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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:30 AM
Original message
Women helping women escape the porn industry
I have seen plenty of pornography in my lifetime. I am not hating pornography. But the porn industry in America is something that absolutely needs to be addressed immediately. Having looked behind the scenes briefly, I am mortified.

Harmony Dust is a former stripper who was inspired to spend her time working to help women in the porn/exotic dance industry to escape the grip of that life, and find peace in the real world. More importantly, Harmony has formed a group called Treasures Out of Darkness, to help women recover their lives, become whole again and regain their self-esteem. She has over 30 volunteers now - mostly recovering strippers and porn actresses.

Its an unbelievable thing Harmony is doing.

Glamour Magazine has done a 9-page feature on Harmony and her story.
http://www.glamour.com/news/articles/2006/12/stripper

There are a lot of women looking to escape the industry. According to what I am learning, many feel they can't make it any other way. Others feel worthless. Others are in denial as to why their lives are in such disarray. Others (a majority, I understand) use hard-core drugs to get through. I had no idea there was such abuse. No one should be treated that way. Even worse, no one should feel that they have to accept it. There is always a better way.

Where is our government???

If this matters to you, take a look at what Harmony is doing and pass it on.
http://www.iamatreasure.com/about/main.html

She just won the 2007 Dorothy F. Kirby Outstanding Youth Social Worker from the National Association of Social Workers (NASW).
http://www.naswca.org/Awards/2007awardees.htm

Note: I am not passing judgment on pornography. But I had no idea about the level of sexual/physical abuse, the drugs, the STDs and other disgusting things rampant in the industry. Something has to be done. The Dem party, in my opinion, should be all about fighting this kind of stuff.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. kick
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. Isn't she one of the "converted" Bible beaters? Kind of like "faith based initiative?
Or have I mistaken her for another?
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. maybe you are thinking of jc`s girls
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/185/story_18586_1.html
Lori Albee of Christian ministry JC's Girls Girls Girls on porn, strippers, the Adult Expo, God, Jesus. Interview by Dena Ross -- Beliefnet.com
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. There are plenty of fake churches and scams out there
You can't have freedom of religion without accepting that some crooked people will take advantage. They never seem to go away.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
53. Maybe you're correct.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. She is a christian, if that's what you mean
I've read what she's written. She hasn't beaten anyone with it. Its all been positive. And she does it for free, unlike others who give great speeches for top dollar, but can't bother to show up when someone is in need. She is running a real charity.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. yum, slippery melted butter....
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 12:34 AM by mike_c
:popcorn:
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. that's hawt
:popcorn:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
59. Icy...
Beverages would go nicely with that!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. You know COMCAST . . . makes $500 MILLION a year from porn --- !!!!
And that's probably an old figure ---
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Yep, Its sickening - nt
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
130. OH MY GAWD THAT'S HORRIBLE!!!!
Selling stuff people want is just terrible, isn't it? :eyes:
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #130
156. Yeah, I mean, it's not like anyone on DU takes issue with worker exploitation, slavery, employment
abuse, unethical treatment of human beings, economic abuse under capitalism, etc, right?

Those aren't a few of our values, obviously.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thisis a big subject -- internet expansion -- crossover into child porn ---
This subject really doesn't get the time and attention it deserves ....
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. Joe Camel is illegal. Abusing young girls? No problem.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #23
42. Actually, porn involving non-adults is patently illegal.
Usually, when people attempt those kinds of conflations, it means there's something fundamentally lacking in their core argument- like when anti-pot crusaders bring up heroin.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #42
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #55
73. Try looking at the post you were responding to.
I think it's reasonable to assume the sub-thread was about non-adults. But whatever.

As for checking your links, there's a lot of stuff on the internet. I'm not really interested in looking at most of it. Why don't you summarize it for me, if it's that important to you?
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. I'll pass. But thanks for the offer
If knowing what's going on isn't enough for you, then there's nothing I can say that will convince you.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #76
94. One thing about the internet is, you can find just about anything on it.
Somewhere I'm sure there's a site for people who like cream cheese on women's toes. "Look! The internet is overrun with cream cheese toe-eaters!"

I have a baseline philosophical standard: Consenting adults. If everyone involved is a consenting adult, they're entitled to make their own decisions.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #94
114. Ah yes, consenting adults.
"The law in all its majesty forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges and stealing bread".
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Right. "Consenting adults" rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes.
Far more sensible to let the government run people's affairs. Here's another quote for you, since you like 'em so much:

'When you make love you're using up energy; and afterwards you feel happy and don't give a damn for anything. They can't bear you to feel like that. They want you to be bursting with energy all the time. All this marching up and down and cheering and waving flags is simpIy sex gone sour. If you're happy inside yourself, why should you get excited about Big Brother and the Three-Year Plans and the Two Minutes Hate and all the rest of their bloody rot?'


Yes, it's so important that government be able to control the sex lives of consenting adults...

...isn't it?




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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #114
214. And . . . let's not link the huge growth in pornography here to what's happening with female sexual
enslavement --- and child sexual abuse --- all over the planet!!!

Of course, they couldn't be connected ----!!!

And, of course, they would have NOTHING to do with the rise of the right . . . !!!


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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #214
230. Nope. Can't argue with a rock-solid thesis like that. .... !!!
I'M SERIES ... !!!

:banghead:
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
85. Yet there are many adult porn "actors" who look "non-adult"
And play right into the fact, using their young look, dressing like a youngster... in this case it may look like a duck and quack like a duck, but it's not a duck. Perfectly legal, perfectly perverted.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. And that's creepy, I'll grant you that.
But I don't think that constitutes "all porn" or even "most porn". It's like Britney Spears wearing a Catholic Schoolgirl outfit. Doesn't do a thing for me, but I don't think I'm the target market.

Beyond that I'm not sure what one is supposed to do about it from a legal standpoint, if everyone involved is of legal age.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #85
215. That was also a big gimmick with tobacco --- Ever seen one of those huge billboards . . .
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 01:42 AM by defendandprotect
where they would use what looked like teenagers --- some blowing bubble gum --- others smoking?

The advertising industry is being used in the worst possible ways now . . .

as is MSM ---

How many TATOO parlors --- PLASTIC SURGERY SERIES ---

How many GAMBLING SHOWS ON TV NOW . ..

In fact, I was reading today that illegal gambling parlors are opening up --

So we can see that this stuff works to draw younger people in ---

And, everywhere, of course, small groups of white men discussing the current political nonsense issue.

While women on TV clean the Johns --- and bare their breasts --- !!!!


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #42
116. From what I understand it's happening that adult porn is very often crossing
with child porn on the internet ---

It may be illegal, but it's happening ---


And --- let's look at what porn is anyway --- exploitation ---
pornogrpahy basically means stories of whores/prostitutes ---
pornography is often violent and supports themes of domination ---
often women are forced or intimidated into making these films ---

WHAT about all of that would triggers ejaculation?
And what are the similarities to being able to overpower a child?



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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #116
117. If you've got actual evidence of people dealing in such a thing, call the FBI. They're breaking
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 05:47 AM by impeachdubya
very serious laws. Anyone who harms children should go to jail.

But anyone who, for the sake of an agenda, deliberately conflates harming children with activities by and for consenting adults is seriously out of line.

Like I said- if you are actually know something about what you claim taking place, call the authorities. Report it. Actually, you're probably mandated by law to report it.

But even in the age of Bush, I suspect they won't take too kindly to arguments that what you're really upset about is adult porn, which is "basically the same thing". :eyes:

"from what you understand" porn is violent, women are all doing it against their will, and you're stuck on the Greek Definition of "porno"+"Graphios" as if it proves jack diddly.

Your arguments essentially run like this: "Accounting involves magical pots of gold, and most accountants are leprechauns"

To which the inevitable reply is, "Can you prove that accounting involves magical pots of gold or that most accountants are leprecauns?"

And then you seem to think you're cementing the deal by going "Everyone knows that accounting involves magical pots of gold and most accountants are leprechauns".

Yeah, it's hard to argue with that sort of ironclad logic.

In short, your understanding is WRONG. And you haven't proved one single statement you've made in any of these threads, although that hasn't stopped you from repeating yourself. I've given up on you actually backing up these axiomatic statements you keep making, at this point I'd settle for you just fessing up as to the sources from which you've received this "understanding" of yours.

But.. okay, so you want to see an example of the kind of evil, oppressive, violent imagery that I find visually stimulating?

Here.



Yep. That's what turns me on. I'm guilty! Guilty as charged. Help me, I'm a very sick man! I throw myself on the mercy of the court.

I could find something more graphic, but that would clearly be against the rules. But just taking that picture of that particular woman.. Or imagine a similar image, except the beautiful woman is naked or even having sex with a man...

WHERE is the violence in those images? Where is the "theme of domination"?

What in Eris's Green and Holy Earth can you possibly think is so god-damn unhealthy about adults finding adult members of the opposite (or same) sex physically, visually, sexually attractive?

Good grief. You know, I don't know why I'm bothering. You're the one who needs to explain yourself. Being turned on by erotic images of sexy people is normal. Get a grip.



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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #117
119. Get a grip is right.
Anti-porners on both sides of the fence are a seriously strange and disturbing lot. I'm not even kidding on this one.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #117
149. People who have studied what's happening on the internet say this is happening ---
that there is an overlapping with the interest of the exploitation of females into a subtle area of interest in childlike figures ---

THIS is all going to have a long way to go ---
I see that most of us don't have time for this issue but I think we're going to have to make time because it is a serious and growing issue in America.

In fact, I noticed that in one of the celebrity divorces where there is child custody issue, that the wife noted the husband's involvement with porn --- and that she noticed some of it was child porn --- and this was internet.

Once people are paying for the sites . . . evidently it becomes another universe in scope and contacts ---

And --- since when are we talking about YOU . . . ???

I think you're a little overly sensistive on this broad issue ---
we're not discussing your life, are we?






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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #149
153. How is it about me? It's not. If anything, it's about you, and the fact that you haven't backed up a
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 08:20 PM by impeachdubya
single assertion you've made.

But in the process, you've thrown more than a few personal insults my way, and a few at some other people. Beyond that, you've repeatedly made blanket statements about what supposedly turns "men" or "most men" on- I can't speak for them, only for myself, as a man. So I've answered you based on my own experience.

Hey, at least my posts make a modicum of linear sense.

I don't know which "celebrity divorce" you're talking about- although the topic does clue me in as to maybe where you're getting your 'news' from- but if Celebrity Cad so and so really was guilty of what you say, he should have been prosecuted.

Like I said, that's a crime. Even on the "internets".
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #153
221. YOU have made the discussion personally about YOU . . .
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 02:10 AM by defendandprotect
Again, you don't seem to remember what you write ---

I don't see that anyone is interested in your taste in porn, what you view or what you don't view ---what turns you on ---

But you seem anxious to tell and display it --- !!!





QUOTE:
But.. okay, so you want to see an example of the kind of evil, oppressive, violent imagery that I find visually stimulating?

Here.

See photo at msg #116

Yep. That's what turns me on. I'm guilty! Guilty as charged. Help me, I'm a very sick man! I throw myself on the mercy of the court.

I could find something more graphic, but that would clearly be against the rules. But just taking that picture of that particular woman.. Or imagine a similar image, except the beautiful woman is naked or even having sex with a man...

WHERE is the violence in those images? Where is the "theme of domination"?

What in Eris's Green and Holy Earth can you possibly think is so god-damn unhealthy about adults finding adult members of the opposite (or same) sex physically, visually, sexually attractive?

Good grief. You know, I don't know why I'm bothering. You're the one who needs to explain yourself. Being turned on by erotic images of sexy people is normal. Get a grip.

UNQUOTE

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #221
229. You "don't see that..." well, maybe that's because you can't comprehend what other people write.
You just spout the same gobbledygook, over and over, like a broken record. It's fucking useless. You're like talking to a brick wall.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
321. which takes us to human trafficking. We should have a good discussion on human trafficking
in fact, I'm writing a paper on it for one of my classes and I'm just beginning to do some research. I would love to hear what people know/think about the issue.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. Brace yourself. The apologists will be along shortly.
But thank you so much for posting this. What should be so obvious to anyone with an ounce of human compassion seems to escape the awareness of many of the so-called progressives here. We're supposed to be against exploitation and turning people into commodities. Yet when it comes to porn, there's this weird disconnect where a lot of progressives suddenly become callous libertarians and act like certain people are born to be used and degraded by others. And to suggest otherwise is to deprive the users of their "free speech".
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. How many of those "progressives" are men?
Just sayin because I don't think men-even the most enlightened of men-get how much porn degrades, objectifies and exploits women.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:57 PM
Original message
And men too... don't forget about gay porn.
Or are men not as easy a target for infantilization?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
124. Probably at least half! Burn 'em! n/t
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
171. You would be wrong, and take progressive out of quotes
Me, LeftyMom, Shakespeare, Blogslut, Seattlegirl, Bibaby, libnc, etc. All very progressive, all female, all of various sexual orientations, all who have earned their DU progressive cred, and all not anti-porn.

We also have quite a few sex workers on here who all also are progressive and "normal" (in quotes because normal is different for everyone).
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
41. Porn thread? Wouldn't miss it.
Especially when it involves the anti-porn gang chumming it up with the religious right.

Big surprise.

Bottom line, though, if women want to leave porn that should be their choice just as surely as they should have the freedom to be involved in it in the first place. That's the whole point. People making up their OWN minds.

I think post #30 sums it up better than I ever could.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
68. Actually, impeachdubya, a lotta people in the religious right are big porn users
http://religionnews.com/press02/PR101407A.html

The 'chumming up' seems to be going on all around, doesn't it?

That said, I'm really tired of being accused of aligning myself with a movement (religious fundamentalism) that I find abhorrent and I'm asking you to please stop doing it. Yes, some conservatives avail themselves of language of feminism to go after porn, to try and criminalize it. That is their goal, not mine. They hate porn because they hate sex and they don't trust themselves. I dislike most mainstream porn because I hate the way it perpetuates stereotypes and presents a narrow, limited view of sexuality and sexual expression.

To me, porn is the Fox News of sex. I don't wish to shut down Fox News but I will call them on their lies and distortions and I believe that people should have alternatives to the Fox network for their news. I think most people on DU would agree with that and no one would be accused of trying to censor Fox News, or the news in general for saying that. The Right has co-opted and distorted patriotism, the family, populism, civil liberties, and numerous other social and democratic ideals. I don't see anyone who believes strongly in the true meaning of those ideals being told to shut up by other progressives because of it, with the exception of feminists who are critical of pornography.

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #68
95. You know what? When you guys start a thread saying "We approve of sexual expression by and for
consenting adults, we understand that many adults enjoy visual stimulation including images or films of other people having sex. Rather than railing endlessly against 'bad art', let's talk about what would constitute 'good art'. Visual, explicit erotica featuring consenting adult sex that folks of all persuasions could enjoy in the privacy of their homes.. What would it look like, what would it consist of? Taking a break from pointing out what we don't like, let's take a positive view of erotica and sexuality and try to imagine what thoughtful erotica presented as a counter to lame mainstream porn would be like."

When you start that thread, I'll be there.

Actually, I bet there'd be a market for it.

You say the agenda isn't censorship. Given what we've seen in these threads previously, I have a hard time believing it. But I'll take you at your word.

Personally, I don't think Porn is the "Fox News" of Sex. I don't believe there's a centralized agenda behind it. I do think a lot of it is to sex like Cheez Whiz is to food. But what's my answer to that? Endlessly protesting cheez whiz? Some people like cheez whiz. I won't touch it.

And I haven't told anyone to "shut up". We're averaging a porn war a month, these days (with the requisite link to the same Robert Jensen piece on Alternet- "look! It's a MAN who says Porn is Bad! See?") so if anyone is trying to silence anyone else it's not working so well. I've acknowledged that I think some porn is undeniably misogynist. I do not think "all porn" is, and when people make bald-faced nonsense statements like "most porn involves violence", I think they have a resposnsibility to back up that assertion or at least cop to where they're getting it from.

Frankly, I think that there's is intolerance of other views on all sides of this. Feminists who do not buy into the Dworkin-MacKinnon dogma, feminists who are pro-porn, have all kinds of crap hurled at them. You know this. I realize you personally are not a fan of the religious right. I apologize if it seemed I was implying otherwise. But it's undeniable that certain figures in the anti-porn movement who call themselves "liberals" have aligned themselves with the religious right in various guises. Dworkin herself did. Does that mean they aren't "real" liberals? I've been called not a "real" liberal because I think consenting adults should be free to participate in or watch depictions of sex involving other consenting adults. I've had far worse insults than that thrown at me for it, actually.

