Just got back from Mexico. Know what?

I cannot hate those people, no matter what. I saw 2-year-olds wandering down highways alone. I saw 7 year olds begging alone. I have no clue where their mothers were. It hurts to think about it.

I know we have huge border problems, but the empath in me is screaming "Make these people's legalization process easier!!!!" For crap's sake, its not about building a wall. Help me!

NT!

:(

and treated like a freakin queen for being American. What the hell happened???

80% of the state of tabasco is under water

And that is an area greater than Katrina

About a million are displaced

Here's the yahoo! search:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=mexico+floods&fr=yfp-t-501-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

:puke:

being the sorry sob that he is and all.

do no wrong in mine nor her grandpas eyes..

You know, people can change, I hate to admit this but my husband was at one time one of the most racist human beings I had ever known, seriously I did not realize that until much later on in our relationship though I knew his family was with the comments that were made.

When I had daughters the ugly truth came out, can't tell you the hundreds of fights we had through the years as they aged with him making unveiled threats that if they dared to marry outside their race he would disown them

They do exist you know, many of them, anyway, as it turns out my daughter did just that, and she has three children now and though he swore at one time he would never except such in his house, he did with open arms and if anyone dared ever attempt to harm them in any way shape or form he would annihilate them, its what he learned growing up but he also learned from others as he grew away from those that raised him knowing how wrong that kind of thinking was.

He would give those kids the world if he could.

And he would never dare to call them anything but endearments.

I know of some men who openly call their own grandchildren racist slurs and laugh, thinking it very humorous, they think its okay because they except them

People like that make me sick.

I heard this grown man once call his grandson his little nigger baby, another wet back and so on, how his daughter did not punch him outright leaves me speechless to this day, its very sad how that family treats that one grandchild as if he is some kind of stepchild and the mother stays close to her family..

sad very sad.

There is still far too many racist beliefs in this country, I just don't understand how slow man continues to evolve and I do believe that form of thinking is very backward not only very wrong.

At first I have to admit he was happy with the first two, both blond blue eyed, seemed thrilled but didn't say much, the third completely looks like her dad dark hair dark eyes, it appears to me she has become grandpa's favorite..interesting.

http://www.myspace.com/ladybombon2 :thumbsup:

Currently, one-sixth of the citizens of Mexico live in the U.S. How many more will "cure" Mexico's neocolonialist plantation economy?

Just what immigration and naturalization laws would we actually be willing to enforce?

Without territorial sovereignty, there is no meaning to the notion of "self-governance" and, without that, no "rule of law" or "democracy." "Might makes right" becomes the de facto rule for survival.

Unless and until the international corporate predators and traffickers in human labor are brought to heel and punished for their crimes, all else is folly.

So please understand that I am trying to figure out how to fix what is wrong between our countries. I really want to find a way to help Mexicans while helping Americans.

Mexican pols press for immigration, neglect home front, critics say

http://michnews.com/artman/publish/article_2231.shtml

This top-notch article contains several quotes nailing the Mexican elite for its complicity
in the continuing ruin of the nation, e.g. economist Gary Hufbauer stated, "Basically, the
wealthy classes do not want to tax themselves, period." He also noted that the government
is hamstrung by tax collections that represent only 14 percent of the country's gross domestic
profit, well under the U.S. level of 25 percent to 28 percent.

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/finance-mexican.html

Well gee that was pleasant :puke:

or the title page of all the articles? :shrug:

I posted the link to this article:

Mexican pols press for immigration, neglect home front, critics say
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20030529-1352-cnsmexico.html

There are many articles at the second link...
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/finance-mexican.html

FURTHER READING:

Murder, Money and Mexico
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/mexico/
The Frontline broadcast that gives a hint at the corruption of our southern neighbor

Just one of the "features" I find disturbing about the trafficking in human labor (including "work visas" of all kinds as well as "illegal aliens") is the "filter" the border offers - almost perfectly assuring that only the young, fit, and motivated pass through to provide cheap labor for the landscapers, farms, construction, and "hospitality" industries. At no "cost" - to those industries, at least.

