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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:40 AM
Original message
Mother arrested for telling her 12+16 yr old sons about sexual experiences from her past
Earlier in the week, there was a debate on this very blog about abstinence-only education -- whether it's effective (a new study said not, some commenters disagreed), whether schools should discourage sex among teens but incorporate it into a larger program of sex education, and so forth. Some of the people writing in said that the schools are no place for sexually explicit discussions, and that they should happen at home. Well, when they happen at home, people get arrested.

That's right: Amy J. Smalley, of Pardeeville, Wisconsin, had charged filed against her for telling her two sons, 12 and 16, about sexual experiences from her past; she "also allegedly described performing oral sex and also showed the two a sex toy." One of her sons felt the discussion was inappropriate and turned her in to authorities. Smalley has been in trouble before: in 2006 she was arrested for shoplifting a small gold ring valued at $8.99. What a dangerous criminal. But her thievery aside, Smalley's arrest raises some interesting issues. If kids can't be taught about sex explicitly at school and can't be taught at home, where can they learn?

SOURCE: http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2007/11/09/sexual-education-continued-not-in-school-not-at-home/



Then from the Huffington Post, Erin Kotecki Vest wonders if she would be arrested in Wisconsin for teaching her children about sex:


I suppose if I were not blogging these things, I'd be talking about them. Outloud. To friends. To family. To anyone who would listen. This is life. I don't hide. I would tell stories of my life to a room full of friends and talk about sex to a gaggle of girlfriends. It's who I am. Anyone who knows me will tell you the way I write is the way I talk. So when it comes to discussing sex with my kids...do you think I'll censor?

I am a firm believer in answering honestly. If my daughter asks me what I do in bed...how I do it...will I answer her if I think I will get PUT IN JAIL? I'm guessing I'll be in prison before my kids turn 17 if that is the case. Of course I will make every attempt to be truthful yet age appropriate, but I can't imagine I will hold back much.

How far would I go? How graphic would I get? I would like to think I could describe oral sex, something that got the mother in question in trouble. Show my children a vibrator as part of one of my speeches? Why on earth wouldn't I if they asked? Are children capable of understanding and hearing these things in the media and public NOT allowed to know what they are, what they look like, what they do????

"Why yes, this is what they look like...it can be used for masturbation, which is perfectly normal and healthy when done in private." is exactly what I would say.

My children will be totally freaked out and embarrassed by me for about one million reasons. I can think of many worse things I will do, correction, have done, than educate them about sex.

SOURCE: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/erin-kotecki-vest/wondering-if-i-would-b_b_72348.html


My own dear mother (God bless her departed soul) would have been arrested for
the things she taught me about sex when I was 12. My father died when I was 7
so she thought it was her job to teach me about the realities of sex. I was embarrassed, but
was very glad later in life that she dispelled many of the falsities I learned
on the school playground.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh dear.

Now that's quite a fuck-up.

Reason and common sense really do seem to be collapsing, don't they?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think that what might be key here is that, apparently,
at least one of her sons didn't ask for the information and was made uncomfortable enough to turn her in.

We don't know what details she provided or how graphic she was. We may not have the full story here. It is possible that she crossed a line.

And speaking of information, where else can kids get information besides home and school? Is that a serious question? Any teen with access to the internet knows far more than I did as a teen (and maybe even now!) Not that it's always good information -- but we don't know what kind of information this mother was providing either.

The bottom line is, whatever she said made one of her sons intensely uncomfortable. His complaint was taken seriously by the authorities, and that's how it should be.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Intensely uncomfortable is one thing,
But abuse? C'mon, pull the other leg. Sure, I realize that most kids don't want to think of the parents as sexual creatures, waaaaay to much TMI. But turning in your own mom? Sorry, but that's just wrong. Get up, walk away, say "Ewww Mom, TMI" But this isn't abuse and this isn't worthy of turning your own Mom into the authorities.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. Turn the situation around then. What if this were a father
talking to his 12 year old daughter about the intimate details of HIS sex life, describing oral sex, and showing her a sex toy?

Are you still so sure that this couldn't ever be abusive?
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. It's context.
I know a man who did this. He had good intentions.

I don't remember how old my mom was when she did it, but she definitely explained about the oral sex with men on the receiving end.

To me, it really depends on the level of detail, and the intent of the parent. I think it's great to teach a sexually active boy how to please a woman. I think it's INAPPROPRIATE to teach 12 year old, but not criminal.

We all know that girls mature faster than boys. If a father is warning a daughter about boys by explaining that even though he's a decent man, he still is a man, with manly urges, needs and behaviors, then I think it's GREAT. I am convinced that no mother can explain this as well as a father. And I think that a girl who sees a father bully her date without knowing why is more likely to rebel without the explanation a father can give.

The average girl does NOT understand the depth of a boy or man's sexual urges. But if her dad tells her, she probably will have to accept it.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Yes, it's context, and there's a right way, and a wrong way.
And in this case we don't know enough details to make a judgment of whether this parent crossed the line.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
97. I was intensely uncomfortable being taught how to fish.
I mean really. Taking the life of another creature. This is one of the most UNBELIEVABLY STOOPID things I have heard of. Maybe, the school should have told him? Maybe he could have learned some things from the locker room or playground? JEEZ.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #97
124. So you're telling me that you think it's okay for an
opposite sex parent to give graphic descriptions of sex acts he or she has performed? Should there be any limits on age, gender, or how detailed the descriptions can be? Or is there nothing that a parent could say about his or her own sex practices that could be considered to violate privacy boundaries between parent and child?

If there is nothing, does that mean that sex talk that would be considered sexual harrassment in the workplace would be acceptable in the home, as long as a father was relating his sexual technique to his young daughter, rather than to his female employee?
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #124
146. As the right wing constantly drills in our collective heads..
It is up to the parents and not the schools. See what happens when a parent does it. Jail. Hey, I wasn't there, and honestly, if I were 10 and my grandmother (who raised me) described a blowjob, I would probably have thrown up. Would have been horrified? You bet your ass. Would I have trotted down to the nearest police station? Nope.
I can't imagine a parent describing S&M, maybe a big ol' whip in the ass, nipple clamps and a ball gag either, but it isn't up to me.
On second thought, maybe if a parent told their child about sex, there would be a fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer STD's.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. maybe this is indicative of poor parenting skills and it all goes beyond
this one event and that is why it went so far. maybe....
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #146
156. Of course parents should talk to their kids about sex as a normal and positive
part of life, and about contraception and disease protection. But there's a pretty clear line between providing objective information and describing in graphic detail the mechanics of your own sexual practices. We don't know enough about this case to know whether the mother seriously crossed the line, but we do know that the mother made the son uncomfortable enough to tell the counselor. And, depending on what the sons testified, it is possible that the mother went too far. What if there was a real case of ongoing verbal sexual abuse and no one would listen to the kid? Would that have been a better situation?
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. Beyond stupid: Arrest for making your child "uncomfortable".
I assume you are merely a troublemaker trying to provoke a response. There you go.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Not merely uncomfortable. Whatever she told the son made him
uncomfortable enough to report what was considered abuse.

