Parents use religion to avoid vaccines

BOSTON - Sabrina Rahim doesn't practice any particular faith, but she had no problem signing a letter declaring that because of her deeply held religious beliefs, her 4-year-old son should be exempt from the vaccinations required to enter preschool.

She is among a small but growing number of parents around the country who are claiming religious exemptions to avoid vaccinating their children when the real reason may be skepticism of the shots or concern they can cause other illnesses. Some of these parents say they are being forced to lie because of the way the vaccination laws are written in their states.

"It's misleading," Rahim admitted, but she said she fears that earlier vaccinations may be to blame for her son's autism. "I find it very troubling, but for my son's safety, I feel this is the only option we have."

An Associated Press examination of states' vaccination records and data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that many states are seeing increases in the rate of religious exemptions claimed for kindergartners.

"Do I think that religious exemptions have become the default? Absolutely," said Dr. Paul Offit, head of infectious diseases at Children's Hospital in Philadelphia and one of the harshest critics of the anti-vaccine movement. He said the resistance to vaccines is "an irrational, fear-based decision."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071018/ap_on_re_us/vaccine_skeptics

their insurance carrier is. "Measels encephalitis? It's god's will, so go home and ask god to change his mind."

The problem is that enough of these kids will become a nice disease reservoir and infect adults whose vaccinations have worn off. They pose a danger.

There should be no opt out for these antivax loons unless they want to homeschool their brats. Even then, those brats need to be vaccinated before they enter college.

I do believe she should get the MMR and Tetnus vaccines for her children. These vaccines have been proven safe.

The program should be "opt-in".

With that said, :popcorn:

.

It would be interesting to see a class-action lawsuit on behalf of an entire community against parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, thereby contributing to the spread of disease. If I were to contract the mumps because the child of a paranoid parent sneezes on me at the grocery store and end up hospitalized in serious condition with the mumps as a result, do I have any legal rights at all?

in any case -- superstitious folderol not get your kids vaccinated -- and it just shows the horrifying irresponsibility of those who continue to spread the horse crap about vaccines and autism.

DESPITE being vaccinated???

who contracts a disease that cause irreparable harm to her future child may have a case.

these vaccines are mandated for a reason.

And immunity from childhood fades with age. As others have stated, there is a reason why these vaccines are mandated.

That's the usual reason things are mandated in Bush's America.

doctors whose "well baby" visits are their bread and butter.

Nobody ever said vaccination is 100%. Nothing medically ever is. And the standard never is 100% effective. We do the best we can. Vaccinations sometimes don't take, wear off and some people get sick from the vaccination itself. On the whole, if everyone is vaccinated, then there will be much less disease and suffering.

But it takes civic minded folks who care about the other people in the community other than themselves. And amongst the anti-vaccination nutters civic mindedness and caring seems to be in short supply (as well as scientific literacy).

Excellent post.

I admit to suffering from righteous (in my mind) indignation at people who seem to expect herd immunity from those who DO vaccinate their kids to protect theirs from harm.

But it takes civic minded folks who care about the other people in the community other than themselves. And amongst the anti-vaccination nutters civic mindedness and caring seems to be in short supply (as well as scientific literacy).

Couldn't agree more.

So rubella is in fact very dangerous for a pregnant woman to contract. She will not be terribly sick, but her baby will have a lifetime disability when born.

Cheers.

Hekate

when my mom was pregnant with my younger brother. Off we went to live with relatives & we didn't go home until after she had him.

dg

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

If she passes something on to a pregnant woman, who has a miscarriage or gives birth to a malformed child as a result? I hope your religious beliefs -- assuming you actually have a religious objection -- gives you comfort.

Many childhood diseases are dangerous to adults and can be fatal. Immunity from previous exposure (including vaccines) does fade. Several years ago, my then-boyfriend's mother was hospitalized for a week in serious condition because she had contracted measles. She survived, but she was in very real danger of death. Again, there is a reason why vaccines are required.

no amount of research satisfies these folk -- no fact snaps them back to reality.

very distressing that du is becoming a springboard for this stuff.

Odd. He tested the polio vaccine on himself, his staff, his wife, and children, before he ran trials nationwide.

I find it hard to believe that a scientist who'd inject his own flesh and blood with an unproven vaccine would balk at vaccinating his children, with vaccines that had already gone through trials. Unless you have proof for this little nugget, besides "I say so".

Sounds like you've swallowed some propaganda, yourself.

I remember a time when religion was a personal matter -- not a pass on science.

And Dr. Salk didn't believe in 'em, y'know. Good 'nuff for me.

:rofl:

people and immune suppressed people, and they die. then what?

What religion and which doctrine?

BEFORE the general public began receiving vaccinations in 1954.

and kept up with boosters, then you don't need to worry about coming down with the mumps.

and if we all took this attitude, it wouldnt be too long before these diseases start killing kids en masse.

multiple problems in their senior ''post-polio'' years.

although it was mostly seen with kids who got polio when they were older. I had it when I was three.

so you might find some info on it.

boy did he suffer -- a lot of pain.

Fibro can be associated with collagen vascular diseases like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, but it's also seen in the absence of any other disease process.

They've only lately realized it's real.

I believe the symptoms are similar. It wasn't too long ago that shingles was considered nothing more than hyperchondria.

I also have fibromyalgia, and this article relates to me -- although perhaps not to you, as you actually had polio. Family dysfunction is the gift that just keeps on giving.

http://www.myalgia.com/abuse.htm

Hekate

of polio when she was about 3. I had full-blown polio @ 19 months. We are both 54 now and have similar problems. Lots of pain, muscle weakness, wacky hormone issues. I tried most of my life to exercise my polio away and thus is why I have PPS worse than most. Did your symptoms start 30 years after your onset of polio? Mine did, exactly 30 - as is the case with most post-polios.

I have read where many autoimmune diseases like fibro are showing up in people who had mild cases of polio. More women than men, why is that?

Take care, eat healthy and don't over exercise/over do is my advice.

Unless you are a malnourished child, the latter 3 diseases are no risk to you. The real reason the government pushes vaccinations is that diseases cut down on productivity when parents stay out of work with sick kids.

are no risk to people. well fed or otherwise.

and it's horrifyingly irresponsible of you to say so.

If you're an adult, it hits you like a ton of bricks. I speak from (painful) experience.

It was called, one kid in my kindergarten class got it so everyone went over to his house for a day, drank from the same cup, got coughed on, etc.

I didn't get sick, but for a short while 3/4 of my class was out with the chicken pox, while I sat there with the other few uninfected kids, and the scabby initial outbreak kid...Later I caught it as an adult and it knocked me on my ass, from which my immune system has never been the same.

Mumps can also make someone sterile. Might not be 'death' but can be seen as a very big side effect.

Ever hear of measles encephalitis? That's when the virus spreads to the brain. I know because I had it. When I came out of the coma, I found out one of my playmates had died from it.

These diseases are NOT benign. Whooping cough in a toddler takes two years to recover from. It kills infants. Diphtheria and tetanus also have high death rates in all ages.

Please educate yourself beyond antivax hysteria sites. They are lying to you the way Pox News lies to right wingers.

Ignorance like yours can kill.

(By the way, adults need TDP boosters. I had pertussis as an adult and it took me 8 months to recover)

Chicken pox, measles and mumps are minor diseases in children. By the time a person reaches late teens or early 20s, these diseases become much more virulent and usually lead to hospitalization.

A person who was not exposed to them as a child, who was not immunized or who has had their immunization weaken over time is at very grave risk if they contract these diseases. That is one of the big reasons why vaccines are mandated: to try and prevent the once common epidemics where otherwise healthy adults died from mumps, measles and chicken pox.

Also consider that a child who does not get the vaccine and who is not exposed to the disease as a child stands a good chance of dying if they contract it in their 30s or 40s.

:wow:

it's only Europeans, with centuries of natural immunity from exposure behind them, for whom it poses less (not "no") risk.

As for mumps, have you not heard the saying "If you get it as a kid, you don't get it as an adult. If you get it as an adult, you don't get kids"?

edit: spacing

The same disease that made me and my brother sick and miserable for days before our bodies fought it off wrecked this kid's life. I met her when I was in high school.

My baby sister caught all the stuff my brother and I brought home from elementary school, and the poor baby had a pretty sickly childhood after that, although when her tonsils and adenoids were finally removed at age 9 years she finally started to be a lot healthier.

I am old enough to remember the last great polio epidemic. When the vaccine became available, parents in my town lined up around the block to have their children vaccinated at the local elementary school. Every parent feared polio.

My own babies were born in 1975 and 1979, and I had them vaccinated for everything. I know there is controversy over thymerisol -- but childhood illnesses are not trivial.

Most Americans simply are not old enough to remember.

Hekate

Do not question, stop your bitching, get a needle in the ass because thats what we do here. You will do as your told and we will agree with it.