As I've said before, I'm steadfastly and vigorously in favor of immigration and support doubling or tripling (or more) the number of immigrants we accept annually. At the same time, I'm steadfastly opposed to all manner of trafficking in human labor, treating human beings as a commodity - a mere means to an end instead of an end in themselves. I would all but eliminate every form of "work visa" with very few exceptions and impose draconian penalties on those corporations, and their executives personally, who engage in almost wholesale exploitation of "cheap labor."

I'm also old enough to remember the same furor about 20 years ago, when I was on Cesar Chavez' "side." I'm hearing the same arguments and still don't see the necessary steps being taken to (1) alleviate the oppressive economic systems imposed, with the support of both our government and our corporations, on the people of Latin America and elsewhere in the world, and (2) bring the "cheap labor" traffickers and exploiters to justice.

They are not a quaint brown people that need your help, mighty white lady.

I'd be missing something if any thread that dealt with Mexicans or immigration didn't have at least one "brown people" response. I feel complete now. Thanks!:hi:

:hi:

Maybe we can learn from over there? In more ways than one..

particularly against African immigrants, from what I understand. Maybe not as rampant as it is here, I've not been there lately, this is based on what I've read?

(1) European nations are far more willing to have national identity documents.
(2) While there are adjacent nations with significantly disparate economic health, none even approach the degree of disparity between the U.S. and neighboring nations such as Mexico or Haiti.

And when the EU was new, eastern European countries were arguably as poor as Mexico is now.

How did they get to where they are now? Maybe we should study them.

I'm fairly familiar with border control and the economics in Europe, having traveled and worked there. When I speak of national identity documents, it's NOT about crossing borders. It's about getting a job, staying in a hotel, and even being stopped by the police. This creates a "virtual" border - a far less permeable barrier than exists in the U.S. Europeans would find it laughable, I'd imagine, that an employer claim they're unable to ascertain the eligibility of a person to work. (Hell ... I find it laughable.)

Furthermore, I'm quite aware of the (now decreasing) disparity in the economies, particularly between eastern (former Soviet bloc) and western Europe. I've been fascinated and impressed with the ability of Germany to reintegrate and reunify ... a daunting task, to say the least, and one that's met with far, far more commitment on the part of the citizenry than I'd expect. Nonetheless, the economic disparities still (as I said) do not match the degree of disparity that exists between the U.S. and some neighboring countries.

European nations have far stronger labor protections - both with unions and political will. The economic inequities in Europe don't even come close to what we see in Mexico, for example, with a Gini Ratio well in excess of 0.50. (European nations cluster around 0.20 to 0.35.) The U.S. income inequity has been rising steadily for over 20 years.

That said, Europe still has problems with the commoditization of human labor, even though those problems don't rise to that we see to our South ... or even throughout the U.S.

:shrug:

There are immigration problems in Europe, too.

This is a keeper:

"Unless and until the international corporate predators and traffickers in human labor are brought to heel and punished for their crimes, all else is folly." - TahitiNut 2007

Border states bear the brunt, and their infrastructures are falling to pieces. All this while the real problems are completely ignored.

The problem is not the border. The problem is not enough jobs. Not enough wealth down below. When there are jobs and growth, we fling our borders open and beg people to come in.

They are screaming IMMIGRATION! because they don't want to answer JOBS?

One just made Forbes --The Richest Man in the World.

corporatists, who should really be the target of everyone's anger. They are a group of scumbags that, as far as I've been able to determine, refuse to take any responsibility for the welfare of their own citizens and the progress of their country. At least our robber barons put some money back into society through philanthropy: Libraries, museums, parks, hospitals, schools, etc.

(And our government has done a great job of helping to keep Mexico's elite and their government cronies in power.)

the ruling elite in Mexico and the corporate masters here are in cahoots.