But like I said- if the problem is that mainstream porn sucks, cool- maybe someone should try a discussion about how visual erotica and graphic depictions of sex could be produced better. Seems to me there's always room for aesthetic improvements in just about any art form. But if the problem is the mere existence of graphic depictions of sex, the mere existence of pictures of naked women (or men) that people look at and maybe masturbate to, I'd suspect there's not going to be a ton of common ground.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #95
123. Why don't YOU get off YOUR ass and work on improving porn ?
Gah!! Yet another instance of someone demanding that feminists work on something that he's decided is important, or else he won't respect us. What, are your arms and legs broken? Do women have to do EVERYTHING for you?

So now we're supposed to get to work on producing higher quality and more artistic images for dudes to masturbate to. Sorry, we got better things to do with our time.

I have a serious suggestion for you: Start your own production company to make "thoughtful erotica" that "presents a positive view of sexuality". Then show the fruits of your efforts to us Dworkin/McKinnon meanies and WE'LL tell YOU if you've succeeded.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #123
144. I'm just asking a legitimate question.
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 04:36 PM by impeachdubya
Since porn "as it exists today" is unacceptable, apparently, what would constitute sexually explicit films or pictures of naked adults or naked adults having sex that you would consider acceptable?

See, I'm betting the answer is "Nothing. There is none".

I suspect the problem isn't that porn is "the FOX News of Sex", so much as it is that porn exists. Period.

Because believe me, I've been around enough Dworkin indoctrinates to know that when you get right down to it, it's heterosexual sex itself that is the "problem", at least "under Patriarchy" (which, as I've said before, is essentially the same thing as saying "in this solar system") ... As far as I can tell, there is NO WAY to present images of heterosexual penetrative sex that the Dworkin/MacKinnon crowd would find non-oppressive or non-exploitative because it is the heterosexual sex itself that is oppressive and exploitative.

Sure, if you've been told often enough that hetero sex is inherently coercive and violent, of course you're going to see violence in depictions of hetero sex, and you're not going to believe that women are capable of consenting to appear in them- because they're not really capable of consenting to penetrative sex with men, period.

I think it's disingenuous to make like the argument is not about censorship and is only about the implied messages supposedly contained in "mainstream porn", and then turn around (as you have done in this thread) and say that "consent of individual women is not relevant". Oh, really. How magnanamous of you to say that their own individual opinions don't matter. Look- if women are actually being forced into porn against their will, that's against the law. And it should be.

But if the basis for that argument is some kind of cockamamie Dworkinite Gibberish about how the "patriarchy" means no women consent to sex, ever, under any circumstances, I think you should cop to that, too.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #144
145. You obviously know fuck all about Dworkin
I guaran-damn-tee you have never read a single book or full length essay by her, based on what you just said. It's probably too much to ask you to quit being so fucking LAZY, but how about actually, you know, reading some her stuff before you start yammering about "...cockamamie Dworkinite Gibberish about how the "patriarchy" means no women consent to sex, ever, under any circumstances..." If that's too strenuous for you, why don't you google the "all heterosexual sex is rape" comment attributed to Dworkin and learn the truth?

Because you have just outed yourself as a kneejerk MRA, my friend. And if you don't know what an MRA is, look that up too.

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #145
151. Oh, yes, let's talk about what Dworkin actually said.
Stuff like "intercourse is the formalized expression of mens' contempt for women".

If she never uttered the exact sentence "all heterosexual sex is rape" her theses certainly hinged on the nonsensical idea that most of it pretty much equated out to rape.

I'm sure you've seen these other Dworkin quotes:

Men are distinguished from women by their commitment to do violence rather than to be victimized by it.

No woman needs intercourse; few women escape it.

Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free.

Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. In seduction, the rapist often bothers to buy a bottle of wine.

You think intercourse is a private act; it's not, it's a social act.

Childbearing is glorified in part because women die from it.

For men I suspect that this transformation begins in the place they most dread -- that is, in a limp penis. I think that men will have to give up their precious erections and begin to make love as women do together.




Face it- her view was that heterosexual sex as practiced by most humans on this planet was pathological. I'm plenty familiar with her "material", TYVM.

Beyond that, I would consider myself an IRA, with the "I" standing for "individuals". I know, that position doesn't gel very well, either, with the dogmas of the all-women-as-perpetual-victims-who-are-being-constantly-set-upon-by-the-conspiracy-of-the-erect-penis set, but in case you haven't noticed, a lot of women call bullshit on that gibberish, too.

Yes, challenge any aspect of the dogma and alarm bells start clanging. I'm being blacklisted by the dreaded patriarchy-blaming squad? Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken so long.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #151
162. A few phrases, lazily pulled out of context
Hell, I don't even think you did it yourself. Looks like the kind of compendium one could cut and paste from a site created by some MRA from his mom's basement. (And the comments you personally added were just...well...creepy.)

Again, you haven't read Dworkin, you are "familiar" with her in the way that most people are who hold her up as the ultimate man-hating Strawfeminist. She was a real person with a real life who wrote prolifically. She loved and lived with men. Some of what she wrote is angry and disturbing, but a lot of it was beautiful and hopeful and inspiring. Before I read a few of her books and essays, I too thought she was this angry woman who believed all sex was rape. After I read her I would never conclude that. Her controversial statements were observations about the world as it is, but she made it clear that she believed in the human capacity for change and growth.

As for you, you can call yourself an MRA, an IRA, a 401k, or whatever you want, I call you a dinosaur. The patriarchy is on its way out, no matter how much you rant and rave about it. And like any reactionary movement in it's last throes, it lashes out angrily.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #162
176. Right. To many, she was "refreshingly honest". Just like Ann Coulter is, to some.
She felt that she was sane, and most of the rest of the human race was insane. Generally, with people like that, it's the other way around.

"she loved and lived with men". She lived with one man, for a while, in a torturedly abnormal -by any definition- relationship. She felt penetrative sex was evil and abusive on its face. That's fine and all well and good, but please don't try to paper over what she said and believed in. She felt that heterosexual penetrative sex was "probably beyond redemption", that it was the central act of oppression in society.

I'm sorry, but that's way fuckin' creepier than anything I've ever said.

And as much as you'd like to turn this into a discussion about how the phallocracy has conspired to slime the brave name of Andrea Dworkin, I notice you still haven't addressed a single question I've asked, like: "is the 'problem' with with porn the way heterosexual sex is graphically depicted in it, or is the 'problem' the fact that heterosexual sex is depicted, period?"

Actually, what's on it's way out is your particular brand of "feminism", as evidenced by the many sex-positive feminists whose definition of equality doesn't depend on women-as-perpetual-victims being "protected" from pictures or films of consenting adults fucking.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #176
180. The problem with (most) porn is that it depicts objectification and degradation
You are attempting to make me accept your frame, as evidenced by the use of the term "sex-positive" to your particular brand of feminism. I ain't buying it. "Sex-positive" is nothing but disingenuous polemic bullshit. It's a phrase used to define your opposition as "sex-negative" by default. It's only applicable if you think porn and the sex industry are indistinguishable from sex. It's just as easily argued that I'm the sex-positive one and you are sex-negative, since you apparently can't envision any kind of sexuality outside the narrow, commercialized confines of porn. Only I wouldn't argue that because I don't think either one of us are against sex.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #180
216. Again --- just want to say this is a hugely important thread and I think DU
need to devote much more time to this issue ---

despite it's always being a very, very busy place ---

This subject really deserves a big spotlight ---

And, thank you to those trying to get more attention for this subject!!!!


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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #176
206. Oh, and to address your question:
Edited on Sun Nov-11-07 11:08 PM by thecatburgler
"is the 'problem' with with porn the way heterosexual sex is graphically depicted in it, or is the 'problem' the fact that heterosexual sex is depicted, period?"

I'm addressing it rather than answering it because I feel it's a stupid question that doesn't deserve an answer.

I will tell you that on more than one occasion, when I have included explicit (though anatomically correct and non-profanity laden) descriptions of a typical scenes from the currently very popular "gang bang" genre of porn films in a post, that post has been deleted by the mods. A thread that I started in the Feminists Group was locked, even though none of the man-hating, sex-phobic, prudes who regularly post in the group alerted or complained that I'm aware of.

Now, let's think about this....Hmm....Why do you suppose those posts were deleted and that thread locked, impeachdubya?

Because, according to the mod, they violated DU rules by being too "graphic" and "offensive".

Graphic and offensive. Violated DU rules. Too much for the delicate sensibilities of our readers here. Mind you, these were just verbal descriptions of the normal ol' non-degrading heterosexual sex that one finds in a harmless porn film, easily available on the Internets. And I'm not the only member who has had posts deleted for accurately describing what goes on in porn.

So I guess it's not just me. Democratic Underground apparently has a 'problem' with 'graphically depicted' heterosexual sex too.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #206
211. I'm just wondering where the differentiation between films of non-degrading heterosexual sex
and the kind that involves "degradation" and "objectification" lies. :shrug:

Democratic Underground has the right to decide what kind of content they want on this site. You can't stump for Ralph Nader here, but I'd suspect you wouldn't think that makes the speech promoting, say, Green Party candidates "degrading" or "objectifying", much less obscene.

They don't want pictures of sex here or graphic sex threads, that's their business. (I suspect the problem with those threads you mention may have lay elsewhere, anyway) They also don't want links to Anti-Semitic websites or Rush Limbaugh apologia. Their house, their rules.

Nevertheless, we know- we have seen enough threads, again, with the requisite Robert Jensen alternet piece- where a few assorted uglier examples of porn were floated as representative of "all porn" or "most porn". The standard tack is to take these examples and then attempt to claim that this is what porn "is" or what "most porn" is. You've done that in your post- you admit that examples were posted from a "gang bang" porn, then downpost try to claim that, "mind you, this is normal non-degrading heterosexual sex". Well, I don't necessarily think that a "gang bang" has to be degrading (is it only degrading when a woman has sex with multiple men? What about a man having sex with multiple women? Mind you, these are pretty common fantasy motifs in the population at large, if you weren't aware) but leaving that aside, you yourself say that "gang bang" films are a genre in porn. But wait- I thought those scenes were indicative of all porn? Are you saying that the criterion for porn being non-objectifying and non-degrading is "one man and one woman"? At least that gives us a standard to work with. Nevertheless, I would wager that the VAST MAJORITY of sex acts depicted in porn are just that- one man with one woman.

I've said myself I think some porn is undeniably misogynist. I don't think it's the majority of porn, not by a longshot. But, then, I don't think that the heterosexual sex act is degrading to women (or men) and I don't think that pictures of naked women (or pictures of naked men) are inherently "degrading" or "objectifying", either.

So for the sake of argument, let's just start with a simple sexually explicit picture of a naked woman. Is a picture of a naked woman inherently 'degrading'? 'Objectifying'? If a man gets aroused while looking at the picture, does it then suddenly magically become 'degrading' and 'objectifying'?

What is the criteria?

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #211
213. What is YOUR criteria? I can't tell from your post.
You say that depiction of a gang bang isn't necessarily degrading. Yet in the same paragraph, you find it necessary to reassure me that the VAST MAJORITY of sex acts depicted in porn are one man with one woman. Why? If there is nothing inherently degrading about a typical gang bang scene, then it wouldn't matter if that was what constituted every single porn film being made today, would it?

BTW, that's a rhetorical question because I honestly don't give a shit what you think at this point and I'm pretty sure the feeling's mutual. You keep pestering me with all these asinine hypothetical questions about different types of sexual material, obviously in the hopes I'll answer in some way you can go "GOTCHA!" with. It's really tiresome, you know. This dialogue is starting to remind me of the creepy wingnut loser coworkers who were always trying to corner me into conversations about whether what Bill Clinton did with Monica Lewinsky was "really sex or not" back in the '90s. Eew. :puke:

So you admit that "some porn is undeniably misogynist". Wow, that's big of you. But you're apparently willing to tolerate it, as evidenced by the amount of bandwidth you spend disparaging those of us who point it out. Basically it boils down to you thinking that degrading people for entertainment is okay and me thinking it's not.

With that said, I'm putting you on ignore now. Go harangue someone else.

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #213
225. Sho nuff. I guess actual answers and discussion are just too strenuous.
Whether or not you're reading this- and you're right, I could give a shit- I answered your question in the post you were responding to. I don't think that a "gang bang" is inherently degrading, I think that sex with multiple people at one time is a fairly common fantasy among people.

But you were clearly attempting to say that whatever examples of 'gang bang porn' you dredged up from Robert Jensen were indicative of all porn or most porn. Leaving aside the question of whether a gang bang is degrading, your example obviously ISN'T indicative of "most porn", because I think it would be a simple statistical matter to figure out that most sex in commercially available porn doesn't involve gang bangs.

I understand why you won't want to have a discussion that's not 100% on your terms, i.e. "teh menz suck!". I know, it's no fun to make statements like "porn is objectifying and violent and bad an' stuff'" and have to back it up with, you know, facts.

Some porn I would categorize as misogynist. Yes, it's "big of me" to say that. I realize that's not the 100% party line, which is that any pictures of naked women or pictures of adults fucking are a crime against humanity, but that's my take on it. Does that mean I 'tolerate' misogynist porn? I tolerate a lot of stuff that involves consenting adults or other entertainment. I 'tolerated' the Look Who's Talking Movie Franchise. I 'tolerate' the shitty music that dominates most of the airwaves today. In short, I'm not in the censorship business.

Like I said upthread; if someone wants to have a discussion about what would constitute thoughtful, intelligent, better consenting adult erotica, I think that would be a different direction to take the subject-- because these threads end up being fairly useless. People involved in the adult industry here have raised issues of unions and better working conditions. Right on. But I strongly suspect that the anti-porn crusaders here at DU won't be involved, because when push comes to shove it's not about not liking certain messages in or types of porn, it's about wanting to stamp out pictures or films of consenting adults nude or having sex, particularly if someone somewhere might get turned on by them. That's the goal, and it's disingenuous to pretend it isn't.

I haven't harangued you with questions, in fact I really have only asked variations on one question: If it's not the mere act of graphically displaying heterosexual penetrative sex on film that is the "problem" with porn-in-general, then what is it? And why should anyone believe folks who reverently quote Andrea Dworkin on this subject at the drop of a hat that it's not the heterosexual penetrative sex itself that is the problem, when it's pretty fuckin' clear that was HER problem?

What is degrading about consenting adult graphic depictions of sex? What is degrading about consenting adult nudity?

It's clear you don't want to answer or address ANY of it, you just want a nice echo chamber to grouse about it in. Bye.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #211
231. so, you have no problem your daughter being a stripper, prostitute or porn star?
my three males, father and two brothers are great fans, and if i had chosen that job they would have more than flipped. yet they will tell me how noble and honorable the job is. rollin eyes.

most all males AND females do not respect the stripper, porn star and prostitue. that is simple enough.

some groups in our society chose to live in the seedier realm of life, for different reasons, different experience. i am all for it. they make their choices for their reasons.

but i dont need to pretend, or pretty it up.... the reality of that life.

the two times i was around male and pornography it was to put women in their place, to degrade. used by male

i have heard how men talk about these women... AND girls. it is not pretty, and it is not with respect.

i am not in this battle. i dont want it in my life. i wouldnt even be in this thread if this shit wasnt being thrown in my face in every day life, but it is. i dont want my young sons to be watching this shit on prime time tv shows, thinking this is what being a female is about. and i dont want my young nieces watching this thinking this is what being female is about.

so males dont respect these females
women dont respect these females
males dont want their daughters doing it
we dont want our sons to think this is what a female is for
we dont want our daughters to be this

yet.... you tell us what it is all about

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #206
220. Had no idea that . . .
"I'm not the only member who has had posts deleted for accurately describing what goes on in porn."

And the invitations to look at a LINK are also cute little challenges ---
As though we are naive about what is being shown --
and, as though lots of people aren't already picking up ads for porn in their e-mail every day!!!

Again --- Comcast alone is making more than $500 million a year from porn --

We have to keep at this subject on DU --- it needs a lot of time and attention.




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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #123
232. You are not seriously trying to assert
that only men watch porn? OMG! The absolute ignorance about the porn industry AND about feminism is truly astounding.

1. MANY MANY women DO like porn. Not all porn, but neither do all men like all porn.

2. I'm guessing the vast majority of women and men in the porn industry are there because they want to be. I've nothing to back up those statistics but neither do you have any statistics with all porn workers are victims and need to be "saved."

3. Contrary to the uber-feminist beliefs, WOMEN LIKE SEX! Women like all kinds of sex (I'd elaborate but this isn't the board for it).