Go F*ck Yourself this is the dumbest, most lamest example of line walkers ...

My Grandfather had polio, one leg was shorter than the other... he lived to 65 and then died (30 years ago)... Thats that... people die, many people today do not vaccinate... many people do ... but don't fucking judge them on their choices, each one acts on their childs own best interest as they believe...

western medicine has used bloodletting and the such.... that was modern medicine, vaccines are modern medicines, people would be wise to be wary of it...

...is your problem, and any children you may have now or in the future.

Ignorance and hostility will not protect you.

Hekate

and they usually give religious or conscious objector. Sometimes they ask me, as the School Nurse, what I recommend. Frankly, I don't care one way or another.

But I always tell them a story about something that happened to my daughter and I.

Once, when she was in the 3rd grade, we went to a pioneer cemetery. We saw Sam Houston's final resting place, and as we stood on a bluff she noticed many of the tombstones had lambs on them. She ask what that meant. Pandemics and medical history are a bit of a hobby with me and I knew the answer, but I wanted her to figure it out. I told her to figure out the persons age when they died hand showed her how to do it.

I watched her as she figured the first, she got sad when she figured the second one, and by the third grave stone- she said-'Mom, these were all children'. I told her that you learn a lot of history in a grave yard. And I then explained that it was not unusual at the turn of the last century, before the days of immunization for only 1 in 4 children to live to adulthood. Standing on that bluff, you could see the enormity of it all.Vaccines, public water and sewer improvement have so improved public health to the point now that in America-it is rare for children to die. We have forgotten the lessons our grandparents learned.

I go on to tell the parents that it is their choice, but then I remind them about what could happen in a total health care breakdown, and that their un vaccinated children could be at greatest risk and it would be impossible to vaccinate them. If they scoff about a public health breakdown....I just mention that folks didn't think New Orleans would be wiped out like it was either.

I know how it will go in a bad situation. There won't be any vaccine for any price (I have experienced that with the flu vaccines). And these folks will have to live with their conscious if their children die of a very preventable disease.

Me, I could care less if some of you decide not to be vaccinated and make the same decision for your child, but my daughter and I will continue to get our shots. We put our faith in the doctors and scientists that wanted to eradicate these diseases for the betterment of mankind.

PS-I contracted German Measles when I was an infant and they settled in my eyes. Mom said I was 2 weeks blindfolded to prevent light from blinding the still developing eyes. She knew it was bad because I never tried to take the blind fold off. I had glasses from an early age, but we are thankful that there were no other problems.

Those graveyards full of children and the women's references to "my first family" and "my second family" in "Mrs. Mike" were unforgettable. That was the harsh reality for most of human history -- except for extremely isolated populations like the Hawaiians, who were healthy but developed no immunities, so that introduced diseases killed them like flies.

All my life I think I've been interested in medical history and pandemics, although I am not a nurse or doctor. It felt creepy to me that my own children were NOT vaccinated for smallpox (I have my scar). I knew smallpox had finally been eliminated from the planet, but I didn't quite trust it yet....and besides, I also knew that both the US and the USSR kept some of the virus back in freezers in their labs.

I remember the last polio pandemic, and as my parents got both Time and Life magazines the photos are burned into my memory even though I was not old enough to read all the text. Damn tootin my parents hustled their four kids out to be vaccinated against polio as soon as it became available. It was a modern miracle.

Our schools fail our high schoolers by not teaching them about public health issues. I want to say that the people who believe that vaccinations are a worse threat than the diseases they prevent are idiots, but I know that they are only terribly, terribly ignorant. And their ignorance will not protect them or their children in a disaster. The Crone knows that death and disease are both realities that respect no one.

Thanks for the validation.

Hekate

Many times a perfectly valid point may be rendered irrelevant when it becomes hidden behind contempt and hostility.

"Be all that you are told to be.... get in line, vacinate and exit." I don't see it that way at all-- more like, "Take advantage of our system's safety-net whenever possible..."

But then I don't doubt that you see it only as an "either-or" proposition...

There was no way to treat the men at the post, except to quarantine them. He was probably 18-19 years old. He lived to be 87.

The illness left him completely deaf in one ear and partially deaf in the other.

Unlike so many others....

As it is, we have a few kids contracting (and dying?)
of pertussis ("whooping cough") each year.

Maybe folks should be required to view a video of
these kids before signing their "religious" exemption?

Tesha

That vaccine wore off in me, but apparently all of the other kids at school remained protected. That's fortunate, because pertussis could easily kill an unvaccinated infant if a susceptible classmate had gone home with the disease...


:scared:

with the antibody involved, but with the preservative.

Because the drug companies wanted to save a few bucks, they included a preservative called Thimerosol in the dosing containers which gave it a longer shelf life.

Thimerosol is mercury-based, and may be responsible for the autism boom of the late 70's, 80s and early 90s.

What's worse are the religiously insane whackjobs who insist that no child should be given a particular vaccination because "Gawd don't want 'em t' hayve it."

Some vaccines still have Thiomersol in them. You have to ask about this before you allow a vaccine to be given. I would not receive a vaccine with Thiomersol in it.

Once a child is over 36 months, the flu vaccine given will contain a tiny amount of thiomersol.

The shrill shriekers of the neo-Luddite anti-vaccine "movement" are pretty much akin to the "there is no such thing as global climate change" crowd. Fingers in ears, screaming hysterically to drown out the truth. How to deal with them? The words "island" and "quarantine" come to mind. They risk everyone's health with their fantastical, fundamentalpatient, paranoid delusions.

Jeez, the propaganda over this is getting OLD.

So-How about a HUGE dose of Mercury with YOUR fish? Yeah, I thought not. :eyes:

Do a Google search on "fish" and "mercury." Most of the more than 2 million hits will confirm that tonnes of mercury are released into the atmosphere every year through natural processes and that 2,000 to 3,000 tonnes more are released through direct human activity. Nearly all of that mercury eventually precipitates into soil and water where it is absorbed by plants and animals. Runoff from tainted rain and snow ends up in fresh water lakes where it becomes concentrated; fish in these lakes will typically build up high amounts of mercury in their flesh, as much as 1 ppm (part per million) or higher.

One ppm of mercury is the "legal limit" of what can be sold as foodstuff, either to be eaten directly by humans (broiled trout, anyone?) or to enter into the human food chain (fishmeal fertilizer for your garden or pelleted fish derivatives to feed farm-raised fish and other food animals.) That means that food with 0.9999 ppm of mercury can legally be sold (assuming that the FDA has tested it for mercury; the vast majority of fish and other food which may be poisoned is not screened and chances are very good that fish you catch yourself will exceed this standard.)

Most formulations of Thiomersol contain about 5 ppm of mercury. Only a tiny amount of the preservative is added to the vaccine mixture; the shot your child gets will typically have only 0.5 ppm to 0.83 ppm of mercury, significantly LOWER than the bass, salmon or mussels you serve to your family on a regular basis.

Oh, and where do you stand on coal-burning power plants, the ones that Clinton and Gore repeatedly refused to require adherence to EPA standards for mercury emissions? Older power plants in the United States produce much of the mercury that has tainted fish and shellfish in the eastern United States and Europe? (Because of prevailing winds, most of the mercury and other poisons in the western half of the US come from China and other Asian countries.)

If there really is a link between mercury and autism -- and all research supports that there is no link -- you have bigger... um,... fish to fry than vaccines.

because mercury is poison and it affects growing brains.

One is in the fish and thermometers and is deadly, the other is what's in Thimerosol and it's been tested to not be.

Ethyl Mercury - C2 H5 Hg+.
Methyl Mercury - C H3 Hg+.

They are TWO different compounds that react differently to the body. Calling them both mercury simply because they contain the element mercury is inaccurate and muddles the discussion.

calling them both mercury simply because they contain the element mercury - sorry but that doesn't make sense

they're compounds. They're different. Treating them as the same thing is ignorant and wrong.

As far as who said one is safe and the other not, the answer is many different studies in respected peer reviewed journals.

Both are toxic. But with toxicity, concentration is critical. The concentration of ethyl mercury that's metabolized from thimerasol is far to low to be toxic.

Methyl mercury in fish has a much lower concentration, but unlike ethyl mercury it bioaccumulates. So every time you eat fish the concentration goes up.

The MMR vaccine does not, and NEVER DID contain thimerosal. (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/thimerosal/faqs-thimerosal.htm)

Not to mention the chemical difference between mercury as found in fish and mercury as found in thimerosal. :eyes:

by big Pharma?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7395411/deadly_immunity/
According to a CDC epidemiologist named Tom Verstraeten, who had analyzed the agency's massive database containing the medical records of 100,000 children, a mercury-based preservative in the vaccines -- thimerosal -- appeared to be responsible for a dramatic increase in autism and a host of other neurological disorders among children.