They did back in the days of Ford and J.P. Morgan. Not so today...today's elite's philosophy is "screw the little people!"

people have more options than having to come up here and work so hard. It's 2007 and with all the wealth and technology available, it's unforgivable that there are people in the world living like this.

I've heard the government is systemically corrupt (been hearing that for years). I'm not sure what we CAN do for them in the short term other than, as you said, make the legalization process easier.

I hurt with you - it's heartbreaking, I know.

I will learn slowly, but am curious about all the corruption.

Remember? The recount wasn't even on yet and Bush was congratulating the conservative thief.

And I think though I am close have only been perhaps three times in my life across that border.

It is really the border towns which are the worst regarding corruption and the like.

I am a bit surprised that more is not done to squelch the corruption and bad name they are given.

Its interesting but I would have to say that sadly greed ensures the corruption runs rampant and unless you can take that out of the equation I am not so sure it will change any time soon.

But, of course, I went to Mexico City and Alcapulco. And only went into the outskirts of Mexico City and the bullfights on guided tours.

and everytime I state this, I get the "why should we be responsible for Mexico's economy" flames. People just don't get it.

Mexico has a gini coefficient (measure of income inequality) of 54.6
Canada has a gini coefficient of 33.1
In 1970 the United States had a gini coefficient of 40. Today it's 47.

We are helping the economy of Mexico primarily by emulating them. We are ill-positioned to help their economy until we correct the direction ours is headed.

Wal-Mart largely set that ball rolling.

And now we have to grow more economies? I thought we were trying to do something about all this climate change stuff. The more we grow economies, ours or any other, the more impact we put on the environment.

Obviously that's why all this talk about saving ourselves from global warming is crap. To do anything, we have to stop growth. We're not going to stop here, and now we have to help Mexico grow.

That seems to be the rule.

the masses not well off to abject poverty--you are staring
UNFETTERED CAPITALISM in the face.

While Capitalism is the best economic system, it by its very nature
produces WINNERS (very rich) or Losers(not well off to abjectly poor).

It is a system of competition. The cream quickly rises to the top
Rest left in the dust.

Capitalism works and serves society best when it is regulated.
Look at our own country. As we deregulate and develop more free
trade agreements with no conditions, our own country is on the
way to becoming a banana republic. The data clearly shows, the
rich are getting richer and then there are the rest.

Gee --- who might that benefit --- ????

Migrant workers sent back more than $62.3bn to their families in Latin America and the Caribbean last year, a rise of 14 per cent on 2005.
The figures, to be released this weekend at the annual conference of the Inter-American Development Bank, confirm that remittances have become one of the region’s most important sources of foreign exchange. For the fourth successive year they will exceed the combined flows of foreign direct investment and overseas aid into the region.
Mexico (with a total of $23bn)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f94e4d5c-d32b-11db-829f-000b5df10621.html

Mexican workers are also leaving behind their payments in Social Security and other forced contributions as they work --

They also sacrifice pensions and health benefits which are often paid to US workers . . .

So the US benefits over and again from their presence -- but mainly in areas of CORPORATE WEALTH --

Illegal immigration occurs because it benfits corporations ---

it's another form of corporate welfare --

Exactly how are we at fault because there is poverty in Mexico? There's poverty here, too. There are poor kids all alone in the U.S. too.

They are poor and alone because someone fired their parents and hired the Mexicans, to put more money in the pockets of people who own the company.

Why don't you have any sympathy for people who were born in America?

Why do we have to "help" people from other countries by losing our own jobs?

For pete's sake, why is no one saying anything bad about the president of Mexico?

Supporters of illegal immigration throw out the "racist" accusation because they can't back up their position with facts. The wages of OUR working poor are being suppressed by an endless supply of labor flooding our country. Why have wages remained stagnant while inflation continues to climb? How come employers don't feel any pressure to provide health insurance to retain employees? People complain about the lack of a "living wage" yet seem to think we need to import more cheap labor.
Maybe we need workers in our economy but not having any control over the process is what is killing the working poor in our country. We shouldn't sacrifice our own citizens in order to provide relief for a foreign country's poverty problem.