LTH<---Long-time feminist, porn enjoyer and occasional slut. Thank you.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #232
237. Ooooh....let me guess.....You're a 'Pro Sex Feminist'!
I've already addressed what bullshit that trope is in another post.

Moreover, I'm more than a little tired of women like you implying things about MY sexuality because I don't happen to think that mainstream porn represents it. And yes - that's exactly what you did when you pulled that "contrary to uber-feminist beliefs..." crap.

I'm guessing the vast majority of women and men in the porn industry are there because they want to be. I've nothing to back up those statistics but neither do you have any statistics with all porn workers are victims and need to be "saved."

Yeah, you don't have shit to back that up. You probably don't know where the porn you watch comes from, let alone in what context the "choices" of the performers were made. Tell yourself whatever fantasy you want about how they are all freespirited artists expressing themselves. Just get the fuck away from me with your tired-assed cliches and insults, please.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #237
239. I never said anything about
your sexuality. The term "couldn't care less" truly applies here. Mainstream porn IS crap. It's like 80% of the internet is crap. It's like 98% of TV is crap. You have to look for the good stuff. But I digress as I don't see what this has to do with the "all-porn-workers-need-to-be-saved" POV.

My uber-feminist referral has to do with those who believe that women who express and even celebrate their sexuality are somehow being subjugated. News flash: We're not! We LOVE sex. And many of us like porn. And many of us like lots of other things the uber-feminists says we're not supposed to like. Really, the vast majority of us (women who enjoy sex) are not victims.

And you're wrong, I do know from whence most my porn comes -- mostly the San Fernando Valley. :evilgrin:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #239
241. what uber feminist has told us we are not suppose to like sex?
and how do you get that all that say no to porn are uber feminist? why, because you defend and like the trade does that allow you (women who enjoy sex).... like if we dont use porn, we dont enjoy sex. and what part of your post is not offensive?
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #241
244. Never did I say that:
"All that say no to porn are uber feminists." They are just ONE faction. And never did I make the assertion that those who don't enjoy porn don't enjoy sex. YOU said that. MY assertion is that not all people in the porn industry need "saving." This seems to be a major point for the uber-feminists and the fundies (now THERE'S an odd pairing). If people are in the porn industry that don't want to be in it, for goddess sakes, get out! But the writer I was originally responding to was trying to make the point that ONLY men make porn for ONLY men (couldn't POSSIBLY be that women enjoy porn as well) and that all adult film participants are victims. That is simply inaccurate.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #244
246. again, making an argument when not said. no one said ALL
no one said save all. no one said all being used or exploited. no one said all wanted out

firstly

then, if you cannot relate to the person stuck in it and needing help out of it when they want out of it, yet not knowing or having will to get out thru their own will, that is your lack of compassion and insite to the human being. this would be no different than many other areas in life where getting out is the logical yet not so easy solution and people help these people.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #246
248. Actually, if you read the posts on this
thread, you'll see where many are advocating "saving" them.

Your second paragraph is a personal attack which, not knowing anything about me IRL, cannot possibly have any basis in reality. In fact, if you knew what I've worked very hard for for the last 30 years you'd actually be embarrassed that you'd made that assertion.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #248
250. people are in the porn industry that don't want to be......get out!
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 11:34 AM by seabeyond
the person attack you feel i made came from this comment. hence my comment that not so easy. was it presumptuous of me to perceive you thought it so simple for a person to just "get out"? i dont know. kinda thinkin you lead me to believe you felt it so.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #250
251. Never did I use the word "easy"
in that sentence. You guys seem to want to put words in my mouth. Getting out of the porn industry can be done. I KNOW this from experience. Is it easy? Nope. Can it be done? Yep. I've see it happen. Literally hundreds of times.

Porn industry workers are in the same boat as Strippers and high-dollar prostitutes. And let's get real. In a lot of cases it's about the money. There is LOTS and LOTS of money to be made and that can be addictive. I can't tell you how many I've heard tell me, "I'd like to quit stripping but I love the money too much." I'm not saying that's everyone, but it's certainly a significant enough percentage to warrant discussion. The bottom line, if you want to get out of it, you can. But also realize there are people in the industry that LIKE to be in the business and don't want to be "saved."
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #251
254. Is it easy? Nope............... then where is the issue here.
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 11:45 AM by seabeyond
someone wants to help. you admit it isnt easy. so.... we are in agreement
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #254
257. SO WHAT THE HELL ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT????
:evilgrin: Cheers! :toast:
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #244
260. You're the one making the generalizations here
You make grand sweeping statements accusing me and others of saying things that WE DID NOT SAY.

Nowhere did I say only men watch porn.

Nowhere did I say all people in porn are victims.

Nowhere.

However, you did assert that people who don't enjoy porn don't enjoy sex. And I quote: "Contrary to the uber-feminist beliefs, WOMEN LIKE SEX!" With that statement, you not only invoked the straw "uber-feminist" but you effectively equated porn with sex.

Now you pull a disingenous little trick of conflating your straw "uber-feminists" with fundies. "now THERE'S an odd pairing" How very clever of you. Gosh, I've NEVER seen that before! :eyes:


Again, why you are bothering me with these hackneyed memes and cliches, I do not know.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #260
261. i am still looking for ONE uber feminist (whatever the hell that is) who says i am not suppose
to like sex. i have never heard any feminist tell me i am not suppose to like sex. yet supposedly there are a whole lot out there proclaiming this.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #261
263. The only one I know of is made out of straw
She regularly gets dragged out for discussions like this one. I guess she's supposed to scare us into being good little smiling "pro-seXXX feminists", otherwise the boys won't like us anymore.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #263
264. otherwise the boys won't like us anymore.
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 12:43 PM by seabeyond
man i have had enough of this one too. and not for my generation or me, but for my nieces who have hit teenage years. and my sons.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #260
262. self deleted
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 12:36 PM by seabeyond
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #260
265. YOU are the one who said this:
". . . and more artistic images for dudes to masturbate to." I guess that's where I got the message that you think that porn is only for men. :eyes:

People who don't enjoy porn DOES NOT EQUAL people who do not enjoy sex. Please read my OP on this and my reply in which I refute this. The assertion AGAIN is yours.

I'm not part of either the uber-feminists or the fundies trying to limit or even outlaw porn. It just so happens to be that both of these groups are on the same side on this issue. No tricks involved.

*I* am bothering you? You post on a message board, I responded to your post and you re-respond and *I'm* bothering you? What an odd assertion.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #265
270. Nice try. That comment about 'dudes' was sarcasm directed at one particular dude
The one I was talking to, who has a particular posting history around this subject. Not a general comment.

And there you go again with the uber-feminist crap. You must be waiting for your obligatory Good Little Pro-Sex Feminist pat on the head for that. I hope you get it soon. :shrug:
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #270
272. I don't even know what
your last sentence means.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #239
259. Your uber-feminist is made of straw.
You are perpetuating a myth popularized by the porn industry and its many defenders on the Left. They (and you) subscribe to the same Madonna/Whore duality that is entrenched in society as a whole. It's just reversed, like a mirror image. The women who are deemed sexual - in a way that's EXACTLY consistent with the demands of porn - are rewarded while women who reject the porn mandate are labelled 'anti-sex', frigid, prudes, whatever.

I want nothing more than for ALL women (and men) to be able to express and celebrate their sexuality in a safe, healthy, exploitation and manipulation free environment. But I know that's not going to happen anytime soon, given the existence of a multi-billion dollar industry dedicated to coopting and commodifying human sexuality, and then selling it back to us in the packages they determine we should have. While chewing up and spitting out many of the very real human beings who participate in the industry.

BTW, backatcha on the "couldn't care less". You made it a point to let everyone know about your porn use and active sex life. Good for you, but hey, a little TMI ya know?
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #259
266. It's funny because
I see the fundies and the uber-feminists as doing exactly the same thing you accuse those of us who are defending the porn industry -- seeing women as either Madonna/whores. It's projection in it's finest form. Guess what? Women can be whores AND Madonnas and most are those and everything in between.

The porn industry doesn't define what is sexuality and neither do those arguing they have the right to regulate what people do in their own bedrooms. No one is denying your or anyone else's right to reject porn. That is your choice. Just don't go trying to "save" all people in the porn industry, most of whom don't really need your salvation.

I don't understand your contention that celebrating one's sexuality has anything to do with porn. Porn is an enhancement to sex for most people who watch it. It's no different than a sex toy. In fact, for most, it IS a sex toy. If you don't want to watch it, don't watch it.

I occasionally watch porn and like sex. I didn't think that would be such a big revelation. Tmi would have been me sharing details.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #266
326. You are really something.
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 01:26 AM by thecatburgler
YOU are the one equating porn with sex and "celebrating sexuality", not me.

YOU are the one equating one woman who is helping some other women to escape the sex industry with a jihad against the entire industry.

YOU are the one equating porn featuring live human beings engaged in activities that have been reported and documented to cause great pain and suffering to at least some of them with "a sex toy". Nice.

YOU continue to share waaaaay more than I'd like to know about your personal proclivities, after YOU made a snide insinuation in a previous post about not wanting to know about mine, which I never said anything about in the first place.

YOU have clearly not bothered to read what I actually wrote in any of my posts. Talk about projecting. :eyes:


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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #237
245. You say 'Pro Sex Feminist' like it's a very bad thing.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #245
252. It's kinda like "pro-life". It's defining anyone who disagrees with you by default
Porn and the sex industry are NOT sex.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #252
274. What's the difference between porn and any other industry?
Besides sex?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #274
283. How does that question relate to my post? Answer: It doesn't. nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #283
290. Oh, I really think it does.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #290
300. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #300
301. No, I think the problem that you have with the sex industry...
isn't the industry.

:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #301
302. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #302
319. That's one of the two best lines I've seen so far at DU --- !!!
"And I think if it weren't for the industry, you wouldn't be getting any sex which might explain why someone telling women how to get out of it bothers you so."


The other one is . . . .

"Even Republicans who believe Clarence Thomas know he is lying."


Clarence Thomas . . . "lover of hard-core porn."


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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #319
338. And Hitler was a vegetarian.
:shrug:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #338
349. And a pervert . . . What's your point?
I guess we have to give Hitler a few points for being a veggie ---

but the pervert thing .... hmmmmm.....
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
351. ... and here's to women having increased power and options over how they choose to make a living
more options, expanded choices, greater opportunities to "make up their own minds"...

:toast:


hey, ETA, why are PORN threads always the most ENGORGED with posts on DU? :hi:
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
86. Yep... they turn a blind eye to the fact that there are serious...
exploitation issues for both men and women. And then the arguments degenerate to pro- and anti-porn discussions, which couldn't be further from the issue.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
125. We're also about self-determination and civil liberties.
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 12:09 PM by lumberjack_jeff
Simple question:
Like having sex for money, should nudity or lewd acts on camera also be illegal? What if it were only lewd acts in exchange for money?

What about anime? Surely, no one (except perhaps the purchaser) is exploited in animated porn, right? How about romance novels?

Contrary to the stated views of the anti-porn people, the disagreement isn't over whether porn is good or bad. The disagreement is over what constitutes "exploitive" and how to prevent it in a society that values individual freedom.

The anti-porn argument boils down to one simple idea. We know what's best for you.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. Only if you are equate criticism with censorship.
The pro-porn argument (at least on DU) seems to boil down to: Free speech belongs exclusively to us.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #128
132. Really? That's how you see it?
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 01:20 PM by lumberjack_jeff
It wasn't your intent to suggest that people shouldn't produce or consume certain kinds of art/content/literature/photos?

It is your apparent view that those who disagree with those who would, are in fact the censors; their motivation is to restrain you from speaking.

I fully agree with the sentiment that disagreement ≠ censorship. Suffice to say that I contemplate censorship in different terms.

I'm reminded of the discussion I once had with a business owner. His belief was that my advocacy for workers was "exploitative" of him and that it was intended to "restrict his freedom". I guess the truism, you hate in others what you most hate about yourself, has some basis.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #132
134. The porn industry and many of its defenders remind me of that business owner in you post. nt
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
157. Exactly - DU will get strung out on worker's rights and then as soon as the work is porn
it all goes out the fucking window.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
169. Not being blanket anti=porn does not make one an "apologist"
Jeebus.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #169
181. Calling attention to issues in the porn industry does not make one anti-porn. Jeebus. nt
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #181
185. I don't believe I stated that at all, did I?
Some of the posts here (let alone on other threads) do prove my point.

Jeebus.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. I watched
a childhood friend end up stripping to support her habit. The job took a toll on her psych which led to more and harder drugs and prostitution. She was from a well to do family and so intelligent.
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. Then she was in it for the wrong reasons,
obviously.

Stripping isn't the problem. I've been doing it since 1994, and I am not psychologically damaged (that I know of...let me know if you see me in the streets sometimes soon). Of course, I am not addicted to any drug (even alcohol) either.

We need help with raising the quality of our workplace, not putting us out of business. There are a lot of us out here who chose to do this for a living, and love it.

This is not about sex and degredation. It's about psychology and human connection (or the lack thereof). It is soooooo much deeper than most people will ever know.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Absolutely
"We need help with raising the quality of our workplace, not putting us out of business."

I agree 100%.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
78. Yes she was
It started out when she hooked up with the wrong man, got hooked, and went downhill from there. Are there any controls on your business at all, ie standards? I don't know much about it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
173. Good post
I don't know how you, TorchtheWitch, etc., can take some of these threads.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
90. A sister of a high school friend had the same experience...
She was a mess. She was a total hottie, yet she was jealous of every other woman for one reason or another... real or imagined. She went through men faster than she went through a pack of cigarettes... she ended up a junkie, and by age 35, she was hideous, ill, and in a mental hospital with a state conservator because she was deemed a threat to her own safety. All this after being found sleeping in the same bed as a dead man, also a junkie, who had OD'd.

How's that for a glamorous life? But it's her 'right' to dance and perform in porn, and it's the 'right' of others to pay to see her do it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
179. To support her habit? People do ALL sorts of things to support her habit
Breaking into houses, embezzling, etc. Stripping has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with addiction.

And smart people from nice families end up addicts, too.

Stripping is completely irrelevant in your tale.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
9. "We are a group of women who are rooted in God..."
"...planted in His church, and are passionate about seeing women break free from bondage..."


yup, a fundie. 'nuff said.

http://www.iamatreasure.com/about/main.html#how
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. What kind of person are you?
My post wasn't about religion, it was about the sickening state of the porn industry in America, and one person who is helping.

You know what fundies do? They go outside strip clubs and protest and call the girls names and tell them they are going to hell.

Harmony Dust leaves notes on their cars: "If you ever want to leave stripping, we can help."

What's wrong with you?

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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Huffleclaw - The kind of person you ask,
"Is he the solution or the problem?"
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Where's the "fundamentalism" in her statement?
:shrug:
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. You're mixing fundamentalists with Christians
Pharisees like Bush, Robertson and Dobson don't exemplify Christianity. Fact is, Jesus' message was about helping the downtrodden, and this woman is doing the kind of work a Christian ought be doing.

If she really were a Fundie, she'd have sex with them and then take off with their drugs and money.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
74. Because only fundies...
Because only fundies "are passionate about seeing women break free from bondage..."?

:shrug:
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. K & R - and see the following link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=229&topic_id=8340&mesg_id=8340

I caught Hell for it, which I knew I would but this post, combined with yours, here, confirms it. The Porn Industry is NOT glamorous, women don't "love" it and most of them are there because they are entrapped in it - and it is ABUSIVE.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Absolutely
I honestly didn't know all this stuff until recently. I am willing to take the heat for this post. Not like it will be the first time.

Like you, I am not trying to convert DU to being an anti-porn site. But when I read what Jenna Jameson wrote, and what Harmony is doing, it completely changed my view of porn in America.

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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I am sick to death of deleting the slutty message that slide in my e-mails
from disgusting women. Makes me wonder if this all Americans think about these days.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:21 AM
Original message
"disgusting women"
Your slip is showing.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
75. Catching hell for condemning abuse and entrapment...
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 01:52 PM by LanternWaste
Catching hell for condemning abuse and entrapment-- wear that with pride.

:yourock:



Edited for grammar school, no, wait-- high school level spelling error... ;)
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
18. We don't need the government
to intervene in the free choices of women. Or anybody else.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Do you say that about miners? Auto workers???-nt
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. If a woman decides to fuck on camera
the government should have no say in it.

