Why do we think a driver's license is some sort of privelege?

I personally think it is an infringement on personal freedom. And I resent the fact that I have to have one while illegal immigrants are free to drive all around the country without having a license or carrying insurance. Are these people so fucking dumb that they believe no one who lacks a license is going to drive? I think the whole argumkent is stupid. From an authoritarian republican point of view they should be requiring immigrants to get a drivers license, not denying them one.

If they come here legally, then they can take a driving course and get a license. Thats why they say "getting a license is a prevlage, one must earn it". In the situation I just explained, by coming legally and take the appropriate cources, they'v earned it.

are continually asked to earn whatever bullshit "privilege" that our generous citizenry feels they don't deserve.

Really. It's hilarious.

And if I ever break down on the road, I'm calling my friend Sergio, not you. :hi:

Why dont they put that hard working effort to coming here legally? And as illegals, they cant get insurance. I sure wouldn't want an uninsured driver plowing into my vehicle.

Since you seem so sure that people who are literally starving in their own country have the resources ($1000+ for starters) to go through the US immigration process, why don't you lay it out step-by-step for me?

I'll tell the crickets to be polite while I wait.

Research NAFTA, corn subsidies, the damming of the Colorado River, and get back to me.

And then tell someone who's starving that they have to continue starving because they were born on the wrong side of an arbitrary line.

They break our laws coming here illegally, they dont deserve a drivers license. We already have enough trouble on how easy it is for shitty drivers to get a DL, we dont need anymore of that crap. This stuffs gotta end, but no one is enforcing our borders!

By the way, excellent satire on your part. That was satire, right?

have contributed to increased poverty in Mexico and other Latin American countries, Time and again those countries are told that if they want IMF money they must privatize various governmental services.

Think before you post next time.

Mexico is rich in natural resources. There's no good reason for people there to be so poor they need to emigrate to improve their lot. Darfur, Bangladesh, maybe. But Mexico isn't Darfur.

Human migration is a natural impulse that has occurred all throughout history. Insisting people stay in the borders they were born in just doesn't work. Human nature doesn't allow for it.

If this country were to fall apart and there were Canadians or Mexicans willing to hire us, we'd go there. Let's not kid ourselves, if we were in the same position, we'd do the same thing.

The U.S. used to be so generous, and I hate seeing it become so stingy. It's still the richest nation in the world, and the birthrate is low due to that.

It isn't falling apart. It's wealth is not being fairly distributed, not even by market forces. The rich in Mexico send their poor here. Our borders are a pressure valve that lets Mexico avoid solving its own problems. We need to stop hiring Mexican workers, taking away their reason to come here, thus forcing Mexico to start dealing with its problems.

Just because they're brown and Hispanic doesn't make them Mexican anymore than being white and from North America makes me Canadian.

to describe too many Americans today.

runs in Mexico, the US government makes sure they don't win. Last time out, BushCo even sent down speech writers and other "consultants" and it looks like they bribed the high court into tanking the recount.

Mexico DOES need to take action. But that action is difficult to take when the whole force of the US government is funding and facilitating more or less constant attacks on their democracy. There's a lot of $ at stake here. And, apparently it's enough for the Corporati to mind those elections and make sure the status quo isn't disrupted.

So, it's not that simple, "Mexico needs to do something". Mexico likely elected a progressive reformer last time but the US government made sure he wasn't seated. :shrug:

Mexico (and most of Latin America) has had to deal with American destabilization of their democracies. For example, the last time out, BushCo helped their @ssholes STEAL the election from the progressive.

That's problem #1. If our government stopped f#cking with their elections, guess what? People would stay home where they want to be.

Second, the immigration system is broken. It's nearly impossible to come here legally, just to work or to stay. Stir in the horrible effects of NAFTA on Mexico (Thanks, Bill!) and small business people there going broke -- it's a perfect storm.

The whole situation is rigged to rip off workers here AND there. So, the solution isn't to criminalize the least powerful people in this whole cluster f3ck. And the whole time they are being hated, these workers are a net gain to our economy and have just about the lowest crime rate of any other demographic.

But, the haters will tell otherwise. That's how Republicans get votes.

/ack

I have a close friend that married a mexican gal six years ago and she still has not been allowed to gain legal status. Their American baby is now almost six years old and can't come to America with it's mother..

If your definition of "hard work" is standing around on the street corner all day, or shooting our cops,or getting drunk at night and crashing in our streets, I guess you're right.

(I know, not all of them do that - that was a hasty generalization just like pretending they are all the "hardest working" members of our society.)

That much I know. If they don't get chosen to pick strawberries or help shingle a house or something, they have nowhere else to go.

crime rate than just about any other group. For another, the money these people send back to their families is something like the third largest contributor to the Mexican economy. You can't stand around all day and get that result.

