!

I'm telling you, there is no where to put MORE PEOPLE!!! I'm not talking about any certain group of people! I'm talking about the LIVING BREATHING DRIVING EATING WATER DRINKING ELECTRICITY USING AND SHIT MAKING HUMAN BEINGS~!!! That is all. We have no room. We are falling apart because we cannot keep up with the demands we have now!!! So before you so graciously open our doors, perhaps you should find room for everyone you are inviting in!!!! We are six deep here in California! And we have nothing!!! We have absolutely nothing we can offer to more people. We will soon be in such dire straights that we will all have to look to the rest of the country for help with the simplest things! It will be us native Californians, and all the people who came here LEGALLY, who will be clamoring for humanitarian aid!!! How does this help anyone??

If you "have absolutely nothing we can offer to more people",
you need to CLEARLY explain that to the folks who live HERE:







Good luck getting them to share your concern for California's
terrible "overwhelmed infrastructure" problem.

How does it help people to turn Los Angeles into the next third world city? If we oppress everyone here, there will be no one to help anyone else.

I invite you to do a Google image search for Los Angeles skid row... and feast your eyes on more of the same. You aren't fooling anyone. You think you have all the fucking answers, well come downtown and I'll give you a little tour. Then I invite you to tell me how all those other people you want to send to us are going to live so much better than they are now!!! At least now they have some form of a roof over their heads... not a tent... not a urine soaked sidewalk. Please... why don't you do a little research before you go looking so silly.

How about moving some of those folks to North Carolina?

and see how they live their life.......


It ain't pretty. Why are you comparing it to LA? Life in Mexico is NOTHING like LA. If you believe it is.... go there (not the border towns), you will never comprehend until you do.

And with Mexico a scant two hours away, I've been there dozens of times in my 50 years. I'm not talking Baja or Tijuana, I'm talking tar-paper shanties with children who beg for pennies. I've been on many a van trip, loaded with clothing, food and toiletries. What have you seen? What have you done for them? I've seen and done plenty, you don't know shit about me or what I've seen with my own eyes.

Until you've walked the urine soaked sidewalks where the tent cities are erected nightly in LA's skid row, you don't know shit. Until you've seen 10 people living in a tent, and their children howling because they are so hungry, don't even talk to me.

I'll take a tar-paper shanty in Mexico over life among drug dealers, drug addicts, the mentally ill, and assorted criminals, in an area where all you can smell is diesel and piss. We aren't talking about a few dozen people here. We are talking about thousands!!! Tens of thousands at some points in the year.

Tell me what again? Bullshit.

You've been fooled. I know some illegal immigrants that came here from comfortable homes. They said they actually like it better down there and they did not need to come here. In fact, almost all of them I hear about like it better in Mexico. They don't all live in shacks.

Although if this shit keeps up California will look like that.

Since most of them "like it better there, and don't NEED to come here,"
and all that.

:eyes:

and because our dollar is (was :() stronger.

nm

before you make them up?

:eyes:

"All my best friends are illegals and they hate america and being here."

my daughter works at a Mexican Restaurant and they all, yes all, tell her that.
No I'm not making it up.
Is it actually so unbelievable that they might actually not like this place except for the money? :wow:

because of people like 'budibudinski' who hates anything Mexican.

People forget once upon a time they (English, Scottish, Italians, Irish, Germans, Spanish, Polish, Russians, etc) where lining up the harbors waiting to get indoctrinated, but oh no, all that is forgotten because they are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Generation, so we where here before they did, see how selfish the thinking is.

The chance your parents had is the same chance they're looking for, now...3rd and 4th Generation are changing everything because mummy and daddy forget to tell them how THEY struggle to get here.

So you get opinions like budibudinski, if you think about......its no fault of theirs.

Its all in the vision.....how you look through the lens, thats what matters.

and resisted by those who already lived here. They were perceived as more competition for jobs, housing, etc., plus they usually spoke a "funny" language or belonged to an unfamiliar religion. You are right that by the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation they are accepted as Americans.