Any ideas?

Don

The fact that they do not like Latinos either is surprising? They are a white supremacist group which believes whites are superior to all other races. Go figure why they don't like Latinos. They probably don't like Asian people either.

Are you implying that we should allow our working poor to continue suffering because the KKK doesn't like illegal immigration?

I will just throw this out there for you. President Bush is a big supporter of illegal immigration. Cheap labor is great for all his supporters.

The reason they took to the immigrant issue so well is that they have so many ignorant non-KKK members who fall for their tactics and will happily join in with them on this one.

Yep thats why.

Don

I don't feel like a KKK supporter. I do oppose an unlimited flow of cheap labor though.

not on the people who are allowing it to happen, and that is by design. I'm talking in general, not about you.

NNNOLHI, i HAVE NOT HEARD OF THE KKK ON THIS ISSUE, it would not surprise but I have not seen any kkk rally with more than twenty people and usually outnumbered by anti kkk. do you have any links to this subject. With haters like lou dobbs on cnn, i don't think we have to worry about kkk, they are yesterday and obsolete.

but those that wanted to perpetuate it managed to work it in there. Divide and conquer.

The current system is working well for the ruling elite in Mexico and the corporate masters here. They are working hard to keep it in place.

migrating or starving to death, I guess you're right.

That is a fine solution to the problem.

Sometimes I get carried away x(

I understand the economic pressure on those in poor countries to come here to support their families back home. If there wasn't an option to come here other than by legal immigration I can't help but think things might change for the Mexican people. Pressure might build on the Mexican government to improve their citizens lives rather than encouraging them to work here and send money home.

working on the problem from one end or the other isn't going work, it's got to be a joint effort. It's a very complicated issue, and one that unfortunately has turned ugly and racist.

in the United States over the weekend. He pointed out that the agricultural industry has always been the biggest offender and that it has never really stopped relying on slave labor.

in the beginning they relied on the indentured servitude of the British underclass, then when they started to rebel, they imported African slaves. After the abolition of slavery, they've depended on successive waves of oppressed immigrants.

has absolutely NO reason other than greed to continue to hire illegal workers. They have the H1-A program that allows them to import as many workers as they need or want LEGALLY. Problem is they must pay a decent wage and that's why they ignore that program. The excuse that they have to use illegal workers because "crops will rot in the fields" and "fruits and veggies will become very expensive" if they have to pay a decent wage is pure bullsh**t.

They get undocumented crews out in the middle of nowhere and they enslave them. They threaten their lives if they try to escape. It's horrible. A short jump between hiring people illegally for bad pay to actual slavery.

If you eat meat, you support the abuse of workers (not to mention animals, the environment, and rural communities.)

:tinfoilhat:

North American Union threat gets attention of congressmen



While mentioning, the "North American Union", will cause ones credibility to be question, there is a growing concern about its possible fruition.

Maybe all of the dire news about this country's economic state will change American's perception about the NAU and create acceptance for this idea as a means of "survival".

It seems like the last thing Canadians want.

However, what we have been witnessing is the steeple convinced through some "manufactured consent" vehicle to accept policies that are antithetical to their well-being.

Immigration is the latest scare-tactic used by the right-wing to get people in line. Don't fall for it. Immigrants - illegal and legal - are not the United States' biggest problem. We're engaging in an illegal war and occupation overseas. Don't fall for the distraction tactics.

Why are employers not pressured to offer health insurance in order to retain workers? With 12-30 million extra workers in our economy the is no reason to treat workers better.
While I agree it isn't the BIGGEST problem facing our country it is significant. Is it good for our country to lose the 63,000,000,000.00 dollars that is taken out of our economy directly and sent home in remittances?
By the way, if it is a scare-tactic why is President Bush all for illegal immigration?

but you can also blame outsourcing and the "Wal-Mart"-ization of the retail industry for increased pressure on the working poor.

are all far stronger pressures on workers than illegal immigration. Do you seriously think that workers in the U.S. would be better off if there were no illegal immigrants? The corporations would just outsource even more jobs.

