Next election when you go to the voting booth here is

how you should look at the election.

No this is not about party, but social class

For example, if you are a worker, a member of a union.. voting for any of the current crop of Republicans is
suicidal since they are against your interests and your social class.

In the primaries voting for some of the Democrats is also against your interest.

Now if you are a member of the Investor class, having seen what the GOP has done with the economy, voting for Republicans is
also suicidal. (Look at the Statistics, the economy does better under Dem Rule)... that said... the Dems that will protect your interests best are not the ones who that working class person should vote for.

In other words, stop thinking of party and start thinking of class

They do... regularly... the one percenters that is. And they have been doing all they can to convince you that they have
your interests in mind... they don't.

So it is time to start thinking in terms that most Americans have not thought off in twenty plus years... and that is class consciousness... and realize that you vote for your interets... not those of the folks who would love to exploit you.

Oh and since I have used a certain language... FUCK HOOVER... the last thing they want, the powers that be... is the rise of real class consciousness once again... since certain things follow, such as the strengthening of the Union Movement and Single Payer, NOT for profit heath care, as well as protection of American jobs, aka your job and my job.

Oh and as to the DLC... just as much as the RNC... they hate this thinking too... and they distrust the rabble, the unwashed masses, aka you and me, fellow WORKERS..

Well said!! That's it in a nutshell!

That's what all the hrc, dlc, dk, DNC, DSSS, gop and centrists etc. battle cries are all about!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Vote for what the common man and woman's best interest are!!

That means YOU & ME!!!! They are the engine that makes America move!!

VOTE FOR THEM!!!!!

:kick: & Recommended!

I doubt anyone here is considering a vote for the GOP, but against our own candidates? That's just silly. If the DLC delivers victory, I'm confident DUers will demonstrate intelligence and support the ticket.

and actually my planned economy would be based on New Deal principles

But then again you may belief FDR was a socialist and a commie too

It did work. And most US populations are STILL benefiting from infrastructure and amenities built back in those days to get people working AND give America needed projects done and done well!

for example... and go back to the Sherman Act... and darn it, enforce it.

And why would I use socialist as a slur? I *am* a socialist, raised by a socialist ... trained in a socialist youth organization and elected national secretary.

BTW, have you actually read Marx's Das Kapital? Talk about anti-semitic ... when he starts on the Jewish bankers, I knew it was gonna be a tough read.

But Lenin was right about structuring troikas. My father described how effective they were against authoritarian rule. Still, as my brother notes, the Internet may be our salvation.

But it takes people of good will to stand up for accomodation and tolerance - and against rabble rousers like you who deal in resentment. Next year's election is about hope for a better America, not a time to settle old scores.

you asked about economic organization.... and now bring out FDR's personal feelings, and expand om Das Kapital, which I have read... and then tell me that you are a socialist... trained in the socialist school...

Trotskyte perhaps? Would explain your philosophical evolution to a T Freda...

So why don't we stick to the subject.

You started this by telling me that this was out of Lenin.. given that this talk was also common in the US in the 1920s and 30s, inside and OUTSIDE the Communist party... and that I am talking about a return to Keynesian Economic and the abandonment of the Neo-Liberal, Third Way, Friedman Chicago School that has been an utter failure... that is unless you are a one percenter.

So shall we deal with the reality in the country? And the fact that I said NEXT election... now Fredda I fear I need to point this out to you.. but the NEXT election ARE the primaries.

And while I understood Trotsky and his compromises - my father's went to Soviet schools, so that helped - the man faced a miserable end in Mexico. Why follow a loser?

You're correct about communist movements in the US, but I'm not sure you appreciate how FDR's proposals were widely seen a response to an internal threat - that he spared the US a European style revolution. Applying that reasoning, any of the top candidates would fit well in the FDR tradition. He may have been a "traitor to his class", but he saved capitalism from its consequences.

and the rabble... and I know why the New Deal was ennaceted and principally WHERE it came from and it wasn't the Democratic Party.

That said, lets stick to the fundamentals... we need TO END Friedman Style Disaster Capitalism and RETURN to Keynesian Economics and New Deal.