While those who resist the current wave of Hispanic immigrants can hang their hat on the "legality" of the immigration, they share many characteristics with those who loudly resisted previous waves of immigration throughout our history, often with much stereotyping and false accusations. It is ironic that in a country known around the world as a multi-ethnic haven for immigration, there has always been, and continues to be, visceral opposition to all groups of actual immigrants, even while the theoretical concept of immigration is praised.

That doesn't exactly REINFORCE your anti-immigrant position, you know. :silly:

You are the one who said anyone but Native Americans don't really have a say... well, first off, everyone born here is a native American. I much prefer American Indian. Second, your response here makes no sense in the context to which I offered up the information.

There was plenty of room for all back then. I hate what my people did to my people. There was plenty for all, but some of us got greedy. There is no room now, not in Los Angeles. There is nothing to be greedy over. If the borders are opened, I give LA two years before it looks exactly like the worst parts of Mexico. That won't help Mexicans, and it won't help Angelinos.

You are pretty generous with a city that is not yours.

Wrong on one count......everyone becomes an American, not Native American.

I was born here. I've never been a citizen of any other country on the face of the Earth in my entire life. I am a native American. This was explained to me by an American Indian attorney who is famous for championing American Indian rights. I think he knew what he was talking about.

I am also an American Indian.

My European ancestors have been here 14 generations. My American Indian ancestors have been here for a lot longer than that. I am a native of America... a native American... AND an American Indian.

not immigrants, you make room for expansions.

There's just no convincing someone who lives far away from the problem.

recognize the scope of this issue. They will state the same rant, and when you respond "inapropriately", they run crying to the mods.

Keyboard commandoes, thats a good description.

Well I grew up with all kinds of races..geez every other kid was from another country. Great mix, and they all were here by hard work and legal entry.
In my experience, as of the past couple years, the Hispanic communities are the most racist of all, in this great mix of people - the USA.
They don't like anyone but their own kind. And they wonder why they aren't welcome as illegals?
Texas and recently Oklahoma, among other States, are doing what they can to save their financial state solvency. Records show it is due to the influx of illegals that have burdined state & city SSvc funds. WTF do they expect us to do?
'Third world country' is a perfect description. And that is the reality in many cities.

And you'll see what I see every day. So many of us donate time, money and goods to the local missions, only to find them overloaded year after year... and getting more crowded all the time. In my own neighborhood near Long Beach, the authorities are daily finding homes suitable for six people holding 20 or more... with winter coming, we will see them setting their houses and garages on fire accidentally while they try to stay warm. It's horrible, and it is getting visibly worse every day.

And then I complain about these poor people jumping from the frying pan into the fire, and I'm treated like some heartless asshole. Fuck that! These jerks who sit all comfy cozy in their chair need to come walk a mile in my moccasins, THEN tell me another fairy tale.

Pisses me off what passes for information these days. Go to the source.

I think that Kennedy had a good idea this summer with the immigration reform legislation. Was it perfect? No. Was it better than what we have now? Yes.

Is your mantra: "illegal=bad=deport, illegal=bad=deport, illegal=bad=deport, ...? Or am I oversimplifying?

I don't know who "ran crying to the mods", but they only delete a post if they find it to be racist or otherwise inappropriate. The idea is that racist speech is not allowed at a liberal place like DU. If you prefer a place that permits racist speech, the Freepers have a site where you might prosper. As a matter of fact, I am not sure that your posts here would not fit very well in their mindset. Is that some sense in which you think that your views on illegal immigrants are more liberal than those of the RW typified by Rush and the Minutemen?

to my original question towards lack of respect or consideration for those who built this nation into the one the illegals want to sneak into and then demand equal rights without the process of citizenship.
No response to the serious problem of deadly 'cheese heroine' both made in Mexico and brought here to the local school kids ..for profit.
What I have heard is a continual bashing with every question I pose. You have the 'keyboard commando' down to a repetitive science.

You offer no solution, just the same vile language which makes me peg you as the flame-bait types that exist here on DU.
I am fine in knowing my concerns are sound and stand with the majority in this country concerning illegal immigration, regardless of political affiliation.
I know from the friends & coworkers who agree with me and the majority in wanting the illegals to acquire citizenship the same way they all had to.

It is you that brings racism to posts like this, in your complete lack of looking at the points of view from those who disagree with you.

It is the difference between legal & illegal and the many issues brought to the counties and states that must now find a way to deal with such an influx of people.