That said, yes, the government has a role in making sure she stays safe. But the initial decision is nobody else's business.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Agreed. Regulate a lot better, don't ban.nt
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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
25. woman helps woman in the porn industry

Holly Randall (hollyrandall@suze.net) emails:

Hey Luke,

I’ve got a story for you… Cytherea, who as you know is pregnant, was about to be evicted from her apartment at 8 months pregnant. My mom heard about this, and in surefire "Super Suze" mode, decided she had to do something about it. In order to send Cytherea back to her mother’s house in Salt Lake City, she’s shelled out $1780 for a Uhaul truck and gas, plus movers. She’s so far spent 2 days of her time organizing Cytherea’s trip as well as getting her stuff packed and her numerous dogs adopted. (On that note, if anyone is interested in minature pinscher/dachshund puppies, they are about a week old and will be up for adoption at Agoura Animal Shelter once they are old enough.) So far, Suze has been promised over $1,000 in contributions from Ginger Lynn, Ron Jeremy, Michael Ninn, Larry Flynt, Teresa Flynt, Patrick Collins and Paul Fishbein. For those who are wondering, yes Suze did drug test Cytherea, and Cytherea did come up clean.

I realize that this story will probably meet with some ridicule and jokes at Cytherea’s expense, but it does raise the interesting question as to why this industry doesn’t "take care of it’s own". In 2005, Cytherea was celebrated at the AVN awards as "Best New Starlet", her performance in scenes coveted by all, but her drug problem took her out, and fast– I think we all know this. A year ago, I might have ridiculed her myself, but since my personal struggle with addiction, I’m less inclined to be so judgemental. Are we such a shame-based industry that our self-esteem is so low that we can hardly help ourselves, much less others? I’m not pretending to have answers to this, but it is a good subject for my next Xbiz article.

....



Cytherea - The Homeless Ho
By LUKE IS BACK | Comments (2)

Holly Randall writes on XPT:

OK I’m going to say one more thing about this subject and then I’d really like to be done with it. As usual, I was too impetuous in my email, and I should’ve left my opinions out of it. When I wrote it, I was weary about including the words that have earned me this criticism, but my parents wanted it out ASAP so that we could garner some support for Cytherea before the whole thing lost it’s momentum. It all came from a conversation I’d had with a friend earlier, about some of the negative reaction I’d already gotten to my mother’s attempts on Cytherea’s behalf– and admittedly, some of it came from me, at the beginning. I think I had bought too much into "tend to your side of the street" aphorism (this is all AA crap– some of you know what I’m talking about) and I initially felt that my mom was enabling Cytherea, rather than helping her. My mom has a tendency to want to "save" people, and I admit sometimes it gets on my nerves. But then I realized that she played a huge part in "saving" me, and if it hadn’t been for her efforts and support, I would not be sober today.

So my friend and I talked about the general low self-esteem this industry harbors, and the way it treats it’s female performers. I realize this is landmine territory I’m stepping into here, because obviously not everyone in porn treats the girls badly, and just because a girl does a scene in which she’s "sexually degraded" doesn’t mean the girl is weak and allows people to walk all over her in real life. I myself am pretty kinky, and though I consider myself a fairly tough chick, I love to be sexually degraded in intimate situations. But try and debase me outside of the bedroom, and I’ll kick your ass. I’m digressing, but I just want to be clear that I’m not issuing a blanket statement here and dismissing all the girls as weak-minded individuals, nor am I suggesting that all pornographers are mysoginists. Those of you who know me know that I don’t like to generalize, and that I truly like a lot of people in the porn biz.

.....
.....

.....

http://www.lukeisback.com/bloglukeisback/?cat=251
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. What does Jenna Jameson say about Suze Randall?
The stuff you posted is self-promotion from Suze Randall. What kind of person does a private favor for someone and then puts it out in the media? You might want to pick a better hero. Try this.

"25 reasons why no one would ever want to be a porn star," from Jenna Jameson's book:

1. Being a pornography performer can be bad for your emotional, mental, and physical health, and you will likely get sick at times as a result of your work.

“And so it began. I woke up at five every morning and got to the studio by seven for makeup. If I weren’t so young, my face would have looked like hell after all the sleep deprivation…. Suze, I soon realized is also a shark. Her specialty is naïve young girls - much like myself… Once she sank her teeth into me, she didn’t let go. She shot me until I was half dead.” (Pg. 105)...


9. The other women that you will have to interact with in the sex industry usually won’t be very nice to you.

“I began to feel like Suze (Randall) was taking advantage of me. My pictures appeared in every sex ad and foreign nudie magazine imaginable. And since I’d signed away the rights, she was raking in all the money. Whenever I asked her for a few chromes for a promo shoot or to make a modeling book, she’d refuse. I’d ask her instead to shoot an extra roll for me at our next session instead, and she’d say she couldn’t. She made her living off of enthusiastic new girls like myself, and I understood that and was grateful to her for making me an international cover girl. But there was a bigger problem – she (Suze Randall) was stringing me along, telling me that each shoot we did just might be a centerfold in Penthouse. However, nothing we did ever appeared there…. So I added Suze to my mental shitlist of people I could not trust and decided to stop working with her.” (Pg. 172)

http://antipornographyactivist.wordpress.com/jenna-jamesons-twenty-five-good-reasons-why-no-one-would-ever-want-to-become-a-porn-star/
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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. It's her daughter Holly


I'm not an expert on the industry, but why did she do an American Idol for Porn

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0773265/




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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. I definitely get it
Suze Randall's daughter goes to the media to tell how wonderful her mom treats the girls. Jenna, having been one of the girls, says the opposite. And she isn't alone.

I don't know what Jenna Jameson is up to. I honestly don't follow her. I just happend to recall that she had something to say about Suze Randall.

Its my understanding that the "25 reasons" were lifted from Jenna's book and arranged under the new title by someone else. I don't think she herself even intended for her book to be anti-pornography. But she's obviously no fan of Suze Randall or the state of the industry today.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
29. If she really wanted to help the women, she would help them form a union.
The women are the product and the industry generates about $50 Billion a year, nearly all of which is stolen by the producers that put up little capital and whom incur no risk.

But no, she wants to simply replace one set of problems with another. Take them out of one exploitive environment to exploit them for her own ends.



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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Right again...
why am I not suprised?

:toast:
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Wait. She is a social worker who started doing this in her free time
...at her own expense.

Sounds to me like your problem is with religion. If so, what could I possibly say to get you to recognize a good cause for what it is?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Maybe there are ex-fundy porn stars who would like to help fundies escape religion.
That would be a "good cause", too, right?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #36
118. Won't deny that is true.
First some background. In my life, I have loved and lived with two women that work(ed) in this industry. One, call her 'J', was very attractive, but seriously damaged and fit many of the assumptions and stereotypes upon which your posts are based, the other, 'T', for clarity's sake, was a world-class winner of the genetic lottery and consciously, some might say cynically, traded on that her entire life. In addition, for a period during my my youth, I worked in, and eventually managed, a few strip clubs in Denver and learned how the business worked then.

If it were not for religion, specifically the Judeo-Christian-Muslim brand(s), and their fundamentally misogynistic precepts, there would be no controversy, no repression of the ultimately natural, and therefore no stigma, over a "sex industry". So, I find it ultimately ironic that it is the pretenders of/to a false "moral superiority", that feel it is now necessary to "save" women from the very thing their perverse beliefs have created. But then, that is the root of all three of the death/dominator religions of the desert, isn't it?

So yes, I do have a problem with these religions. They are the cause of nearly all that is wrong in the world today.


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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #29
57. WTF? They don't need unions - they need OPTIONS

Give me a break. These women resort to porn because it pays several hundred dollars a day. Where else can an uneducated (or even educated for that matter) make that kind of money in a day's time? This shows exactly where we put the value on women - and so they use what they have - they beg with their bodies - fucking and stripping. It is rampant & incessant in this internet age - And, I am fed up to kingdom come with all these people who do not think it has any ramifications in the real world. You are going to tell me that men watching women in these ways doesn't translate to how they view women in the real world. Yeah, right. And, how does it affect their real world relationships with women?

Do you really think this is any woman's dream job? Do you think these women would do this, if the money wasn't there? I am so sick of the defenders of porn on these boards. Would you want your wife or daughter doing it? Can you honestly say this is what you would consider a good life's choice for them? Then, why the hell would it be for other women?

It would break my heart, if my daughter was reduced to this - all her humor, her wit, her love of animals, her kindness to the underdog, her great drama, her deadpan one liners....reduced to being just another body to titilate some guy for a jerkoff.

And, same goes for the men who do porn.

I know the guys here like porn. But, it isn't as innocent and harmless as you would like to convince yourself to believe. Why don't you go bend over & take it, if you think it is such a great way to make a living???????

:rant:
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bighart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. well spoken.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. As one of my favorite radfem bloggers says: no woman has agency in the Patriarchy
Most men don't either, for that matter. This is why one woman's personal choice to be in the sex industry is largely irrelevant to the discussion. The very fact that there IS a sex industry, which is rooted firmly in the idea that certain people (mostly women) are the designated sex class, is the crux of the issue. The porn defenders don't want to touch that one so they try to make it about individual choice or they use distractions, such as pointing out that other occupations are unpleasant.

And yes, there are proven ramifications in the "real world". Young women are increasingly reporting that their partners are expecting them to do things like get brazilian waxes and perform certain sexual acts. Stripping has gone mainstream, with women signing up in droves for pole dancing (!) lessons. Some men who regularly watch porn not only measure the women in their lives by those standards, but also have their own self image adversely impacted by comparing themselves to the male performers. Men I've known personally have openly admitted this. But we're supposed to believe this constant barrage of (remarkably similar) sexual imagery has no effect whatsoever on the people watching it. Bullshit. If images didn't affect people's behavior, companies would not spend millions for 30 seconds of televised advertising on the Super Bowl, would they?

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #57
120. While what you assume is in part true, it ignores the fact that there
are many that have worked in this, not out of coercion or desperation, but because we enjoy it. I know for a fact that these are indeed many people's dream jobs.

Obviously there are major problems within the resultant industry, but they are caused by the illegality, and the people and the practices that are drawn into it by that illegality, not the industry itself.



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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #57
127. I find this unhelpful
People get paid based on three things:
1) the demand for the service
2) the pool of workers (constrained either because the work is difficult, or dangerous, or stressful, or unrewarding or psychologically harmful. Lots of people want to feed puppies. Few want to kill cows.)
3) their skill at the job

The sex trades pay "several hundred dollars a day" because they are on the high-pay side of all of those factors.

If your goal is to eliminate the demand for sex, good luck with that.

I'm with the person who wants a union - it is an industry which desparately needs it.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
138. Requiem for a Dream
in one of the last scenes - the desperate and drug addicted lead female character 'voluntarily' participates with another woman, on stage for an audience of men. Her supplier of drugs was the one running the show and he paid her in heroine or cocain for her performances. She was desperate and miserable. Two women on stage, bum to bum sharing and working a dildo while the pigmen look on and laugh (and most likely would be recording the event so other pigboys could have fun too!). I felt so bad for those poor desperate souls - this to me is what porn is really about. The misery. the hopelessness, the trap so many find themselves in and I am so glad to hear there are people out there like in the OP that are helping. bless their souls.

i really don't watch porn, never been interested but I certainly get the idea of some of the awful crap people are addicted to, but the scene above is what I consider the industry on the whole to be about and the freedom of screechers can shake their fingers all they want but to support this kind of degradation and dehumanisation, there has got to be something really wrong upstairs.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #138
350. "Freedom of screechers?" -- Oh brother
Edited on Wed Nov-14-07 10:32 PM by LostinVA
Um...you do realize that's a fictional movie, right?

Mainstream porn is highly regulated, and certainly different than the scene in that movie.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #57
158. Thanks --
of course the rational voice is always drowned out by the porn/industry apologists, but it's nice to hear it.
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #57
235. ...
"It would break my heart, if my daughter was reduced to this - all her humor, her wit, her love of animals, her kindness to the underdog, her great drama, her deadpan one liners....reduced to being just another body to titilate some guy for a jerkoff."

:applause:

And that's what it boils down to - their only worth is how they look, how sexual they are, how good they are giving a man a boner.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
297. And there we have it.
It's not really about the industry, or worker's protections.

It's about that dirty, dirty sex.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
60. Exactly. nt
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
71. Self delete
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 01:42 PM by LanternWaste
Self delete-- not going to get caught up in crap...
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
258. Tell the Godfather you want a union. Go ahead, I dare you.
Who the hell do you think runs the porn industry? The 700 Club? Wrong answer; they're the industry's major consumers.

In case it has escaped your attention, porn is, has been and always will be run by organized crime. I don't know who's in charge of organized crime today (I hear the Italians were edged out about 15 years ago) but meet the new boss, same as the old boss. And they react to silly things like "protests over conditions" or "demands for union representation" with the same ol' nine millimeter slugs.

Porn and prostitution is just plain slavery, whether you admit it or not - no matter whether you may enjoy it or not. Welcome to reality.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #29
273. Just like Major League Baseball...
:7
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
30. I take offense to the notion that I need to 'escape ' my chosen career.
I am proudly an exotic dancer, have been since 1994. My husband also works in the industry as a dj, going on 17 years now. We also have a friend who was involved in the porn industry for awhile.

It would take all night to explain why I feel the way I do, and I really don't have the patience at the moment. I will try to muster it at a later date.

I am a NON drug addicted person who was NEVER abused as a child. I know many women like me in this industry.

People in this business need support to make the industry more fair to us - unions (ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE right now, you have no IDEA what HELL we would go through here on the east coast and the south to be able to get this done!! It's the middle ages when it comes to this in our industry!) and BENEFITS would be a great place to start.

We are people who CHOSE to do sex industry work. Sure, there are people who are forced into it. I've known many who felt they were forced to go work in a cubicle, also.

I am not repressed, controlled, manipulated, or REpressed. I am my own woman. I have control over my body and my emotions. And I have a house and a family and *gasp* a husband that I adore and don't cheat on! Oh, and NO STDs!! (gee...really?)

I am fucking tired of people trying to 'save' me.

Go save yourself. Keep your nose out of my business.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. I am not a fundie
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 03:19 AM by sampsonblk
I made clear that this doesn't apply to everyone. And I made clear twice that I passed no judgment on what you do for a living.

Fact is, that there are a lot of girls who want to... Wait. You already know the point I was making, and you already know its true. I am talking about the state of the porn industry in America - which is sickening.

And you already know it.

It sounds to me like you've been preached to - probably by a fundie - and didn't like it. Maybe you should complain to them.

Edit: Its late and my post was far too rude. My apology.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
106. Why do you say "girls" here? Is this aimed at saving underage girls
from being coerced?

Or are you referring to adults as girls for some reason? In a thread like this, that's kind of... something.
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lutefisk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #106
242. Similar to the tactic of calling Monica Lewinsky a young "girl"
Just an observation.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #242
247. ya... and she acted like a girl. being used by an old man. n/t
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #247
255. Hmmm...
Are there differing versions of the account of their first meeting?

The way I heard it, she brought him pizza and showed him her thong.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. I understand your point of view.
You are happy with your career choice, and you should never be deprived of the freedom to make that choice.

I also see things from another perspective, having myself worked in strip clubs for many years. As a bartender and cocktail waitress (always fully clothed) I saw both sides of the business: what went on with the dancers backstage, and what the men said and did in and around the club. The way the men spoke about the dancers was extremely degrading most of the time. The vast majority had little respect for these women and saw even the most beautiful and kind girls as worthless prostitutes.

I saw many women pay their way through college and move on to great careers. I also knew many to reach their 30s and see their income drop off dramatically. Needless to say, few had saved or planned for life after stripping.
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. ...and I've seen that also.
However, I feel a lot of these things are also functions of the society at large. I feel the club to be a microcosm of the world, where sometimes the men feel they have the 'freedom' to express very un-pc views. It's very complicated - the men are degrading because they are insecure and have fear about a woman's power, both in and out of the club. It gives them the illusion of control on the surface, whereas in reality they are voluntarily giving up control- but they believe it is on their terms.

One has to see the myriad things going on underneath the brashness on the surface of this business. Those of us who can take what we've learned and apply it are still going somewhere (I'm 34, btw); and those who did not 'get it'; well; it is a sudden and harsh learning experience. But to me, much more honest than plodding along in a job you can never get excited about for 30 years, only to be fired for being too old (anyway!) or because you were outsourced.

I believe it is a proving ground for souls who want to learn some things fast and hard, instead of slow and easy. Impatience to get life lessons out of the way, as it were.

Bet they won't do that again, next time around.

Eh, I'm wayyy off from where I started. Don't mind me; maybe I am crazy. I do think it all comes out in the wash.

And the old school girls don't put up with that misogynistic shit anyway. We're just fewer and far between these days.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
133. Yep. I've never understood how/why so many, particularly women, feel that dancing
in some state of undress is somehow demeaning. To me, being forced to spend most of your limited life doing a job you hate for a meager paycheck so some rich asshole that couldn't care less about you can get even richer is ultimately demeaning. If I could Dance for a living I would jump at the opportunity.


