I Think I Finally Figured Out Our Economy

I've been bothered, like most, by the state of our economy and the attack on our the middle class for years now. It's always been one step away from me being able to put my finger on it. For one, I consider myself a fiscal conservative and believe in the free market system as the best system in the world.

But then I look around, especially in the last eight years, and it's all crap that I see. The middle class, the very heart of this country, is slowly dieing. I see the biggest transference of wealth this country has ever experienced happening right now. It all seems so familiar to me .....

I can think of a lot of things that spoil things for us in general. Corporations being run to please the "narrow" judgment of Wall Street, instead striving for strong companies. A vindictive government that is stingy with social welfare, but free with corporate welfare. And the list can go on.

But if you really want to get a handle on what's going on in this country, here is my take. A DU'er, and I can't recall whom, reminded me that the capitalist system is a self-cannibalizing system. Left unfettered, the system eats itself alive. It's geared to meltdown. So we've fine tuned it as needed. Look at the turn of century robber-Barron's if you need proof of what capitalism run amok would do.

But this is the way I see things right now. I see us completely out of balance where almost all vestiges of common sense and reason are gone, and greed, avarice and corruption are king.

Our country has become, "Monopoly" the game.

It sounds cute, but recall the game. Players start out with equal resources on equal footing. But as the game unfolds, luck "the roll of the dice" and skill take over. In the end you are left with a leading player and everyone else is eaten alive. Properties are bought up, houses and hotels are bought, huge rents are collected. People are bankrupted and only one leaves with everything.

The game always ends with a winner and everyone else, a loser. It's neat in the game, but the real world application would be horrific.

That's the direction I see this nation taking.

Like I said I'm a big fan of capitalism, and free markets, but left unsupervised, we are looking at the world's biggest game of Monopoly play out. It's fun as a game, but deadly in real life.

Wake up America. Let's build an economy that levels the playing field and sustains the American dream for not only ourselves, "and let's face it, it's probably too late for us", but for our children and our children's, children.

These guys are running this country into the ground. And no candidates are talking about that.

It's the economy stupid.

lou dobbs says its all them filthy ferriners.
and and and blacks don't want to work, and i hear there's a sale at walmart.
and i got credit cards.
wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I do not like pure socialism because it discourages creativity. It rewards people for thinking in the box. On a practical level, I do not want my government deciding what shoes will be available in the local shoe store. But unbridled capitalism is equally awful. Ultimately, it also discourages creativity. Right now, big corporations buy up new ideas for inventions, etc. to prevent competition with the big corporations' products. What we need is healthy competition.

We also need a healthy infrastructure in which small start-ups can compete. In my view, it is the job of good government to provide and manage the infrastructure. That means we need good schools, fair courts and law enforcement, universally affordable quality health care, clean air, good streets and other means of transportation, good, cheap water, good electricity delivery, good cultural venues, freedom of expression and religion. Then let businesses and individuals compete. We also need a security net for people who cannot compete. I am thinking of people with physical and mental disabilities as well as the very young and old who cannot compete in the workplace or in business.

Look into 2 cities: Detroit, as Capitalistic (at least in the American sense) as you can get, and Copenhagen (a fairly Socialized city). And see in which city is thinking more out of the box.

I think that a healthy socialist system, not a crazy authoritarian one... encourages people to think out of the box. Necessity is obviously the mother of invention, but no one dawned on a great discovery on an empty stomach.

I agree with most of your points, the government should provide a set of services for the common benefit. Everybody does better in a society when everbody does better. We are humans not animals, infinite greed is not sustainable... as we are witnessing.

But to the unwashed masses, it is all "Commie red" unfortunately.

Venezuela (and much of South America) is Democratic Socialism. The old USSR and China are examples of Authoritatarian Communism.

I mean what you are calling Authoritarian Communism. A mixed system works best and can be changed to meet short-term economic situations such as changes in the demographics in a society or natural disasters.

I think much of the problem is that the toothpaste is out of the tube on this and we have lost the flexibility to reverse course without authoritarian (draconian) measures.

to mean pretty much the opposite of what you use it to mean, i.e. they use it to mean an ideal socialism of free producers, rather than Stalinism, Maoism or any of the other systems idealist socialists in the west used to call "actually existing socialism."