That you collectively mock my questions, that you reply with smart ass comments tells me you are here to flame-bait an issue and then call me racist.
It is you who encourages racism.

Enough said.

bill this summer. I notice that you did not respond to my "solution" just accused me of whatever you felt like.

Pardon me if I did not respond to your "original question". Did I not go back far enough in your posts to realize that anything I posted should be directed at answering your original question, rather than anything you have written since then.
Those who built this nation into what it is today lived in a society that was open to immigration and used their talents, whether the immigrants were legal, illegal, or came here before there were immigration laws of any kind. I do not personally believe that their intent was to build a country that would one day seek to close the doors to immigrants that had been open in their day. Perhaps you believe that they planned to use immigrants to build our society and then, one day, slam the door shut, so that only those who were here as of some magic date got to benefit from the society that they built.

I have responded that I am against drug dealers of all nationalities, but do not hold their sins against those who share only a country of origin with such bad people.

It was not I that brought racism into this discussion. Indeed, I have not accused you of any such thing. You have put racism into several of your posts, accusing Mexicans of being racists. I only pointed out that was probably why the mods were not happy with one of your posts.

You are right that there are some in both parties that agree with your concerns about illegal immigration. There are also some who agree with my view of this issue, though I will concede that not as many on the repub side agree with me. They do tend to get pretty fired up and xenophobic when discussing this issue.

Them hispanics is the most racist.

:rofl:

PROJECT much?

nm

:thumbsup:

I just hope people who don't live among the immigrants realize that 1) they are being awfully generous with a city that isn't theirs, and 2) if the borders are opened, it will be two years tops before Los Angeles looks like the worst parts of Mexico. That doesn't do anyone any good at all.

We need to think about this issue with our heads, not our hearts. I'm the biggest sap there is... I'd fill my house with poor kids if I thought I could do it right. It's not going to help anyone to be so generous with NOTHING! We have nothing to offer, but more of the same.

How about this (paraphrasing Victor Hugo):

Which is more important to you-- imaginary red and black lines on a piece of paper called a map, or human beings?





But I'm sure Hugo would be considered a 'waste of space' too these days...

govern either side of that imaginary line. I'd like to think there is no actual border between USA & Canada, would be nice to just head to BColumbia at will. But when I am there I still have to comply with Canadian law.
Must be my racism towards Canadians that upsets me about that .
Darn that imaginary line!

Darn that imaginary line!

Got that right. The cause for more death and suffering on this planet than anything else-- and it's just a bunch of crap people buy into...

I truely do not see Canada opening its borders as the US has done.

To begin with, you have a silly premise in your statement. What has the US done -- open its borders?? I hardly think so.

The US has a southern border that is apparently difficult to monitor and control, and that many people attempt to cross. That really isn't equivalent to "opening its borders". People who cross without permission are entering illegally -- the border is legally closed to them.

Canada's immigration policy is not hugely different from US immigration policy. We admit family members of legal residents, and independent immigrants capable of supporting themselves and contributing economically.

We do admit far more immigrants annually, as a percentage of population, than the US does. This in itself doesn't really mean much, since the Canadian economy may simply be able to absorb more immigrants than the US economy. However, our immigration policy is at present far more egalitarian than US policy. Country of origin is completely irrelevant in our calculation, and in no way determines eligibility for immigration, for example.

The main reason why Canada's immigration policy has become more stringent in the last few years is demands from the US for us to give effect to a "security perimeter" around the two countries. Our immigration practices must coincide with US practices, because doncha know there would otherwise terrorists just streaming into Canada and slipping into the US to wreak havoc. Progressive people in Canada are not at all happy about this. The alternative would be to thumb our noses at the US and suffer the economic consequences of a far less porous fence, to interfere with legitimate cross-border flows and thus cripple our economy, going up on the other side of the border.


Now back to the lack of giving a crap about the USA, and what it took to make it a better place than the country the illegals came from.

So are you taking credit for all that effort? Should anyone today be taking credit for it, or claiming sole entitlement to it? And how much of what you've got was gained at the expense of people somewhere else, including Mexico, anyhow?

Quite a bit.