Now if you don't mind, I don't have time for these games of one upmanship while avoiding the main questions.

So care to stick to why people should vote their class in the primaries and pressure to return to fiscal sanity? I realize this is AGAINST Neo Liberal third way thinking, and since you are SO WELL educated you know what Third Way stands for.

This dialog is not for your benefit ... DUers deserve a good airing of history and issues that related to today's events.

You oppose the Third Way, which as DUers are well aware is Bill Clinton's triangulation strategy. I'm confident that most of us would appreciate a return to a near decade of relative peace and prosperity, when cultural conservatives could rant ineffectually because Wall St and Main St were solidly behind the competent administration.

anyhow let DU'ers decide, given that the Third Way is NOT a Clinton Idea.

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/neoliberalism.html

And it has its roots in Europe

There is more... you are familiar with Disaster Capitalism and the Chicago School? You should, becuase FREE TRADE is code for the Chicago School and Disaster Capitalism and privatization of all public services.

make us laugh. I never claimed it was his original idea - why create a strawman?

Free trade? When did that canard fly in?

3.2.1... ignore

(And I expect you to chase me around like oh that other DU'er that has made me her personal project)

And for the readying public, this tactic to try to misdirect and hijack threads by avoiding actual discusion is a classic....

I just have less patience for it any longer

Good luck eat'n that.

I'm just sayin.

I've been doing this a long time in the wild west of the 'nets ... before you could technically call it the Internet in fact. So I appreciate the oasis of good taste DU demonstrates and the effort maintainance requires.

It's amusing this -crap- can stand on DU, but one better not use the too accurate word Apartheid in discussing a certain imperial client state of the USA, its creation having been the single greatest anti-semitic act in history.

Not much to add to your posts in this thread --you've said just about everything I would have already.

Not One.

maybe I just dreamed that.

The prevailing legal doctrine prescribes that if there's a choice between malice and incompetence, the executive gets the benefit of the doubt and the privilege of discretion. So, as they argue, the Democratic Party has chosen to fight meaningful battles and eschew political payback.

And I am tired of seeing my fellow Americans falling for their tactic of 'divide & conquerer'

Take their wedge issues and shove them up their asses. VOTE for AMERICANS, not One Percenters!

and the one percenters have been at the systematic destruction of the New Deal since Reagan took over.

The Chicago School is now coming home. As a theory it looks pretty... but it is time to go back to Keynseian economics and sanity... and STRONG unions and a STRONG middle class.

"There are only two classes, the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. And whoever isn’t on one side is on the other."

Ten Days That Shook the World
VII. The Revolutionary Front
John Reed (1887–1920)
http://www.bartleby.com/79/7.html

:toast:

They make a nice political target. But what makes you think they're particularly Republican? Many are Democrat. And that's not necessarily against their own interest. Just because someoe is in that 1% doesn't mean they see screwing the other 99% as your economic and political goal. Such a person might well view the social and cultural changes that would result from more reasonable economic policies as much to their benefit, even if it means their marginal tax rate goes up a couple of points.

And look at your fellow workers. They are not all Democrats. Is that entirely because they emotionally associate with an economic group to which they'll never belong? Or because there are other political issues beside class?

:hippie:

And no, the connections some will try to make between these and economic class are not nearly so tight as they pretend. There are some. But there are more connections that cut across class. A gated community doesn't buy anyone's children a way out of the effects of global warming. It doesn't guarantee one won't be arrested for exercising what are basic freedoms, once those are made illegal.

:hippie:

and women's ability to have an abortion ARE economic issues at its core

The flat Earthers regarding global warming tend to be the owners of industries for whom regulation or banishment of their economic goods would be disastrous for them ECONOMICALLY... why they keep fighting

Now you tell me that a woman's ability to control her participation in the economy and when she gets pregnant is not economic?
My..my, you have kids? They ain't cheap. And having kids at 16 will definitely prevent you from achieving (most likely, there are exceptions) and will get you stuck in the poverty cycle. Why do you think Professional Women have kids later in life? And why do you think strong matriarchal societies do all they can to prevent this ability from reaching women? Their entry into the workforce, and education usually is accompanied by economic changes.