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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #133
210. I'd rather make less money and keep my self-respect
I can't think of many things more sickening than gyrating half-clothed for sleazy men - for ANY amount of money
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
49. As if we give a shit what they think or say
Of course customers will behave like that. Men everywhere behave like that, it's just outside the clubs they either don't say it out loud or only say it outside of our hearing. We don't care what they think or what they say. Gads, you should hear the stuff we often say about them! We got their money, and that's all that matters. If they get their jollies whining about what a dumb whore they think I am, I guarantee I'm a whole lot more jolly when I'M the one leaving with THEIR money.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
131. Exactly why a union is required. The dancers are the only reason anybody goes
into these places and they should be protected from the scum that largely runs the industry.



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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
39. AMEN SISTER!
Ditto everything you said (except the married part... I'm working on that one ;)).

I'm so damn weary of this ridiculous stereotyping BS.

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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. ....
:hug:

(speaking of all this, did you see that last Las Vegas on NBC? HILARIOUS!! As if we could ever really strike and make it stick...husband and I were about to fall off the couch laughing. Hope you are well...)
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
61. I saw that and couldn't believe how ridiculous it was.
I've got friends who are dancers and we called each other up to laugh out loud about it. :rofl:

My hubby loves the show and I loathe it. :shrug:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
50. Good for you!
No really, I mean it! Good for you! I've known strippers in my life, none were drug addicts. Most were working their was through college. One was a gold digger (she was very proud of that). People get so freaked out when it comes to sex. I don't mind porn. Sometimes I even like it and I am a woman. I like erotic novels even more.

I loved your last 2 sentences.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #50
63. I personally see nothing wrong with gold diggers.
As long as adults are okay with whatever form their relationships take, I say more power to 'em.

there's little enough happiness in this world. I like to encourage it!
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. She wasn't so honest with the guys
She just wasn't a good person over all, regardless of her job.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
51. Good post...
and kudos to you for being a strong, independant woman. :applause:

Sid
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
77. THANK YOU!!!
I respect your chosen profession and the women who work in it. My conscience is clear on this.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Look behind the curtain, then decide.
More from Jenna's book:

6. The porn industry and the people in it do not treat women with decency, fairness and respect.

“Most girls get their first (porn) experience in gonzo films - in which they’re taken to a crappy studio apartment in Mission Hills and penetrated in every hole possible by some abusive asshole who thinks her name is Bitch. And these girls, some of whom have the potential to become major stars in the industry, go home afterward and pledge never to do it again because it was such a terrible experience.” (Pg. 132)

“In a worst-case scenario, a gonzo director will take a girl to a hotel room and have their friends shoot a cheap scene in which she is humiliated in every orifice possible. She walks home with three thousand dollars, bowed legs, and a terrible impression of the industry. It’ll be her first and last movie, and she’ll regret it – to her dying day.” (Pg. 325)

“In other scenarios, she’ll work for two weeks until she’s only getting paid seven hundred dollars a scene and then, finally, no one wants to use her anymore. So she’ll agree to do double penetration or drink the sperm of twelve guys just to stay working.” (Pg. 325)

“It was the most irritating shoot of my life. When I spread for him, he joked about there being an echo in the room. When I went into a doggie position, he commented on needing a fish-eye lens for my ass. All evening, he kept making comments that one shouldn’t make around a woman, especially if one wants her to feel sexy.” (Pgs. 359-360)

“For my first Wicked movies, I kept my mouth shut and absorbed everything that was going on. I looked at how the other girls were being treated (basically like Tinkertoys) and what type of people got to call the shots (the male directors). I was determined not to just be a fuck toy but also retain as much power as possible off camera.” (Pg. 368)

“When they were finally ready to shoot, J.B. came into the makeup room and ordered: ‘Get your whore ass on set and do what you do best.’ He had just used the wrong word. I ran after him in a Tasmanian Devil frenzy. The crew had to pull us apart. It was late and my nerves were frayed, but nonetheless J.B. was out of line. And I was right: they were wasting time arguing about the lighting. When he left, I collapsed in my makeup chair and started crying.” (Pgs. 453-454)

7. The industry is full of strange and scary people, who are happy to take advantage of you – like “suitcase pimps”.

Suitcase pimps “date industry girls, become their managers, take all their money, and often leave them broke, jobless, prematurely aged wrecks.” (Pg. 162)

Kylie’s suitcase pimp “knelt in front of her and reached deep inside her. He had a very strange expression on his face, as if he actually enjoyed the responsibility. When he fished it (the sponge) out between his bloody fingers, he actually sniffed it. I had to get out of there. I never wanted to do another movie again.” (Pg. 163)

“There are a lot of scumbags in the industry. They’ll tell girls they need to ‘test them out’ first to see if they give a good blow job.” (Pg. 326)
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. Ah, Jenna Jameson.
There's a font of wisdom.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. I was relying on her experiences
I don't need wisdom from an entertainer.

Jenna has seen it all, and her experiences mirror those of Harmony Dust, Crissy Moran, Jersey Jaxsin, Hailey Page and others.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
105. But... lildreamer... maybe you just haven't found JAYSUS yet!
If you had, I'm sure you'd see that what you're doing is just evil and wrong... so you couldn't possibly be doing that of your own free will!

She's just tryin ta help you see the light!
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
139. Sex Trade Workers Industrial Union 690
All workers employed as dancers and models, telephone sex workers, actors and other workers who use sexuality as the primary tool of their trade (excluding all agents of the boss class able to hire or fire, or possessing equivalent coercive or punitive power).

http://www.iww.org/unions/dept600/iu690/
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
174. I'm so glad you posted this
I know how irritated some of the posts in threads like me make ME feel... I can't imagine what you feel.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
184. You don't want to be "saved" but why do you begrudge other women that opportunity?
Edited on Sun Nov-11-07 07:16 PM by thecatburgler
Okay, obviously you are in an occupation that you choose to be in and don't appear to be suffering any harm from it. Yet you acknowledge that there are women in your industry who are not as fortunate as you. In some of your posts on this thread, you've shown a great deal of disdain for them. The Glamour article describes women breaking down in tears when Harmony and her counterparts bring them gifts and tell them they can get out of stripping if they want. Sure, she's religious, which is not my thing at all but I respect what she's doing. I don't get the sense you're doing much to help those women in your industry whom you dismiss as 'not having their heads screwed' on or whatever it was you said get out of it. I could be wrong, and I'm not saying you're obligated to do anything to help them. So by all means, tell Harmony Dust to go jump in a lake if she approaches you, but try to understand that everything isn't all about you.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #184
299. I've heard you can be saved from the gay too. nt.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #299
324. Explain to me how stripping is an innate sexual orientation
Because I was under the impression that it's an occupation. I didn't know those things were coded on our DNA but maybe you have some information I wasn't aware of. :shrug:
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #324
327. I've heard you can be rescued from the satanist clutch of feminism as well.
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 07:38 AM by Warren Stupidity
You might want to take a good look at who you are in bed with here.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #327
328. Feminism is an innate orientation too?
BTW I addressed that tired ass trope several posts ago. This feminist is not falling for it, dude.

The Religious Right has coopted patriotism, family values, freedom, populism, compassion and numerous other cherished ideals, along with feminism. Yet I don't see progressives who embrace the true meaning of those ideals being told to shut up by other progressives, with the exception of feminists when it comes to this issue.

NOT very progressive of you, dude.

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #328
339. No. But that would be the wrong argument in this case.
Like making a living as a sex worker, feminism would be a choice. I am so glad we agree about that. However your new friends can save you from both the gay and the evil clutches of feminism and the evil porn-slavers. The religious right has not coopted feminism, some feminists have wandered off into morality crusades, where, shockingly, they find themselves in with a rather non-progressive, anti-feminist, anti-humanist bunch of theocratic reactionaries.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #339
340. The free-market libertarians haven't necessarily coopted you
But you are wandering into some shockingly non-progessive, anti-humanist, callously Social Darwinist territory when you act like every sex worker makes the "choice" to do it in a situation-neutral context.

I suppose next you'll be telling me that the vast majority of lower-income young people who enlist in the military do so because, out of a myriad of educational and economic options available, they "choose" to be cannon fodder. I mean, how dare anyone try to save them from their freely made "choices" with those namby-pamby do-gooder recruiter opt-out forms!

Oh, I'm sure your new friends in the porn lobby will regale you with their neato small-government theories on why they should be able to regulate themselves rather than dealing with all those pesky laws about age of consent and STD prevention. Because who can ya trust more than Big Business when it comes to keeping the public safe! :sarcasm:





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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #339
341. i always enjoy a man telling me i must accept porn, now to be a true feminist
does my heart good for the men to tell me who i am suppose to be.

generally the men say i have to like it to be sexual, or cause my man HAS to have it. now it is merely to be a feminist.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #341
343. You don't have to accept porn, I never said you did.
Feel free to not buy it, not watch it, keep away from it, not be employed by the evil porn-slavers. I do. But I also have no interest in promoting morality crusades and oppose those who do. It isn't their religion that bothers me with the theocrats, it's their insistence on imposing their narrow moiralistic views on everyone else that is the problem.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #343
345. i wasnt reading a morality crusade with the op. i didnt get that it was
a morality crusade at all. if females need help to get out of it and are wanting help out of it, and someone is willing to help them out, how does that become a morality crusade. seems humane to me. i dont think this is about the sinner and freeing sinner of her sin. from what i have gathered an learned, there are some real abuses and ugliness going on and some people need help

read post #267. sounds like some of the women can use help
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
45. "Where is our government???"
According to the latest republican scandal, giving head to some guy down at the porn shop. :shrug:
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Commander AWOL Bush has assigned Sen. David Vitter (R) to get to the bottom of this
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Ha!
:spray:
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coffee_strong Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #46
48.  some womens
self estemm or feeling of importance comes from guys drooling over them. They in turn interpret that to mean that the guy respects them as a person. Most guys will hoo and haw over a beautiful naked woman, but that's the extent of it, you will never hear them speaking highly of said female(unless it has to do with sex talk) and you won't find him bringing her home to ''momma''.

There will always be the exception to the rule,but the majority of men see pornstars the same way. They are there for one reason and one reason only.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
52. Not For Sale
The European Women's Lobby has a film online with interviews with former sex workers:
http://www.womenlobby.org/site/video_en.asp
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Thanks-nt
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SyntaxError Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
56. Is this just an issue in the US, or is it in other countries too?
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 11:23 AM by SyntaxError
I ask because it seems to focus only on the US, so I'm curious if other nations do not have these problems... Then again, perhaps we just hide our "dirty little secrets" more...
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. I honestly don't know.
I do know a lot of girls come here from other countries to make money in porn.
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SyntaxError Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. Kind of funny though, aye?
Considering the US seems to be far more sexually repressed than Europe, and perhaps Canada...
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Certainly
Like everything else here, when something takes off, so much money becomes involved that it changes everything.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #58
209. You know, honestly, your position would be a lot stronger if you stopped saying "girls"
I'm not going to be on your side in any case, but I thought you might like to know that adult women, in general, don't care to be called "girls." Especially by someone who claims to be helping us in some way.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
65. Now they can all gut chickens at Crider for seven bucks an hour. PRAISE!
That, or work at WalMart. Or Burger King? Whatever -- it's not like they don't have options.


O8)

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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
66. Here's one for everyone to watch
Porn Star "Sasha Gray" just got into the business last spring, as soon as she turned 18. It was her idea. No one forced her or even recruited her. She researched the industry, then called an agent and got herself hired.

Here's an article about her from Luke Ford (top porn reporter): http://www.lukeisback.com/stars/stars/sasha_grey.htm

Sasha Gray and her place in porn (YouTube):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrYcjaKWS1I

We'll see how it works out for her.


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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
72. I imagine the porn industry is one of the last venues...
I imagine the porn industry is one of the last remaining venues in which misogyny is directly translated into a profit.

Yet, as long as the profit margin remains substantial, it will be defended, justified and purchased-- for this is America, after all.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
80. Sounds like one of those cures for homosexuality things.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Except that it's heterosexuality.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 03:29 PM by Lilith Velkor
Just remember that anyone who likes penii is a BAD PERSON.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Let's be clear.
Anybody who doesn't have heterosexual sex on their marriage bed, in the missionary position, in the dark, for procreational purposes only is a BAD PERSON.

Unless, of course, they're soliciting a cop in a public restroom or having sex with underage pages.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. More like counseling and therapy. She is a professional counselor, ya know.-nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Yes, and Jesus is her mentor.
:rofl:
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Oh yeah, that's definitely a sign of evil-nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. No.
Her connection to homophobic hate groups like Harvest USA are a sign of evil.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #92
97. Let me get this straight
This woman is spending her time offering solutions to people in desperate situations, but she's bad because of an association with a group you don't like?

That has to be some of the worst logic (or lack thereof) that I have come across at DU.

Some of us, including myself, have lambasted 'christian' groups who preach hell and damnation but never pitch in and help. They beat women over the head about abortion but never step in to help find an alternative, and they don't care a damn about the child after its born. They never help the poor. They never help anyone. All they do is yell hatred and pass the plate.

But here we have a woman who is doing exactly (and only) what she claims to believe in. And that's still not good enough for you? What the heck do you want?
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. So are the "Christian soldiers"
who spread their message of Christ's love at abortion clinics.

SHE believes their situations are desperate. SHE thinks she has to "save" these women from a life of degradation.

These women are not being forced to do what they do. They made choices. For some of them it turned out to be a bad choice. When that realization dawns, they can make another one.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #99
107. What about homes for victims of spousal abuse? Are they evil too?
She is going out and offering help to those who ask for it and want it. There is a huge difference. "If you ever want to leave stripping, we can help." No pressure, no contempt, no damnation, no bible verses. This isn't Operation Rescue here.

This offer is for people who want to leave stripping but can't find a way to make ends meet otherwise, or who feel like they have nothing else to offer the world, or who feel worthless. She is saying "if you feel stuck with no way out, call me. I will help you find a way."

You are so busy trying to defend pornography, which isn't the issue. The issue is that so many women get stuck in this industry, they are treated so bad, but many feel stuck and can't get out. Not all. But a lot.

If this is your logic, I wonder how you feel about homes for battered women. Same situation. They got into something that turned out awful. Doesn't mean all marriages are bad, or that all men are bad, or that the women themselves are bad. There are loads of groups out there offering them help. Many are christian. Are they all evil too? Out for themselves?
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #107
110. 1. I don't see those as
even remotely equivalent.

2. If those homes are preying on women in vulnerable situations to bring them to a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" then I think that is very uncool.

3. I never used the term "evil".
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. They are identical
Harmony Dust is running an outreach program for women who desperately need help. She hasn't forced anyone to do anything. The ones who don't feel they need help won't get harassed or anything even close to that. So what's the problem?

I think you are hostile to religion, not hostile to outreach. Any mention of God = preying on people. Is that about right?
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #113
121. Uh no.
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 10:23 AM by Lurking Dem
I have worked and still have many friends in the industry and I think the views of porn that often pop up here have very little basis in reality.

On edit: I realized my response was bit pithy.

I see many of these views as being based on and propagated by people of fundamentalist religious persuasion (of whatever flavor) to the point that they have infected (yes, infected) societal views.

I think a much more worthy "rescue" would be hosting educational seminars in things like, How to Afford College, Elements of Script Writing, or How to Go From Talent to Production in Adult Films.

This woman is trying to "save" others she sees as degraded and trapped by their sin. How she makes herself available, how she advertises her services, and how she counsels them is probably more important than that she is doing it at all.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #121
201. if a woman does not like porn, thinks it is degrading to females she MUST
be of fundamental persuasion OR doesnt like sex.

as much as you dont like a stereotype of one sort, i am totally pissed off at the male telling me my view of porn is based on a fundamentalist view. screw that shit.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #201
236. Reading comprehension is your friend.
many of these views

And the discussion was about this thread.

And I'm a female.

Screw that.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #236
238. many women
are not into porn. and many of those women are not fundamentalists, nor are they frigid. yet consistently, if we do not embrace porn, allowing us our own choices, we are told we are fundamentalist, or frigid. a good way of once again degrading and shutting us up.

so screw that right back atcha.

enjoy your porn. play in it, have fun in it... yada yada. and no judgment on my part. i dont care. none of my business. but for me to not want it everywhere i turn doesnt allow me the same freedom of choice. plus we get your judgment on my sexuality.

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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #238
249. I did not once
judge you on your sexuality.

I tried to explain how I felt about the historical Puritan foundations of this country and how I see it affecting how we perceive things today.