Do you think a father should be able to discuss intimate details of his sexual behavior, including descriptions of oral sex, and show his 12 year old daughter a sex toy? You don't think such a parent could ever cross the line?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. It's weird...
I was abused, and if I had decided to report my parents (never did, cowed by abuse)... I doubt it would be over a talk.

I'm not saying there's not possibly any abusive background to the story, only that it's odd that if there is, that the kid chose this talk to rat her out on. Get me?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Apparently she had brought them in for counselling due to
unexplained behavior issues, and this came up then.

We'll never know what really happened, because she pleaded no contest in order, she said, to avoid for her sons the embarrassment of having to testify at trial.

I'm not saying that she was guilty, but in describing her own sexual behaviors, it is possible that she crossed the line. I'm surprised that some people can't envision any circumstances where parental sex talk could be inappropriate or even harmful.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Oh yeah, I can definitely see how that would be over the line...
no need to go into detail about what you've personally done. That's just weird.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. To play devil's advocate
which is more abusive to a child? TMI or telling the kid that if they masturbate they will burn in hell?

I think a lot of parents f*** up their kids for life by giving them a negative attitude towards all sexual acts.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. i think the extreme on both sides, equally fuck up children, i agree
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 11:52 AM by seabeyond
be it the fundamentalist that decry sexuality as evil and a sin and the opposite side that gives children adult sexuality.

i am a firm believer in allowing children to explore their sexuality in an age appropriate manner more intuned to nature.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
117. In extremely fundamentalist families there often is a lot of blurring of boundaries
I know it's a movie, but Piper Laurie playing the mother in Carrie exemplified it. They do more than just instill shame in their kids (bad enough) but many people who grew up in extremely religious environments report being sexually abused.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
66. I'm also thinking there is more to this story.
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 12:38 PM by quantessd
Most likely, the boys, age 12 and 16, have a grudge against their mom for whatever reason.
Edit: Not to say that the mother is legitimately at fault for anything. But, IMO, her sons think their mother is to blame for everything.
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JBear Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
101. I am surprised that...
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 05:02 PM by JBear
so many people have decided that she is guilty...and keep in mind she was charged with a FELONY!

This is absurd on so many levels!

One - we are talking about a mother explaining about sex to her boys. There is a lot that kids of 12 "know" or at least think they do and they talk about it to other 12 year olds. It is a mother's duty to at least let them learn from a non-partner (yes, father to son would have been better - but what if dad was gay?? *gasp* *sarcasm*)

Two - We don't know what she said. Period!

Three - I can not imagine what she could say that would be felonious. Now, if she was someone who believed in teaching by participation, that would be an entirely different story. I don't even think that her giving demo with the toy would really cross that line.

I guess they would rather everyone learn about sex out on the street. That way everyone can share in the STDs, unwanted pregnancies and public shame that kept sex repressed for so many years.

:bounce:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. NOBODY has decided she is guilty. it is MORE discussing the issue
and why assume, there cannot be an over the line for a mother talking about sex with her 12 year old boy. we are talking the situation, ALL understanding there is not nearly the information needed on over the line behavior or not

that isnt even talking about or considering the charges pressed and their appropriateness or not

simply the action, ... and are we going to decide a mother cannot go over a line

seems to me like more people are first deciding the mother was well in her rights and could say and do about anything teaching her son sex, as long as, by gosh, it was not a fundamentalist view of sex is bad

repeat

NO ONE IS SAYING THIS WOMAN IS GUILTY. no one knows.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #101
122. I haven't seen a single person say she is guilty.
All I've seen are people who say she can't be guilty as opposed to those who say that it's a possibility because we don't have enough information. We don't have access to the report from the counselor or to the boys or mother's statements. Nobody here knows whether she crossed a line.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
98. Maybe he was getting turned on.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #98
123. And depending on what she was saying to him as she "described"
performing oral sex, and what she did when she pulled out the sex toy, this could be a normal reaction on the boy's part.

And the mother might have needed to learn that this was inappropriate. As it was, the sentence has required that she receive counseling, which probably isn't a bad idea.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
39. They should get all their information from Fox News
where every woman is a nubile and scantily-clad college girl who loves to party.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
74. Yeah, that sounds more like sex abuse than sex ed.
It's one thing to discuss reproduction and the anatomical aspects of sex, along with the emotional ramifications. But I fail to see how what she was telling her sons was supposed to edify them in any way.

Verbal sex abuse, where you have a parent or other trusted adult making constant sexually suggestive comments to a child, can be every bit as harmful as the physical kind.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. The personalization of it -- the mother talking about her own behaviors --
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 03:32 PM by pnwmom
is what makes it sound potentially abusive.

A lot has changed from when I was growing up, but with most kids, the last thing in the world that they want to think about is their parent's "doing it."
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SalmonChantedEvening Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. You have the right to remain Ignorant
Sadly, that may be the only right we'll be left with.

Jeez this is insane.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. yes, it is insane
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. When I read this this
morning my first reaction was "there has to be something more than this. I am missing something."
So I told my wife (She is a 7th grade teacher and she has had to deal with issues of abuse and such, and she sides first with the child - although "sides" isn't exactly the word I mean), and I mentioned that I must be missing something, because on the face of it, it looks crazy.

Her response - "you just go on thinking that. That is what they want you to think. Welcome to the new improved America." We have a 14 year old. We raised three other older sons ( 27, 27 and 23). Ever had a 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, year-old who is getting into trouble mad at you? From what I could infer, and I could be wrong, she sent her kids to counseling because they were starting to get into trouble. Parents who care tend to do that. I mean all parents make mistakes. Most kids I know feel uncomfortable hearing about sex from their parents. The 12 year-old reported it. All I can infer from the report is that the counselor started the process.