Hence, I'm sure, the confusion.

:shrug:

Those in power who restrict the use of that power to the enriching of themselves and their friends violate the obligation to preserve the general welfare of all Americans.

When government is no longer able to enforce the 'general welfare' provision, and that power is consolidated and used as a sword and not a shield, you end up with an elite class and the underclasses.

But i haven't heard any candidate really hit the nail on the head. I really liked it when Ross Perot came out with his charts. I'd like to see our candidates come on out and really show what's going in the economy.

Most the government data supplied to perpetuate our hoax of an economy is mostly just lies and cooked books.

Inflation stagnant? I've seen estimate of where it's up 16% in the last year. GDP, deficit spending, unemployment rates. All bull. How about the tax rate on the wealthy?

The Democrats are going down the wrong road by jumping on board with this war or even being side tracted by the debate on it.

It's the economy.

I don't know about everyone else, but I for one, don't want to see Americans living in mud-hut villages....

"not that their's anything wrong with that." :hippie:

It concerns some of the questions raised here and is really opening my eyes.

But the media has him on 'black-out' and tries to torpedo him. It'll get worse as he gains support from the fed-up masses. I hope he doesn't fly in small planes if cable news can't sink him and he continues to gain support.

Transcript and video is at this link: <http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11022007/profile2.html>

Katherine Newman on The Missing Class

November 2, 2007

Katherine Newman has spent her career studying the ups and downs of the economic landscape faced by American workers. In her latest book she has turned her attention on a increasing, and increasingly vulnerable segment of the population — the near poor. According to Newman the near poor are under the radar — a missing class:

"The missing class are families that are above the poverty line, but well below the middle class. So they earn about $20,000 to $40,000 a year for a family of four. The federal poverty line is $20,000. They have multiple jobs. Both as individuals and in their households. They often have to press their children into the labor market and pool that money so that their households can maintain themselves above the poverty line...They work every hour that exists. And sometimes that means they're not around very much for their children. Because they can't stay above the poverty line unless they put in many, many hours."

There are over 50 million Americans who fall into the missing class — including 20 percent of the nation's children. That's many millions more than the 37 million Americans who are living below the poverty level — a level which is the official cut-off for many federal services. (The 2006 poverty line stood at $20,614; for a family of four. More on poverty measurements from the Department of the Census.)

The near poor rarely make it into the news — or into academic or government measures. However, the ongoing battle over the reauthorization of the S-CHIP (The State Children's Health Insurance Program) has brought their problems into sharper focus. In 2006, the number of uninsured children increased from 8 million (10.9 percent) in 2005 to 8.7 million (11.7 percent). The battle between the White House and Congress ranges around how many children above the poverty line (and MEDICAID ineligible) should be covered by S-CHIP....

(more at link) <http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11022007/profile2.html>

Everybody is singing zippity doo dah and the Bluebirds of happiness are everywhere

Word got out their "jobs" numbers where fake.

Like our low rate of inflation.

It's all fake. The truth will get out, but they're playing "cover" now.

I honestly am beginning to feel that their plan out of this is an all out war in the Middle East.

Without manufacturing or developing technologies, we're just an over-depted consumer society. The dollar and our prestige is at an all time low.

Frankly, I don't see how we're going to pull out of this one. When the water rises, you can't even jump on the roof, because in this house of cards, it's rotten.

The wealthy did not move in gated communities for no reason.

Stock up on bottles of water, because when the dollar tanks, that will be the new currency.

I have this impending sense of doom when it comes to the economy. I live in Michigan and it is really bad here. I know there are other states doing much better but it is bad everywhere for the working class. I know people who lost one good job and had to get two or three low paying service jobs to make up for it. Then they have no medical insurance either. I guess that is what pumps up the job numbers for Bush. They are just hoping the bottom will fall out when a Dem gets into the White House. Then they can talk about how great it was under Bush and how a Dem ruined it all.

work for so long.