WOW

As to the other two they are a product in the West of the Renaissance and Enlightenment thought.

Yes, of course there is an economic aspect to abortion. That doesn't mean that the economic aspect is the major cause of the issue. Nor does that necessarily align the sides with class.

:hippie:

For the foot soldier in the abortion wars it has a religious component, but for those who designed the wedge issue as a wedge issue it is economic.

Allowing women, especially poor women, to have control of their bodies IS AN ECONOMIC issue of immense proportions and lessens the control of a patriarchal society... my ooops, I did not mean matriarchal but patriarchal.

Those who design these policies and issues are that cynical... and they use language to divide and chiefly control... and ultimately for economic control.

It is no coinicidence that this war against abortion in the US has reached its peak under a very conservative, some might even call it Radical government, whose goal is the privatization of all services and the end of any safety net.

Because you want it to be an economic issue, you imagine that there is some group of the very rich who are thinking that they can better control the poor if women are not allowed to have abortion. Do you have any evidence for that?

:hippie:

across the world

And if you think the US is exceptional and the elites are not thinking the same way they do in other countries...

That is your right.

But historically the resistance to this birth control from elites is economic, not religious.

You keep making these assertions. I'm asking where the evidence is.

:hippie:

since you seem unable to use the goggle

http://www.iwpr.org/states/pdf/bstwrst2.PDF

http://ideas.repec.org/a/pal/develp/v48y2005i4p85-91.html

http://www.iserp.columbia.edu/research/seed_grants/reproductive_rights.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=4xz0MbmKHXsC&pg=PA42&ots=_dvTm_GbNe&dq=the+economics+of+reproductive+rights&sig=IqO5pjlBkmlhhXd9ba0-PnqZm8Y#PPP1,M1

http://books.google.com/books?q=the+economics+of+reproductive+rights&ots=kxB6jqG9_l&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=legacy

http://aaupnet.org/news/bfu/reprorights/list.html

By the way, incidentally having worked in a nation where abortion was ilegal... it is now becoming legal, it always struck me as interesting that MOST...no scratch that, ALL my patients who tried a back alley abortionist leading to all kinds of health problems, including death, were poor and could not afford to go across the border to get one.

Care to explain to me why NONE of those women was a member of the elites?

It's pretty obvious why you didn't see any rich women: they had other alternatives. Now, let me help you with a little logic: that provides precisely zero evidence that the elite want abortion illegal as a form of economic control over the poor. And none of your first three links are helpful on that point either.

What would help your case would be if you could point to some actual examples of the rich pushing the view you ascribe to them, if not publicly, then private advocacy that was somehow uncovered.

:hippie:

research will show to you that indeed it is an economic issue at its core.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

AND THOSE BOOKS are full of data on this.

I'm not asking of reams of research. I'm asking for one piece of evidence for the claim that the elite want abortion outlawed as a way of economically controlling the poor. That should be pretty easy. The 1% elite to whom you refer are still 3 million people in this nation. If that idea is held and pursued by even a small fraction of that 3 million, it will at some point leak out. And there will be evidence of some who are thinking that and advocating that. Evidence for that doesn't require reams of social and historical data. It just requires something relevant to the claim. In fact, pointing to reams of sociological data shows some confusion about what would constitute evidence for that claim.

So, yes, we're at an impasse.

:hippie:

that is all I can do..

have a good day

twenty five years as workers?

One reason for that is precisely that we have a bunch of useful idiots among workers, who believe the crap the RNC is selling

As to those in the one percenters who are on your side... yes they do exist, few and far between

And perhaps a DLC candidate will pull and FDR and betray his class... these words were used in the 1930s about FDR... I just don't expect it

Read a little on the Friedman school and its goals... may I recomend a book? Not Das Kapital... but Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein.

Confessions of an Economic Hitman will also illuminate a lot of this for you and WHY you should start thinking in this way... which is very uncomfortable for most americans... hooray to the power of propaganda.