I have a real problem when people (like the woman in the article) seem to view things they don't agree with through the filtered lens of their religion.

I have a HUGE problem with people making the assumption that WOMEN (NOT "girls", NOT "children") are somehow incapable of making valid choices for themselves.

As for "no judgment" on your part, that is laughable.

And I think if anyone should feel "degraded" by porn, it should be men. Here are guys on the screen with enormous appendages, shooting off gallons of jism at the snap of some director's fingers several times a film and they're not going to feel inadequate watching that?

I simply do not understand someone feeling degraded by the very existence of porn or the people who enjoy it. And I do not appreciate their attempts to project their feelings of repulsion or degradation onto the people in the industry or those who seek out its entertainment.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #249
253. anyone should feel "degraded" by porn, it should be men
this... i could not agree with you more.

fox news pulls every story on females and sex they can. at the intro of said article, they have a well used clip of a female in heals humping a pole. that is not used to be respectful to women. that is used and fox employees for the mere entertainment of their macho manly man males with their fat asses in their chairs, guzzlin beer out of pure entertainment at the females expense. none of these stories are to bring a woman up. all of them are to denigrate the female. with the obvious ploy of trying to "help" the woman

you may not see thru out society how it denigrates female. i can give you example after example

i tend to see it as a neutral issue, porn. i see there is a higher and lower vibration in porn. a pure and a manipulative. a white and a black. depending how a person choses to use it.

i played with it in my late teens, early twenties. i was not opposed to it out of religious reasons or frigidity. i had the feeling of degradation with it, not in and of itself. i didnt look into the harsh porn of rape, gang rapes and the ones that really are into the degradation. i am talking simple porn

it is the time i have seen others experiences and use of it that has drawn me to my conclusions today.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #253
320. We do need to look more at the men who think they have a relationship with a video ---
or with a photograph in a magazine ---

AND, what you're identifying here is reality, of course ---

"...didnt look into the harsh porn of rape, gang rapes and the ones that really are into the degradation. i am talking simple porn..."

but something some here are trying very hard to deny.




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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #97
112. Pretty much.
I don't think porn actresses are in desperate situations any more than homosexuals need to be cured.

I don't think she's trying to help people, I think she's trying to "save their souls" which is what gets used to pave the road to hell.

And I really don't think she's worried about women, I think she's just worried about sex, like the people she associates with. Gays are evil, porn is evil, pre-marital sex is every, Spongebob is evil, blah, blah, blah.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #112
135. and I really don't think your reading comprehension is all that great.
why do you have such a problem with women who want out of the industry? afraid the cast of characters may diminish and ruin some of your freedom of choice and speech fun? you are mocking the help offered here as cloaked in some sinister fundie stuff that lays only in your own imagination.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #135
269. My reading comprehension isn't all that great?
Because I never said I have a problem with women who want out of the industry.

I've got a problem with prudes and bigots.

"you are mocking the help offered here as cloaked in some sinister fundie stuff that lays only in your own imagination."

It's not particularly cloaked. She links various hate groups right there on her site.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #89
141. Secular alternatives to her program are desperately needed. nt
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #141
182. Sex Industry Survivors is a secular program helping women who want to leave the sex industry
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
83. Jesusism + Feminism = Harmony Star Dust


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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
96. nobody forced them to enter the industry
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 05:45 PM by iamthebandfanman
they wanted the money and they knew what that entailed.

i think ud find just as many if not more girls who DONT want to leave the industry(because they like the money associated with it).

just remember, they made a DECISION to do what they do...

why should the government tell them what to do?

im just confused about this subject... why cant they leave whenever they want?
are you saying its addictions to drugs?
cause once again that was their decision to start taking the drugs....

sorry but im a fan of personal responsibility...
if they want out of porn , they should leave.
if they want help with drug abuse, they should go get it.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. You're not on board with the infantilization.
It's all about seeing them as helpless victims.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. You are where I was recently
Those are the things I said a very very very short time ago. I had no idea what went on behind the scenes. That's what changed my mind. If porn is to be a legitimate industry in the USA, then its going to have to be regulated tightly. Girls can't buy cigarettes at 18, and they can't drink booze either. The government recognizes that stuff is harmful. Someone needs to take a look at how the porn industry operates. This is far far far worse than a beer and a couple of puffs.

I am not going to try to convince you about how bad it is. I will just leave leave you with this:

Porn Star Sasha Grey on Tyra Banks Show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxUq_zzvAaA
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. Arguing for tighter regulations is different than arguing that women are victims.
If you're saying the very young porn stars are being mistreated, that's one thing.

But lots of this stuff smacks of treating ALL women in the industry like they're helpless little girls who are ignorant victims and that's just BS.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #102
111. Absolutely
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 07:42 PM by sampsonblk
I am talking about the mistreatment of the young "stars," and the rampant drug use, and the STDs, and the overall abuse of many of the women, etc. All that stuff.

Here's a good example for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haley_Paige
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. oh ive heard storys
from current and retired porn stars...

but u know the current ones ive heard from say regardless of the horrible stuff they may go through, they want to keep their job because...drum roll.. they like the money!!
I once watched a show about a young woman working in the industry who said ud go to some jobs and thered be no rules for the conduct of the guys(theyd hit, smack, choke, ETC) and while she admitted she didnt like that sorta thing she said she would CONTINUE TO DO IT so long as they PAYED ENOUGH!

im sorry, but they are making a personal decision to get into an industry that is shadey.
if they want out, they can leave.
nobody makes them stay.
they do it on their own accord.
sorry.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #103
240. A shady industry that many of them entered at a very young age and under extreme manipulation
Many porn actors report being turned onto drugs before, or shortly after, they get in the industry. Plus, how easy do you suppose it would be to switch careers with little to no education and "porn star" on your resume? You may not find it within yourself to have compassion for someone who finds herself in an occupation where people beat and choke her, but I do.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #96
218. If it was a "decision" --- we'd see more men making that decision ---
and maybe even see a male going thru a meat grinder naked in a photo layout in HUSTLER . . . ???


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #218
256. Have you somehow remained unaware of the huge market for gay porn?
:wtf:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #256
314. Are you saying gay porn is violent and exploitative --- ???
Because that's what I'm saying about typical female-exploitive porn ---

Additionally, are you considering what economic conditions may push gay males into the business?

Or that they may also be being threatened or abused?

The very basis of the claim that "they are doing voluntarily" or that they are "consenting adults" is not provable -- whether we are talking about females/males --- hetereosexual or homosexual.

You have to deal with the organized nature of pornography ---
Comcast, alone, is making more than $500 million each year on internet porn.

They need fresh meat and performances ---




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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #314
329. You said IF it was a decision we'd see more men making it.
My point was that many men DO make that decision.



I don't know what else in your rant there was directed at my point...

I'm surprised that people so concerned about the abuse in porn could be so unaware of how it affects at least half of the performers.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #329
348. You're making an unlikely presumption . . .
that these are free decisions because gay males are making them --

The first reality is that this is a class of people who are still being discriminated against --
and not wholly free in our society.

In an industry which is "violent and exploitive" . . . there is no way to guarantee that anyone is consenting freely and isn't being threatened or abused.

Given our economic conditions in America, porn may simply be as poor a choice as the military?

Still, of course, the majority of those victimized and exploited in the porn industry are females.


QUOTE . . .
Are you saying gay porn is violent and exploitative --- ???
Because that's what I'm saying about typical female-exploitive porn ---

Additionally, are you considering what economic conditions may push gay males into the business?

Or that they may also be being threatened or abused?

The very basis of the claim that "they are doing voluntarily" or that they are "consenting adults" is not provable -- whether we are talking about females/males --- hetereosexual or homosexual.

You have to deal with the organized nature of pornography ---
Comcast, alone, is making more than $500 million each year on internet porn.

They need fresh meat and performances ---
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
101. So here's a question: Do they "help" strippers who may be Jewish or Atheists?
I quote, from the top of the website:

We are a group of women who are rooted in God, planted in His church, and are
passionate about seeing women break free from bondage. Our vision is to reach
women who are currently working in the sex industry of Los Angeles, and to let
them know there is a God who loves them beyond measure.
Our goal is to
encourage them through prayer, testimony, and the word of God, in order to help
them realize how valuable they are. Our desire is that these women would
experience the breaking of chains and healing of wounds through a personal
relationship with Jesus Christ.


Because to me, this sounds like a standard Religious Conversion ploy dressed up in Charity Work.

Frankly, if women involved in stripping are as vulnerable as the site claims, sounds to me like Ms. Dust is preying upon people at a vulnerable point in their lives with the express desire of "claiming more souls for Christ".

Which is certainly her right- as it is the right of some 12 steppers and others I've encountered over the years playing the same game- but I'm not going to call that a necessarily "noble" pursuit. Would the folks so in favor of this organization feel the same way if they were proselytizing Planned Parenthood employees in the exact same manner? :shrug:
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. I can't imagine why not
I will email them and ask. Good point.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #109
122. Please get back to us if you receive a response. nt
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Tektonik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #101
161. I wonder if they help lesbians
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sss1977 Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
104. Oh please...
"The Dem party, in my opinion, should be all about fighting this kind of stuff."

I completely disagree. Dems should stay the hell away from legislating sex. If an ex-pornstar regrets what she did and hopes to help others like her, great, good for her. But not everyone regrets being a pornstar. If you want to help clean up the adult industry, support unions, not legislation.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. If this stuff went on in fast food, you'd be screaming for new laws-nt
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 07:25 PM by sampsonblk
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #108
143. Absolutely. These people constantly compare other occupations to sex work
But you'll never see any of them suggesting that WalMart employees should stop complaining or that no one else should speak out on their behalf because "they CHOSE to work there!"
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #143
159. Right? I won't get flamed to hell for working against the exploitation of WalMart employees - if I
were successful at it, I would be praised here.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #108
175. It does
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #104
315. You think that pornography is "sex" . . . ???
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
126. Here's What They Should Do: Have One of Them Distract the Guards.
Then the others can tie their clothes together, make a long rope, and snag it on the barbed wire at the top of the wall. Then it's a simple matter of climbing up the rope, and climbing out of the compound where they keep all the porn actresses against their will! I REALLY think this could work!
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. But what of the mind control rays? The robot overlords? n/t
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #126
137. and can I add: if necessary or convenient...
clunk one of the guard on the head with a flashlight, they will fall to floor unconscious for about 3 minutes of screentime. Just enough time for one of the porn actresses to get into the guard's clothes and use their keys to let the others out. (having seen a lot of television, I know that this works everytime)
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Tektonik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
136. her being fundie=not reading whatever garbage is on that site
:puke:
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usaftmo Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
140. Men also need help escaping from the porn industry.
1) Very few men can be in this line of work; being ready to perform surrounded by strangers and multiple cameras and know you're being filmed can certainly make a guy nervous.

2) Men get paid a small fraction of what women earn.

3) Reaching that "special moment" when the director demands it is certainly difficult.

4) In-between shots the man must do whatever is necessary for part of his anatomy to remain ready.

5) If a man is used too frequently the "money shot" is non-existent.

Overall working in the porn industry at first seems to be a dream come true for guys, but the conditions are extremely difficult, and getting out is not easy...and I haven't even covered the drugs/STD issues.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
142. For those concerned about the religious aspects of Harmony's program:
Where have YOU been?

Out of a misguided fear of offending the porn lobby and being labelled "anti-free speech", progressives have ceded this issue to the Religious Right. This is NOT about whether or not there should be porn. This IS about acknowledging that there is a tremendous amount of abuse, exploitation, and downright enslavement going on in the global sex industry as it currently is. The people who wish to escape it find only religious groups there to help them. Meanwhile, liberals who supposedly care about the oppressed and downtrodden instantaneously become callous libertarians where this issue is concerned, blithely dismissing it as "a personal choice" and seeming to care much more about the rights and comfort of the people profiting from and consuming the products of the sex industry than of anyone who is harmed by it.

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #142
146. So you'd be okay with the exact same proseltyzing done to, say, Planned Parenthood employees?
Perhaps you should ask Ms. Harmony Dust if she thinks they need "saving", too.

Anyway, my callous libertarianism aside, Harmony Dust and everyone else involved is acting within their rights. Including the strippers in this thread who say "fuck you- I don't need Saving, TYVM."
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #146
148. You answered your own question. The prosletyzers would be acting within their rights. nt
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #142
147. You said it much better than I did-nt
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #142
183. Exactly! Thank you for your eloquence. :-) nt
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #183
200. You're very welcome. Thank you as well, for all your helpful links.
It's sad beyond words to realize that believing it's wrong to dehumanize and degrade people for entertainment makes me a minority in a progressive community. Even if you stress that you don't want to ban porn or criminalize people who make and use it, you are still demonized by people who can't handle the truth being pointed out to them.
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #200
228. Sad beyond words indeed. :-(
I know exactly how you feel, unfortunately. I've been experiencing the same unpleasant and disturbing demonization for years. Pointing out the truth about sexual exploitation and abuse in porn and the sex industry makes it crystal clear who really cares and who is in deep denial of reality. It's very sobering to see how many people who say they care about the humanity of others quickly check out on this issue and turn on you.
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
150. Hey sampsonblk and thecatburglar! :-) Great work you are doing here.
I am thrilled to see you and other compassionate people here speaking out against the horrific exploitation going on in the almost completely unregulated $10 billion dollar a year U.S. porn industry.

Here are some helpful references for you and anyone else who is interested in further examination of this issue:

From "Pornography Is A Left Issue" by Gail Dines and Robert Jensen:

"No one on the left defends capitalist media -- or any other capitalist enterprise -- by pointing out workers consented to do their jobs. The people who produce media content, or any other product, consent to work in such enterprises, under varying constraints and opportunities. So what? The critique is not of the workers, but of the owners and structure."
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9272

From "KINK.COM in SAN FRANCISCO: Women and Gay Men's Abu Ghraib", by Melissa Farley:

The existence of state-sponsored torture is decried by social critics on the Left, yet the identical treatment of women in prostitution is ignored by those same analysts. Many view torture by the United States of prisoners at Abu Ghraib with shock and horror, yet at the same time consider the identical acts perpetrated (and photographed) against prostituted women to be sexual entertainment. Condemning the Bush administration’s tolerance for torture in the war on terror, one journalist noted the “gleeful sadism” of guards at Abu Ghraib. Yet political pundits maintain silence regarding the same gleeful sadism of men toward women and gay men like that seen at (porn site) kink.com.
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/blog/2007/02/kinkcom_in_san_francisco_women.html#more

From "The Porn Debate: Wrapping Profit in the Flag", by Stan Goff:

"Pornography and prostitution 'in the material world' are overwhelmingly not 'choices.' They are vast, exploitative, patriarchal-capitalist industries, largely violent, very lucrative, controlled by women-hating men, and destructive of the women (and children) who are victimized by them. Most of the women who are prostituted (including those who are used to produce pornography) are poor, disproportionately from oppressed groups, frequently drug-addicted, the vast majority showing clear signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, and wanting out. The majority suffered from sexual abuse as children, and many were first 'turned out' as minors. Many new prostitutes are 'broken in' through gang rape, and constantly abused by pimps.

These claims are based on extensive research, not the anecdotal interviews with industry spokespersons suggested to Chyng Sun by Nina Hartley. The anthology, Not For Sale “ Feminist Resisting Prostitution and Pornography, edited by Christine Stark and Rebecca Whisnant, cites this research extensively, for anyone who is interested in actually studying this predatory industry." http://www.feralscholar.org/blog/index.php?p=2

Stop Porn Culture Group MySpace Site (Formerly National Feminist Anti-Pornography Movement)
Does anti-porn slide show trainings and other activism. Includes videos of 2007 Wheelock anti-porn conference in Boston.
http://www.myspace.com/stoppornculture

Feminist Fred: (Also home of Pornsick Pat. ;-))
http://www.feministfred.com/

My Anti-Porn Blogger MySpace Site:
http://www.myspace.com/antipornblogger

My Anti-Pornography YouTube Channel: with over 200 Anti-Porn and Anti-Sexual Exploitation Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/AntiPornographyBlog

My Anti-Pornography Activist Blog:
http://antipornographyactivist.blogspot.com/

Enjoy! And to sampsonblk, thecatburglar, and others who are speaking up against the harms of pornography here and elsewhere, please keep up your vitally important work. Thanks! :-)
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #150
154. Thank you for this post
(bookmarking the thread for this resource)
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #150
160. That's one hell of a first post --
welcome to DU.