He says so himself.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/4/932

Because the findings of the first phase were not replicated in the second phase, the perception of the study changed from a positive to a neutral study. ... A neutral study carries a very distinct message: the investigators could neither confirm nor exclude an association, and therefore more study is required. The CDC has taken its responsibility and is currently undertaking such additional study.

So much for the evil conspiracy. :eyes:

right here it is saying the result cannot conclude if it does or does not do neurological damage to our kids, yet poster after poster on this thread is calling parents concerned with their kids health hysterical, fear based, stupid, dark ages, fundamentalist, lower than scum. yet there still seems the POSSIBILITY it is doing neurological damage to our children. people actually have the audacity to slam parents concerned. and to dismiss parents that have experienced problems with their children after having gotten the vaccinations?

and people on this thread is ignoring this. dismissing it. even as you post the very fact you seem to be dismissing it.

i dont get it. what am i missing

First off, the amount of mercury compounds in Thimerosol is minute; you are likely to find a higher quantity of mercury in a serving of wild-caught fish nowadays than what you get in a childhood's worth of vaccines.

Second, the link between autism and mercury is not supported by actual research. The symptoms of mercury poisoning, and how mercury affects child development, have been very well studied. While long-term exposure to mercury can cause mental retardation, those issues bear no similarity to autism. Also, mercury poisoning is detectable even in tiny amounts; the vast majority of children with autism do not have mercury levels higher than non-autistic individuals in their environment.

Third, the vast majority of people who have been exposed to Thimerosol and similar vaccine preservatives have shown no trace of autism. For there to be a link, there would have to be a noticeably higher amount of autism among people who received vaccines with Thimerosol when compared to control groups of people who received vaccines without the preservative and people who did not receive any vaccines. No such correlation has ever been found.

Refreshing to see someone did their homework.

Elements of the mercury-causes-autism crowd have begun to send death threats to researchers in the field and are threatening to, in various ways, harm or stop their ability to do research.

They've also begun to threaten autistic rights activists who won't deliver their party line (which is, more or less, "mercury causes autism"/"autism is a fate worse than death"/"better I be killed with insane abuses of chelation than allowed to live as myself"). My neighbor, a nonverbal autistic person, is being stalked by some of them who've threatened to both rape and murder her. I've seen the threats myself, and have helped her with some of her phone communication between her lawyer and the police, so I know firsthand these heartless, mindless, fanatics are morphing into terrorists.

Exactly what religion doesn't believe in vaccines? I know there's a lot of make it up yourself religions out there, but does any "major" religion frown on it?

Some fundamentalists and far-right evangelicals don't vaccinate their kids.

In Michigan, we have the religion opt-out and a philosophical opt-out. I used the latter since our kids always got reactions to the vaccines every single time. We spaced them out further, and now that they're older, they're handling them much better.

Both kids were sleeping through the night (mostly--they were still babies) at six weeks, and both of them stopped after their six weeks vaccines, and we didn't even give them all of them at those visits. For our daughter, she took almost a year to sleep through the night, and for our son, it was several months. You can't tell me there are no problems with those things. I've dealt with fever, swelling, screaming for hours, rigidity, and sleep problems. My kids did outgrow that stuff, but it was awful when they were babies.

"The Bible is very clear that disease is God's judgement against sin. Vaccinations interfere with God's use of disease; it is a sinful presumption that one can affect God's judgement. Therefore, vaccinations are a sin of blasphemy."

Seriously, I've actually seen this argument used by Talibangelicals.

but Jesus is pretty clear on the subject. His two most important commandments are to love God and love your neighbor. He stresses your love of your society time and time again. Frankly neglecting the health of society by being a carrier to an easily vaccinated disease isn’t a great way to love thy neighbor. Jesus spent A LOT of time healing the sick for a reason.

Most evangelicals I grew up with wouldn't have bought that line. It's more of a fundy argument, actually. Most far-right evangelicals I've run into who are against vaccines are more against it because of some of the ingredients. If you get a list of ingredients of some of those, you'll find things like bovine cellular matter and fetal tissue and such. Really. That's why some evangelicals are against it.

It would make sense, but I don't know that for sure.

Maybe it depends on their community, too.

Its a shame children have to suffer for their parents' stupidity.

Killing other people because of one's own religious stupidity does not count as removing oneself from the gene pool.

On the other hand if the daughter catches the mumps at school, stays home sick, is cared for by the non-immunized parent who contracts it and dies as a result.... That might qualify.

It is keeping your genes out of the pool.

if the father doesn't die, but is rendered unable to give her any more little brothers or sisters!

Anything that stops you spreading your genes removes you from the gene pool, even if it is not fatal.

:wtf:

I think not.

The medical industry and big pharma did not watch out for the safety of the million plus kids that are now part of the autism epidemic!

The vaccination schedule needs to be revamped in a big way and they haven't done it.

I don't blame parents one bit for being afraid & rejecting such a poor plan that harmed so many kids. :puke:

of immunizations like that. Do you have a source?

BTW, there still isn't concrete evidence that vaccinations are the cause of autism.

Whatever research that is being done is paid for/influenced by the pharma giants. My, how convenient. :sarcasm:

As for your very obvious "got a link for that?" -I have a family member with Autism who had 16 shots before 14 months of age.

So are you gonna say that sounds sane or safe IN ANY WAY? Or are you gonna find a way to twist that like the pro big pharma groupies do?

BTW-How would you like some MERCURY with your fish? Yeah, I thought not.

:eyes:

"You disagree with my unfounded, unsupported claims. Therefore you are a poopy-head."

:eyes:

Overlords will ever fund that research!

klever

Here is a link to get you started...

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-06-20.html

The article in question is toward the bottom of the page. Has a nice long explanation, research data and a wide variety of sources to go over at your convenience.

Usually, here at DU, when one makes a claim...they usually provide a source other than 'hey, my family member got it'. For the record, my grandson is autistic. He is the only one out of our entire family (and we all had immunizations just like everyone else and we aren't autistic) to have autism. No one else.

And if you even did an ounce of research on the subject then you'll find that the mercury in fish bit is in no WAY connected to what the focus is in immunizations. Please, read through this thread and the article I posted a link to. There are some very smart people here who can also provide even more proof that your belief is just plain wrong.

never let that be revealed.

:rofl:

puppies are free

YOU may learn a few things.

You say you have a grandson with Autism...well if that's the case, I would say you are in deep denial.

BTW-I should think your research pales in comparison to the depth and scope of my research but I'm not gonna sit here and play link for link with you to prove it.

Again, read Jenny McCarthys book & the RFK Jr. article.

:rofl:

But at least I provided a link. I've got more, but I'm sure you'll dismiss them for one reason or another.

My daughter and I went round and round about this. We threw articles at each other, snatched up books on the subject and the whole nine yards. She thought that it was vaccinations and I wasn't convinced. Now, neither of us are convinced given what we've read so far. She'd tell you because she was just about as hardcore about it as you, but was convinced by all the research we did. We started out trying to find ways to help Steven. So far all we have is the GFCF diet which has helped alleviate some of his issues plus the special school he attends. He's only been on the diet for a few months now so it's still early.

I can only make assumptions about your research since you failed to provide a link.

And anyone who doubts her is just a DINO.

So, tell us again how much mercury is found in the MMR vaccine? I'm sure you know, as you've "researched the hell" out of this subject?

If the first two references you mention in this argument are a book by Jenny McCarthy, and a Rolling Stone article by RFK Jr. are representative of your depth and scope of research I have to raise one eyebrow ala Spock.

The science does not point to a connection. I don't understand how you could actually have researched this matter in depth and not discovered this.

of 7+ years of research to people on this thread in order to prove it to anyone. Do your own research, though I doubt you will since you dismiss someone as highly respected as RFK Jr.

Let's put it this way: the MMR/Thimerosal/Mercury link to Autism has not been DIS-proven. The pharma giants and the CDC have muddied the waters totally and any studies being done are skewed how want them to be to satisfy their agenda. Like someone else said on this thread-the pharma giants are in *s back pocket. That alone should make people suspicious of anything they say or do regarding this matter.

Cui bono? That's the question.

I read the actual scientific studies done on the matter. RFK Jr. is respected, but not in this field of study. I respect Paul Krugman as far as economics go, but I'm not going to research a physics question by reading an article by him on the subject.

The fact is that not just government and big pharma studies, but independent studies, and even independent studies in Europe have not been able to show a link. The one study that the anti-vaccination proponents generally raise, was torn to shreds because even high school students were able to see that it was a horrendously bad study. It was refuted later by it's own authors.

Who benefits from what? All the statistics show that the children benefit no matter what from receiving these vaccines. In fact even if the vaccines caused autism, it would save far more lives than it not given. Would you rather 10,000 children die of Pertussis before the age of one, or 1,000 children get autism from the vaccination?

Also think about this...