Look a Citi group imploding... an economy based on perception, and to an extent that is what the whole stock market is, can only be as real as the feelings that propel it. However, people eat food not feelings, and there is where things start to get interesting. The interesting part is the disconnect between the stock market and reality. And the danger is that the GOP has always used the stock market as the indicator for the state of the economy. Which is very dangerous...

about the stock market and believe that it is a measurement of their success. I do know some average joe six-packs who have stocks and believe they are a part of the "dream". So, any "good news" about the stock market insures them that they are OK and the rest are not.

Remember the day traders scam? They just don't get it, everytime Wall Street includes the little people in its game, they never win.

Any time mom and pop buy into any big "hype", it means the hype is just about over and more likely than not, mom and pop will lose. I actually know a guy who, at it's peak, talked his mother-in-law to invest in the dot.com craze. She ended up losing more money than she could afford.

The thing to remember about the stock market is money you lose does not disappear, it goes into someone else's pocket.

All the leading indicators have proven to be a sham. They all where contrived to support the stock market. Look for high volume and a couple of days of high gains. It's gonna correct "fall".

And well it should. That's the free market system.

Unfortunately the ones who can afford to lose the least will lose the most.

And he said that like it's a good thing. Such an a$$hole!

I remembered when he said "Americans shouldn't have to make the choice to drive smaller, less safe, automobiles".

He's the anti-christ.

OK,,,, maybe not the real one. Scripture doesn't describe an evil jack-ass like him. But when the gates of hell open, and he walks in, I'm sure he's gonna feel right at home with all his old commrades...

whenever i hear that i am always reminded by the joke i heard on i believe on DU, "yeah, but gates can be locked from both sides"...

dunno if that helps brighten up your mood. :7

My swag on that, is perhaps we could lock them in.

Oh,,, and what a wonderful world that would be!



:dem:

many a besieged medieval castle was betrayed by someone from the inside...

Yes I believe it was. A turncoat opened the gate.

GLOBAL water consortium

The posts fall off the page without a single comment each time.

I wonder, if in the back of everyone's mind, with global warming, that people just figure that once Greenland melts completely, then there will be plenty of water for all. As New York will look like Venice.

But you bring up an excellent point. I'm thinking that in the future lawns will be a forgotten luxury.

"Notice that in the 1980s and 2000s there is no meaningful difference in the percentage change in tax receipts when compared to non - supply - side policy years. In other words, supply-side tax cuts don't provide a meaningful difference in tax receipts when compared to non-supply side years."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hale-stewart/the-worst-economy-of-our-_b_70991.html

At the end of the day is a gimmick to make palatable the idea of "wishful" taxation.

This is, cutting the taxes for the rich following a supply side argument, is based on the idea that the rich with more money in the accounts from not paying all those baaaad taxes... will spend that money into the economy somehow. However, this is the kicker, there is no requirement in writing that requires those rich bastards to spend the money they saved from the taxes directly in the economy. This is, at the end of the day they are proposing a "faith based" taxation.

Now, instead of hoping the rich people expend all the money they save on taxes (which it is more likely they won't, that is why they are rich to begin with) I rather have them give that money in taxes now. Nothing personal, you know... I rather have it on writing, you know. Just in case. Thank you very much.

The worst part is that most of the backers of those tax cuts are the ones who least benefit from them: the middle class. But they are the living proof of the truest of adagios: there is one fool born every minute.

Sigh...

Well said. The heart of the argument.

And that's the biggest issue for me. It's not being talked about.

Watch a presidential debate and it's ignored.

Great article. The myth of the tax cuts for the rich. In the past, people would re-invest in this country. Building factories, creating jobs etc. Today, that's obviously not the case.

Not the mention the biggest influence on our economy...

Consumer spending.

Completely ignored.... Er, maybe not. I think these guys are starting to pick up on the fact that consumers will not bail them out this Christmas.

In the real world, one player starts off with only cleaning toilets to survive, and collects a dollar when he passes "GO"; and another gets $500 every time he hits that corner.

