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mahatmakanejeeves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:02 PM
Original message
Taking Pictures from Amtrak Trains? Verboten
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 04:05 PM by mahatmakanejeeves
Every day diplomacy

By Joel L. Merchant

Countries, like people, make friends with others one at a time. This is a story of one failure. In fairness to an unknown visitor to our country, imagine yourself in his place. The scene is on a recent Amtrak trip between New York City and Boston. The conductor collects tickets, requests identification, folds destination stubs into seatbacks, moves on to other cars. An older man across the aisle, traveling alone, shows his passport. It is clear from their conversation he doesn’t know English.

After decades as a frequent traveler, I have thousands of pictures -- scenery, buildings, people, architecture, from around the world. Today the train passes a lovely stretch of Connecticut shore, tidal marshes, nesting ospreys, the Long Island Sound. What little attention I pay as the visitor takes pictures, is that I’m impressed with his equipment. He and I, unknown to each other, are members of a picture-taking culture, fellow citizens of a show-and-tell world. I wonder if his will join the thousands on YouTube. I imagine, after his return home, how many friends he will impress with stories and pictures of this mild, early autumn, Saturday morning journey along the New England shoreline.

The train is a half hour west of New Haven when the conductor, having finished her original rounds, reappears. She moves down the aisle, looks, stops between our seats, faces the person taking pictures. “Sir, in the interest of national security, we do not allow pictures to be taken of or from this train.” He starts, “I…….” but, without English, his response trails off into silence. The conductor, speaking louder, forcefully: “Sir, I will confiscate that camera if you don’t put it away.” Again, little response. “Sir, this is a security matter! We cannot allow pictures.” She turns away abruptly and, as she moves down the aisle, calls over her shoulder, in a very loud voice, “Put. It. Away!” He packs his camera.

Within a minute after our arrival in New Haven, two armed police officers entered the car, approached my neighbor’s seat. “Sir, we're removing you from this train.” “I….;” “I……” “Sir, you have breached security regulations. We must remove you from this train.” “I…,” “I…..” “Sir, we are not going to delay this train because of you. You will get off, or we will remove you physically.” “I…..”


(continued)

This started out as a thread at Trainorders.com

Another Amtrak Police State Story
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. How I feel reading this right now:
I would be lying if I said I would have sympathy for these cops if a gang got them in a back alley.
:mad:
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Welcome US r A Police State.
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Holy chit!




Sounds like something out of a WW II movie. One where the Gestapo is waiting at the station, looking for the recent escapee from the POW camp. It seems to be getting closer to that point with each passing day.

Papers please?






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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I was thinking more "Stalinist Russia" or mid 1960s East Germany
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 04:22 PM by Up2Late
That's just really stupid, can't take pictures from an Amtrak Train.
What, are they afraid he might photograph our crumbling infrastructure or dilapidated housing?:banghead: :wtf:
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. That story makes my heart bleed. Oh, America, how much I miss you!
My beautiful country! Gone forever as the beacon on the hill, the hope of the world!
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. We're turning into the Soviet Union. n/t
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Loook if you don't do something wrong you've got nothing to fear...
Unless you are brown, or unless you don't speak English, or unless you exercise your free speech.

It's time to admit the Great Experiment is over and it's getting closer to that time, "When in the course of human events..."
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DontTreadOnMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. This has been a very long term policy
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 04:19 PM by DontTreadOnMe
As a film student in the mid-80's... taking pictures, shooting film or video has ALWAYS been strictly forbidden. This applies to ALL public transportation, including buses and subways.

I once made a student film that involved scenes on a Amtrak platform and shots actually on the train. I had to apply for permit with the State Transportation Department and it took MONTHS, but I was finally approved. It granted me a very limited amount of time, which was actually spelled out in exact minutes, and was only valid for ONE day. We had to shoot all the scenes in a manic rush in a time slot that lasted about 6 hours. There was an Amtrak Representative there watching during the entire process. There was an extensive background check on all the members of the shoot, as well as calls to my film school, and an extensive review of the script.