On the face of it, this is nuts. Well, I have to wake my 14 year old up so he can shower and get to school. I hope he isn't uncomfortable with that.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. Another possible point of view -- since we'll never know the facts.
A parent with a personality disorder -- for example, narcissism -- would be quite capable of violating her child's psychological and even physical boundaries. That's what narcissists do in various ways with their children -- the children are at risk for parental abuse of all kinds because the parent does not view the child as a separate human being with his or her own feelings. Such a parent wouldn't usually seek help for herself, but she would bring in her children to be "fixed."

This is the kind of thing that child psychologists and pediatricians have been trained to be aware of.

Hopefully whatever this mother did didn't constitute actual abuse. We'll never know any more than we do now because she pleaded no contest to a lesser charge. But people should be aware that there is such a thing as verbal sexual abuse, and it is possible for a parent to cross the line, especially when discussing his or her own personal sexual behaviors.
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
91. I was talking to my wife later, and
she and I both agreed that this - at least as we saw it in the paper - really is a rock and a hard place. You are absolutely right that verbal sexual abuse not only exists but has major repercussions. My wife as a teacher has had to deal with this, and while she and her colleagues go carefully, they start first from the position that a child must be protected.

I would have assumed that a court case would have been a later step, after determining whether it was part of a pattern or even an individual case of abuse, a case of bad-parental sex ed in action ( which is one of the reasons that I support sex ed class), or a child flexing his/ her power ( even if without thinking of consequences). And if the first, a court case only after/ if counseling was refused.

I think that what we find most frustrating is that under the current cultural conditions ( read George Bush, abstinence ed, and the wonderful world of stressed social services), is that if it was a case of personality disorder, there seems to be no help being offered to either the child ( who is still in the situation) or the parent. Conversely, if it is a situation that simply was terribly mishandled ( for whatever reason), the only option being a court case or a guilty plea is absurd.

Thanks for the reminder of all of the points of view and possiblities. Actually, it is a rough case for what little info we have. Something, though, is wrong somewhere in all of this.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
128. Well, there may be a flicker of hope here.
Perhaps the charges were an effort to force the mother into counseling. (She had her sons in, but that's not the same thing.) Her probation requires her to receive counseling, so if she has boundary issues, hopefully these will be addressed and her sons protected.

It would be a terrible thing to be falsely accused of something like this, and I feel for her if she was. On the other hand, if she did cross the line into abuse, then her sons need to be protected. This is one of those areas where the state needs to tread very carefully -- but the alternative, ignoring possible parental abuse -- isn't a good option. What kind of message would it send to the boy if he actually made a plea for help and nobody would listen?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. seems to me a few posters suggest it is ok cause it is a boy.
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 08:08 PM by seabeyond
that really bothers me
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #129
139. Me, too. It's sad. n/t
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. That is INSANE!! -- A Felony?? - Original newspaper article here
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 06:52 AM by Breeze54
:wtf:

Alleged explicit sex discussion gets mom probation

http://www.wiscnews.com/pdr/news/255942


"This whole thing's been like a nightmare for me and I can't understand it," she said.

A Pardeeville mother accepted a plea agreement on charges she had a sexually explicit
discussion with her two sons, even while she maintained she did nothing wrong and that
she didn't understand why she was charged.

Amy J. Smalley, 36, said in court Thursday that she accepted the plea agreement in part
because she thought it would be in the best interest of her sons, ages 12 and 16, in that
it would spare them from testifying in court.

"I think this is what I'm going to have to do to make everyone happy," she said.

According to the charges filed against her, Smalley last year told her sons about several
sexual experiences she had. She also allegedly described performing oral sex and also showed
the two a sex toy.

"That is what I'm being charged with, but that is not what I did," Smalley said.

"I believe I'm not guilty."

Smalley's attorneys unsuccessfully argued in court in July that the charges should be dismissed
as the discussions should be protected as free speech between a parent and her children in the
vein of sexual education.

More...


Gheesh!! Then I suppose I should've been arrested when I had a talk with my then
16 1/2 yr old second oldest son about std's and AIDS and I gave him some condoms!!
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. where can they learn?
Well, there are a number of Republican politicians that would love to teach them.

:evilgrin:

-Hoot
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. New Republic Motto: "Ignorance is Bliss - with a Happy Ending"
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
9. Let me state first of all that it's scary that she was arrested for this
and secondly that it creeps me out that she described HERSELF performing oral sex to her sons. jeez, I managed to be explicit and matter of fact about sex with my son without interjecting my own specific sexual experiences.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. Exactly -- it was in personalizing this that she MAY have crossed the line.
Since she pleaded no contest to a lesser charge, whether she did will never be known.
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. My 13YO son took a Health class at the local JC-I told teacher to hold nothing back-she didn't
The timing was right as 13 Y olds are very curious and not that I was uncomfortable teaching him anything, but sometimes kids will listen better to a teacher than to their own parent(s). He is 19 now and fully understands his role in birth control and STDs. He said that he had to dispell a great many myths that his friends had about sex.

I felt the material presented at the college level was much more appropiate than what they were teaching at the high school.

To think that I or the teacher could have been arrested is absolutely ludicrious.

What next, will they arrest teens for talking about discussing sex?
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
153. Hmmmm. Would it be appropriate for a father to "Show and Tell" his 13-yr-old daughter the same info?
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 11:00 PM by WinkyDink
Do kids really need to be taught "Cosmo" or "FM" techniques?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
11. She terrified them with tmi
because 12-16 year olds never think about sex.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
34. I know, every boy under 20
should be exclusively focused 100% on God and their schoolwork, just like how it was before Bill Clinton became president.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
12. There has to be more to this.
This woman, to me, anyway, obviously doesn't have a very healthy relationship with whichever son turned her in to the authorities.

Kids don't do that unless something is seriously screwed up. I think she crossed the line and may have done other inappropriate things in the past which led to her being arrested.

I mean, think about it. We all know families which we think are one step away from being visited by CPS, yet nothing happens. Why? Because the kids don't talk. Kids don't want to get their parents in trouble.

Something smells here.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I have to admit that I am thinking the same thing - I wonder if the mother
had at some time in past made sexual overtures to one of her sons or one of their friends. Explicit talk about sex with teens who are asking questions or who are ready to listen is one thing - a demonstration of what mom might be interested in doing to one of her sons or their friends is another.