I have worked around undocumented workers for most of my adult life. Yes, they are the hardest working people I've ever met.

I would not classify the ones I see as hard-working.

I'm sure there are many I don't see who ARE hard-working, but I won't make a blanket statement about all of them, because they can no more be lumped into a single group than can anyone else.

Illegals make up a disproportionately large percentage of the jail population here. They didn't get there by being hard-working.

I've encountered so much racism from who I have considered to be good progressive people. Sometimes I think too many don't understand or don't want to understand their racism.

There are illegal immigrants in gangs. Period.

Many gangs are made up almost entirely of illegal immigrants. Period.

Whether illegal immigrants as a whole commit more crimes per capita or fewer crimes per capita than any other group in the US does not change the two facts above. To say otherwise indicates that you are out of touch with reality.

Even if illegal immigrants commit crimes at 1/2 the rate of other citizens (which is not the case), the fact remains that if they weren't here, those crimes would not be committed.

***DISCLAIMER***

I am FOR immigration, and I am FOR overhauling our laws to allow the workers we want or need into the country. I am only against legitimizing people who have already shown no respect for our laws simply by being here.

Is utter racist crap. Maybe in *your* special reality, undocumented workers are a criminal class but in shared reality, they are not. The statement was not "there are undocumented workers in gangs" and there is a difference even if it is lost on you.

And, fyi, the fastest growing gangs in California, for example, ARE NOT Latino gangs.

If people would spend as much time vilifying the US government for their ILLEGAL interventions in Latin America, maybe "the immigration problem" could be resolved. How much more disrespectful of sovereign law can you be to look the other way when foreign heads of state are deposed, assassinated, when elections are stolen, when proxy wars are funded with your tax dollars? That pretty much makes you a collaborator, doesn't it?

So, lecture me on how "disrespectful" of our laws undocumented workers are. But have the intellectual honesty to do it in context.

And many of them are made up of illegal immigrants who cross back and forth between the US and Mexico at will, or who have been arrested and deported before. Even our sanctuary-city police chief Gascon admits that.

That is reality. It does not represent all illegal immigrants, but the fact remains that those particular illegals are not "the hardest working people in America." Your blanket statement that all illegals are the hardest working people is simply not true. They are just people, like the rest of us. Some are lazy, some are hard-working, some are honest, some are criminals.

You seem to have them all on pedestals as saints. I see them all as law-breakers. The reality is probably somewhere in between. We're all going to have to change our views a little bit if anything is to be done about the situation.

No I didn't. So dont lable me a fuckin racist cause I'm not! I have many friend of other races so dont even try that bullshit.

"standing around on the street corner all day, or shooting our cops,or getting drunk at night and crashing in our streets"

You forgot to include molesting our kids, spreading AIDS, having too many babies, raping our white women, not being any good at math and science, and diluting our poor aryan blood.

:sarcasm:

where I live who stand around with nothing to do all day.

BTW, one of my first jobs was at a plant nursery and back then there were a lot of Puerto Ricans working. They worked just as hard as I did. True, they're not 'illegals' but you should probably get my drift.

How about stop trying to sound the ultra-liberal all the time. Statements like "the hardest working people" do NOT help you make the case.

I live in NY and know that this issue needs to be resolved. But your phrasing and attitude suck on this matter just as much as those who don't want to address this.

Your post was rife with racism, and you probably don't even realize it.



Really? Have you checked each one's immigration status personally, or are you just assuming they're "illegal" because they're Hispanic?



I'm failing to see the link between Puerto Ricans and ILLEGALZZZ, other than the fact that both are brown people from a region of the world that ignorant racist Americans universally refer to as "Mexico" when talking about illegal immigration.



How about not making racist, generalized statements about Hispanic people?

*cue the indignant "how dare you call me a racist just because I made some incredibly racist remarks!!!111"*

But notice that my position is perceived as an "act". Holy cow. In the SoCal fires, people died because they were afraid to evacuate and so, be visible enough to be deported. Their jobs were *that* important to them.

Some of these posts leave me speechless and that's probably just as well.

I feel honored that you and I are part of the same secret club.
:rofl:

:hug:

:rofl:

Skin color?

lol

Why don't the Rule of Law folks show more outrage towards people who blow through crosswalks?

and who drive HAVE TO BE the best drivers around. Because they can't afford to get stopped for anything. Not for a brake light out, not for tags, not for nada.

So, you're here working mostly for peanuts and likely more than forty hours a week and every second that you are behind the wheel, you are exposing your whole life -- and possibly your family's -- to ruin.

So, you're hyper vigilant all the time. And in no case do you have any resort to law enforcement or to the law. This is an incredibly dangerous situation and who gets blamed? Workers. Good old "blame the victim".