The vaccine manufacturer's charge far more for the non-thimerosol vaccines because they don't have a shelf life, and therefore have to be in constant production and cost more to produce. The profit for the vaccine manufacturer's is much higher making non-thimerosal vaccinations than it is making thimerosol ones. So who benefits from the anti-vaccination hysteria? Big Pharma. They make people worried about a subject that there is no need to be worried about according to the hard science, and willing, thanks to the government removing Thimerosal from vaccines in the early 90s without any supporting science to do so, to pay more out of pocket for those vaccines.

Cui Bono?

1) The children just to be getting vaccines
2) Big Pharma because they make more money on non-thimerosal vaccinations
3) Insurance Companies because they can then charge you a higher premium for health care because of the rise in vaccination costs.
4) Corrupt politicians for letting these laws get passed in return for cash in their warchest.

Sorry, but your list of "who benefits" SUCKS big time. I really don't think TRUE liberals would find this vile behavior from big pharma & * Co a humane act.

FYI-The losers are the children and family that were/are vaccine damaged-their lives are RUINED. Yet you are OK with that. Simply UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE!

Meanwhile, For the big pharma bastards it's a total win-win. They made BILLIONS pushing the vaccinations and they get away scot free by not having to pay out BILLIONS to those they so cavalierly hurt.

Do you really enjoy defending those who have done this to infants-to children?!

Well, I've got one word for big pharma and for you and for your buddies on this thread who defend this indefensible behavior.


KARMA

i can say i do not believe anyone would have the balls to say something so disgusting out loud for others to hear, but more and more today i am hearing the ugliness coming from people and they dont even have a friggin clue

good to know, the struggles my son will endure for a lifetime is worth it to this person.

i am shaking i am so mad. i know this is the attitude. people dont give a shit about all these kids struggling. and screw the parent. that is what we sign up for when we conceive. but the children suffering every day of their lives trying to fit in, be normal, just fuckin get along

but it is damn worth it

dont fix or own or admit a problem, just sacrifice

is because she has the common sense to say that this epidemic needs to be looked at seriously and fairly. That each child needs to be looked at on an individual basis instead of just jabbing them with a needle because the pharma giants and the CDC said so.

And people on this thread viciously laughed at that. Laughed at that. :wtf:

Just the height of cruelty and stupidity.

Some compassion would be nice for these babies and kids that didn't deserve this to begin with, wouldn't it?

in order to protect an agenda, in this case reinforcing the use of vaccination, do not look at any problem, issues, concerns. keep a blind eye and cover the ears and at all cost if anyone dare speak out attack with calling names of hysteria or whatever else to not have to address the issue.

the whole right see so many of the issues with the republicans as a whole and bush specifically. BUT you cannot get them to look, admit, own, say out loud there might be a problem. at that point they have to own some responsibility for their own stupidness, or selfishness at the cost of others. or they have to admit that their party has problems. much better to resort to names instead of fixing a problem

i cannot believe all these people that so easily state how smart they are, and anyone that wants more from our govt, pharm, and laws are dismissed with name calling, a simple how stupid they are, the hypocrisy in intelligence.

why must win at all cost, be at the cost of our children. ego is not so fragile.

You are right-they won't even look underneath the surface because they have an agenda.

That agenda is to defend rethuglican policy or they work for big pharma or benefit from big pharma in some way.

childs life, who he is away from him, from his parents from the world as a whole. change this person for good. and tell me it is a worthy sacrifice.

this is man made. at least disease is nature at its worst. not man deciding some ill effect to children is worth it for a whole

this mentality

it is prevelent today. torture the small mass. it is worth it for the whole
sacrifice a small country, it is worth it to protect us

how about.... if we save from disease, and we FIX THE DAMN PROBLEM AND NOT SACRIFICE SOME OF OUR CHILDREN

your small amount of your post here is exactly the feeling i get from people that refuse to look at the issue. refuse to listen to the parent. my child is WORTH THE SACRIFICE to you

human doesnt get any more disgusting

And to think I wasted an opportunity yesterday when I posted about people who believe what Penn and Teller have to say

If almost every kid is getting 16 shots by 14 months, then kids who would be autistic regardless will also have gotten 16 shots by 14 months. And kids who are healthy will have gotten 16 shots by 14 months. The fact that both happened doesn't mean one caused the other.

pointing out one of the basic facts about statistics... correlation does not equal causation!

Your chain of reasoning is: A friend wearing a red shirt was struck by a car. Wearing red shirts causes internal bleeding, broken bones and concussions.

to authoritatively decree that "16 before the age of 14 months" is unacceptable?

disease before the age of 5 or 6 are acceptable?

The drug companies are also getting help from powerful lawmakers in Washington. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who has received $873,000 in contributions from the pharmaceutical industry, has been working to immunize vaccine makers from liability in 4,200 lawsuits that have been filed by the parents of injured children. On five separate occasions, Frist has tried to seal all of the government's vaccine-related documents -- including the Simpsonwood transcripts -- and shield Eli Lilly, the developer of thimerosal, from subpoenas.
-In 2002, the day after Frist quietly slipped a rider known as the "Eli Lilly Protection Act" into a homeland security bill, the company contributed $10,000 to his campaign and bought 5,000 copies of his book on bioterrorism. The measure was repealed by Congress in 2003
-- but earlier this year, Frist slipped another provision into an anti-terrorism bill that would deny compensation to children suffering from vaccine-related brain disorders.

No one even addresses these secretive and diabolical legislative moves made by Frist which were obviously made to cover up something!

Instead it's let's target the messenger instead of the message.

My kids have terrible immune systems and lots of problems. I thought it was caused by vaccinations because they would have such adverse affects from them, so with the younger two, I held off getting their vaccinations until they were around two years old. I'm not sure whether the auto immune condition came before the shots, or the shots brought on the auto immune problems. The baby just had her first set of shots early this summer and she was broke out in blisters all over her body for eight weeks. I took her back to the doctor and he said it was just chicken pox not a reaction to the shots, but my other kids have had chicken pox, and this was something different. I will probably continue with her vaccinations, but I sure have mixed feeling about it.

instead of being herded like cattle through the pediatricians office on a vaccination schedule. She also advises parents to go with their intuition in regards to their children.

She is spot on.

BTW-Welcome to DU! :hi:

and a total of 41 by 24 months.

See www.trackingvaccinations.com for details.

From wwww.trackingvaccinations.com (with quotes from the American Pediatric Association) noting that some of the shots have more than one vaccine in them; see key) --

"Below is a generalized immunization schedule according to 2006 American health guidelines.
(adding up the number of diseases, equals 2 doses a week!)
at least,

Birth -- Hep B = <1>
2 months -- Hep B, DTaP, Hib, IPV, PCV = <10>
4 months -- DTaP, Hib, IPV, PCV = <8>
6 months -- Hep B(6-18 months), DTaP, Hib, IPV (6-18 mo), PCV = <9>
12-15 months -- DTaP, Hib, MMR, PCV, Var (12-18 mo) = <6>
subtotal = 37

24 months -- MPSV4 =<7>
4-6 years -- DTaP, IPV, MMR =<9>
11-12 years -- Td =<2> = total = 54 !

total = 54 designer diseases, 37 under 18 mos!

Key with number of diseases per dose
DTaP : Diphtheria, Tetanus, & Acellular Pertussis (whooping cough) =<3>
Hib : Hemophilus influenza b / Meningitis =<1>
Hep B : Hepatitis B =<1>
IPV : Inactivated Polio Vaccine =<3> varieties of polio]
MMR : Measles, Mumps,Rubella =<3>
MPSV4 : Meningococcal <1>, (this bacteria lives in our throats)
PCV : Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine =<7> (9,236 more to go, SEE Vaccine PCV)
Td : Tetanus and Diphtheria only =<2>
Var : Varicella (chicken pox) =<1>"

anyway, sans benefit of immunization? More than sixteen, m'dear.

on edit: corrected my incomplete pre-post editing.

NOT!!

And her kid will put other kids at risk. :banghead:

There have been measles outbreaks , just last year in Boston.

That's one disease, among many, kids don't want to get if they can help it, imho.

That's what pisses me off. My kids take the (incredibly small) risk of brain damage from vaccines and their kids just get to reap the benefits of a living in a population where so many dangerous diseases have been eradicated by vaccines. :grr:

Sid

Hubby's medical degree must've been mail-order or something, too. :eyes:

There are legitimate issues with vaccines. Our kids had horrible reactions as babies, so we have staggered the shots, and we have put a few off until they're older. Too bad we're stupid, though. Whatever.

you are still getting your kids vaccinated, albeit on a different schedule than currently recommended by the Pediatric groups. Now if you are forgoing vaccinations I think I could well place you in the "stupid and ignorant" group.