Bushco is all for illegal immigration because it gives the corporations a steady source of labor that they can abuse and mistreat, but if there were no illegal immigrants, the corporations would find other ways to abuse and mistreat their workers.

Increased supply reduces the pressure on wages & benefits. I ask you this, are workers better off with the added competition?

Yeah, that makes sense.

By all means we should punish those corporations that exploit them as well.

to organize against their employers, hmmm, do you think that might have anything to do with it?..:think:

I see it a lot where I live.

In fact, if you want to see racism you should see what some of the recent Latino immigrants in my town think of of blacks.

Maybe I could hook you up with some of the older people I know who have been forced to move from their longtime homes to avoid harrassment from some Spanish-speaking newly-minted Americans.

in two different areas. I visited Nogales, Mexico frequently. I would leave Nogales in tears most of the time because it was heartbreaking. The conditions are horrible.

I also used to visit Algodones, Mexico and it was one of the most delightful places I've ever been. The people were some of the warmest people I've ever met. I went so often that many of the vendors knew me by name and I was even invited to some of their homes should I ever get caught on the Mexican side of the border when the crossing closed.

I've given water to Mexicans in the desert. I've had many friends who were Mexicans and I find it impossible to have any anger or hatred toward the illegal immigrants.

This whole immigration thing has gotten blown out of proportion by the media. Nothing changed. It's no different now than it was during Clinton's administration. Border patrol certainly doesn't try to stop the influx of Mexicans into the U.S. when they aren't being scrutinized. The U.S. doesn't want Mexicans to quit coming here.

Fences will never work. You could stand soldiers shoulder to shoulder along the border (well, if you could possibly get enough) and Mexicans would dig tunnels underneath them.

Until the issues in Mexico are dealt with Mexicans will continue to pour into this country. The Mexicans, IMO, are some of the most taken advantage people on the face of the earth. The Mexican government, the Catholic church and U.S. corporations and citizens abuse the Mexican people and yet they remain some of the warmest, most gentle people in general that I have ever met.

I no longer live close to Mexico and I really miss it.

:eyes:

All men are created equal. No one is illegal.

If your theory is right you ought to be able to get a job in Mexico at one of the factory's, right?
Good luck!

Illegal immigration refers to immigration across national borders in a way that violates the immigration laws of the destination country. Under this definition, an illegal immigrant is a foreigner who either has illegally crossed an international political border, be it by land, sea, or air, or a foreigner who has entered a country legally but then overstays his/her Visa in order to live and/or work therein.

Yes, while no one is illegal their actions are illegal.

Because of its economic crisis, the U.S. arbitrarily decided who was “illegal”, basically, they allowed deportation JUST because you WERE Mexican.

Hoover's actions were not bound in law.

We simply acquire land and permanent white majorities through osmosis.

they brake the law to work hard and provide for their family. Kinda like the Sopranos, but peaceful. Catholic too.

streamlined and effective. It takes two years sometimes for paperwork to go through. It's a total joke.

Once the red tape beaurocracy bullshit is taken out of the process, I'd be quite happy with being tough on those who enter the country illegally. But, there needs to be a reform of the current system because it truly doesn't work effectively.

to be legal about it?

to those who are desperate for money, but not nearly as much as people find to shell out to coyotes to bring them across the border.

But, the money is also part of what I meant about our government streamlining the immigration process, making it easy, accessible and understandable. Not leaving people waiting for a year at a time. Make the process and the costs as straightforward as possible. (But, then, they'd have to cut thousands of pointless jobs if they made the beaurocracy less beurocratic.)

I went through the process with my ex-husband, and it took him two freaking years to get his legal residency. Before that he was given working papers with "parole." He was treated like a criminal and cattle at various parts of the process. People woudl line up in Newark at three am to be able to be one of the only 500 people allowed into the building for the day. It was ridiculous and infuriating. Time consuming and debasing. I understand why people don't want to go through the process. It's awful.