Having a whole under class in this country is horrible for public health and safety. But the solution is not to blame or penalize the very people our own government drove out of their homes in the first place.

from the SoCal fire "thieves". They'd just as soon see them die as look at them.

It is a privilege, one has to earn it, and drive carefully.

And you're right. They should be required to get one validly if they wish to drive; to hand them out for free is stupid.

Being legal immigrants helps too. :D

These people need to drive to work and they do.

Thats if they come here legally in the first place. The thought of sharing the roads with illegals scares me, I hear alot of bad stories about them causing horrible accidents.

Lou Dobbs didn't make brown people the jewel in his tiara were they causing "Horrible accidents " as well but you didn't have some group to blame? Do you actually think you aren't sharing the road with non licensed drivers now?

driving while Under the Influence doesn't scare you more? Seriously, what's to fear from people who simply must drive in order to reach their jobs every day?

If what you hear is true, about "them causing horrible accidents", would you prefer being involved in a collision with someone who has a valid driver's license or someone who does not? Sharing the roads with people who have passed a driver's exam seems a good way to alleviate those fears of yours, wouldn't you say?

But consider this, illegals do not have insurance. Do you know what happens to a person who's hit by an uninsured driver?

and go out of their way to obey our rules of the road and not break any laws. It is illegal in this state to own a car that's not insured, if it's on the road.

Yes, I sure do know how devastating it is to be in a wreck with uninsured drivers. Most of the accidents around here these days involve suspended licenses, driving with no insurance (cause they can't get it), and DUIs but the perpetrators are invariably perfectly legal citizens, who don't have any qualms about continuing to use their vehicles once their license has been revoked. If the wreck doesn't kill them, they will often run from the scene or precipitate a police chase, further endangering everyone, rather than be caught once again.

There is also a growing number of folk who honestly just cannot make ends meet and insurance will be the first expense to be eliminated...they are the most defensive drivers on the road, limit time spent driving to the bare necessity, and live in constant fear of being pulled over and slapped with an outrageous ticket, which could render them homeless. You wouldn't want to hear how many I know who have found themselves unable to afford insurance - two income families, hard workers, law-abiding, but simply cannot see over their stacks of monthly bills.

But as I said originally, of the undocumented workers I'm acquainted with, I know of none who violate our state's laws on licensing, registration, or insurance...it's simply too risky, as they are usually the first to see flashing lights in their rearviews.

Congratulations. (If you even get your own post.)

And to give them visas (especially if they are from a neighboring country?)

How do you "earn" it. Prove you know how to drive? Would you rather have a native born U.S. drunk driver on the road or a sober undocumented alien?

It is not a "privilege." A "privilege" implies that the government has the power to take it away or deny it even if you can drive, but just because they don't like you. If I can pass the driver's test, I have a RIGHT to the license.

And it can only be taken away if I engage in harmful behavior, like persistant drunk driving. To say it is a privilege implies the government can take it away because they deem that I am a Democrat and that liberals make bad drivers.

"Yes, let them get one and it will have and rfid chip in it"

I wonder how it would spin with the NRA crowd?

That is all.

It is a right if you pass the damned driver's test.

Driver's licenses are issues by states, they don't have to care if their residents are legal immigrants or not. It's part of the separation of powers. Immigration is the fed's problem, as the constitution says, if they fail to enforce the federal laws, the states don't have to help them.

The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is irrational immigration laws. If the states want the immigrants to be identified and to have licenses, that should be their prerogative.

People put their heads in the sand. Undocumented immigrants are people, and they're here. It is no use pretending they're not. And they're only trying to make a living. There are many worse things a person can do than just violate another country's irrational and insane immigration laws. Like start a war against a country that never had any chance of threatening yours.

I was recently in the U.K and they clearly had lots of immigrants. A country that small, an island, can surely "protect its borders." Immigrants are needed in Western societies; only the U.S. tries to pretend they are not needed but lets them in and to stay and then turns its nose up at them.

but we'd prefer if they came here legally and in a safe, orderly manner.

That is not too much to ask.

But instead of targeting our screwed up immigration laws, Lou Dobbs worshipers demonize undocumented workers.

and employers...and the Republicans they pay for in Congress...would see that the laws need to change. As long as those employment needs are being met outside the law, there's no need to change the law.

They would come in a legal and orderly manner if they could. We just make it impossible.

And using the DL to try to enforce these laws by attrition is even more unrealistic.

I don't get the big deal people have with it anyway. If someone knows how to drive, I don't care if they are on the road whether they are undocumented or not. I'd be a lot more worried about drunken drivers and negligent drivers. Lou Dobbs and his ilk are so obsessed they fail to see that the issue is relatively unimportant. We just need better laws.