It's uncomfortable to see one's society changing around one. It's also kind of the human condition, and what happens to one as one ages. If it isn't the immigrants, it's the young people of today -- they just don't appreciate ... blah blah. I'm pretty old, and I'm not immune to any of this. But I recognize that the world is not static.

Despite the very high proportion of immigrants in Canada -- approaching 20% of the population is non-native born -- we don't suffer from the cleavages in our society that are found in the US. And I'd say that this is to a large extent because we, the society composed of oldtimers like me and newcomers alike, work damned hard to identify and promote the common values of Canadian society. And high on the list of those values is accepting, respecting and celebrating diversity.

If the values you're wanting newcomers to rally around don't include the goal of integrating their cultures and identities into the broader society -- not assimilating them, integrating them as a part of it -- then small wonder they don't value your citizenship.

Me, I do my bit. I spent several years socializing with the little Chinese-born girls across the street -- showing them "classic" English-language movies, helping with their homework, doing crafts with them, going to multicultural festivals at their school with them when their parents were too burdened with work and home duties -- and getting homemade Chinese goodies from their mums in return. And also banging their heads about going to Chinese school on Saturday morning when they didn't want to. I wasn't working to assimilate them; I was trying to help them integrate, as what they are, and to help them value what they are, not pressure them to abandon their cultural identities.


I actually don't express an opinion about US immigration policy, and policy to address the obvious problems that accompany massive illegal immigration. I don't feel qualified to have an opinion. I wonder what Canada would look like if, instead of forming a union with the less developed population of Quebec many years ago -- an agrarian, priest-ridden society, cut off from its European parent and culturally and linguistically insular, lagging well behind the rest of the continent in infrastructures and institutions -- the English-speaking population had gone its own way alone. We might be facing some similar problem. Fortunately, both parties in the Canadian confederation had the foresight to see a partnership of equals as the best idea. If the US had undertaken some similar partnership process many years ago, instead of pursuing economic and/or political colonization of its neighbours, it might not have the problems it has now. But that's hindsight, and doesn't really offer a present-day solution. So I propose none.


(edited to fix unintelligible sentence)

It means a place to go and try to feed your family after you and yours were robbed, tortured, raped and killed for American corporate interests that bought your government or assassinated your democracy or imposed trade agreements that were a suicide pact for your industry.

That's what it means.

Any more questions?

came to this continent and killed millions of its inhabitants.

I have no sympathy for the number of illegals who wander into the country and expect their fair share of things. This is sure to get me scoffed at by many but, fine, whatever.

I consider myself liberal, I take 'leftist' views on many things. But when it comes to immigration I am staunchly opposed to anyone who thinks they can just hop a truck over here and bam, get what they want. The problem is that illegals work for next to nothing because they aren't educated enough to get productive, high paying jobs. So the jobs they end up taking are the jobs that the country is moving away from: Agriculture and service. So they get hired in at cheap rates to do work, thus saving companies money for not having to pay full costs on honest work.

Then you have places rushing to defend them because the businesses don't want to lose the cheap labor and pay an honest wage for honest work.

The problem is so multi-tier and is really just sickening. We need to close the borders, create a working way for people to come in and be real citizens; pay their taxes, contribute to society, and then get legitimate jobs.

It's so easy to say we want to help lift these people up but they need to come in here through the proper channels, no matter how broken they are, because it's insulting to those who used them when others get in past them.

You mention Ellis Island, and the number of immigrants who came here with no idea how America worked but managed to help paint the picture of our nation. Those immigrants struggled to learn our ways, customs, and language. These immigrants could care less and only know enough english to get them through the day. Many of them refuse to speak english or teach it to their children.

I could go on and on and on and my synopsis is not a blanket that covers them all, there are exclusions to every rule and people who defy their stereotypes.

But when you look at things like the case of the rapist in Texas who was an illegal immigrant, the amount of crime on our southern border, the rapidly rising number of mexicans in our country (10% of Mexico's entire population is in the US as I heard it once) who are here outside the law.. the things that mass take away from us vastly outweigh the things the legitimate or well meaning ones contribute.

Closing the border won't solve the problem but it will take significant strain off those souls who live in fear of their lives on the southern borders and states and help to stem the tide of people coming in looking for the Express Pass to Easy Town.

generation - the kids - become conversant in English. Mom and Dad may remain primarily monolingual, but the kids assimilate.