On the other hand, if dad is an outrageous fundie or the son attends a school with fundie teachers, then what may have been the mother's perfectly appropriate conversation could be misconstrued and reported. Children in Germany were invited to tell on Mom & Dad if they said anti-Nazi remarks, children in China during the cultural revolution were similarly invited to tell on Mom & Dad if they made anti-communist remarks.

Children who attend Jesus Camp would be ready to rat out Mom or Dad who make "anti-Christian" remarks.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. There is no mention of a father or teachers in this case.
One article said the mother had brought the sons in for counselling due to unnamed behavior issues. Presumably that counsellor felt the need to go to authorities.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. The counsellor is a mandatory reporter. If the children
reported anything out of the ordinary, s/he is mandated by law to report it.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Right. And that is the law because parents and others
have been known to abuse children.

It doesn't mean that this mother did. But I'm surprised that people are dismissing the possibility out of hand.

If an employer described his personal sexual activities with various women to a female employee, and brought out a sex toy, wouldn't that be considered sexual harassment? If a father did the same with his young daughter, wouldn't that raise some eyebrows?

And yet, with a mother and her sons, some people can't accept the possibility of there having been inappropriate behavior.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. My original post in this thread indicated that I believe there is
more to this story. A mother with a healthy relationship with her children can explain sex to them without getting reported to CPS. I suspect something nefarious was going on. Perhaps she didn't actually abuse them, but perhaps there was evidence of neglect or mis judgment on her part which finally did her in.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. my boys and i, but especially my 12 yr old and i talk about all kinds of
things. all the time. big interest with him now. because i am not shy talking about sex and i am blunt and straight forward, it didnt take him long to get past the shy for him to be comfortable and trusting in receiving the info. still.... he sets the pace.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. "He sets the pace." That's the key right there.
We don't know what happened in the situation described here, but it is pretty clear that at least one of the sons felt overwhelmed by the information.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #52
161. That is an excellent point.
Your son sets the pace. You give him no more than he wants or can handle.
I do believe that something smells in this whole story.
Today's 16 year old kids know way more about sex than they want us to know. The thing is they may know how things "work" but most truthfully do not have the mental capacity to understand sex.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. a parent wants to teach children about sex, so shows them a porn movie?
i have heard that kind of parenting too. i have one that had porn calendars up with 7 yr old daughter, 5 adn 3 yr old sons saying teaching the "beauty" of women.

i say more to it too
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
114. Well you and I both know how that would be received here:
The parent would be lauded as a hero of free speech and artistic expression.

Anyone who said a word against it would be castigated as anti-sex and accused of trying to shut down the entire sex industry and deprive all those free-spirited and empowered performers of their excellent career opportunity.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. i am thinking. it is really a show it all at the youngest of years or nothin
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 06:12 PM by seabeyond
doesnt seem to be a whole lot of middle of the road thinking here. just allowing the kid to find and walk his own sexual journey. damn, i appreciate my life in the 70's being allowed to do this myself without everyone being a part of my sexual exploration
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. That's for sure. Who would have wanted to receive
sex schooling from their parents? Birth control and reproduction information, great. Joy of Sex type stuff -- that's what books are for! (Or experimenting with your own partner, not your parent!)
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
70. That's what I'm thinking, as well...
A troubled family history. Over the line sex talk. Troubled kids. All a recipe for disaster.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
13. It's pretty gross to hear about your mom giving a BJ, but illegal?
That seems pretty creepy, too.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
41. Who says it was a BJ?
:evilgrin:
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. Why can't things like this happen to me? I want to retire today!
Man, I even have a plan on how I'd spend my billions from the lawsuit...
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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Well, you SHOULD get whacked on the knuckles with a ruler for
personally being responsible for Liebermann. ;-) :P

That was a great thread, btw.
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Oh great, now you reminded me of my youthful days in Sunday School.
Oh, those nuns!
:shudder:
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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. .
;-) :hi:
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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. .
;-) :hi:
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. EDIT....bad prosecution....
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 08:45 AM by LeftHander
UU Church leaders in Wisconsin were prosecuted by Waukesha Country for teaching teens about sex. IT went to the State Supreme court and the landmark ruling told the county that they had no business telling churches what they could teach.

The class is basically a human sexuality course. And teaches young people that sex is part of our humanity. It included photographs and descriptions of a wide range of human sexuality.

This conviction should be overturned.

This is very messed up.

Parents can't teach kids ALL about sex but they can learn all about killing people from TV and no one cares about that.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. It's already over and she's on probation now
and has to go to court ordered counseling.

See my post upthread.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
75. No. it's still open.
http://tinyurl.com/29fzol
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. Maybe that hasn't gotten updated yet?
Because the media is saying that she pleaded no contest to a reduced charge, a misdemeanor, and received probation.

Perhaps the case will stay "open" until the probation is over.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
94. "they can learn all about killing people from TV "
That was my first thought too.

What if dad were relating in graphic gory detail his war experiences? Nobody would give it a second thought.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. i know a father who showed his daughter his penis
cause he thought she should know what she was going to get into

who is to know

i wont point the finger at the woman, but i wont say there is not something there. i will say, that if the child turned mother in, there may have been something unappropriate in the feel of the discussion
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. I agree that we have too few facts to know what really happened,
but the possibility of abuse should not be dismissed out of hand.

If this had been a father describing intimate details of his sexual behavior to his 12 year old daughter, and showing her a sex toy, would people be so quick to minimize the possibility of this being wrong?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. i thought that was a very good point of yours, because it is a mom, BUT
if it were a dad. shut about everyone up (including me). the reality..... both genders can be screwed up in parenting.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Both genders can be screwed up PERIOD.
:silly:
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JBear Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
105. I'm sorry...
I just don't get the hang up with the sex toy! From the previous poster's statement where dad shows his own - that would be creepy to me. Dad showing daughter a toy (remember not all families have body acceptance as a mantra) is MUCH lower key.

It was a piece of silicone! Get over it!

:bounce:
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #105
140. That was just part of it. The other part was whatever the mother
was saying as she described her sexual behavior with various partners. Maybe what she said was limited and no big deal. Or maybe she really crossed the line. From the few facts that are out there, there's no way to know.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #26
44. That's our thing about nudity, though
We are quite puritanical about it in our culture, especially males.

Maybe the father or mother should have showed the girl photos from Playgirl or something. Not a bad idea really - some girls might postpone getting involved with sex if they possessed that sort of knowledge.