I would say that those who do not vaccinate their children for pertussis, diphtheria, HIB, etc are ignorant and stupid. There are now many childhood diseases that are now not killing our kids because of the vaccines. When I was the microbiology supervisor of a children's hospital in the mid-west (early 1980's) it was common to have infants and older children die from several forms of meningitis and other childhood illnesses. I can tell you from personal experience that watching a child die is not a pleasant experience, especially if it could have been prevented. Because of the advent of vaccines, deaths in the US are now negligible for those organisms that are available, unfortunately deaths do still occur.

What about the research that says that the M of the MMR for some reason takes up residence in the gut and can cause GI problems and Chron's later in life? There's research in England going into that. When our kids were babies, the research was pointing to having measles and mumps too close together, which would include the combined vaccine.

My doctor gave me the same speech about watching children die, and my hubby actually was accidentally called to run a code on a toddler who'd choked and ended up dying. His mom had gone to the wrong part of the hospital, and then they called the adult team. Hubby still feels awful about losing that little guy and feeling him die under his hands. I understand being angry that people seem to be putting their kids directly in harm's way, but I also understand parental anger at mercury in the vaccines and other problematic ingredients and anger at no one telling them the real reasons for the shots.

According to the chief of peds at Rainbow Childrens (Hubby asked him during his peds rotation in med school after our daughter was born), the Hep B vaccine is given to babies because they can get to them. In the US, it's almost entirely sexually transmitted, but it's harder to get teens in to the doctor than babies for well-child visits. So, they give it to them on their first day of life. That makes no sense. The chickenpox vaccine, according to the articles in NEJM, was to cut down on parental missed work days. The latest studies show that, since it needs a booster when they didn't originally think it would, the cost is now more for the vaccine than the lost work time.

Most parents who opt out that I know still do DTaP (or at least the tetanus shot, but that's hard to find) and polio and Hib. They're upset about all the other ones and the MMR (which we just postponed and the kids did pretty well with).

black or white, pro or con. few seem to consider the concern of the parent for the very health of their child. wish is ultimately THE job of a parent. the chicken pox shot pissed me off the most as an unnecessary vaccine. and concerns me the most as my children get older, whether the vaccination lasts thru adult, which i have not had an answer to yet.

but your post perfectly articulates my thoughts, feelings and concerns.

That's a recent decision by the AAP, so ask your kids' doctor about it. :hug:

i go to our peditrician periodically. he hasnt said anything. now, i will be sure to ask him. but really, i have not heard anyone talking about this. how much have we set up our kids to get chicken pox in adulthood instead of childhood. am i missing something here?

thanks for the info

I forget when my kids are to get their boosters--I think it's two or three years later.

They're finding that one shot doesn't give life-long immunity, so they're doing two now. Who knows what will change in ten or twenty years. They're finding now that the pertussis vaccine needs another adult booster or two, so they are now telling docs to make sure that their older patients get the new tetanus/pertussis adult booster to make sure the older population doesn't get pertussis (which often leads into pneumonia, etc.). I know Hubby is trying to get to all of his older patients at risk this fall.

i have not heard this. i am in as much a position as most to hear that NOW my kids needs another booster to keep it going. yet i havent heard a thing. i will be sure to check it out monday with my doctor. but the point being, we are mandated by the state of texas to get this shot and sittin in the unknown that 2-3 yrs (which would be about now for my kids) we are to get another. how ridiculous is this that we have taken away the ability for a young child to get chicken pox and have set up an environment where they will get it at an older age. and why in the world would we demand a child forgo a relatively harmless illness, chicken pox, so a parent doesnt lose time at work, only for this group of kids to have to keep up boosters to keep from getting the illness. the more i am reading your posts, the more foggy the whole issue gets for me.

i will certainly have to check this out this week. it is making no sense what so ever. and i really have not heard any of this.

There was a whole dust-up in NEJM and JAMA about this a year ago or so. Several editorials pointed out the fact that a booster then negated any monetary value in the vaccine vs. the illness, which I thought was interesting.

Please ask your doctor. Maybe he hasn't been keeping up on it?

What about the research that says that the M of the MMR for some reason takes up residence in the gut and can cause GI problems and Chron's later in life?

First, is that the measles 'M", the mumps 'M', or an interaction between the two (the research was pointing to having measles and mumps too close together)?

Whichever it is, that could provide a trigger mechanism for autism, some forms of which have been linked to GI problems ("leaky gut syndrome"). (Autism is not a "disease" as such but rather a behaviorally defined syndrome with multiple etiology; thus, we will never find "the cause", much less "the cure", for autism.) That would account for the extensive anecdotal evidence pointing to some form of link, while accommodating the growing body of evidence that the thimerosal angle is a dead end.

Autism seems to be a wiring problem of the brain. One would think the problem might start during neurol tube development or later in-utero as the nervous system develops. Hopefully time will tell.

At least, that was what the research was showing when my kids were babies. I can't find the original links yet, but I'll keep looking. They might have disproven that research in the time since.

I am assuming that it is Crohn's disease and not Chron's disease you are referencing. I have not seen that corollary between a vaccine and Crohn's disease. I would like to read the articles for reference.

The only vaccine our kids did not get was the chickenpox vaccine. I knew several pediatric groups who were involved in most of the research on vaccines for children and they were not ready (at the time) to endorse the chickenpox vaccine. I don't go along with giving a newborn vaccines on the day of birth. Vaccines should be started one to two weeks after they get home from the hospital. Vaccine reactions can mask more serious issues therefore any pediatrician that is good will not allow a vaccine to be given to a newborn. Our kids did not get any vaccines right after birth because our pediatrician would not allow it and she discussed the issues with us. My being a microbiologist and my clinical research experience did not hurt in the discussions. I have also worked on a vaccine study for HSV2 that did not work but most of my work with new drugs in oncology so I do have a basic understanding of vaccines and the clinical trials needed for approval. On a side note our twins ended up getting the chickenpox. The second one got a really bad case from his brother.

There has been a lot of negative press concerning pediatric vaccines and in almost all of the cases the information has been less than accurate.

When I find it, I'll put it here. I'll see what I can find on Hubby computer upstairs (with the med journals' passwords), too. I remember he looked into it a lot when our kids were babies and felt there was enough evidence to at least hold off on the vaccine and do it when they were older, which is what we did.

This is a hypothesis that was investigated, but not supported.

Children have been having Crohns since long before MMR was invented, but until the 1970s it was assumed that only adults could have Crohns; therefore children, who had it, were diagnosed as delicate, suffering from frequent infections, or just as the emotionally disturbed offspring of neurotic parents. I had the condition since at least the age of 5 (without any MMR vaccine!), but wasn't diagnosed for 11 years because of this assumption. Hence the apparent increase in diagnosis of childhood Crohns.

Blaming everything on vaccines is not only dangerous because it deters people from vaccinating their children, but also because it can divert attention and resources from studying the real causes of Crohns, autism, etc.

From the research, one group was of kids who had mumps and measles within a year of each other, another group the combined vaccine, and a third group that had separate vaccines more than a year apart. The incidence of Crohn's was much higher in the groups with the combined vaccine and the actual illnesses. It was a peer reviewed article, but it was awhile back. I'm not up on the latest research, but I'm looking it up.

Here's a site that mentions it:
http://www.thefamilygp.com/crohns-disease.htm

I am not at all convinced of that either. First of all, the research is very conflicting. Secondly, childhood Crohns even nowadays can take a relatively long time to diagnose; and children who are somewhat debilitated due to already having Crohns symptoms are probably more likely to get infectious diseases. Then when their Crohns is later diagnosed, it may be blamed on their having had measles, or other infection.

Genetic factors seem to be quite important in Crohns. Dietary factors can contribute significantly to the *severity* of Crohns, but probably not to actually getting the disease. Apart from that, there is no clear evidence of a cause, though people have been looking for one for a long time.

in isolation, whether by vaccination or having measles that is the problem. It is the simultaneous exposure to both measles and mumps, which is deliberate in the MMR vaccine. Natural exposure rarely occurs simultaneously. Given that there appears to be a link, and there is a simple way to avoid the link (by separating the components of the vaccination and giving them at different times), why take the risk.

contracted shortly after the MMR vaccination, I am glad to have another voice of reason for individualized review of the necessity and timing for vaccinations.

My daughter is now a teen and, having lived with ulcerative colitis for more than 10 years, is at such a high risk for cancer she has to have a colonoscopy every other year. There is a good chance she will ultimately need her colon removed to prevent or cure colon cancer. Needless to say, obtaining health insurance for her is a nightmare. Although I was skeptical of the overuse of vaccinations for some relatively benign illnesses from before she was born, the MMR vaccination was one about which I did not have any serious doubts. Had I known then what I later discovered (the link between combined exposure to mumps and measled and IBD) I would have insisted on separating the vaccination into their component parts. (In other words, I still would have had the vaccination, but I would not have exposed her to mumps and measles simultaneously.)