Bottom line... this was in the 1980's. I bet now they do not allow anyone to do any type of "media" or "photography" on trains. It's is more of an insurance thing than anything else. It seems harmless to take some "photographs", but I think they (Dept of Public Transportation) take a harsh stand to just "not allow anything" -- to deter people from attempting to make music videos and other easily created media art.

This same policy applies to places like Courthouses or City hall or your local Police Station. This is not a new policy. If you get permission up front, then they tend to be cooperative. But if they catch you, they come down on your hard -- so this story does not surprise me at all. In fact, I bet the employees are actually trained to deter any filming, video or photography.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I have dozens of pictures taken from an Amtrak train between Minnesota and Montana. Taken in 1988.
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DontTreadOnMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Are we getting a little paranoid?
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 04:24 PM by DontTreadOnMe
I am not condoning the policy! So they didn't catch you when you took your photos... great, I hope you got some great shots... guess what, I made a film in 1985. All I had to do was ask permission.

I am just pointing out that as a film student, this was public policy as far back as 25 years ago.
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. I did it last week with the conductor pretty much right in front of me
he saw the camera, the guy sitting across from me saw the camera and remarked on the great lighting over the city which was the reason I took the shots. Nobody said a word, if it is policy it aint that strict.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. somewhat different
unless you were using one camera set up the entire time and had a crew and cast of one.

a tourist sitting on a train taking pictures of the beautiful scenery and then getting hauled off at the train stop makes me want to vomit because I know of other cases in which people have been tortured for less (i.e. the Canadian guy switching planes in NY who was sent to Syria and tortured.)

What is going on now is not the same.
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DontTreadOnMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. are you missunderstanding?
in the article it states: “Sir, I will confiscate that camera if you don’t put it away.”

So the conductor asked the person to stop and put away the camera... if they had asked if there was a policy that prohibits ANY photography, I bet they would have informed the person that there is in strict policy. I bet it is even posted at EVERY train station.

If the person put away there camera, I bet nothing would have happened.

As a photographer, I have been "hauled out" of events I was not supposed to shoot at... like music concerts. I knew going in I was not supposed to be photographing the event but chose to anyway... when I was thrown out, I didn't accuse the security as being "Communists".
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. It said that the passenger was a tourist, wh didn't understand English.
Most places, such as concerts, have signs posted about taking pictures. I've taken hundreds of photo's out of train windows, airliner windows, etc.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. making a movie is entirely different than a tourist taking pictures
sorry it IS different now. All americans and especially visitors are considered enemies till proven otherwise!
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DontTreadOnMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I guess I should have the right to take photos...
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 04:42 PM by DontTreadOnMe
I guess I should have the right to take photos ANYWHERE I want to... right?

Trains are not the only place "tourist photos" are restricted.
As a professional photographer, I am very aware of the rules! And there are ways to get around the rules, to get the shot.

If you want to argue your way around the rules... you won't get the shot.
In fact you might get your camera smashed. The courts do not favor the argument that you should be allowed to shoot photos anywhere.

Now are you interested in actually getting the shot... or are you just interested in making an argument with the guy trying to enforce some rule? They DON'T ALLOW PHOTOS on trains.
It's a simple rule. If you don't like it, try to change the law. But don't try to argue with the Conductor.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. In the 1960s I took plenty of photos on
the train going from Michigan to Washington D.C. on my senior trip of the scenery. It wasn't an issue whatsoever.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. Not according to some of the posts on that thread
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 04:43 PM by Crunchy Frog
I have hours of video from the windows of Amtrak's trains, if fact in Amtrak's little cards that are placed in sleeping cars it TELLS YOU TO HAVE CAMERA ready at certain locations! Even tells you what side of the train to be on for best photos!
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Where and when did this happen? What you are talking about is COMPLETELY Different from this!
I was "...a film student in the mid-80's..." too in California and even did several video and film scenes at the Santa Barbara Amtrak Station and NEVER ran into what you are talking about.

What this article is talking about is a Train Passenger taking snapshots from his seat as the train is moving NOT "...scenes on a Amtrak platform and shots actually on the train..."!