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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. we have never had a thing about nudity in our house since kids were babies
so it is not a big deal in my house. i am not going to call my boys into my bedroom, spread my legs and say see, this is what a woman looks like.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Exactly. As the mother of sons,
I know they would think I had just gone stark raving mad.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. and then some, like perverted. the father had a hard on and had the child
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 12:10 PM by seabeyond
touch it, to feel it. it was night. he was probably drunk and she ran and hid in the bathroom, afraid. but reall he says, was just teaching her what a man looks like. again nudity not being a thing, and she had brothers and nephews, when they were young, they were all running around the pool naked. penis's werent new to her.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Any father who asks a child to touch him there has crossed the line
into child molestation. Or any mother.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. One would hope you wouldn't do THAT
I kind of guess most Americans though, draw the line at mere nudity. Which is fine, who wants to be nude in front of their kids? But maybe a statue, or photos or drawing. Kids are always going to be interested in things just for their own sake, that's the great thing about kids. They don't sexualize everything - well, until they are teens.

I think what that father did was wrong, but the idea behind doesn't sound bad - let them see pictures or drawings so they don't romanticize it all too much and think twice about whether they're ready for it.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. we had an art history book and national geographics when i was a kid
today.... nudity is way available. shit, when boys were 5 and 7 we had a trucker kind enough to put a porno picture of a woman with her legs spread on his passenger window for all who drove past to see. i am not worried about my boys or any girl doing without seeing a naked body at some point in their youth.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. there is more to the story n/t
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
38. What was she arrested for, though?
What law says she can't do/say that?

I imagine it is filed under some sort of child endangerment, and she would have good arguments that it is not child endangerment and that it is a violation of the First Amendment. Even if we don't agree with her way of doing it, they're her kids.

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. She pleaded no contest to a lesser charge in exchange for probation,
so we'll never know more than we do now.

They ARE her kids -- but that doesn't entitle her or any other parent to actually abuse them. I'm not saying she did, since we don't know the facts. But there are lines that parents can't cross, even with their own children.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. I imagine most parents wouldn't tell kids about their own experiences
And most of us shudder at the thought. Yet if she wasn't doing anything and was just telling them, then I think she has the right to do that though most of us wouldn't agree. There are differences of opinion about what kids should know and when. But I know there are lines that can be crossed, but when it comes to telling them things, it would be hard to legislate without severely impacting our freedom of speech.

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. In the workplace, freedom of speech wouldn't allow a boss
to describe his intimate sex life or to show a sex toy to his uncomfortable female employee.

Are you so sure it would be okay for a father to do this with his twelve year old daughter? On the grounds of freedom of speech?
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JBear Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #63
107. We are not talking about a workplace! n/t
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #107
159. So you think an adult in a workplace is more vulnerable to verbal abuse
than a child at home?
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Shlomo Yehudim Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
45. Heres the kicker
I was taught about sex by my mother at age 6.
I am not out having sex by learning about it. Sex Education is important. Teens are going to do it, whether the parent allows it or not. If parents think they have 1 ounce of control over it, I hate to shatter that reality. It is by NOT educating Teens about Sex that the real danger lies. With the onslaught of S.T.D's and other such things, it is folly to not educate our youth, and dare I say our adults. When we have 30 year olds thinking two condoms is far more effective than one, we have some serious issues. But the far right hold tightly to their outdated beliefs, even as the ships going down.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Welcome to DU, Shlomo Yehudim!
I answered my children's questions at early ages, too, but had to discuss things again when they were older, because they're not ready for the same information at 6 that they are when they're older.

On the other hand, I don't know any parents who thought that teaching their kids about sex means describing in detail the parent's own sexual technique and behavior, including demonstrations with a sex toy.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. It's the age old idea that if someone doesn't know about a thing
they can't possibly discover it on their own. What a big fallacy. And it might be that kids would be less likely to get into early sexual activity if they DID know about it. That's what these types of idiots never even consider. They think they can mold or shape their child's brain by deciding what goes into it.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
64. Here is an update.
Amy J. Smalley, 36, said in court Thursday that she accepted the plea agreement in part because she thought it would be in the best interest of her sons, ages 12 and 16, in that it would spare them from testifying in court.

"I think this is what I'm going to have to do to make everyone happy," she said.

According to the charges filed against her, Smalley last year told her sons about several sexual experiences she had. She also allegedly described performing oral sex and also showed the two a sex toy.

"That is what I'm being charged with, but that is not what I did," Smalley said. "I believe I'm not guilty."


http://www.wiscnews.com/pdr/news/255942
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
65. Good thing these laws weren't around when I was a kid. My dad was a
sex therapist and our home was filled with graphic (but not sleazy) books about sex, sexual dysfunction and the like. "The joy of sex" was as easy for me to reach on the bookshelf as a child as "the joy of cooking" was. My parents didn't speak about it with us directly very often, though we overheard conversations. It was just viewed as a normal, healthy part of life for consenting adults in our home. Something- like parenting- that we wouldn't have to deal with for a long time but it wouldn't hurt us to know about. I was never promiscuous and never had any hang ups about it, so I think that allowing children to know that such things occur between loving, consenting adults is fine. It's the kids from very repressive homes that seem to become the porn obsessed adults.

Last time I was in Amsterdam I was fairly shocked at a few posters I saw in public areas which depicted graphic sex acts, but school children walked past them entirely unfazed-and Holland's teen pregnancy rate is MUCH lower than ours!
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
83. I don't think your situation was comparable to this one.
Nothing you mention sounds invasive -- it was up to you to take the book off the shelf, or to listen in on your parents' conversations.
What this mother did that was different --and potentially abusive-- was describe her personal sexual behaviors to her sons. Depending on the kind of detail she went into, and what she was showing with the sex toy, it is possible that she crossed the line.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
118. While I agree that talking about her personal experiences was in bad taste
it's hardly something that she should be ARRESTED over. I dare to say that what I would find in the home bookshelf was far more graphic than seeing a sex toy (which I did find in my parent's bed stand) or hearing an act described in detail. What's next, arresting parents if their children wander into the bedroom unannounced and catch mom and dad in the act? It's America's shame and fixation with sex which has turned so many people into deviants,imho, and if we just treated sex as a normal part of life that occurs naturally between consenting adults and not something to be ashamed of or to promote as some sort of "score" we'd have far fewer problems to begin with.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. So you don't think that there is anything the mother
could have said that would have constituted verbal sexual abuse?