As to your recommendation with respect to HiB, although I agree with the recommendation for children who will be in daycare during the first two years of their lives because that is the setting in which exposure routinely occurs and the age at which contracting the disease is particularly dangerous. For children who are not routinely exposed to group childcare in the first 2-3 years of their lives I do not believe the benefits outweigh the risks. Fortunately, my daughter was about 6 months older than the cutoff at which the vaccination became mandatory for entry into kindergarten (an age when it the risks has nearly completely passed, so adding the vaccination at that age is nearly pointless - but the first age at which they can catch all of the children for enforcement).

As someone who has myself had Crohns since the age of 5, and who has followed the research, I can say that the MMR link has been essentially disproved. First of all, the increase in diagnosis of childhood IBD occurred BEFORE the introduction of MMR, and studies in both the UK and Finland have revealed no increase in IBD diagnosis since the introduction of MMR in either country. Secondly, recent studies have failed to support the original suggestion that there is measles (or any consistently-found type of) virus in the gut of IBD patients.

Here are a couple of links to studies:

www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/316/7146/1745 -

www.gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/38/2/211 -

The risk factors for IBD that are generally found are:

(1) Genetic. If you have a relative with IBD, you are more likely to get it yourself. It is also relatively common in people of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.

(2) Smoking - this is a factor in Crohns, but not, I think, in ulcerative colitis.

(3) Living in a temperate, Western, industrialized society (but my own theory of this is that those with the tendency to IBD are less likely to survive the early adversities of life in a developing country, or one where severe gastrointestinal infections are common).

Some doctors think that NSAIDs can increase the risk of IBD occurring in the first place or relapsing (I have been advised by my doctor against taking them), but I am not sure that there's real proof. There is no strong evidence that dietary factors cause IBD, but plenty of evidence that they can affect symptoms and recurrence risks in those who have it already - and to some extent need to be tailored to the individual.

Here are links to the Mayo Clinic's papers on risk factors.

www.mayoclinic.com/health/ulcerative-colitis/DS00598/DSECTION=4

www.mayoclinic.com/health/crohns-disease/DS00104/DSECTION=4


I do wish your daughter all the best. I can say that I had lots of problems as an undiagnosed child, but once I got on the right treatment, and also worked out what was the best diet for me, I've had a far healthier and more productive life than anyone expected at first, and have now been in remission for over 15 years, and have reached my 40s without needing any surgery for the condition (touch wood!)

and the second link is broken.

The first article addresses the link between exposure to measles virus and crohns. My concern, as i believe I clearly stated, is the near simultaneous exposure to measles and mumps. To the extent the articles at the first link addressed it at all, they did not clearly distinguish between exposure to measles alone, and the artificial exposure created by vaccinations. In addition, they alternated randomly between referring to the measles vaccine, and the MMR vaccination. These vaccinations are two different things - and it is only the latter triple whammy I believe poses a risk serious enough to be concerned about because of the artificial near simultaneous exposure which is created by packing all three into a single vaccination for reasons of convenience and enforcement of the vaccination law, not medical appropriateness. "Research" that is that so sloppy it does not even distinguish between two different vaccinations is not research I find particularly trustworthy. (There were similar problems with the links I found from that page, including the link to the Finnish reference).

I find it curious that you are willing to accommodate your own (and your doctor's) admittedly non-scientifically proven concerns about NSAIDS and diet by avoiding NSAIDS and following a specialized diet, but discount my concerns which are supported, at least, by studies correlating near simultaneous exposure to mumps and measles and increased incidence of IBD among individuals who received the vaccination. As I said in a previous post, there is a relatively easy way to avoid the exposure that has been linked to increased incidence of IBD - separate giving mumps vaccination from giving the measles vaccination by a period of time. That is certainly far easier than avoiding NSAIDS or following a special diet for life. There is no medical reason not to separate the vaccinations, and I would certainly recommend that path for anyone evaluating risks and benefits of vaccination - particularly anyone with other risk factors for IBD.

With respect to surgery, as I am sure you know, crohns is very different from ulcerative colitis. Living with UC for 10 years, whether or not it is in remission, dramatically increases the risk for colon cancer. The same is not true for crohns (aside from a variation informally referred to as crohns-colitis). In addition, surgery is rarely advised for crohns, since the affected area will likely find a new home in another remaining portion of the GI system. At 17 (12 years past diagnosis - 13-14 years past first symptoms), my daughter already has the colon cancer risk of her 70+ year old grandfather, despite the fact that she has been in nearly complete remission since age 6. Given her risk level at 17, it would surprise me if the risk does not mature to colon cancer (or at least to dysplasia) either of which would require the surgical removal of her colon.

I think that people should have a right to separate the vaccines if they wish to. However, there really seems to be little evidence that combined mumps and measles vaccine plays a role in IBD. I think D'Souza et al suggested it at first, but their later research goes against it. (I will check out a link as the one I gave seems not to work.) Since the MMR *is* usually given in combined form, then you would expect a rise in incidence since the introduction of MMR - the separate measles vaccine was given for some time before then. And there isn't; the rise in diagnosis occurred some time earlier.

Diet comes in, when you *already* have IBD and are trying to look at the best way to control symptoms. I am certainly not recommending that people follow a special diet to *avoid* IBD; not is anyone else as far as I know.

I hope that your daughter does well.

as the links you provided referred to vaccinations alternately (and without apparent distinction - or understanding that there may be a difference) as the measles vaccine and the MMR vaccine. If the reporting is that sloppy, I do not trust the underlying research to be any less sloppy.

According to most gastroenterologists, diet does not play a factor even in controlling symptoms. That does not match with the reality reported by most individuals with IBD. As with many cross-disciplinary diseases (auto-immune, and gastroenterology, at least), the medical folks do not know everything - and the disciplines actually have competing (and in their eyes, inconsistent) disease theories. Reality, as many folks with IBD have discovered, does not match the disease theory of either of these disciplines.

I am not criticizing you for finding a diet that assists you in controlling your crohns - merely pointing out that the medical establishment knows very little with respect to IBD - including, ultimately, what causes it or triggers it in someone with a predisposition. Because of this, and because most doctors don't like to admit that they don't know, and the official line we often run into is that we are wrong - even when what we are doing works. My daughter's gastroenterologist continues to insist that food allergies play no role in IBD, even after 12+ years of treating her with her ONLY remissions associated with (1) withdrawal of maintenance medication,(2) exposure to food to which she has a known allergy, or (3) a combination of the two. Her allergist, on the other hand, insists that IBD is 100% food allergy. The reality, is that one trigger for my daughter is an allergy that initiates or accelerates an immune system reaction, which continues as an auto-immune reaction even after the gut cleanses itself of the offending food.

So - I fully support your search find the best way to manage your illness whether or not it matches the accepted medical view.

I just get very frustrated when people who otherwise support taking control of ones' own health, and that of our families, treat me as evil incarnate for doing the same kind of research and decision making with respect to (and only with respect to) the use of vaccines. (That frustration is not all directed to you - your only "sin" was to tell me I was wrong with respect to the fairly thorough research related to MMR that I have already done.)

As to my daughter, even though her Prometheus Assay indicates she has an extremely severe case, she is able to control the inflammation with 5-ASA compounds and avoiding foods to which she is allergic. She is even able to return to remission using only modest increases in dosage of 5-ASA. That's pretty remarkable, given that her entire colon was already involved by the time she was diagnosed (the first remission did require steroids). Thanks for the best wishes - I wish you continued remissions, as well.

I've heard the current schedules were set up partly for the convenience of MD's--& parents who prefer to reduce the number of doctor visits. (Or reduce the number of co-pays, that keep getting higher.)

But you're analyzing the facts--not running from reality. If someone thinks that 16 vaccinations in the first 14 months of life is too much, they should ask their doctor about scheduling options. Not scream that vaccination is an EVIL PLOT!

Try getting a copy of the vaccine ingredients. Very, very hard to do, and when you do read through them, more than a little creepy. Eggs? Cow cellular matter? Fetal matter (honestly--I read it on one of the lists, I forget which vaccine)? Creepy. That can make any parent paranoid.

The problem I've run into with doctors, though, is that some can get very defensive (mostly for liabilty issues and because they hate seeing kids suffer) and angry if you bring it up at all or question the schedule even a little. We're lucky in that we have an amazing Med/Peds doc right now who's wonderful and more than willing to help figure out all of this and stay up on the research, but not everyone's doctor is as okay with coming up with a new vaccine schedule.

The message and attitude has been: get those vaccinations or else you are a bad parent.

So it's hardly hysteria when people find out that they've been hoodwinked and then sold done the river by * & Co and nothing can be done to fight the pharma giants because * signed a law that they can't be held accountable-EVER.

thinking outside of the box. i hear ya

to not vaccinate your kids. :eyes:

So, still smoking around your kids? Is that outside-the-box thinking too?