There is a Feminists forum in the DU Groups and a Women's Rights forum in the Topics boards.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #150
164. also bookmarking
thank you, and a wonderful first post. :hug:
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #150
168. Thank you! Great first post!-nt
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #168
186. You're very welcome sampsonblk, lwfern, Katherine, and musette. Glad to help out. :-)
And thank YOU for your kind welcome. :-)
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #150
178. Oh brother
Glass.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
152. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
155. Thanks for posting - and to the DU Libertarian brigade: do you support worker exploitation in other
industries, or is exploitation in pornography okay because it's just some worthless women and you like to look at it so it must be okay?
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #155
163. Who in this thread
said that any worker exploitation was okay?
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #163
165. There is strong support for pornography as a first amendment protected
form of expression on DU - there always has been.

So when a DUer posts about worker exploitation in the sex industry, why do droves of other DUers come pouring in to defend the industry when in a different thread about a different industry this kind of abuse would never be tolerated?
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #165
167. Many reasons.
The post was not about de facto exploitation. It was about a Born Again Christian trying to "save" women from what she SAW as de facto exploitation.

Worker exploitation is not confined to the adult film industry.

There are existent laws against worker exploitation and those were talked about here as well as the need for union organization and other things that would benefit sex workers, so the whole "Duers supporting exploitation of 'worthless women'" argument is a total canard.

The idea that abuse is tolerated in this industry is bullshit. People in the industry have told you it is bullshit.

Yet you (and others) persist.

We have pornography linked to misogyny, child pornography, victimization, and assumptions that any woman involved in the industry is damaged in some way and needs to be fixed. Even women producers of porn were described as being "prostituted" like they have no free will, no decision making capability, and are merely infants needing someone wiser to put them on the path of righteousness.

Fuck that.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #167
170. My OP was about exploitation & abuse of women in the porn/exotic dance industry
AS far as I am concerned, the other issues are excuses for inaction.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #165
219. I think we have to awaken DU to a more just expression which is less exploitive of females ----
It's opinion that must be changed ---
and it's not a topic which gets enough attention ---

we have to keep at this discussion --- keep at the debate ---


And --- I think we have to understand as well not only what it being looked at ---
but the LOOKER as well.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #163
177. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #155
166. It's one thing to say that we oppose the exploitation of construction workers
... and entirely another to propose that we all stop living in houses as a realistic solution.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #166
172. I am for ending the abuses and the abusive situations...
and the rampant drug use, and the rampant STDs and the destroyed lives and the exploitation of young girls, and the depiction of young-looking girls as school children.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #172
187. Rampant STDs and drug use?
Legitimate porn producers require very regular STD testing. The percentage of those in porn with STDs is probably lower than the general population. According to Ron Jeremy's book, he's seen more drugs on regular film sets than porn sets. I believe it, having known people in the film industry.

I'd love to see the stats you have to back up your accusation of rampant drug use and STDs compared to the general population.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #187
188. I don't need to prove to you that there are drugs and STDs
If you want to know for the exact numbers, go look them up. I consider this stuff a very very serious problem. If you don't buy my premise, or if you just don't want to know just how serious it is, well that's your choice.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #188
190. There's drugs and STDs in EVERY job -- you made the assumption, so YOU provide the facts
Why should I go looking for facts that you can't seem to back up?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #190
196. I am wondering as to what other jobs, other than porn and prostitution,
can infect their workers with STDs as a part of a job process?
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #196
202. This stuff happens at every job, of course.
/sarcasm
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #190
199. You told on yourself
You just don't want to know the details. If you wanted to know, as I did, you would have gone and found out for yourself. This isn't about me, and it isn't about you.

Jenna Jameson on the Drug Use
“Amazingly, even though the workload is so small, some girls still don’t show up on set. And when they do, they’re often late and hung over, with ratty hair and nails that haven’t been done in a year. They think that becoming a porn star means just fucking and doing drugs, but it’s a job. You punch the clock and you go to work.” (Pg. 329)

“The biggest challenges for girls doing movies regularly are drugs and dating. A boyfriend can be a nightmare for your career and your emotional health. Some girls come into the industry with creepy guys already attached, and they’ll be doing anal, gang bangs, and bukkake all in one film just to support his drug habit. By the time the girl cleans herself up, she’s twenty-six, done nine hundred movies, looks like Margaret Thatcher in the morning, and has nothing to show for it.” (Pg. 333)
http://antipornographyactivist.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/jenna-jamesons-twenty-five-good-reasons-why-no-one-would-ever-want-to-become-a-porn-star/ (Thanks AntiPorn)

Gene Ross interviews Anita Cannibal:
"(Anita) Cannibal mentions that the STD rate in porn is also alarming and makes an analogy to consumers boycotting goods made in sweat shops. Cannibal wondered allowed that if porn consumers knew the true facts of the STD rate in the business would they buy movies showing performers acquiring them."
http://www.adultfyi.com/read.php?ID=24701'

Dr. Peter Kerndt: The Adult Film Industry:Needs State and Federal Legislation
(Peter Kerndt is Director of the STD Program for the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health)

"...condom use is reportedly low in heterosexual adult films—approximately 17% for adult performers, according to a recent New York Times article. In 2004, reports show, only two of the 200 adult film companies required the use of condoms for all penile–anal and penile–vaginal penetration. Performers report that they are required to work without condoms to maintain employment."

"Between January 2003 and March 2005, studies show, approximately 976 performers reported 1,153 positive STD test results. Of those, 722 (62.6 %) were chlamydia, 355 (30.8%) were gonorrhea, and 126 (10.9%) were coinfections with chlamydia and gonorrhea. Less is known about the prevalence and risk of transmission of other STDs such as syphilis, herpes simplex virus, human papillomavirus, hepatitis B or C, trichomonal infection, or diseases transmitted through the fecal–oral route."
http://www.adultfyi.com/read.php?ID=25092



Do you require more? I was just getting started.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #199
204. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
189. Freedom of Choice and Harmfulness (in porn and the sex industries)
The good people at NoPornNorthampton http://nopornnorthampton.org/ wrote this excellent post below on choice and consent in pornography, which quotes liberally from the extremely informative chapter by Rebecca Whisnant http://www.myspace.com/rebeccawhisnant in NOT FOR SALE, http://www.notforsale-book.org/ called "Confronting Pornography: Some Conceptual Basics". Many important points are made that deserve serious consideration if one is addressing porn and sex trade issues.

Freedom of Choice and Harmfulness

The argument that women freely choose to perform in porn films is often presumed to end all debate, but not every free choice is a good choice for one's self or society.

The problem with porn is not that it's offensive, but that it's harmful. Offense is subjective, and can be avoided by refusing to look at the offending material. Harm is objective: to be made less safe, to have one's interests set back. Women can be harmed by porn even if they are not aware of it. Mass consumption of porn creates a climate where women are more likely to be harassed, discriminated against, and treated as sex objects rather than real people. Porn performers also suffer long-term physical and emotional damage. (p.22)

What about women who choose to participate in porn? Whisnant acknowledges that feminists have overemphasized the coercion argument. It's not helpful to blur the difference between actual compulsion and choices that are distorted by a woman's lack of opportunities or sexual abuse history, serious as these problems are. Free choice is certainly better than being forced into the industry, but it is not the only relevant consideration. (p.23) She observes:

Rather than always putting 'choice' and 'consent' in scare-quotes, we need to clarify what does and does not follow from the observation that something is a choice, or is consensual. That something is chosen or consensual is perfectly consistent with its being seriously oppressive, abusive, and harmful--to oneself and or to a broader group of which one is a member (e.g. women). (p.23)

In other words, a free choice can still be a bad choice. Individual choices also don't exist in a vacuum. A woman's decision to be a porn star may feel empowering to her, but if it helps normalize and perpetuate an industry that disempowers many other women, it's not just a private matter. (p.24)

Moreover, our emphasis on the woman's choice conveniently keeps the focus away from porn producers and consumers, and whether they are making harmful choices. The option of becoming a porn performer wouldn't even exist if consumers didn't create the demand for "a sub-class of women (and children, and men, and transgender people--but mostly women) who are available for their unconditional sexual service." (p.25)
http://nopornnorthampton.org/2006/10/10/a-review-of-rebecca-whisnant-confronting-pornography-some-conceptual-basics.aspx
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Moses2SandyKoufax Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #189
191. You do realize,
this is a partisan political message board?
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #191
192. Yes. What does that have to do with my post about choice in regards to pornography?
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Moses2SandyKoufax Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #192
193. I'll repeat,
Democratic Underground is a political message board where members discuss Democratic/liberal politics. The discussions are not limited to a debate over pornography. I noticed your profile, and thread you made your debut in. It seems this is your one and only issue.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #193
194. who the f* cares. and what does that have to do with anything,
especially in this here thread that particular poster is posting in. whats you point?
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Moses2SandyKoufax Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #194
195. It means quit spamming the board.
I hate when people use these boards to advance their pet agenda.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #195
197. i have my pet issues. gonna tell me not to post. this person has as much RIGHT to post, as you
geez...
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #195
198. Spam would be off topic. I am posting about porn on a porn thread. Please feel free to do the same.
And for what it's worth, you misunderstood my profile. That being said, if you have a problem with me or my profile or posts, please feel free to message me or report me. This thread is not about me. It is for discussing the harmfulness and abusiveness of the porn industry. If you have something to say about that or my actual post regarding choice, feel free to comment.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #195
203. Its on-topic - nt
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #195
205. So goodbye environmentalists, GLBT activists, feminists, animal rights folks, etc. then.
FYI: Democrats tend to be people who care about a wide variety of causes, and incorporate them in to their political views.
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Moses2SandyKoufax Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #205
207. Read her profile.
Edited on Sun Nov-11-07 11:12 PM by drking81
She doesn't seem to care too much about politics. BTW, environmental, civil/equal/animal rights are pertinent to Democratic/liberal politics and ideals. Can't recall a knee-jerk "porn bad" plank in any party platform.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #207
208. I've read profiles of DUers who only mention an interest in their favorite sports team
There are also DUers who only post about non-political topics in the Lounge or GD. So what? This is a thread about porn. If this new DU member starts posting about porn in threads about, say, Dennis Kucinich's chances in the Primary then you may have a point. But if she posts about whatever the topic is, then there is no problem. So far I see no violation of thread-jacking rules here. Do you?
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Moses2SandyKoufax Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #208
212. You have a point. There has been no thread jacking. However,
Edited on Sun Nov-11-07 11:55 PM by drking81
I don't see the point in joining the board under that particular handle and profile, it makes the author seem one-dimensional.

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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #207
224. Then its time for a hearty welcome!
Probably very few people here were born caring about politics. There was an event or an issue that brought us here. The good news is that we found the right party - the party that among other things stands up for workers, the poor, minorities and all those who need someone to stand up for them.
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #224
268. Thank you. :-) I appreciate your kindness.
And as you can tell, I am definitely totally in favor of standing up for workers, the poor, minorities and all those who need someone to stand up for them. In that spirit, I just posted a new post quoting Bill Margold of the Protect Adult Welfare foundation on how horrific the abuses in the porn industry are and why they should not be tolerated. I'm so glad he is being honest about this issue and is working to help make things better.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
217.  Hillary would be a natural choice to pull the reigns in on the porn industry. However,
the "darkside" of porn is not likely an issue which will be immediately addressed by either party.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #217
222. Look at the growing sexual enslavement of women all over the world!!!
Difficult subject --- and not being addressed by female politicians ---

LOTS OF MONEY IN THIS ---



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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #222
223. Hill will do more about this than anyone else in the presidential race. She'll be
in a better position with her mandate from the landslide.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #223
226. I'd be thrilled to have a female in WH for those very reasons . . . thrilled!!!
but I'm very uneasy about Hillary ----
she's no Edwards --- and no Kucinich ---
Council on Foreign Relations ---

Too much a part of the establishment ---

I'm really not looking forward to a choice like that ---

also, don't trust her on abortion . . . she's already tried to make "concession" moves -- oddly enough.

don't trust her on health care --- she's leaving insurance companies in again ---

don't trust here re Social Security ---

Bill was a deal maker -- and I have the feeling she'd be even a bigger one --

No talk of IMPEACHMENT --- ???

Too cozy with Bush ---

Smells of establishment . . . . IMO



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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #226
243. My worry is that she would team up with fundamentalists on this issue
We need to differentiate ourselves from them. We need politicians who will go after the global sex slave trade and to protect the people working in the industry here right now. People who are consumers of the sex industry and those who are considering working in it should be making informed choices about what they are doing. There is so much porn available on the internet and who knows where it comes from or how the people came to be in it. The Religious Right just wants to censor everything and all that will do is drive the bad stuff more underground.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #243
312. With the rise of the right, we see renewed efforts to debase and oppress females ---
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 10:31 PM by defendandprotect
and sexual exploitation of women and children ---

We're seeing a lot of coat-trading right now, if you know what I mean.
As the money shifts to the Democrats, those with $ and interests at stake are also having to look for deal making to shift.

Women and children can often get betrayed in that deal making.

I see we're both very concerned about the explosion of internet porn ---
and porn in general, I presume?

There's so much to read and do right now . . .
it's difficult to read enough to get a new interesting thread started ---

but my emphasis --- and what I'm trying to get people to see --- is that pornography is simply propaganda against females --- as much as the Bible or the Hammer of Witches were ---

Also -- I think it's important to look at the viewer and not just the viewed ---

that sure galls a few here !!!!

THEY don't want to be looked at -- !!!


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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #312
352. They'd rather compare US to fundies
Than see how this industry is reinforcing inequality in a very nasty and brutal way.

I believe the conservative elite WANT porn to get as extreme as possible so they can use it as justification to clamp down the media. I know it's a little conspiracy theory-ish but with all this stuff that's going on with high profile men getting busted for child porn, I can't help but wonder.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #217
233. Not as long as the Dems are in the thrall of the industry
Republicans DO address it though. They fill the void by talking about 'family values' and the 'coursening of the culture' and the 'safety of our children from predators'. Sure, it's a bunch of horseshit but contrary to what many of the wannabe slick hipsters here on the progressive side think, it works.

The GOP will never actually do anything about the violence and abuse in the sex industry because a) so many of them are big customers of it and b) they try to put bans and censorship in place and criminalize the people who work in it, which often backfires on them. But at least they are SAYING something about it in public.

Of course, should any Dem politician promise to address it, no doubt the industry would mount a well-funded campaign to bring that person down. It would have to be someone on the level of the Presidential candidates, or at least someone in a very safe Congressional or Senate seat.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #233
234. and even with that. what tipper was asking, for a mere rating on music
to protect kids and the dems that come out to attack. parents on both sides of the line, dem and republican want this to stay in the ADULT world and not have it filter into our young childrens life, yet if there is even a suggestion of protection for our children there is an up in arms about censorship, and depriving our children at young ages of their sexuality from an adults perspective, instead of allowing children to find their own natural journey in sexuality in their innocence and appropriate development.

tipper was scewed.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
227. As long as there is no cigarette smoke on the set. n/t
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
267. Bill Margold of PAWS (Protecting Adult Welfare) speaks out about the abuses of the porn industry
Veteran porn actor, director, and activist Bill Margold, former director of the “Adult” Industry’s “Free Speech Coalition”, and currently a trustee of the PAW Foundation, (”Protecting Adult Welfare”, at http://www.pawfoundation.org/), decribes below the current extreme level of abusiveness and exploitation that occurs in the porn industry.

“If we continue to force degradation and perversion of any kind, beating the Hell out of fellow performers and doing things to them that the human body isn’t really able to withstand – what I refer to now as the fear factor of X, perpetrating violence and derogatory situations upon them – why do we need to do that anymore when we can simply have sex without making sex derogatory or making sex dirty in the sense of defiling and dehumanizing people and basically physically hurting them? In a recent interview I once said what’s going happen when one of these people breaks? When they take so many penii, interesting term, so many dicks are shoved into them at one time that the body gives up and capitulates. What are they going to do when someone rips apart? When so many dicks are shoved into one hole? I’m being a little graphic but so many of the people making these movies these days have no business even going anywhere near a video camera, many of them have lost site (sic) of what creativity is and because they can’t create they’re frustrated and because they’re frustrated they just do whatever they can to shock. Eventually they’re just going to deal in physical pain, and I will not tolerate that.” …

“They’re doing bad things to people, making them cry, making them feel like pieces of meat, and they’re being brutalized and mistreated. They’re brutalized to the point of a lack of common sense. What we need to practice is ‘common sense-orship.’ These people do not need to be put into a fear factor of X, they don’t need to be penetrated over and over and over again, or the human body and the human mind will break and when you break their spirits and their minds you have nothing left. A lot of the vacancy in this business is readily apparent now, and a lot of the drugs that are in this business now are painkillers so that the girls don’t even know what they’re being put through, they’re just vacant. That, to me, is abhorrent. I’m not censoring, it’s interesting I was accused by one filmmaker of censoring him, but I’m not censoring this business, I’m criticizing this business because I’ve earned the right to criticize it and if you don’t like it, that’s your problem, and theirs as well.”