I agree immigrants work for cheap wages. Not because they're uneducated, but because it's a better shake than they can get at home. And they are productive. Go shopping at your local grocery. That produce aisle?, most was probably harvested by a migrant worker in California.

Your points about labor and wages are well taken, yet the 'rapist in Texas who was an illegal immigrant' seems dropped into your argument solely to conflate the issue. Geez, 2 local, native born guys in my small town were arrested recently for rape.

And if folks along the southern border are living in fear of their lives, why do Texas ranchers on the border oppose the wall?

Should we settle for a fear based, non-solution or one based objectively, with the facts?

Thanks for your post.

California wine.

and believe me every sip I take I do thank an immigrant..my european ancestors who suffered such enormous hardships to get to the US, pass through the gates Legally and in good enough health to be allowed to stay, and built pride and respect into their communities, their unions, their schools and churchs.
They fought the wars because they collectively loved this country enough to not let it go by the way of their home countries and communism.

I do thank the immigrants who come to the US as legally as my ancestors did. Those who then have nothing but a better life in mind.
Its the ILLEGAL ones who SNEAK into MY country to scam off the goodness of the land, that I have a problem with..and they are the people who are at the center of these continuing arguments.

Non citizens with no intention of becoming one. Yet loving the benefits of life in the old USA.
Take the crime the drugs and the illegals back where it all came from. There's enough right here in the USA to deal with , without opening the borders to a free-for-all.

The drug "cheese" brought to the Texas schools targets children in elementary age groups.
Another gift from Mexico. A mix of Tylenolpm and black tar heroine..produced in the country of Mexico, mixed to resemble yellow cheese crumbles and has killed kids in Texas, and caused the opening of rehab centers for young kids.
Address the issues like this, that come directly from Mexico, to clearly take advantage of children.

I don't care about statistics of crime from, Mexico, illegals, vs. non-illegals.
I know that this kind of criminal behavior exists and is not EVER addressed by those who advocate for illegals.
Give me a f**ing break..Your tired ,poor, just looking for a better life, illegals are looking for a fast buck and quite sure they're not about to spend a day in the fields pickin grapes.
They are criminals, and thugs, and SNEAK into this USA of mine, because their agenda has absolutely nothing to do with pride or respect for this country, OR with becoming a freakin citizen.

I say close the damn border..where's that fence. and when you speak of poor immigrants, I want you to start addressing the criminal element. It Surely exists in the Dallas schools..called "cheese heroine"..the black tar heroine is produced in Mexico.

The migrant workers you speak of are a totally different bunch. My problem is with the illegals coming here with no background check, no intention other than a fast buck. Address the issue of 'cheese heroine' your illegals have brought to my city. Then tell me why I must embrace the illegal. I dont. I loathe them for this. Its My Country and I will do what I can to keep it that way in honor to my ancestors and all those who fought to make it better than the one they left.

http://www.utexas.edu/research/cswr/gcattc/documents/cheeseheroin6-2-07_000.pdf

Black tar heroine is produces in Mexico. It is now the USA's problem.
Thanks Mexico.
Border needs to be closed.

Illegals are the issue, no one applies for citizenship before they smuggle their drugs.

Language, granted. That does eventually happen. Wages, yes. The rapist? It is off the train of thought but it's something that IS of significance because the world court is getting involved in it and it's another facet of the immigrant issue. If he was an american citizen, it would be death penality. If he was a mexican citizen, it would be death penalty. But since he's a mexican citizen, over here, they're trying to forstall death and give him special consideration that he's not due. That's why I mention it.

Why do texas ranchers oppose a wall? Because they get cheap labor. That question is too obvious.

fields for low wages with immigrants. Honest work, miserable pay.

no one works harder than a migrant in the field.
Guess what, someone tilled the fields and brought in the crops, sent the goods to market and eventually had to form unions to see that they received parity for their goods. Much is taken for granted in your statement.
My father farmed his entire life. He had no air conditioned cab on his tractor to protect him from the hot sumer sun..no cell phones, no help other than the closest neighbor. Who the hell do you think you are talking to when you continue the 'poor me migrant in the field story.' People in this country have worked hard since the day of its development.
My father was not guaranteed a wage like your field workers. He prayed and hoped that he could get the crop off the field before the hail storms came and left him with nothing for his hard days in the field.
I am talking about generations who lived like this so your statement understood, only because many of Americans have been there. So what. its they're choice as was my father's.