Sid

are all LIES from "experts" who are part of a huge anti-smoking conspiracy!

where there is little or no profit to be made; and indeed governments would be motivated to reduce unnecessary health spending?

it is not true and i have not stated that i am at any point and time. i want safe vaccinations for our children and i want the relationship to the escalations of brains diseases looked at and figure out what the problem is, whether it is due to vaccinations or something else in our environment without a dismissal of the issue and willing to sacrifice some of our children. whatever the problem is i want it fixed instead of ignoring and allowing it to continue.

just that the assumption that the motivation for some or all vaccinations comes from 'greedy Pharma' is misleading.

There has been a LOT of research on autism and other neurological disorders in children and their causes (e.g. Uta Frith's book "Autism"). The evidence seems to be that the main causes of autism are (1) genetics - the biggest factor; and (2) complications at or before birth, including prematurity, low birthweight and obsetric problems.

There has been a lot of research into vaccinations, which has *not* shown a link to autism. In Japan, the MMR vaccine was withdrawn for a few years because of quality problems. Nonetheless, autism diagnoses continued to rise as in every other country.

The reasons for increases in diagnosis seem to be mainly due to changes in diagnosis - many children who in the past were diagnosed as 'mentally handicapped' are now diagnosed more specifically as 'autistic'; and also the fact that far more children survive severe birth complications and prematurity (which can lead to autism) than in the past. It may also be that there are some environmental factors such as pollutants or infections that affect prenatal development. This has not been studied sufficiently, and I think is important, given the evidence for prenatal and birth complications playing a role in autism.

I do think that it's terribly important for more research to be done on autism, and methods of reducing the risk, and also of ameliorating the problems of autistic people. However, I think it's actually a disservice to autistic people when there is so much focus on vaccines - this can get in the way of research into more likely causes.

Although vaccinations will be given BEFORE the age of 4.

The current Vaccination schedules are absolutely insane. 16 Different vaccinations in the first year, using live Viruses some cultivated in rotten eggs, others in monkey kidneys? No flippin way.

However, that doesn't mean vaccinations are, default, bad. They should just be given on a sane schedule.

There is absolutely no need for Vaccines at all in the first 6 months as the mother's immunities are passed on via breast milk. There will be virtually NO vaccinations for the first 2 years of life (during which 80% of brain development occurs).

After age 2, vaccinations will be given on a staggered basis.. over the next 2 years (before school) all vaccinations will be received.

I nearly died of whooping cough at 9 months.

Just sayin'.

less, but as the years went they were adding two three vac with each visit. if i had it to do it all over, i would be doing it a whole lot differently

If you get them all when they're very young, then any potential danger of the shots is greater.

But if you put them off and they get one of the diseases the vaccines are for, the dangers of the diseases are greater too for babies and toddlers.

My fiance was given a battery of blood tests for immunities and she was found to have immunities for everything they test for. These immunities ARE passed on in breast milk during the first 6 months. So there is no reason for vaccinations at that time.

After 6 months, it is a matter of drastically limiting the vaccinations to those that are ABSOLUTELY Necessary and delaying the others until after age 2.

The DTP might be one we choose to give after 6 months, while withholding the MMR (and or attempting to find a split method, instead of combining them into one shot).

We are researching pediatricians in our area and one of the first questions I am asking is about vaccinations schedules and doctors unwilling to go with (what I call) a "sane" vaccination schedule are immediately removed from consideration.

I have no idea why you keep putting up this six month number. Breastmilk doesn't expire at six months.

Anyway, breastmilk isn't perfect as far as that goes. Although at least if your kid does get sick, he/she gets through it better with breastmilk than without.

Not that the breastmilk "expires".

the effectiveness only decreases assuming you start feeding your kids a lot of other food that displaces how much breastmilk they get.

(we were also told by a doctor friend that the developing digestive system dimishes some of the effectiveness as well)

If you believe in vacinations at some point (which I ultimately do) you have to have a beginning period. Between 0 and 6 months, there is virtually no reason to subject your child's developing system to live viruses. After 6 months, the effectiveness of immunization through breast milk diminishes and that seems a good time to start a SANE vacination program, limiting vacines to the absolutely necessary through the majority of the brain's development and continuing a sane vacination program from 2 years on.

Just like relgion, politics and most else, there are problems at both extremes. There are plenty of credible experts willing to question the potential effects of subjecting a devloping body to a plethora of live viri, just as much as there are credible experts willing to dismiss those risks without proper consideration in return for potential benefits.

Monkey kidneys.

We wouldn't want to anger Flooboomajoojoo, the evil monkey god.

:rofl:

Does that sound like a logical argument to you?

That argument does not make sense to you because St. Patrick was not really Irish.

:spray:

I acknowledge that there are professionals who know far more than I ever will about vaccinations and what the human immune system can handle.

Do you? Or does your instinct trump decades of controlled scientific study by educated experts?

I can find "studies" on both sides of the issue and "experts" on both sides.

What is interesting is that almost every medical product that is ultimately found to be harmful, at one time was found to be safe, some backed by many studies over many years.

So, at some point, you can look at the "experts" who say, "there is absolutely nothing wrong with injecting an infant with 16 live viruses, some cultivated in less than optimal circumstances" with a bit of skepticism and look instead towards the "Experts" who say, "there is a more intelligent way to do it, considering the amount of brain development that occurs in the first 2 years of life", based on instinct.

Instinct has a time and place, but this is not it. And you're deliberately obfuscating the core issue here (vaccination) by throwing red herrings around wildly instead of sticking to a reasoned argument.

I'm not sure what you think is a "red herring", since you decided not to specify, but to deny the place of instinct when there are 2 differing "researched" and "expert" opinions, is incredibly foolish.

since you didn't arrive at your conclusion through logical reasoning anyway.

I can at least say that my conscience is clear - by vaccinating my children, I am also protecting others who cannot get vaccinated.

You are putting them at risk. Disgusting.

Shared risk, shared reward. The societal compact. Used to be, that's what liberals stood for. Now it's a selfish "not my kid" attitude and knee-jerk distrust of careful research that's taken its place. Welcome to George Bush's America. Right here on DU - how sad.

since you didn't arrive at your conclusion through logical reasoning anyway.

I can at least say that my conscience is clear - by following a sane vaccination schedule, I am protecting my children.

You are putting them at risk. Disgusting.

Shared risk, shared reward. The societal compact. Used to be, that's what liberals stood for. Now it's a selfish "not my kid" attitude and knee-jerk distrust of careful research that's taken its place. Welcome to George Bush's America. Right here on DU - how sad.

Since all you can do is repeat my words. You must be impressed.

What's next? Putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "la la la, I can't hear you!"? :rofl:

Good night, and do let me know if you have an original thought, OK?

Your words applied so well to the exact point I was making, I figured showing your own words back to you would help you understand where you went so wrong.

It seems to have worked.

Your instinct trumps all careful analysis. :eyes:

You (and your child) are fortunate to live in a society where the vast majority of people still care about protecting others, and get vaccinated according to schedule. Don't worry - we'll protect you and your child from your ignorance.

Careful analysis leads to a indecisive answer, unless you close your mind and treat big pharma studies as a religion.

Luckily, I live in a society where more and more people are actually doing careful analysis and thus, not following the vaccination schedules. Don't worry, we are going to save your children's children from your ignorance.

Have you ever seen a 4 or 5 month old baby die of Hemophilus influenza meningitis. I have and it is not a pleasant site to see. Since the advent of the HIB vaccine deaths due to Hemophilus influenza meningitis have decreased to the point that there are only a handfull of Hemophilus influenza meningitis cases seen in this country now. It was not that way in the early 1980s. I was the microbiolgy supervisor at a children's hospital in the mid-west in the '80s and we lost a lot of infants to the disease or the sequella were devestating (motor nerve damage, loss of hearing, cognative issues, etc.)!

Then there is Boretella pertussis (whopping cough). Twenty percent of the infants who come down with whopping cough will die. Another 40-50% will have some degree of brain damage (mild to severe). A portion will have respiratory problems for the rest of their life just to name a few of the issues with whopping cough.

That is just two of the vaccines infants should recieve. I could go on but I think I make my case. Get your facts staight before spreading misinformation.

You have not made a case, but have failed to provide the actual facts of the cases you stated.

