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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 10:21 AM Original message |
Conscience vs Pragmatism |
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acmavm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 10:36 AM Response to Original message |
1. Okay, one of the most relevant and important paragraphs in your post |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 10:45 AM Response to Reply #1 |
2. Yes. |
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Spurt (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 10:56 AM Response to Original message |
3. K&R |
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Jim__ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:04 AM Response to Original message |
4. I am not sure there is any conflict between conscience and pragmatism. |
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Spurt (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:17 AM Response to Reply #4 |
5. It is the only action. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:38 AM Response to Reply #5 |
8. These two posts |
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guruoo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:32 AM Response to Original message |
6. IMHO, outcome is important, too. n/t |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:33 AM Response to Reply #6 |
7. I agree. n/t |
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Stinky The Clown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:52 AM Response to Original message |
9. I don't see a conflict between conscience and pragmatism |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:54 AM Response to Reply #9 |
10. Those who say |
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Gregorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 12:09 PM Response to Original message |
11. I walk away from this post with something very different. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 12:23 PM Response to Reply #11 |
13. Those noose hangers in Jena were not prosecuted. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 12:28 PM Response to Reply #13 |
14. I remember when |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 12:49 PM Response to Reply #14 |
16. And that's why Black Water is a near perfect expression |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 12:53 PM Response to Reply #16 |
17. Very good. |
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TahitiNut (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 01:13 PM Response to Reply #16 |
22. ... and above the law. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 01:17 PM Response to Reply #22 |
24. That's right. Answerable to no one and to nothing. Not the law, |
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bleever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:46 PM Response to Reply #16 |
64. ..."slick, entrepreneurial, predatory and carelessly lethal..." |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:44 PM Response to Reply #64 |
74. That's what happens when you piss off poets. |
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bleever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 12:15 PM Response to Original message |
12. Practically speaking, impeachment is the only brake on this war |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 12:31 PM Response to Reply #12 |
15. That is right. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 01:05 PM Response to Reply #15 |
19. And there's Iran, bookended by BushCo catastrophes. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 01:02 PM Response to Reply #12 |
18. You are right, bleever. That has been their concern |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 01:05 PM Response to Reply #18 |
20. There was a |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 01:11 PM Response to Reply #20 |
21. The Supreme Court, the UN, the World Court. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 01:16 PM Response to Original message |
23. If David Horowitz can organize "Islamo-Facism Awareness Week" |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 03:05 PM Response to Reply #23 |
29. There should be. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 03:08 PM Response to Reply #29 |
30. I have emails out to impeachment groups in my area, |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 03:10 PM Response to Reply #30 |
31. Yep. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 03:19 PM Response to Reply #31 |
32. The attendees at our demonstrations are younger and younger |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 03:26 PM Response to Reply #32 |
33. Oh, and, btw, I emailed Horowitz and thanked him |
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Me. (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 01:18 PM Response to Original message |
25. 'For we are sick at heart' |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 05:31 PM Response to Reply #25 |
34. As we have noted |
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Raksha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 02:09 PM Response to Original message |
26. K & R |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 02:35 PM Response to Original message |
27. Kick |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 02:45 PM Response to Reply #27 |
28. I think you |
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Stinky The Clown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 07:16 PM Response to Original message |
35. A kick for the night shift |
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bleever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 08:15 PM Response to Original message |
36. If you break a bone, you don't decide |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 08:33 PM Response to Original message |
37. The fatal flaw in your argument is the falsehood that the evidence supports each speculation equally |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 08:53 PM Response to Reply #37 |
38. One of the flaws |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:01 PM Response to Reply #38 |
42. I point out that some knowledgable folks disagree with you, and that you argue a false equivalency |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:06 PM Response to Reply #42 |
43. Respectfully disagree. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:12 PM Response to Reply #43 |
47. With Cheney alone it's harder to say what would happen. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:16 PM Response to Reply #47 |
51. Actually |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:26 PM Response to Reply #51 |
55. I'll wait for your essay. I haven't read up as much on likely reactions to a Cheney impeachment |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:42 PM Response to Reply #55 |
62. Not always. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 04:38 AM Response to Reply #62 |
75. Why protect Libby in that case with a commutation? If it's all out there, why bother? |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 06:20 AM Response to Reply #75 |
78. From your heading, |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 09:37 PM Response to Reply #78 |
92. That depends on the judge. There's ample precedent for SCOTUS to obviate Bush's exec priv defense |
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bleever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 08:55 PM Response to Reply #37 |