Of course you had to get permissions and maybe even permits to film scenes from a video or movie at a train station or on a train because that sort of activity disrupts passengers and could even endanger your crew if done recklessly, but the same applies to all public spaces. Do you think film crews just show up at Grand Central Station or Hollywood Boulevard and start setting up to film scenes for a film?

No, they don't. The have to get permit for a variety of reasons.:eyes:

Btw, I've taken the kind of photo this article talks about in England, France, Italy, and Switzerland since 1998 and never been hassled like this in any of those countries. Some of those were on trains like the one that goes though Channel Tunnel between England and France and the High-Speed French train, the TGV.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Remember how the frothing-at-the-mouth conservatives used to
tell us during the Cold War that THIS sort of thing happened all the time in communist countries and was why they were so BAD???

I do.

My, how things have changed.
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Red Zelda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Well, at least this guy
won't be crashing the Capitol Limited into the Empire State Building any time soon!
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. At least they didn't set him off the train in the middle of the woods
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. I ride amtrak alot and now will take my camera.... they'll have to arrest me cause
I will never bow to fascists
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Have a friend sitting across the aisle with a hidden video camera.




It should be interesting when the whole scenario is played back, complete with audio, on the evening news.



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DontTreadOnMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. So you have lots of free time on ya?
Send me a PM with a photo of your local police station cell when you get arrested :)

Tell them your camera is a bomb!
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. I took pictures of the NY skyline from the Acela last week
nobody said a word. I'm not saying this didn't happen but I've never come across it in my travels. Probably just the typical "security" we've come to expect in this country, random, useless and beyond stupid.

Kind of like checking everyones shoes at the airport and not letting people carry on shampoo. It's become a fucking farce in this country.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. I think they have the same rules about trains in North Korea
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
21. From the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority
IV. PROCEDURE
Non-Commercial/Personal Use Photography
No permit is required for non-commercial/personal use pictures taken in public areas. However, any person taking pictures on, in, or of MBTA property, vehicles, or employees must provide proper identification* upon request of an MBTA Transit Police Officer or other MBTA Official. The MBTA Transit Police Officer or other MBTA Official may allow the person to take pictures at the specific location under the following conditions:
• the person provides proper identification;
• the circumstances indicate that the subject(s) of the picture(s) does/do not pose a security or safety threat or in any way cause disruption of service or operations of the MBTA; and
• the picture(s) is/are for personal or educational use only (e.g., tourist, railroad buff, student, artist, etc.).
Non-commercial photographers are prohibited from using tripods, monopods, wiring or any like equipment that may have an impact on the safety of customers or employees and are prohibited from interfering with the free flow of passengers or disrupting service in any manner.


http://www.transitpolice.us/Photo%20Policy/Photo%20Policy%201.pdf

There has to be more to the original story, there usually is.
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DontTreadOnMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Common Sense
This sounds like a fair policy.

It's more of a safety and insurance issue. They are afraid that "somehow, someway" you taking a photograph will cause something to happen where someone gets hurts... then they get sued because they allowed you to take photographs... etc.

Either that or Rudy just doesn't want to get caught on the subway in a dress.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
27. Have we really sunk that low?
I remember the horror tales I was told as a child about how these things happened in the USSR. What is the Bush administration hiding? Next thing you know they will close the borders -- no ins and outs, you know. Of course, they will say they are just trying to protect us. Of course, military installations, chemical and nuclear facilities and similar sensitive locations should be protected from photographers. Is it that hard to build secure walls around such places? Banning cameras in this day of videos on cell phones is a hopeless policy. The only thing this policy will achieve is to make us all feel very helpless and small and spied upon and limited.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
31. Why does Amtrak ENCOURAGE you to take photos and say "have your camera ready"?
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 05:16 PM by Ezlivin
The "camera" symbol on your Route Guide Map marks the best spots, so have your camera ready.

Outside shots:Medium speed films (ISO 200 or higher) are recommended for shooting scenery through the train windows. If your shutter speed is adjustable and light conditions permit,set it at a higher speed (1/125 or 1/250 sec.) for the clearest results. Hold your lens close to the window to Hold your lens close to the window to eliminate glare and reflections.