Does this apply to fathers with daughters, too? And without any age limitations?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
67. STFU mom!
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
68. If her own son turned her in to authorities?
Perhaps what she did was not only inappropriate, but criminally abusive.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Perhaps her sons have a grudge against their mother for other reasons?
At 12 and 16, they're at that "I hate my mom" age.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Oh sure...
I hated my mom a lot of times when I was between 12 and 16. But never enough to turn her into the authorities. Perhaps if they hate her that much, there is actually a reason for it?

I just have a difficult time believing that there isn't much more to the story....... (And perhaps I am being willfully blind to the injustice here. It's not that I don't believe that our law enforcement can be over-reactive. They certainly can! It's more about the child turning his mother in for me.)
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #72
88. Maybe there's an injustice here. Or maybe some people
are in denial about the possibility of a parent being able to harm her child in this way.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #69
84. And sometimes kids have a reason for that feeling, unfortunately.
Again, we'll never know enough about this particular case to make an informed judgment one way or another. But verbal sexual abuse is possible and does happen, even between parents and their own children.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. I don't think it said he "turned her in"
One of the kids was having some problems so the mom had him talk to a counselor, and this event came up during the discussion. Counselors have to report if they have suspicions of abuse so the kid might not have had any idea that this was going to happen.

At least that's my understanding of what happened.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. From the OP:
"One of her sons felt the discussion was inappropriate and turned her in to authorities. " From that, I assumed that her son had a hand in her arrest. Obviously, the blog isn't that clear. But, from what is stated, he did turn her into authorities.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. What I read was in the update in post #64
But I see I didn't read that very well either:

Smalley said the charges were filed after she brought her sons to counseling in an attempt to help them from getting into trouble. One of her sons told authorities he did not think the discussion was appropriate.

So he did say he thought it was inappropriate, but "authorities" could be a counselor or something. It isn't specific enough for me to feel confident that it's the police or anything like that. Or maybe the counselor called the police and then the son said he didn't think it was appropriate?

I'd have to literally sit on the jury and hear specifically what happened to know what's going on here. It could really go either way IMO.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #79
95. Me too!
Defnitely not enough information, which is why I think jumping on the "police state" bandwagon is unfair, as is summarily dismissing the mother as a monster.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
71. Not enough information
I'd have to sit on the jury and hear exactly what happened to be able to tell what's going on here.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #71
85. No one will ever sit on a jury because the mother pleaded no contest
to a reduced charge.

You're right, though, there isn't nearly enough information to know whether what happened was really abusive or not.
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Lautremont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #85
149. All we can do is sit and wonder, repeatedly, over and over, whether or not she "crossed the line."
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #149
160. I'm just saying that it's possible the mother went too far -- to counter
the assertions being made here that free speech and parental authority means a parent can say anything without being abusive.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
73. The only thing my mother told me was that girls would try to trick me into giving them babies

Its been a long road to recovery.

o__0
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. LOL! She was giving you a compliment.
Your mom thinks highly of your genetic content if she thinks other women would covet it.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
81. The police should have used better discretion
Kids don't have the right to not be embarrassed. The mom might have been slightly inappropriate, but there is nothing criminal in her actions, nor is there anything that comes close to my definition of sexual abuse.

She talked in about sex in a way that embarrassed her sons. Big deal. I hope they realize there aren't any foster homes for teenagers, and that they will go to a shelter or residential facility. That sucks a lot more than mom showing you what a dildo is.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. Columbia County Assistant District Attorney Crystal Long is to blame.
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 03:52 PM by PeaceNikki
Not the cops here. Or the DA - Jane Kohlwey.

She's the nutcase who charged this at all - let alone as a felony.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. And you can confirm she's a "nutcase" without reading any report
from any psychologist or any interview from the boys?

Is that because you don't believe there is such a thing as verbal sexual abuse? Or do you know something about this case that hasn't reached the media?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. or... because of our war on fundamentalism, or because it is sexuality and boys
as opposed to this happening with a girl and her father. or simple total lack of trust of the police. i can see any of the reasons. i find the thread and responses as interesting as the situation itself.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. I've noticed that very often
people here (and probably everywhere) seem to be unable to empathize with a child's point of view. And, in the eyes of many, it is usually the child, not the adult, that must be in the wrong.

It is interesting.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. Without knowing the details that none of us can know,
how can you say there was nothing abusive in her actions?

Only the barest outlines of the case have been reported. But for you to be right, then verbal sex abuse would be practically impossible.

Would you feel the same if a father had discussed in detail his sex practices with various women, including oral sex, to his 12 year old daughter and showed her a sex toy?

How about if a boss did the same thing with his female employee?
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
93. After turning her in to police, they sat down and watched a good war movie.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
96. This is disturbing on so many levels
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 04:20 PM by dotcosm
Not the least of which are the posts of many here!

Regarding the son "turning in" his mom:

1) let's say for the sake of argument that the kid *did* actually literally turn his mom in -- like that's completely unheard of?? Kids get pissed at parents for a lot of reasons (and sometimes for no reason at all!) and kids are capable of all kinds of irrational behavior. However, I doubt this is what happened.

More likely, he was talking to a counselor, and perhaps the counselor was asking him what was bothering him at home. And maybe the kid said: "my mom -- she drives me crazy" and the counselor says, "uh huh, go on, what does she do that you don't like?" "Well," the kid replies, "last week she was so gross!! She was telling me and bro about some sick sex stuff she did when she was younger, it was GROSS!!!"

"Did it make you uncomfortable?"

"Hell yeah it did!"

BINGO -- call is made to authorities.

It makes me sick to think that we parents have to walk such a fragile line ALL THE FUCKIN' time!

What if their mom had posted her sexual experiences to a blog somewhere, and what if they had read it there? Would the guilt be the same?

2) the people who keep bringing up either a) a father with a daughter and b) an employer with an employee and trying to draw a parallel -- JUST STOP! Just because you want situations to be similar does not mean they actually are, ok??
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. reading about the counselor and whether or not the kid called authority
or talking to counselor does make a difference. i did not see that connection until way low in the thread. and even though i can exactly see what you say happen when talking to the counselor, i also had to tell myself many kids that experience bad things in their family dont pick up the phone and call cps. (that is what i thought this kid did, and for me that gives a little more foundation. though info far from being complete). many times things DO come out in counseling. really bad things that you would hope a kid would pick up the phone. so i cant necessarily dismiss as your scenario anymore than assume the counselor behaved in good faith

BUT...

why are you saying it is bullshit to parallel a 12 girl and her father and he pulling out a sex toy, describing blow jobs and a mother and her 12 yr old son talking about blow jobs pulling out a toy?
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Because male and female are different
I know that many people still refuse to believe it, but it's just a simple fact.