It is easy to be a social darwinist when you were born at the top of the "evolutionary" scale.

but real life does move slower than the game of Monopoly and people in "real life" have one asset not addressed in the game. That's imagination and hard work. They can create ideas and advance them for profit. Is it balanced still? No, because most people lack that creativity and drive.

But it does add complexity and interest to the game, the "real" game. It's interesting because it doesn't matter what social, economic, ethnic background you come from you can still prevail. No one can predict your future.

But without a fair set set rules, players who start from behind "like most of us" have little chance.

And it's the players who can't compete on a fair field that really affect our future greatness.....

It is drilled out of them intentionally.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying but the subject dovetails in an interesting way with a book that I am reading called "The Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. It discusses the intentional revolution in schooling in America that was accomplished in 1900-1920, and quotes early members of the Education Trust regarding the purpose of the new schools -- more a matter of 'cut to fit' and establishing a large class of dumbed down workers, ready to become cogs in the industrial machine.

The beaten path is well-worn with the footsteps of those who follow the rules, and if you always stay in the lines you can be one of the better paid worker bees.

But the argument that is made rather persuasively in Gatto's book could be summarized that the basic structure of the school system (NOT of individual teachers, but the system itself) is set up in order to suppress creativity and drive in the masses.

That would even the playing field quite a bit.

Look at the attitudes of people who have a lot of money. People who gain wealth through talent (like movie actors) tend to be liberal. People who gain wealth through business tend to be republican. The people with talent love what they are doing and excel at it. People in business get their's through 'cutting a deal' which is tantamount to lying, cheating, and stealing.

The simple truth is that liberals excel and republicans cheat.

I for one don't agree with you completely, but you do bring up a very good point. We, as we speak, are creating a phony American "royal nobility".

In our case, and like the nobility of the past, we've got a group who are neither royal, nor noble.

If you want to look into the actual spirit of this country, we rejected those old destructive institutions and invested instead into the wisdom and productivity of the common man.

I still believe in our system.

But what we see is not our system.

Without the bureaucracy and state capitalism...

And, EVERYONE hates to lose at monopoly. How many fights have broken out of that game? I think it is
one of the worst games for provoking arguments & ill will.

That was a solution brought on by the outrage of the people.

Now we have Blackwater and FEMA camps to deal with large scale domestic disturbances...



:tinfoilhat:

I believe that the fall of free-market capitalism is the unchecked greed and corruption associated with it. Research on the activities of the IMF and WTO throughout the last 40 years was enough to cement it for me.

Free market capitalists would maintain that Enron was not only right in what they were doing, but would applaud them for 'finding a new way'.

The neo-cons take this all a step further. Not only do they think that the government should stay out of business, but their big ponzi scheme is to drain the treasury into private coffers. $9 trillion of our tax dollars into the private sector as the niche rich get richer.

I HIGHLY HIGHLY reccommend Naomi Klein's book, The Shock Doctrine.

As a capitalist, you will genuinely appreciate the behind the scenes look at where the market took a dramatic turn and how the Bush Cabal is doing everything in their power to keep it there.

stupid enough to give me unlimited credit and expect me(public) to use it wisely then it's your problem. Life will go on, a new improved concept will be provided.

What happens when the economy turns south and people can no longer afford to pay 17% interest rate on their cards?

It's like a boulder roller downhill picking up steam....

But you bring up a valid point, credit card companies are like sub-prime lenders.

Their time is not now, but their time will come...

We have corporations that get to write the rules. We have corporatism.

We let the money start voting for itself, and inevitably our own voices are being silenced.

tiny little companies and huge corporations. The corporations are so big in comparison with the little guys that they do not have to compete with them. Deregulation results in monopolies in the end. IMO Or at the very least an oligarchy made up of the biggest corporations and political parties like the GOP.

The farm bill, costing billions, is tailor made for large corporations.

Farmers are still hurting. As the price of corn goes up, so does the fertilizer, seed etc..

The big boyz are the only ones making a profit thanks to government subsidies.