Not every child is breastfed, right or wrong. There are many childhood diseases that children and infants get despite maternal antibodies, therefore diseases like HIB, whopping cough and other disease will infect children who are not vaccinated. Herd immunity will help some but not in the case of whopping cough and Hemophilus influenzae because there are too many carries. So I still say BULL to your non-scientific nonsense!

it was even suggested to me i fill out the religious form. i succumbed. i allowed the children to get it. i put the chicken pox off as long as i could. a good two years.

for those that have stated such a parent is stupid, or darwin theory parents, or they shouldnt have kids,.... bullshit. you are just mouthing off without a clue of the type of parent i am or the many parents that are sitting there 4 yr old down to get 6 damn vaccinations at one time.

the doctor that says it is irrational, fear base. not like we have a lot of faith in our doctors, drug giants or govt. not like they have earned it

and for those that willfully dismiss the parent that sees the change in their babies after these mass amounts of vaccination at a given time, just riles me so. i was the parent that was with my babies 24/7 and still at 9 and 12 spend that amount of time with them. i know everything that is going on with them. i was able to see things happening to my oldest child after the shots. and we have lived with it for 8 yrs. i am the parent in the know with my child. no other person is authority over my child, like i am.

childhood diseases her pediatrician had spread among his patients because he didn't wash his hands between visits!!!

What is that?

and then mandated hepatitis A. both those vaccinations i was opposed to and after learning thru this thread that kids need a booster to chicken pox, which i am not hearing anyone who knows this i am really bothered. i have to call doctor monday to find out about that one. and hepatitis A effect a small group of people and generally when people get it they are effected no worse than the flu if they even know they have it. at one point for a small period of time our area there was an increase in cases so that is excuse bush used to mandate it for us. from research i hear that is normal what happens with hepatitis A.

it caused intussusception, a severe side effect? Here is the summary from the CDC of that whole sordid affair.

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5334a3.htm

Giving Hepatitis B vaccine to all infants is another scandal, IMO. The studies were done on inner city hospitals where there were a lot of prostitutes, drug addicts and partners of drug addicts without prenatal care giving birth. They discovered that it was more cost effective and safer for the infants just to assume that every woman who delivered was infected with Hepatitis B and start vaccinating the babies at birth and in infancy. However, Hepatitis B is actually quite uncommon, especially among women who are not drug addicts, prostitutes or the partners of drug addicts and who do not have multiple partners or practice unsafe sex. And if you have prenatal care, you have already been screened. When I had my child, I did not give him Hepatitis B vaccine as an infant, because I am a physician, and I knew that I was not infected---I had received the vaccine years ago and was immune. A child will not be exposed to Hepatitis B until he becomes sexually active or experiments with IV drugs, therefore the best time to give the vaccine is at adolescence---a time when the brain is closer to being formed and when vaccines are much less likely to affect the brain.

The number one cause of polio nowadays is the live virus vaccine. That is why they switched to the dead form of the immunization.

Vaccines which make sense in infancy are those for fatal diseases like tetanus and potentially fatal like diptheria. Other vaccines are probably more important for adults. Rubella is important because of birth defects. Measles kills adults. Mumps sterilizes male adults. Chicken pox kills adults. Influenza kills people with lung disease, heart disease and the elderly. You could make a case for immunizing adults who haven't had the latter diseases to prevent them from becoming very, very ill or dying.

A big problem with giving kids MMR is that the immunity wanes and then they catch measles as adults and get sick as shit, whereas a childhood bout of measles would have given them lifetime immunity. I saw cases like this. One healthy young woman ended up in the ICU. So, if you never had the disease, get your immunity level checked periodically.

They will accept that medicine can do no wrong. The profit motive can move most anyone to do unethical and immoral things.

That is a ridiculous strawman and I'm calling you on it.

>>I acknowledge that there are professionals who know far more than I ever will about vaccinations and what the human immune system can handle<<

It is precisely the attitude AX10 appears to be reacting to - it is certainly the that annoys the heck out of me every time vaccination discussions come up.

I am not anti-vaccination, by any stretch of the imagination. I do, however, take seriously my responsibility for the health care of my family - and that means not blindly placing my faith in traditional medicine, including when it comes to vaccinations. My daughter has had most of the recommended vaccinations, but not all, and some on different timing than the standard recommendations. No vaccinations have been rejected or delayed without thorough research into the benefits/risks both of the vaccination and the illness it is designed to prevent.

I have full use of my left arm because I reached a point in treatment of a problem with my left arm at which traditional medicine had nothing left to offer. That forced me to do my own research and to suggest logical treatment paths which resulted in full recovery. My daughter was able to go to kindergarten wearing diapers because I refused to take "there's nothing wrong with her" as an answer. I got her to another physician who diagnosed her with serious chronic illness at the age of three, and when the second doctor's traditional approach failed to create a complete remission of the problem, I did research into less traditional approaches which resulted in treatment changes that caused complete remission. (Incidentally, the theory of her disease progression which I came to, and on which I based my successful treatment recommendations is now the accepted theory for the progression of this particular disease. The disease is an auto-immune disease which is an indication I have a reasonable understanding of the immune system.) Those are just two of several incidents in which I have been forced to rely on my own ability to learn about and pursue appropriate medical care. I am not about to cede all power to "professionals who know far more than I ever will" merely because someone recites the magic word "vaccination."

Everyone needs to be actively involved in, and take responsibility for, their own (and their families') medical decisions and care. That includes researching and making informed decisions about the wisdom of the content and timing of the currently recommended vaccination schedule.

i wanted to know how much they guaranteed my children would then NOT be susceptible to chicken pox as an adult. if the vaccine will wear off? where my adult child is at a much greater risk than if they got it as a child. when i was 36 preg with my last son my doctor told me i needed rubella again because mine was no longer effective. i have something like ab negative blood (is that the unusual one) and he said i would be in a world of hurt if i needed blood???? but i do know they wear off.

but, because i think about these kinda things and dont just willingly get the shot for the kid i get comments that i dont want to vaccinate at all. not to mention all the other inappropriate remarks about what a bad parent i am.

now you say "when vaccines are much less likely to affect the brain." so how likely are these vaccination to effect a childs brain? how predominate is it? if i heard my doctor say when vaccines are much less likely to effect the brain, i would (and do) have issue.

they tell me i am just being irrational and fear based. i watched my son after his two yr old shots behavior at night and it mimic autism. i had never seen it in the baby. i dont trust them. many people dont trust them. it isn't just religious right. many parents dont trust. the people that are trying to sell it are not doing a good job assuring us by telling us we are irrational and fear based. it is a non trust issue. we dont trust anyone with our children health because they have proven they cannot be trusted.

No medical study has EVER been proven wrong.

All things proven safe at one time are always safe and are never proven wrong.

George bush IS a real christian filled with Christ Love.

The moon is made of green cheese... Mmmmmm cheeeeeese.

really, that one made me laugh the most

best $40,000 I ever spent!

Except for chicken pox, which I had as a child. I am probably one of the last people who will ever have gotten it in the pre-vaccine days, since I got it as a child in the early '90s. These days when the doctors look at my chart they always say, "no chicken pox vaccine?" and are surprised when I tell them I got it when I was a kid.

reports from the parents --

I would ask, how many parents have experienced this and would you be in their place?

These parents aren't forming together because they're a dumb herd of idiots --
they have experienced these events and understand what is going on.

If it hasn't happened to you or your child -- be thankful -- but also listen.

or people that dont have kids. tell me it is ok, not a deal, not really happening and my favorite "worth the risk". and then when i dare to speak out be called dumb, stupid, irration, fear based? there is a reason all these adults are signing these forms. but the arrogant doctors and holier than thous that havent experience chose to ignore and call names

My youngest child has an extreme allergy to eggs and egg containing products. Since most vaccines are cultured in egg whites, taking them could literally kill him. Our pediatrician has assured us that he is in no danger in the U.S. from most of these viruses, and that he poses little danger to others.

By the way, this isn't merely a religous or conspiracy nut thing. Many vegan parents are apparently choosing to abstain from vaccinations as well, since they are cultured using live chicken eggs.

As long as everybody else is driving sober, I see no reason not to drink and drive.

But a lot of these people just aren't doing their share.

Deathly allergic to eggs or some other vaccine component? Okay. The rest of us will protect you via herd immunity.

Disorder of the immune system? Your body won't respond properly to vaccines.

Some other legitimate MEDICAL issue that prevents you from receiving one or more vaccines? The herd is there for you!



Everyone else? You ARE the herd. If you don't accept immunization, then the people who truly can't use vaccines will be exposed to a higher risk of disease and death.

When you protect yourself, you protect them as well.

If I had a child allergic to vaccine, I would damn well make sure everyone else in the house was vaccinated.

I cannot do flu mist because it is live virus and I have lupus. But I can (and do) get the flu shot every year (that the Bush administration makes sure it is available.)

that enough people are selflessly willing to take the tiny, tiny risk of vaccination in order to help protect him.

I am glad that my kids are vaccinated. But I worry a lot about families like yours. Through no fault of your own these anti-vaccination nutjobs could cause your son harm, and that's so very wrong.

parents are intelligent and aware and they understand the plight of parents whose children have had these very serious problems and they do not have confidence in the answers from the medical community. Let's not ignore that reality.

Second -- much of our science and the FDA has been "BUSHED" . . . meaning bought out.
As we well understand, decisions from this administration and the agencies they control now are too often suspect and criminal.