Teen boys are not the same as teen girls.

Fathers are not the same as mothers.

Single fathers with daughters are not the same dynamic as single mothers with sons.

It's just a fact, and we can't overlay every situation and extrapolate.

Of course, that's also just my strongly held opinion, but opinion nonetheless.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. you are so full of it if you suggest you can play with a boys sexuality
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 05:07 PM by seabeyond
as a manipulative adult without repercussion to the boy, .... simply because he is all mighty male. so very sad.

not to mention females in a weak and powerless position
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. That's not what I'm suggesting
All I'm saying is that you cannot compare the situations because they are not comparable.

I'm not making any qualitative statements AT ALL, of one vs. the other.

Just saying they can not be compared.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #106
111. ah, well... i have a 12 yr old son and am a mom, and i know to have his trust
in talking these issues so that he will freely converse with me, it takes a hell of a lot more than pulling out a toy and telling him how i go down on his father.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. You're lucky that your son will talk to you about this
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 05:44 PM by dotcosm
I also am a mom with a 13-year-old and OMG, if I even *try* to talk about sex with him, he starts squirming and getting totally freaked out! But I try to not let that deter me (because obviously that's his goal in doing that) because I know that he's at a vulnerable age and that I just have to plow on through some of these discussions, come hell or high water (or the police at the door for that matter!)

Now granted, I would never get explicit about my own situation EVER, but that's just me. And I would never feel comfortable enough to do any sort of demos, either! (god, I can't believe I have to actually *state* that, lol)

Now, that having been said.... I do have HBO at home, and it does have some seriously *adult* content, and while I do employ the "locks" system, the fact is that sometimes he's able to get around it and watch something that I'd never feel comfortable about him watching. But that's life, and I'm no prude.

God help me if he tells his buddies at school what he watched on HBO at home when mom was at the store!

How is that different I wonder?

Edit to say: When I say you're "lucky" I should have said "fortunate" because there's no luck involved!
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #113
134. What you're doing is very different than what this mother was said to have done.
She was describing with some detail her own sexual practices, and showing him a sex toy.

If your son watches some adult stuff when you're not at home, big deal. But having his own mother in his face describing her oral sex technique could be an abusive situation, the same as if a father did it to his daughter.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #106
133. They are indeed comparable. You seem to have a blind spot in this area.
Girls are not the only ones who are vulnerable to sexual abuse of all kinds. Boys are, too.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #96
130. I'm one of those people, so answer me, please.
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 08:09 PM by pnwmom
Why wouldn't this be exactly the same as a father with a daughter?
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #130
142. I already did answer that
it's here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2270404&mesg_id=2274326
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #142
157. I suppose that's a response. But it's not an explanation.
:shrug:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
104. Describing HERSELF performing oral sex?? Showing her 12-year-old a sex toy??
I'm sorry, that's just really poor judgement. I don't know about ABUSIVE, but I do think that she was inappropriate.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. Hell yeah it's poor judgement, and inappropriate!
But illegal???

As many upthread have pointed out, I'd say that indoctinating kids with certain religious dogma is ALSO piss poor judgement and inapproproate, but yet, there you go.

I imagine we could all draw up a list of inappropriate behaviors that OTHERS are guilty of, couldn't we?
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Yeah, dumb that she was arrested...
but she should definitely get some counseling...god, that poor 12-year-old...having mental images of his mom performing oral sex for the rest of his life...ewwwww
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. eeeeewwww is soooo right. n/t
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #109
132. Because of the charges, she was forced into counseling.
Counseling is required in her probation.

That might have been why the charges were brought in the first place.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
110. So, where's the line?
Where's the line between education and abuse, information and TMI?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. I don't have kids, but I imagine a good rule of thumb might be
To talk about something like oral sex only if the child initiated a question about it. Not that all conversations must be initiated by the child, basic information about anatomy and understanding about what constitutes appropriate touching probably need to be started by the parent.

But a parent giving an unsolicited account of her experience with specific sex acts and showing a sex toy? WTF?!? Squicks me out just thinking about it. :puke:

Pardon me if I'm being presumptious, I know that you have kids but I was just thinking back to my own childhood and what I'd have felt comfortable with.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #115
136. My adult daughter was laughing about this last year.
She said she'd rather think about even her grandmother having sex than her parents. Yuk!

I have a two teenage sons and they would be completely grossed out by what this woman did -- at the very least. Children today aren't that different, not in the essentials.
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Lautremont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #136
152. We don't know all the information, but it's possible your daughter crossed the line.
You speak as though verbal sexual abuse of elderly people is not real. But it is. You seem to have a blind spot in this area. However, we'll never know the whole truth.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #152
154. Anyone else reading your post here is going to wonder what the heck
you're talking about.

:shrug:
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
119. The prosecution went too far, but that is still fucking nasty.
No kid ever needs to hear about their mother blowing some guy.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #119
137. Or, as someone above mentioned,
the other way around.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
125. I don't think my mom knows about oral sex.
She's 80. :shrug:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. lol lol ya right. but then it is a cozy feeling thinkin your mom doesnt, huh n/t
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 08:01 PM by seabeyond
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #125
141. Don't bet on it. I know quite a few women in their 80s and 90s

and they know about oral sex. My mother would be 90 if she were still living and I remember going to a neighbor's with her when I was 18, for a morning get-together with coffee and coffeecake. Nice middle-clas s kaffeklatsch, right?

Those women, who ranged in age from mid-20s to 60s, talked as much about sex as we girls did in the dorm! What a surprise! Now I'm the youngest or next to youngest in several groups of women but am no longer surprised at what women of my mother's generation will say, or the jokes they'll tell.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
127. Well, it never occured to me that my past sex life would be a good teaching tool...
for my girls. I figured a few books, some reading, discussion and so on worked best.

To each her own, I suppose. Not sure if she should be arrested for it, though. Seems a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
131. A parent's responsibility
to teach their kids about sex ends before you get to a How-to session.

Basic mechanics, physiology, and how babies are made, sure.

