Mitt Romney said people with no faith have no values and that's

why we need a person of faith in the White House.

Please tell me why people who don't believe in God have no values?
What's God got to do with values? For a long time (most of my life) I was an Agnostic or even an Atheist (but I've been a believer for the the past 5 years). I consider myself as ALWAYS having very good/high values
and they haven't changed as my faith has changed. I'm no better or more honest or more ethical today than I used to be. Being a believer has done absolutely NOTHING to change or improve my morals. Being a Christian or a believer doesn't seem to have helped all those hypocritical Republican crooks and hate mongers have decent values.

Romney and all the other political Theist need to be challenged on this point. Dems are losing a good opportunity to challenge them every time they brag about how religious they are...i.e. how good and honest they are.

n/t

All they're really doing is trying to force people to buy into a broken system.

i like to think that i hold more true to the ten comandmants then most of these religious nuts running around. i mean just look at the big one that all the religious right loves to ignore "thou shalt not kill" no buts, no ands plain and simple. No one addresses this because as soon as they do they realize that they are not keeping with gods laws, any religious concervative who is an advocate for this war is by definition a hypocrite period.

Hell, that one is big business AND a cottage industry with Republicans! They ALL do it, from the corporate media to the average RW troll, only nowadays it's known as "swiftboating."

Any number of right-wing religionists, including Pope Rat, have issued serious treatises and op-eds and books arguing that there is no possibility of being moral without religion.

I think the reasoning goes that you have no reason to be moral if you don't believe in a higher being, etc.

Then they throw in Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin as proof that not being religious makes one evil.

Not sure how they deal with Inquisition, etc--I think they just say that these people weren't following true religion or something. (and they completely ignore the fact that Hitler enjoyed strong support from many mainstream Christian churches in Germany, and little or no resistance from the Catholic church)

resistance from the Catholic Church. Pope Pius XII spoke out against Hitler more than other European leaders did. It was a difficult balancing act. For most of the war, the pope was a prisoner in the Vatican, surrounded by Mussolini's Fascists. The Church was forced to act in secret to save Jews and did a good job of doing so, particularly in Italy.

Pope Pius XII was honored as a righteous Gentile by Jews at the end of the war, and many Jews, including many famous ones, paid tribute when he died in 1958.

The false stories about Pius XII and the Catholic Church not helping the Jews were started twenty years after WW II, nearly ten years after Pius died, by people who wanted to destroy the Church, primarily communists. Communists wanted to destroy a major opponent. The Catholic Church has long supported labor unions and social justice, which capitalism and communism both attempt to suppress.

Fairly early in the war, after the Dutch Bishops had all priests read an anti-Nazi letter one Sunday, the Nazis rounded up a large number of people and killed them as a direct response to the readings of the letter. For obvious reasons, the bishops didn't try that sort of effort again. Instead, priests and religious (members of religious orders) throughout Europe were given the word to protect Jews however they could, including making out phony baptismal certificates for them (phony because the Jews weren't baptized at all, they were just given certificates to prove they were Christian.) The priests and religious passed on the word to other Catholics. There were also Protestants who helped Jews, of course. They also learned not to make public denouncements of the Nazis because that only got more people killed. Working quietly was more effective.


As for the topic of the thread, it is false to say only religious people have morals. Good people have morals, whether they are religious or not. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. were not evil because they weren't religious, they were just evil.

These people think those of us who thankfully lack religion have no reason to be moral, which is why they're jealous that, lacking religion, we still somehow are moral.

It forces them to question the value of their religion, that someone without it can behave in just as moral a fashion as they.

They're jealous we can do it without religion.

:-)

Isn't it ironic?

I think it's gone beyond irony at this stage, and lurched into full-blown cognitive dissonance and psychological projection on a scale pretty much beyond what we've ever seen.

and Mass Murder is their favorite.

rat romney has "faith"..that he can fool enough people into thinking he's sincere and isn't a lying corporatefascistwhore. Good luck, ratfuck.

are fooling that many people these days. There are always going to be a few kool-aid drinkers because after all, "you can fool some of the people all of the time," but their days of "fooling all of the people" are OVER! Nobody with half a brain is buying into their b.s. about being "Christians" any more.

carrying water for them or they'd be hysterically, laughed off the stage.

i believe in the words of christ

nt

false pretenses, torture, incarceration with trial, and all those other traits of such wonderful values. Maybe they will make up a god that "saves" only them too. I know they are "praying" for me (another way of saying they hate me). Bless them. ;-)

whatsoever to speak to me about 'values.'