He loved that life, by the way.

:hi:

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/special_report/sr_022107.pdf

Pretty par for the course, in my experience.

Because, distrust of the other, or distrust of the people over the hil is close to a universal cultural phenomena. But in some people, it's almost as if some gene got tweaked and what may be prudent self protection goes completely NUTS and winds up being the Aryan Nation. :shrug:

Illegal is still illegal.
I believe that there may be a defect in DNA of those with a justification towards illegal criminal behavior rather than those who disapprove of it.

Has nothing to do with race or country of origin. Its the behavior that is the problem

for their cronies so people can stay home.

The behavior is DEFINITELY a problem. Just ask the people of Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Chile, Argentina, Colombia, -- just ask them all.

There was no problem organizing in this country to demand their voices be heard.
Can they organize in their own country to demand an end to the political divide that denies their
own people a decent life in the country of their birth?

We have a similar problem in the USA with the Bush admin. Our government was clearly overthrown by the corporate will of greed and profit. A new path for the middle class has been laid out by Bush & pals. It is unlike anything this country has seen.
Can we count on the enormous Hispanic community to help return this country to a free nation? I wonder if we can, when they won't stand up to the gov't of their own country.

Illegal immigration is welcomed by the corporate profiteers in this country. Who will the illegal immigrants side with if they are given legal status by simply entering the USA? Corporations will love them and those who want our civil rights restored will question their loyalty.

Illegal is still illegal.Its that simple.

the oligarchy steal the election from the progressive candidate. Google is your friend.

It is a measure of your bias that you don't even know that the people were out on the streets in the MILLIONS.

I'd really like to know if those who approve of illegal behavior also approve of drug trafficking, rape, murder, etc.
I have many friends and coworkers who are Hispanic.(and Asian, etc.)
not one of them condones the illegal who refuses to become a citizen.

We've had plenty of discussions about this, it still boils down to the issue of being illegal yet grabbing a nice piece of the bounty of this country.
Course they are all here legally. They truely do not support the criminal behavior of their fellow countrymen. They say it gives them a bad name even though they acquired their citizenship porperly.

I have no problem condeming the criminal actions of fellow US citizens...I guess that's how they feel.
Total solidarity and loyalty within the Hispanic community is hardly a fact.

Rosa Parks refused to obey the law regarding where to sit on the bus. Abolitionists refused to comply with slavery laws. Canada both harbored runaway slaves and draft resisters. Sit-ins broke the law mandating separate public and private facilities for Blacks and Whites under Jim Crow.

None of these compare directly to "illegal" immigration, but the point is that there is a human and moral component to the enforcement of laws. Few liberals would argue that no consideration should be paid to the moral aspect of enforcing a particular law. Many factors come into play. It is not a black or white issue.

Interesting that all of your friends have exactly the same mindset when it comes to illegal immigrants. My friends have varying attitudes over an issue as complicated as this. "not one of them condones the illegal who refuses to become a citizen". Do you find that many of these immigrants come here to stay and raise their children but absolutely refuse to become US citizens? If that is true, we should have passed the immigration bill, with its "amnesty" and citizenship provisions, since none of these people wants to become a citizen anyway. :eyes:

refuse to become citizens.

Damned abolitionists! Breaking the law and all, because illegal is illegal, right? Had nothing to do with race right? It was the behavior of the abolitionists that was the problem...

Round the illegals up and send them home. Include with them the children born in the country and called the anchor babies. If they are not willing to go through the legal process to gain admittance into this country I want nothing to do with them.

I will not surrender this country to those who think that they have a right to reconquer land their forefathers lost many years ago. I will fight them with all means available to prevent that. My forefathers entered this country legally and prospered. After two hundred plus years here we have the right to call ourselves American. They do not.

be called "American."

That's why Spanish speakers refer to us as "Norteamericanos."