If you want the kid to learn about techniques or variations, teach them the Dewey Decimal system and send them to the library.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #131
138. They'll laugh in your face if you send them there.
They already have the "internets."
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #138
144. True enough
but I think I made my point and my son made it to adulthood sane and whole. And he knows how to find a book in the library.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #144
148. ya... my kid would take you up on it. he read all about
Edited on Tue Nov-13-07 10:05 PM by seabeyond
anatomy, reproductive system male and female, puberity and god know what else well before his 8th bday, lol lol. he was reading real boys (an adult book on raising boys) at 8. he gets most his info from reading mass materials, then he goes out for conversation to get opinion.
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liberal hypnotist Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
135. Pardeeville, Wisconsin must be a scary place
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
143. I'm curious - what if this were about drugs (pot) instead of sex?
How would it differ and why?
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
145. Sounds Like Mom Went Way Overboard
I'm not surprised the children reported her. After all, don't we also teach them to report any adult who makes you feel uncomfortable that way?

You know what they say about not giving out more information than is requested. You can always stop at any point and say, "If you want to know more, ask me and I'll try to help."

I've had these talks several times now and always tried to stop in a comfort zone (mine and theirs).

Illustrating what Dad and I do, or anecdotes from my past, or having a sex toy show (Mommy, what's that for? What are you doing with that?) is a bit much. Is there any privacy boundary for some of these people? I don't think anyone is entitled to know exactly what is private to me, much less my children. And frankly, it's even dicier and suspect sharing this information with a child of the opposite sex.

I mean, picture a father trying to educate a daughter without being accused?
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
150. Yet, nudists raise children that turn out just fine seeing nudity every day...
... including their nude parents and siblings.

Funny that.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #150
155. But I bet the vast majority have clothes on when they're talking to their
kids about sex, and the vast majority do not go into detail describing the mechanics of their own sex lives with their opposite-sex children.
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #155
162. Incorrect.
You should learn more about nudists.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #150
163. What about her descriptions of her sexual encounters and oral sex
and the use of a sex toy in her talks with them?
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #163
164. What about it?
You act as though kids who have grown up seeing EVERYTHING from day 1, would somehow be suddenly shocked by hearing about sex and seeing a vibrator.

Do you even know what a nudist is?
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #164
165. I don't believe it's people who have sex in front of their kids
their kids have seen naked bodies but hopefully not oral sex.
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #165
166. I suggest you read up on the philosophy of nudism.
They do not treat the sexual parts of the body ANY differently than the non-sexual parts of the body.

To a nudist, teaching a child about their funny bone in their elbow and how it tingles if you whack it, is identical to teaching them about their orgasms and how the body reacts to them.

Its the rest of society that treats "naughty bits" as if they are taboo. So ridiculous.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #166
167. they are merely part of the body, having nothing to do with sex. they are not humping
Edited on Wed Nov-14-07 09:44 AM by seabeyond
each other in front of their children. then it is no longer about the freedom of nudity, it is all together different. and just because one is not a part of the nuditist community does not mean we are shamed in our body. my children were allowed the freedom of nudity every summer until they decided to wear clothes. we have never hidden our body in this house. if a kid comes up on us changing, sittin on a toilet, has a question while i am showering, not an issue. we dont make a deal of it, and it doesnt become a deal.

many people, not only the nudists, dont go around with an attitude of naughty and taboo.

i was raised on a farm. my children knew the basic from the beginning of curiosity.

children know all from day one? i personally do not embrace teaching our littlest the adult world. they are children and should receive age appropriate info. if you kids or any child at a young age is learning adult sexuality from day one, a parent ISN'T doing their job. something else is going on. kids don't want the info.
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #167
168. The "kids" in this article are 12 and 16. Hardly "little ones".
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #168
169. seems to me you were talking nudists and their kids and starting from day one. n/t
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #169
170. I was typing lazy. My fault.
I accidentally conflated the two points. My bad.

Teaching little kids about "private parts" should be no big deal.
Teaching teenagers about sexual acts and sex toys should be no big deal.

This case is ludicrous.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #170
171. I think it might well be
It depends on the specifics. If the kids were curious and the mom told them to satisfy that curiosity, then I agree completely. But I can see the potential for discussion of oral sex and sex toys being inappropriate. As I said elsewhere, I'd have to sit on the jury and hear specifically what was going on to say 100%. And there won't be a jury because she wisely decided not to put her kid through a trial about it.

The most likely scenario in my opinion is that the kid's counselor was asking something like "what has your mother done to upset you" which led to a discussion about the sex talk, and the counselor said, "Do you think the talk was inappropriate" and he said something like, "Uh, yeah, I guess" and the counselor called the police.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #170
172. there is something to be said here. being a female i am well versed on the feel
of sexual predator. i do not know if you are male or female, but.... there is an absolute feel. a woman knows it. a child knows it. it makes us feel "uncomfortable". if this woman was going beyond the explanation of sex, (and i am not into giving such a detail version of sexual act to 12 yr old. i have a 12 yr old son and KNOW how uncomfortable that alone would make him), then it is NOT ok. as much as we like to believe an adult, let alone a parent would not do that, it happens. more than what we like to believe.

we DON'T know what happened here. to believe something was off is up in the air as much as to naively believe the mother was in the mere role of educating her children on sex.

we don't have a clue about this womans ability as a parent, what happened in this situation, what was said and done, and the womans intent. and to pretend otherwise is useless
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #172
175. Yes, seabeyond. And when a child, or a teen, expresses a need for help --
well, that is why we have laws requiring counselors to report such things. Too many people want to dismiss the possibility of abuse out of hand, as we saw even here among DUers, over and over. But children have the right to be taken seriously, and to be protected.

We won't ever know what exactly happened in this case. Maybe the mother was unfairly blamed, and if that happened, I feel for her. But if she did behave inappropriately to her children, then the counseling she is now required to receive, as part of her probation, is a good idea.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #166
173. What you are suggesting, depending on how it was accomplished,
could verge on child molestation. I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of nudists abuse their children.
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
151. Well, she made a mistake, for sure....
but arresting her seems a bit overboard. How about some parenting classes?

Since when did failures in parenting become criminal? :shrug:

The jails will be full! :silly:
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #151
158. The end result is they offered, and she accepted,
a plea bargain. She pleaded no contest to a misdemeanor and agreed to go for counseling.
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #158
174. That makes more sense. Lots of parents could
use a little counseling. She definitely went overboard, but I think a felony is absurd.
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