39. Is there a place Gore's opposition to impeachment has been reported? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 08:57 PM Response to Reply #39 |
40. It was during his PBS interview. From a quick search: |
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bleever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:09 PM Response to Reply #40 |
44. Thanks for the link. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:13 PM Response to Reply #44 |
48. If congress had |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:16 PM Response to Reply #48 |
49. The same Democrats who are too weak to do so are capable of impeaching Cheney and Bush? |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:18 PM Response to Reply #49 |
52. No. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:31 PM Response to Reply #52 |
58. And your evidence that they -can- effect impeachment is what, exactly? |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:10 PM Response to Reply #40 |
45. Yes, I remember seeing that. n/t |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:16 PM Response to Reply #37 |
50. You beg the question that failure to convict is failure. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:22 PM Response to Reply #50 |
53. I assume you level the same appeal to authority claim at H2O Man? |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:25 PM Response to Reply #53 |
54. There is no more |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:28 PM Response to Reply #54 |
56. The particulars of all his major crimes have yet to be uncovered |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:45 PM Response to Reply #56 |
63. No matter what evidence |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:32 PM Response to Reply #53 |
59. You didn't respond to my post, but are going off on a hobby horse. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:34 PM Response to Reply #59 |
60. Let's see: I responded to you "expert appeal" claim, to your "how is failed impeachment?" claim |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:25 PM Response to Reply #60 |
71. I don't think we're going to get anywhere either of us want to go. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 04:40 AM Response to Reply #71 |
76. Fair enough, but I suspect you are holding me to a higher standard because you disagree with me |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 02:08 PM Response to Reply #76 |
89. I wouldn't do that. I just realized that I was too tired |
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mzmolly (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:00 PM Response to Original message |
41. "my motivation is not based entirely by counting votes..." |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:11 PM Response to Reply #41 |
46. One of the things |
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mzmolly (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 11:15 AM Response to Reply #46 |
84. What a great picture H20Man. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 11:20 AM Response to Reply #84 |
85. I like that |
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mzmolly (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 12:27 PM Response to Reply #85 |
87. It certainly shouldn't. |
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bleever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:54 PM Response to Reply #41 |
66. That's brilliant. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 10:00 PM Response to Reply #66 |
68. The democratic process |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:26 PM Response to Reply #66 |
72. Yes, it is. |
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mzmolly (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 11:22 AM Response to Reply #66 |
86. Thanks, though I can't take credit. |
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bleever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:28 PM Response to Original message |
57. What is a "failed" impeachment? |
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Me. (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:23 PM Response to Reply #57 |
70. A Failed Impeachment Is One That Is Never Attempted |
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porphyrian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:38 PM Response to Original message |
61. We agree on this. I hope this helps others get it. - n/t |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 12:56 PM Response to Reply #61 |
88. I think that |
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riderinthestorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:51 PM Response to Original message |
65. CALL YOUR CONGRESSPERSON RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!111!!! |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 09:59 PM Response to Reply #65 |
67. Thank you. |
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in_cog_ni_to (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 10:52 PM Response to Original message |
69. K&R for Conscience......"How many must die before our voices are heard, |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 06:41 AM Response to Reply #69 |
81. Thank you. |
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AuntPatsy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-20-07 11:32 PM Response to Original message |
73. Impeach now, we cannot afford not to. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 06:38 AM Response to Reply #73 |
80. Exactly. |
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Tatiana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 05:20 AM Response to Original message |
77. I am so sick of the "we don't have enough votes" cowards out there. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 06:26 AM Response to Reply #77 |
79. I agree. |
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Hun Joro (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 10:28 AM Response to Original message |
82. Kick for an excellent post |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 10:28 AM Response to Reply #82 |
83. Thank you. |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 03:23 PM Response to Original message |
90. Sanity or Delusion |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 07:31 PM Response to Reply #90 |
91. Yes. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 09:38 PM Response to Reply #90 |
93. They seem to believe they're protecting the election. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 09:46 PM Response to Reply #93 |
94. Hardly. But giving the fractured GOP renewed solidarity via a failed impeachment is dangerous |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 09:51 PM Response to Reply #94 |
95. That's a big pile of assumptions you got there. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 09:58 PM Response to Reply #95 |
96. Yeah, that was a snarky, unproductive post. But it seems that way sometimes! |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 10:02 PM Response to Reply #96 |
97. What makes you think there was any snark in that post at all? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 10:05 PM Response to Reply #97 |
98. I was referring to my post, you were correct that it included many assumptions |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-21-07 10:10 PM Response to Reply #98 |
99. Oh, I see. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-22-07 05:41 PM Response to Reply #93 |
100. They are exactly wrong. |
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