I believe in very strict separation of church and state. Religion must be removed from the White House. Keep your religion private and in your own life not America's.

and what you mean by "values." I don't just suspect, I KNOW Mitt Romney's definition of both words is very different from mine! "Believer" isn't a word I use about myself since I'm not a Christian, but I imagine your high moral values had a lot to do with making a believer out of you. What I'm saying is that you were doing God's will before you were aware it was God's will. In other words, "faith without works is dead."

get their own planet after they die.

"Have faith" to me means that a person believes in some form of fantasy made up by people who died many years ago. There are around 130 different religions. They all seem like fantasies to me. I cannot decide which ones are wackier. None are not worth killing others for but that is what has happened & is still going on. Zealous religious people are the most dangerous on the planet.

and learning everything he can about ecology, so he'll be able to manage that planet of his when he gets it, and not turn it into another garbage dump like we've managed to do with this one.

To me "having faith" means a lot of things, the most broad-based one being that I believe the forces of good will eventually win out, hopefully within my lifetime. Although there are days when that takes a LOT of faith, sometimes more than I have available.

now. :eyes:

Blow it out yer ass, Mitt.

They are all truth-challenged.

if Romney were to get into the White House (I don't think he will), 4 more years of faith-based administration is sure to precipitate a loss of further values in even larger numbers than otherwise.

Gee, do you suppose he meant financial 'values' as some kind of biblical codeword from the moneyed class to others in the moneyed class? That is the kind of hypocrisy humans have seen from a couple thousand years of 'faith-based' leadership.

Fucking AMWAY freak.

Link: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-28-harris-religion_x.htm

One of Krazy Katie's famous lines ...

... if Christians are not elected, politicians will "legislate sin," including abortion and gay marriage.

Another ...

Separation of church and state is "a lie we have been told," Harris said in the interview, published Thursday, saying separating religion and politics is "wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers."



In a small way I sorta miss Ol' Krazy Katie. She certainly was a hoot.

I tend to think that people who claim to be religious (i.e. people like Bush) have no values. Of course there are many examples these days of that around the world. I don't include those who consider themselves spiritual in that category. I think that is something completely different.

Mitt's an ass. They all kiss the asses of so-called values voters, but completely ignore those of us who do not believe.

Anti-Abortion
Anti-Gay
Pro-"Christian" School Prayer
Anti-Evolution
Pro- Creationism
Anti-Equal Rights

because they have an instruction book.

Of all the possible fallacies, this is the largest; that following the <$HOLYBook> precisely will get one into a good afterlife.

I have had christians tell me that actions don't count for anything; only belief in christ gets one into heaven. That is one of the biggest reasons I studiously avoid that religion.

I have a bigger reason, of course. That one involves my personal safety, and even my very life.

but judging the way they act, very few of them have actually read it.

Atheists, agnostics and other nonbelievers are the permissible group to oppress in our society. Even the homophobic right is cautious about what they say about anyone in the homosexual community. But nonbelievers are still fair game. Heck he is trying to make points off blasting us.

but my moral values have always been high. (That doesn't mean I've always lived up to them, of course.)

I could attribute my values to going to Sunday School and church as a child but I attribute them more to what my parents taught me and to my later studies and thinking things out for myself.

I returned to religious faith nearly twenty years ago, after more than twenty years of atheism/agnosticism. My values haven't changed since then but I do work harder to live by them.


Mitt was raised among Mormons and probably hasn't known many people without religion. He should get out more.

baby harp seals. I just can't stop myself.

of course that is not true. They bible says you should kill your neighbor if he works on Sunday, and kill all gays. Why don't we do that? Because we get our morals not from the bible but from our ability to reason which has developed through evolution.

People who are religious (not all) do so because they want to believe. It makes life easier (they think) and the thought of death less depressing. It would be lovely to believe I'll be able to see my Dad and son and best friend again when I die.

Once you believe, it becomes your world view and you have to prop it up, defend it, make it bigger than it is ("we are the chosen ones" "ours is the only true religion" "people who do know hold our religious views are inferior, not perfect, not moral.") I've always thought a moral system that does not depend on the bible is far superior because you have to reason through what is right and what is wrong. When faced with a new problem, you will have the skills to know how to determine if it is right or wrong. Since the bible was written 2,000 year ago, and god hasn't said anything since, you need to know how to deal with new issues that arise without relying on a deeply flawed book.

could but I can't and don't. I do however believe that I am moral and ethical and my observations of Christianity did not match up with the reality of what I have observed. I have struggled with this for some time and in the end I find that Buddhism more closely reflects my path in life.

FUCKSTICK

jayzuz we get rid of him finally here in Mass. only to have see his opportunist face everywhere as he tries to drum up some constituency among the fundamentalist wing of the republican party.

AAARRRGH.

:banghead:


all I ask is to have one mitt-free day. just one.