200 years ago? Why would you not want current immigrants to go through the same immigration process that your forefathers did?

Because the illegal free for all has gotten so out of control.
I never used to feel this way..I see and hear little in the way of pride, respect and recognition for what this country is, compared to what their country is not.

And that you "see and hear little" regarding brown people
that doesn't come second-hand from racists and xenophobic
hate-mongers.

What is the precise and relevant amount of time it takes before a conquering nation can declare it "their" homeland and off limits to everyone else?

Who decides what that figure is? What is that figure based on?






And yeah... my girlfriend *is* trying to reconquer America (she's what you people label an illegal). She's insidious about it too. Just this morning she mentioned she'd be going to a local bookstore and picking up a collection of Robert frost poetry. The sheer genius of her plan, right? She's the devil, I tell you! The devil!

(Don't worry though-- I seriously doubt she wants anything to do with you, either...)

http://notexasborderwall.com/










VVAW:

There are no lines between countries when you look at Earth from space.

Coffee mug sloganeering doesn't offer a solution to the problem. No borders, eh? I suppose Iraq is the natural "winter home" for US troops? Certainly it couldn't be a SEPARATE COUNTRY that has been invaded and occupied...

Seems Victor Hugo was "trite crap" too as he stated (and I paraphrase), 'what's more important to you-- imaginary red and black lines on a piece of paper called a map, or human beings?'

Guess we can look at many of these posts and infer answers without too much thought invested.


Those imaginary red and black lines working out for you? Let's hope so, 'cause it appears that the 'human beings' thing isn't...

and you trot out a quote from someone famous, which quote also offers nothing of substance in addressing the issue. And then you throw in a personal attack for flavor. Stellar. I suppose that by the Utopian Fantasyland definition of the term, you think you've made some point?

May it be a good one.

Every major influx of immigrants has led to a stronger United States. Even the unforgivable horror of slavery has eventually enriched our culture (and world culture!) to an immense degree. We're better as a country when we are less homogenized.

conserving our natural resources. I am appalled when I see how much of Florida has been paved over for cookie cutter housing. Look at Atlanta with huge population growth and diminishing water resources due to drought. I want future generations to have some wild areas and enough water and farmland left to survive. Otherwise I would care less how many new people were legal or illegal immigrants. There had to be some kind of balance in regard to available resources.

Do you really think this would benefit the current citizens of America?

I don't and I prefer alot more regulation.

should be applied equally to all. Duh. Currently globalization provides little or no benefit to workers on either side of the borders opened up to trade, and in many cases simply liberates capital from domestic regulation by allowing it to move freely across borders in search of ever less regulated regions in which to exploit humans and the environment in order to maximize profits. We can pin capital back down within national borders, or we can expand labor and environmental regulations across the entire planet. It would be very difficult to renationalize capital, but globalized democratic social regulation of capital is in fact entirely realistic and is their worst nightmare.

Better to negotiate an agreement between all the North American countries for open borders and an exchange of goods and workers with agreed up price and wage restrictions. If we insist on all workers in those countries getting a living wage, it might keep the immigrants at home willingly.

9 guest worker programs. The H2-A program for agricultural workers allows farmers to bring in ALL the workers they need but they must pay the going wage. Unfortunately a lot of companies including farmers don't want that, they prefer to exploit illegal workers and screw them over on wages and just about everything else. My guess is that some of the other guest worker programs also have requirements that companies don't particularly like so they also prefer to hire illegally. Open borders and uncontrolled migration is NOT any more an answer to the problem than the notion that we can deport 12 to 20 million.

Its here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1064574

Though your idea could be a good first step.

:thumbsdown:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/staticpages/index.php/20060830133702539

BTW-Anyone who loves the U.S. should realize that a merger of the 3 countries means the U.S. no longer exists. Poof-it's history.

with significant segment of DU. ;) The times they are a changin'.

Not as old as Grace Slick, but tear down the walls m-fer!

at a time when we need them to stay away from the voting booths.

Until you figure out what we're going to do with the overflow right now, it's irresponsible just to keep the faucet flowing.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, then you need to get involved with Mexico's politics. And you want to keep their citizens in their own country so they can vote in their own elections, and, hopefully, vote in a labor friendly leader.