Inside Shots: Flash is recommended.To avoid glare and reflections,do not point the flash directly at the windows.


Read it at http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/routeguideadirondack.pdf

Case fucking closed.
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Read the fine print ...




**Policy only applies to Caucasian Americans.


:sarcasm:




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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
33. Yikes!
And they wonder why foreign tourists aren't coming here, despite the favorable exchange rates.
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stirlingsliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
34. Achtung! Achtung!
This is truly unfuckingbelievable.

It's as bad as Nazi Germany.
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I don't know what your personal experience was in
Nazi Germany, but from what I've heard over the years from some of my relatives who managed to escape, this isn't anything like that. It's also a bit of an insult to those in my family that didn't get out.
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mahatmakanejeeves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
36. The train crew was misinformed.
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 09:43 PM by mahatmakanejeeves
Or just plain overzealous. You can take pictures from trains. Back before I entered recovery for my railfanning ways, I used to hang around the tracks and take pictures of trains all the time. This was well before 9/11, but despite the hysteria, 9/11 did not change everything, other than the propensity of petty dictators to think of themselves as even more important. Let me add a few links.

Bert P. Krages Attorney at Law Photographer's Rights Page

Download The Photographer’s Right in PDF format

A Stand for Photographer’s Rights

The right to take photographs in the United States is being challenged more than ever. People are being stopped, harassed, and even intimidated into handing over their personal property simply because they were taking photographs of subjects that made other people uncomfortable. Recent examples have included photographing industrial plants, bridges, buildings, trains, and bus stations. For the most part, attempts to restrict photography are based on misguided fears about the supposed dangers that unrestricted photography presents to society.

Ironically, unrestricted photography by private citizens has played an integral role in protecting the freedom, security, and well-being of all Americans. Photography in the United States has an established history of contributing to improvements in civil rights, curbing abusive child labor practices, and providing important information to crime investigators. Photography has not contributed to a decline in public safety or economic vitality in the United States. When people think back on the acts of domestic terrorism that have occurred over the last twenty years, none have depended on or even involved photography. Restrictions on photography would not have prevented any of these acts. Furthermore, the increase in people carrying small digital and cell phone cameras has resulted in the prevention of crimes and the apprehension of criminals.

As the flyer states, there are not very many legal restrictions on what can be photographed when in public view. Most attempts at restricting photography are done by lower-level security and law enforcement officials acting way beyond their authority. Note that neither the Patriot Act nor the Homeland Security Act have any provisions that restrict photography. Similarly, some businesses have a history of abusing the rights of photographers under the guise of protecting their trade secrets. These claims are almost always meritless because entities are required to keep trade secrets from public view if they want to protect them.


Now, an article by Don Phillips, who is a railfan.

Wronged Side of the Tracks?

Wronged Side of the Tracks?
'Railfans' Complain of Police Scrutiny in Terror Era

By Don Phillips
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 15, 2002; Page A01

On a balmy Sunday afternoon late last month, Richard Whitenight did what he often does on his days off: He went to a busy railroad junction in Fort Worth to watch the trains roll by.

But as he sat making notes about passing freight trains, two police cruisers approached. Over the next five hours, Whitenight -- who works for the police department in nearby Arlington, Tex. -- identified himself to the officers. Then he identified himself to the officers' supervisor, then a detective from a terrorism task force, then the FBI. They seized his trainspotter's notebook and grilled him about every mark and note in it. They searched his car and took photos of it, inside and out. Finally, he had to sign a form agreeing never to return to the location known as Tower 55.

Whitenight is one of thousands, perhaps millions, of people around the world who spend much of their time observing and photographing railroad operations out of a love for trains. In general, railroads have encouraged these "railfans" as long as they do not trespass or interfere with operations. Railroads even hold contests to use railfan photographs in calendars, and the Association of American Railroads has started a Web site to encourage the hobby.

But after the FBI announced last month it had credible reports that al Qaeda might be targeting railroads, a growing minority of railfans have been questioned and sometimes searched. A handful have even been threatened with arrest, for pursuing a hobby they have embraced for years.
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