“I’m mad about that. It’s upsetting me that people will come to see me and cry and I don’t know how to strike back, and I’m suggesting to people that they get out of this business before they become eliminated from this business. A lot of these people, if they don’t want to play ball with the possible rules handed down to them, will find themselves behind bars which is maybe where they belong and there they’ll find themselves rendered into the same pieces of meat that they rendered their performers into.”

“I want to raise the age to twenty one, I want to now bring drug testing into the business and eradicate the escort services, and I want to one day have a porn tax.”

http://www.dvdmaniacs.net/Features/bill_margold.html
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #267
277. every pro porn person should read. "defiling and dehumanizing people "
and so much more.

i like this man. at least in the mist of his job, there lies an integrity.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #277
316. Is this a magazine article, or book --- or what?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #316
317. i am sorry. it isnt clear. i was refering to the post i attached to. that should be read
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 10:46 PM by seabeyond
the dehumanize is what the man said that i pulled out. his words
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
271. So some Jesus-bot helps to shame women out of paying work into wage slavery?
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 04:14 PM by LeftyMom
Well, yay for her I guess. :sarcasm:

I mean, I support reforms as much as anybody, but telling women to get other work when they're generally not qualified for anything one can survive on (let alone survive on in LA) without creating other economic opportunities is bullshit. They can ditch the drugs and the freeloading boyfriends without finding Jesus and a McJob, but that might be real help, and the fundamentalists aren't into that.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #271
275. Apparently,
it is more "degrading" to work in the adult industries than to be on food stamps and working full time at Wally World.

Go figure.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #275
276. I did returns at TRU one holiday season.
Were I properly equipped, I'd have picked the pole over that job any day and twice on Sundays. Even if the pay were equal. At least the hours would have been better.

I should start a campaign to let women know that Jeebus will save them from retail.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #276
280. Oy.
I did a few jobs like that myself.

I don't know as many dancers as I do adult film folks - both performers and producers. But one thing the ones I know have in common is they all laugh at how easy it is to part men from their money.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #276
285. Okay, you know what you just did, right?
Make someone faint from the thought of it...
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #271
279. You missed the point. I think thread has gotten too long.
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 05:47 PM by sampsonblk
I think the thread has gotten too long and it's become unclear what the original discussion was about. My post was supposed to be about the abuses of women in the porn/exotic dance industry. But, threads do tend to stray, don't they?

I didn't intend to post about Harmony Dust or her efforts. I was using her as my one excellent example of someone doing something about it.

FYI, Harmony doesn't shame anyone. Her message is simple: If you ever want to get out of stripping, we will help you.

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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #279
282. How much is she helping?
I mean, one of her big success stories thinks she might work her way up to diner manager someday. They're moving in with their folks and getting dead-end jobs. That's not empowerment, that's infantilization.

"We'll help you choose a life of poverty" isn't really a message of hope. Where are these escapees from dancing that are getting master's degrees too? How can they with their newfound dead-end jobs, unless their SOs or parents foot the bill?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #282
288. Good grief! Who the FUCK are YOU accusing of infantilization?
You remind me of Barbara Bush talking about the Katrina victims at the Astrodome.

"So many of these girls were underprivileged anyway. This stripping thing is really working out for them!"


:puke:


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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #288
289. that is how i felt about the post. like you arent willing to "make" these women
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 07:18 PM by seabeyond
get a college degree and put in a career and totally fix their life for them in all ways.... how dare you help them out of their environment they dont want to be in. makes absolutely no sense.

and to lurkin dem saying how poster made people "faint".... pretty retarded. got nothin more than a sad shakin of the head.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #289
291. wtf are you talking about?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #289
293. Well of course, need to have a Masters Degree and a white collar profession
To count for anything. Otherwise, all occupations are equally demeaning. At least that's the attitude I'm catching around here. These people think they are being so clever when they compare how 'degrading' it is to work at WalMart or whatever. All they are doing is revealing what elitist assholes they are and how they look down on ALL people in the working class and service industries.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #293
294. Holy shit!
PEOPLE IN THE INDUSTRY ARE TELLING YOU DIFFERENT.

Christ on a crutch do you just make up crap in your head so everything fits your predefined parameters?

No one here is denigrating the working class. What we ARE seeing is women who work in the adult sex industries being denigrated by those who feel they need "saving" or are apparently unable to see they have other choices.

We are disgusted that women are being shamed out of great paying jobs because the moral do gooder squad has an indignation hard on.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #294
296. And other people in the industry are telling YOU different.
I am disgusted that people choose to ignore the suffering of their fellow human beings in order to maintain a sexual underclass.

The people who choose to be and enjoy being in the industry can stay in it.

The people who want to leave should be able to leave and if people want to help them do it, they are good people.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #296
298. That's the quote of the Day
"The people who want to leave should be able to leave and if people want to help them do it, they are good people."
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #294
303. you IGNORE #267. why? cause he will faint w/ word sex. no no, cause he is a prude
or maybe he is to be ignored cause really he has always been a closeted fundamentalist just coming out.

why are you ignoring this man who talks from experience. why dismiss him. and if there is even a half a truth WHY bury your head in the sand and pretend there is not an issue?
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #303
304. I think maybe you are confused.
I never said anything about fainting to anybody. I did not ignore anybody. I did not call anyone a prude.

You are putting words and ideas into my mouth and then getting all pissed off at me for shit you have made up out of whole cloth.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #304
309. did you read post #267? n/t
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #309
311. Yes I read it.
And I took it the same way I take everything Bill says. With a very, very large grain of salt.

Are there bad people in the industry? Of course there are. There are fucked up priests in the Catholic Church, too.

When people start viewing those in the industry as "degraded" and in need of "saving" (up to and including with a dose of Jesus) and people who support the industry as incapable of being progressives or inherently misogynist (or, as alluded above, unable to get sex any other way), then it becomes a morality crusade.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #311
313. you are sad.... it cannot all simply be blamed on the fundamentalist
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 10:42 PM by seabeyond
(there are not that many fundamentalist in this nation.) but instead, you prefer to overlook the abuses and ugliness to protect. people do the same in so many areas. it is like it is seen only there is and there isnt. no inbetween

sexual gratification off the pain of others. morality on this issue really has nothing to do with selling ones body. has more to do with simple humanity
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #313
318. Did I blame it all
on the fundamentalist? Did I say to overlook abuses?

Apparently, I may as well be speaking Greek for all you comprehend anything I say.

Prattle on if you want. I'm done.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #318
323. you always bring it right back to those damn religious people "saving"
to the point of harping, to the point of dismissing all else.

you throw a lot of whine in every one of your arguing posts.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #311
325. But characterizing people who point out the (many) bad parts of the industry
As repressed, anti-sex prudes is A-OK?

Denouncing those who try to help people who are suffering in the industry find a way out as fundies, while insisting those people should stay in porn or stripping because they aren't fit to do anything else is, what? Progressive?

How would you describe implying that the state of being a sex worker is akin to an innate sexual orientation, so that any religious person who offers to help get someone out of it is just as bad as Donnie McClurkin or Ted Haggart? Is espousing that certain people were born to take on certain occupational roles a liberal value now?

Is it now OK for this industry to commit or allow heinous abuses against many of its workers, and a shoddy, unhealthy product to be sold because a few people manage to 'succeed' in it?



What's YOUR crusade?
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #288
305. Fuck off. I am a struggling working class mom, not somebody looking down their nose like you.
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 08:58 PM by LeftyMom
If you'd listen first instead of getting all self-righteous and making assumptions based more on lifetime movies than real women, you'd know many dancers like the work, for the pay, the hours or simply because it's not a nine to five thing and they can mostly come and go as they please. Some don't, but most of us aren't crazy about our work, which is why we get paid to do it.

Ask a few.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-15-07 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #305
353. I ain't crazy about my job either.
In fact I'm sort of trapped into it, what with mortgage, college tuition, etc., I'm just not free to follow my bliss. Work is oppressive, some work more oppressive than others. When the morality police start proposing policies that will liberate all of us from the oppression of wage slavery, I might start paying attention. Until then they are just the reincarnation of Carry Nation and her Hatchet Brigade.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #279
284. What sickens me the most about this thread
Are the people who think that no one should help women who want to get out. I've seen several comments to that effect. As in, how DARE someone tell our sexual underclass they have other options! Really tells you where these so-called progressives' priorities are. :(
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #284
286. "Sexual underclass"
(including, in one post, female producers of adult films) is the strawman upon which your argument is based.

I saw no objections to women being made aware they had options (as if they are not).

And then you denigrate out progressive credentials on top of it.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #286
292. The comments are all over this thread. Look for them.
And yes, I'll denigrate the progressive credentials of anyone who's made them.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #284
287. Yep, very unfortunate-nt
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #284
306. I'm all in favor of real options.
So if somebody wants to skip the makeup bags and start a college fund, I'm in. But poverty isn't a real option, especially for mothers.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #271
295. And I guess if they decided to add stripping to the job description of whatever you do
You'd be okay with that?

I mean, what's wrong with having to dance naked for your boss once in a while, in addition to your other duties? I mean, why don't they just get rid of all those dumb sexual harassment laws that say your manager, co-workers, and clients can't demand you shake your ass and show your private parts to them to earn your paycheck?

But wait...maybe you're "qualified" to do stuff. More Important Stuff. Stuff that means you don't have to even consider between being naked in a room full of clothed strangers or a McJob.

Oh...and maybe you have "other economic opportunities". Lucky you.


So maybe you don't have to be naked in front of a room full of clothed strangers to make a decent living. In fact, maybe if your employer even SUGGESTED that you do that to keep your job or get a raise, you'd be plenty mad. You might even sue.

But these other women, these "unqualified" women with "no opportunities"? They should keep on stripping. Even if they want desperately to do something, anything else.

Even a low-paying McJob.

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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #295
308. You're assuming that if you don't want that work, nobody does.
It wouldn't be my first pick, but the much better money and more doable hours (I'm a student, so shorter hours would be a huge improvement in mine and my son's life) would be real tempting. And many of the clubs here aren't at all sketchy.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #308
322. Why don't you?
I mean that seriously. You say the clubs in your area are decent and the hours would be shorter. You already have positive firsthand accounts from people in the career right here on this thread. You've claimed it couldn't be worse than another job that you've had:

Were I properly equipped, I'd have picked the pole over that job any day and twice on Sundays. Even if the pay were equal. At least the hours would have been better.

You've asserted that women who are stripping right now can't do any better:

I mean, one of her big success stories thinks she might work her way up to diner manager someday. They're moving in with their folks and getting dead-end jobs. That's not empowerment, that's infantilization.

"We'll help you choose a life of poverty" isn't really a message of hope. Where are these escapees from dancing that are getting master's degrees too? How can they with their newfound dead-end jobs, unless their SOs or parents foot the bill?


Then you admit that you, yourself, are struggling and working class:

Fuck off. I am a struggling working class mom, not somebody looking down their nose like you.

If you'd listen first instead of getting all self-righteous and making assumptions based more on lifetime movies than real women, you'd know many dancers like the work, for the pay, the hours or simply because it's not a nine to five thing and they can mostly come and go as they please. Some don't, but most of us aren't crazy about our work, which is why we get paid to do it.

Ask a few.


LeftyMom, there is only one thing left for me to say. The pole awaits you.














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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #322
330. I'm not curvy, I can't dance, and my hearing issues make loud music torturous?
But I'm smart enough to realize that not for me doesn't mean not for anybody.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #330
331. but... no ONE stated not for ANYbody, right? n/t
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 10:11 AM by seabeyond
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #331
332. It's certainly implied in this argument about how horrible and degrading and blah blah it is.
There are laws against drugs and harassment in the workplace. In areas where those are prevalent (not here, you can't even drink in the clubs here) those laws should be applied.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #332
333. no, i dont think it was implied. you may interpret it as such. but that is
not what is being stated. and yes it is a given that some are not impressed with the choice of stripping. even with that, it is not the same as saying NO ONE should be allowed to do.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #330
334. Then you should be smart enough to realize
That maybe it's no longer for the women who Harmony Dust is helping to get out of it, either.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #334
335. "help" seems like a stretch.
helping them find a job that pays anywhere near as well would be help. Daycare assistance while they go to school would be help. Helping to pay for rehab for those who need it is real help.

"Call me if you need moral support" isn't much help at all.

It doesn't sound like any of her success stories from the article are better off, either.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #335
336. ......and apparently you're not. n/t
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #335
337. why we need to vote dem. n/t
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
278. A great post. Also a very moving article.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #278
281. Thanks!-nt
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Anti-Porn Activist Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
307. Very revealing study on sexual abuse and exploitation in the strip club industry
STRIP CLUB TESTIMONY, by Kelly Holsopple - The Freedom and Justice Center for Prostitution Resources

Physical Abuse

Customers spit on women, spray beer, and flick cigarettes at them. Strippers are pelted with ice, coins, trash, condoms, room keys, pornography, and golf balls. Men pitched a live guinea pig and a dead squirrel at two women in the survey. Some women have been hit with cans and bottles thrown from the audience. Customers pull women’s hair, yank them by the arm or ankle, rip their costumes, and try to pull their costumes off. Women are commonly bitten, licked, slapped, punched, and pinched.

Sexual Abuse

Stripclub customers frequently grab women’s breasts, buttocks, and genitals. Customers often attempt and succeed at penetrating strippers vaginally and anally with their fingers, dollar bills, and bottles. Customers expose their penises, rub their penises on women, and masturbate in front of the women. Women in this study consistently connected lap dances to the sexual abuse they suffered in the club. "That’s the first thing men try to do when they get close to you and always in a lap dance." Stripclub owners, managers, and staff also expect women to masturbate them and some have forced intercourse on strippers.

Verbal Abuse

Customers, owners, managers, and staff alike engage in harassing name-calling. Women are continually called "c**t, "whore", "p***y", "slut", and "bitch". Women in this study charge that men in the stripclub called them other demeaning or degrading names like ugly, looser, fat, pregnant, boy, stupid, crack, slash, snatch, beaver, dog, dyke, lezzie, brown eye, hooters, junkie, crackhead, and shit. Forty four percent of the women report that men associated with the stripclub have threatened to hurt them physically. These women report from three to 150 threats during their involvement in stripping. Threats range from verbal threats of slaps, ass whippings, and rapes to physical postures of punching and back hand slapping. "When I wouldn’t let a customer grab on me, he would call me a bitch and threaten to kick my ass or rape me." "When a customer grabs and the woman and the girl takes action, they threaten".

Stalking

Men associated with stripclubs repeatedly attempt to contact the women against their wishes. Strippers are followed home and stalked by stripclub customers. Customers telephone, write letters, send gifts, and follow the women around against their wishes. Women recount stories of catching customers following them to fitness clubs, parks and lakes, day care centers, and even lesbian bars. They describe times when customers have broken into their homes and taken underwear, hairbrushes, and family photographs. Women say that other customers have used their jobs at the telephone company or within the criminal justice system to target the women. The women complain that customers also have followed them home masturbating while driving in the next lane. Women who travel the strip circuit to rural areas report that customers and stripclub owners, managers, and staff alike follow women from city to city and state to state. Furthermore, local men in small towns harass the visiting women by calling and knocking on the doors of the motel rooms and have been caught peeping in the windows of strippers’ motel rooms. Twelve percent of the women who reported being followed to their cars further reported that they were robbed (5.6 %), beaten (11.1%), threatened with a weapon (5.6%), verbally sexually harassed (66.7%), and sexually assaulted (16.7%) by customers. A customer who claimed he was in love with the woman followed her to her car, called her a "fucking c**t" and strangled her hard enough to cause blood to squirt from her neck.

All of the above is from this link where you can see the full study with much more information: http://www.ccv.org/downloads/pdf/Strip_club_study.pdf

Note: I had to edit the profanity in order to not have the post deleted by a moderator for being too sexually explicit. (That already happened to my STD post of yesterday.)

**********************************************************

Anti-Porn Activist :-)
http://antipornographyactivist.blogspot.com/

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-12-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #307
310. it is all that RESPECT these men have for these women. yup
Edited on Mon Nov-12-07 09:19 PM by seabeyond
feelin the love
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #307
342. Wow, a sample size of eighteen.
Her results don't jibe with her methods.

Suh-prise suh-prise.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
344. You do realize it is not just a problem for women?
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #344
346. Explain yourself please-nt
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #344
347. Please expand.
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