Thanks.

We have no more water; our source cannot handle the number of people we have now. We have no more sewage capabilities; our infrastructure cannot handle all the people we have now. Our roads cannot handle the number of people we have now. We have no more electricity; our system cannot handle the number of people we have now.

When you talk about "opening boarders," where do you suppose all these people are heading. From my perspective, they are in California... mostly in Los Angeles.

You tell me how we can support all those people with our already failing infrastructure, and I'm all for your plan. Otherwise, try again.

...would be to STOP spending 2 billion dollars a week to kill Iraqis,
and start using that money to repair and improve our crumbling infrastructure.

That infrastructure isn't failing in a vacuum; it's failing because
the CHOICE has been made to not maintain it.

The money we've spent there could have made some HUGE improvements here.

Water? How many city-sized desalinization plants could that $$$ have built?
Energy? We could have bought enough solar panels to eliminate our
need for Iraqi oil forever.

You see where I'm going here, I'm sure.

All those billions could have been better served right here in the good 'ol US of A, no question about it.

What do we do in the real world where that isn't happening and there are no resources available to us right now?

Doesn't look like the normal political process actually
changes anything anymore; our wonderful "Dem Majority"
doesn't seem too concerned about reversing this nation's
disastrous slide into crumbling chaos.

Seems like the only USEFUL answer to "what do we do" these days
is some variation of "you're on your own". It's damned depressing,
some days. :shrug:

Reduce, recycle, reuse; do whatever you can to become more
self-sufficient, and hope to live to see better days. :shrug:

Before you campaign to let more people in, why not campaign to make sure there is something here for them when they get here? If you put the cart before the horse, you will have created a horrible situation for states such as California, Arizona, Texas, etc. And all the people who come here will find things no different than the place they left!!!

Would be to bring the US Army home and station them across the US / Mexico border. Once THOSE two things are done, then, and only then we can discuss liberalizing US immigration procedures.

to patrol the US/Mexico border for you. Those guys are used to preventing border crossings with as much firepower as was necessary. Come to think of it, the Minutemen are already patrolling the border in places. All they need is more firepower. They already have the willingness to use it.

Color me surprised if those in favor of putting our armed forces on the border to prevent immigration from Mexico and other Central and South American countries are supporters of liberalizing US immigration procedures. If they are, then perhaps we could work something out ahead of time (some kind of "immigration compromise") in which border security coupled with reforming immigration procedures would make everyone at least a little bit happy.

of census stats on where the state's main population growth is occuring - wether it's native born, interstate immigration, or international immigration. I haven't looked at the stats for a while and have forgotten the overview.

Water is our *big* limiting factor on a sustainable population, for sure.

Thanks.

That's the solution.

As long as there is inequality, they'll cross the border. And were things switched, it would be just the reverse.


However, that isn't going to happen. So I have no solution.

and he minimized the labor situation in Mexico, as well as the huge disparity in real wages/living conditions there. Wish he'd put his 'charisma' behind some real reforms in Mexico. It would help both our countries.

I don't worry about these things too much. The United States is going to look more and more like Mexico, whether or not we implement draconian immigration policies, simply because our economy depends upon our control of oil and natural gas markets.

When shortages of oil and natural gas, climate change, and our outrageous national debt break the dollar entirely there will be much less trouble on our border with Mexico. On the other hand, the Canadians might not be happy with us looking hungrily at their natural resources and jobs.

It's always the blatant racism I find objectionable, that somehow brown people from Mexico are trying to take away something we "earned" and "fought for." I didn't fight for or earn my U.S. cizienship. I was simply born here.

Frankly, as a "native" Californian for at least a couple of generations, it's all those immigrants from the East Coast or white people from Texas who complain about Mexicans who tweak me the most.

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The idea that we can is a lie a whole bunch of people seem to have bought. As long as America is a market, our borders are open, walls or no.

where Anglos welcomed all the Irish, Italian, Caribbean and Eastern European immigrants. And how we all emmigrated here crossing every "t" and dotting every "i." We all began to speak English or get rid of our accents as fast as we could so as not to make anyone feel uncomfortable.

And now that the Anglos feel we have assimilated enough to play golf with them, we best be getting in line on these Mexicans.