But, in all the other countries I've lived in (all two of them), illegal immigrants were aggresively deported. Which is fair enough. But, both of those countries had a much easier and straightforward immigration process. Of course, it wasn't perfect, and there were illegals entering into those countries. But, the systems were fair and understandable.

Just becasue they're in another country?

Bringing everyone here does not solve Mexico's problem. The problems need to be solved on that side of the border. Maybe in 2009 the Mexican people can get help from our government instead of more harmful interference.

and Americans is such a horrible place for its people to live in.

I lived and worked in Quintana Roo for eighteen months somewhat recently. It allowed me to place a human face on the immigration issue I'd never seen prior to that.

Since then, I've little patience or tolerance for anyone who places a greater priority on red and blue lines on a map over that of humanity. It advertises too great a blight on who we are when I see or hear that kind of garbage.


On the upside, my stay there dramatically advertised the strength of family and community we lack-- we make fun of college age students living with parents, while in Mexico it's standard... entire extended families going out together, families going to church together, families living on the same block to maintain familial integrity-- the very things Americans scoff at and avoid at all costs.

So one hand, Mexico is a very poor country. But in reality, I think their culture is so much richer than ours.

less interest in the needs of society at large? I prefer to live in a society that puts priority on public and shared resources (parks, libraries, museums, etc.), rather than people who are mainly looking out for "their own." Isn't that at the heart of Mexico's difficulties? Their rich elite doesn't believe in sharing the wealth, instead they keep it in the family and everyone else is on their own.

I think family can be as oppressive as any other institution, BTW.

:shrug:

it would best be done by putting pressure on the Mexican government to achieve economic and social equality, to fight political and economic corruption, to take responsibility for its own people. This would best be done by forcing young, able-bodied, motivated workers to stay there. Illegal immigration is a pressure valve which takes the heat off the Mexican government. It supports the corruption with remittances.

Mexico is a wealthy nation, in terms of natural resources, with a HUGE disparity between its wealthiest and poorest citizens. Mexico could solve its problems if it wanted to.

It tells me we must do something about our neighboring country and the way it treats its people!!!

We don't have the infrastructure to support more people, and we are now too broke to put more money where it's needed. Letting so many more people into the country will cause our country so much harm we won't be able to help anyone else ever again.

I'm betting you live somewhere other than the border states that will take up most of the proposed immigrants. It seems to always be so.

they are the hardest working, most appreciative and honorable people I ever had the pleasure of dealing with. I respect them tremendously.

it is about helping the Mexicans help themselves. After all, NAFTA moved many production facilities to Mexico, providing decent jobs there.

Yes, I, too, feel for the suffering of the poor and the wretched around the world. How about the people of Darfur? The oppressed people in many parts of Africa? Why not bring them over?

We need to pump aid to countries across the world. The problem is that in many places the ruling regimes grab it and this is it.

We need to send peace keeping forces to ensure that food and medical supplies get to the people who really need it.

The problem is: when you do send UN and other agencies to help in a country, if the bully that rules the country orders them out they, of course, have to leave.

Not to mention those Romanians nurses in Libya who were in jail for infecting kids with AIDS and were ransomed with $400 million.

We need to wake up to what's going on in Mexico NOW.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1334856

of rightless people for the purposes of cheap labor.

What a strange post. Just because some of us would like the borders guarded and the immigration laws enforced, it doesn't mean we don't care about people in need. If you look hard enough within this country you'll find children left to fend for themselves because their parents are working 4, 5 or 6 jobs between them to maintain the family. Shipping all of Mexico to the United States isn't going to solve that country's economic problems and it sure as heck isn't going to help increase wages for America's working poor.

They did have a few Revolutions that failed to change their corrupt Govt. & economic system.
It seems that their Govt. encourages Illegal Immigration into the US. Billions are sent back & their system stays in place.