The original game that Darrow ripped off for "Monopoly" was called "The Landlord's Game," and was intended by design to demonstrate how capitalism rips off the little guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord%27s_Game

I always love when I learn something new and subversive about something I have fond childhood memories of... :)

Every player accumulates more money and the game goes on almost forever. Think about that. :shrug:

Tahitinut I think you nailed it. In Monopoly the game needs to end. In the real world, we want a game that will perpetuate a sense of happiness for as long as possible....

Thanks.

Sometimes the simple stuff is the most elusive.

Funny how some people think that "nobody wins" if, instead, nobody loses and everybody wins.
(I think the overwhelming majority of people who think that are conservatives.)

You really made my day as I have never considered that.

What happens when everyone wins?

I'd guess we'd be in a perfect world,,, heaven?

Sadly, I don't think we can change our government in any short time. But one thing we can change maybe is ourselves for the better. And that can do a lot.

Thanks again.

Mike

The idea of a "free-market" is a hallmark of extremist, laissez-faire capitalist ideologies. The basis of it is, there should be no government regulation of business, no government role in the economy. The unstated lie implicit in it is that the uneducated, oppressed and poor are on equal footing with obscenely wealthy massive global corporations. The reality is the rich are free to screw over the poor who are free to starve. That's the free-market.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market#Noam_Chomsky:

Chomsky argues that the wealthy use free-market rhetoric to justify imposing greater economic risk upon the lower classes, while being insulated from the rigours of the market by the political and economic advantages that such wealth affords. He remarked, "the free market is socialism for the rich— markets for the poor and state protection for the rich."

Now a reasonable regulated/mixed market on the other hand, could possibly provide "a sort of freedom" by leveling the playing field.

I think this is the sort of "free-market" you are referring to, because you seem to know better than to leave it "unsupervised" (deregulated?)
but it's important to remember that "free-market" in capitalist terms means tyranny of the rich.

To that end, I think it would be in our best interest (as well as that of humanity in general) if we don't speak affirmingly of "free-markets".

My 2 cents. :)

-personman

Yeah, in the game, not in the real world.

Great,,, no "free market". I'd say what a disaster that would be, but from my perspective, that is what we are seeing now.

And it is a disaster.

I advocate rules that make sense for the greater good.

I think our system works fine with supervision. But it's gonna be hard to achieve. To get there, we need a Congress that's unfettered by corporate influence and advocates common sense.

Looking down the road, I just don't see that happening.

But you are spot on, "free markets" in the truest sense of the word are bad.

Some of the rules included "FAIR PLAY", "GOOD FAITH DEALING", "PROHIBITION OF CALCULATED MANIPULATION OF CONSUMERS", "NO PRICE-SETTING SCHEMES", "NO MONOPOLIZATION OR THREAT OF CONTROL OVER THE MARKET", "ACCURATE ACCOUNTING",...you know, common sense stuff. There can be NO competition if the market allows participants to become fucking sharks in a territory where there no other constraints.

I almost laugh at the focus on steroids and stuff being used by sports competitors because,...this society's elite economic culture is, like, addicted to unleashed advantages completely destroying even the possibility of REAL competition.

We do not live in a "capitalist" nation. We live in a fascist nation. No amount of talent or skill will earn any individual a spot to compete unless s/he has political or economic ties/advantage, or is just damn lucky (and talent/skill is NOT required) and happens less often than lotto winners.

Economically, this country's decline is so goshdamn obvious. The decline shows by merely the value of its dollar, its debt, and its politically-sponsored corporate control over 200 million people.

It is pitiful. So-called "conservatives" who fail to advocate morals on the economic operations of this country, scream over their obsessive pursuit of "human morals". I don't understand how those people deny the impact of DEMONIC-LIKE ECONOMIC INJUSTICE on human beings. Apparently, they avoid the parts of the "Holy Bible" that addresses the moral demands on economic pursuits.

Anyway, "capitalism" is just another version of "fascism" and it doesn't work for the benefit of "the people". We'll have to come up with something that could work in a democratic system. Maybe, we could come up with an "Ethical Competivism" theory more aligned with RESPECT for democracy.

Just offering thoughts off the top of my head.

Calling ourselves democrats and advocating republicanism seems not only contradictory, but stupid. With the technology and social awareness we have today, I'm surprised the rich and powerful have managed to keep their hold on society as long as they have. Representatives prove time and time and time again that the call for direct democracy is the truest of them all. Eliminating the state is the next step towards social liberation. They're scarcely our servants when running; afterwards it's just them going out on their own to the extent their constituency doesn't have a problem with CONSUMING. If their consumption habits are hurt, THEN it's time to pull them back. Let's not forget they corrupt public services by bureaucratizing the institutions instead of handing it over to the workers and local governments.

Economically, the only answer is democracy and self-autonomy. The rich and powerful are one-in-the-same. If you look at the wealth disparity, it's not much different than the difference between the First, Second, and Third Estate. Capitalism works economically, at least compared to past systems , but it's social ramifications are terrible. The chase for the dollar corrupts people; when they're in it for themselves they forget others.

The rich continue to use the same excuses they did during the 18th century: the people are too stupid to run things properly. It takes the best of us.

Yes, well, we all know what happened when women became educated.

They're afraid one day the people will understand that red and white dildo being shoved up their backside is doing them no service.

That " religion was the opiate of the masses".

In our country, our phony Democracy is the "Opiate of the masses".

Conservative= cashing in, waiting for the opportunity to bail out "typically in a gated community"

With one exception, the poor-proud Republicans. Who will be left holding the bag with their liberal minded counterparts.

At least when we are sitting around an open air fire in a Hover-ville, living outdoors, trying to stay warm, people will think we're kind of cool since we saw all this coming....

We'll be the new dirty celebs, in the mud hut village.

because they can appeal to the fear that the Democrats will push social programs and raise taxes - because where else will the money come from.

For god's sake, not ONE person pointed out the obvious. The UTTER DECIMATION of the US treasury that the Bush administration has wrought the past 7 years. Where do they think THAT money is going to come from?

But like I said - obvious.

Intensive marketing + cheaply manufactured goods = insane profits for the CEO and the "consumer" generally gets screwed in the end.

As a colony. We realized that exporting raw goods and importing finished goods was a road to nowhere.

...the Reagan/1st Bush years.

It continues, unabated, during the next generation of Republican flim-flam artistes.

Those people's values are shit; trust me. Never leave your wallet unattended when they're in power. Just a friendly, civic reminder. :-)

not the least of which is strong regulations and laws to keep everything in check. Unfortunately for years now big business has dismantled virtually every regulatory authority that ever existed. It was great for them, and it was great for those people lucky enough to be able to play the wall street game. Media consolidation is just one of many examples. The most noticeable to me was when they dismantled the banking laws to allow cross border banking. It killed off all the local banks one by one, as first they consolidated with each other and bought each other up, then the big boys bought up the medium boys. Shortly thereafter it hit all kinds of industries like retailers (I noticed it in our town when the pharmacies kept changing hands. The paint was barely dry and new signs installed when yet another buyout occurred. You almost coudn't keep up with it at the time. This was many years ago, and I knew then what was happening and it didn't look good. Of course it has all played over over the intervening years just as I knew it would. This game that is being played cannot be sustained very much longer. The end is soon. By the way, am I the only one who thinks having only 2 or 3 choices (if you can call them that)of places to shop is familiar to communism? I miss Woolworths. I miss Hook Drugs. I miss Citizen's bank. I miss all the mom and pop groceries and bookstores and other shops. Oh by the way, I am only in my very early 40's.

Real Food.

Seems like any place I want to go and eat, in my price range, is a franchise.

I remember growing up and eating at mom and pop Italian restaurants.

Can't find that lately. Even basic food. I live in San Antonio and they only have one supermarket chain, HEB.

You want a fresh loaf of real French bread or sourdough in San Antonio and you're out of luck.

Please someone prove me wrong....

I don't even eat out anymore for that very reason. The choices are either franchise or corporate owned places where they serve decent to not-so-decent average crap at inflated prices. I want to eat somewhere where the food is cooked fresh every day from scratch.

I kept behaving ethically and getting screwed for it. Seems like life is now immitating the game.