I was recently in Britain and that country has a lot of immigrants, too. They have much better control of their borders I would think, since they are relatively small and an island to boot. So immigrants must be necessary to Western economies, where the birthrate is down. Yet the British don't seem to articulate a "crisis." They must have it under reasonable control by having reasonable laws that don't have to be enforced so often that a huge pool of people illegally there develops. This country just lets Lou Dobbs pull their chains, and Lou Dobbs has some sort of psychological or emotional problem that requires that the undocumented immigrants take the blame for every ill society has ever had.

The Feds have screwed this up, not the workers who are daily demonized.

Our laws are just irrational. If we expect to enforce them, our heads are in the sand. The ICE would be the biggest government agency there is. They'd be after us all the time, not only to prove our own status but someone else's. Even so, they couldn't keep up with it. The problem with immigration laws is enforcement. Even if you can do it, it means deportation, and just taking someone back to Mexico doesn't mean they can't come back again.

I don't know where all these people get the idea that you have a "right" to drive. I'd like to see some backing for that mistaken notion.

an International Driver's License from their home country before they come here.

Then they wouldn't have to bother with state licenses.

I think this is a non-issue. Much ado about nothing.

I had an IDL for the two years I lived in Argentina. Nothing to it, and it cost $15 or something like that.

IDLs. I don't know if it is accurate.

Some states do, some states don't. And a permanent license has to be applied for (obviously tourists can rent a car, for instance, but someone who is living here has to obtain a license before they can legally drive or obtain insurance.)

There is an attempt to use the DL as a national ID card and therefore use the lack thereof as a way of getting undocumented immigrants to leave voluntarily because they can't do anything, as everything as anything comes to require a DL.

And the weird thing is that no one notices that no matter how many of those laws are made that are to try to get undocumented immigrants to leave by attrition, just because they are blocked every where they turn, never does seem to work. After the employer sanctions laws of 1986, where you have to prove your right to be in the U.S. in order to get a job, the number of undocuments immigrants increased.

It is just unrealistic dreaming to assume that undocumented immigrants will all go home because they can't get a DL. In theory they can't even get a job. Now you have cities trying to make it against the law to rent it to them (deputizing landlords, along with employers, to enforce these laws) - yet somehow, one imagines, it's still not going to work. It's all too much for the government to enforce and the border and the country are just too big.

I have been thinking too. It seem like this driver's license thing is just another one of those red herrings to keep people all stirred up. x(

Edit: Spelling

Was there ANY requirement to be able to read street and highway signs in Argentina? If there was a test, was the govt. willing to give you the test in your native tongue at no cost to you?

since I was in Argentina at the time. She just went to AAA, paid the $15, filled out a form, and they mailed me the license a couple months later.

I guess the whole theory behind the IDL is that you already HAVE a license in your home country, so you already know how to drive. (Allegedly.)

Had I tried to get an Argentine driver's license instead--no, there most definitely would NOT have been any provisions made for me to take the test in English. In Argentina, like most countries in the world, you have to learn the official language.

I'm not opposed to issuing drivers licenses to illegal immigrants, I object to politicians acting like its some sort of gift from us to them. Of course if they are going to drive cars they should be subject to the same rules as any other driver. And they should be required to carry insurance as well.

So back to my original point - why do pundits and politicians act as though the granting of a drivers license to an illegal immigrant is some sort of magnanimous act. To my mind it is a public safety necessity.

to drive and are insured!

when public servants make smart public policy.
I would hope that we could consider these public safety measures to just be a matter of logic and common good, not to mention saving health care costs to the state.

That said, it seems that it follows that maximizing the number of insured and licensed motorists would be serve all drivers best.

Adults who have any access to a car and need to get somewhere are going to drive. We should protect ourselves.

Immigrants living here, illegally or undocumented, should be given a first step to citizenship. They should be given licenses and be subject to the same requirements and rights to drive as any other citizen. They shouldn't drive with fear of being arrested or deported, that won't get us anywhere.

If someone is not supposed to be here in this country and is here illegally, where is the logic that a government entity should grant that person a legal document establishing their legitimacy?

Snarf....

Fire our Border Patrol and let anyone come and go as they please?

I don't have a problem with a discussion about immigration policy. I do have a problem with rightist non-sequitors.

"What part of illegal blah blah blah" sounds like something I'd hear on the Limbaugh show.

Either this country has a say in separating the wheat from the sheaf or we don't. If we don't, then why bother with the expense of the Border Patrol? Why do we as citizens need passports to get back in? Or is that freedom to come & go when ever, how ever just for illegals?

It can be taken away for any number of reasons; mostly if you break the law or are unsafe on the roads. In fact, I think we do not take the privilege of driving seriously enough. Most driver's-ed classes are jokes. We allow people to talk on the phone (not in every state, true) while behind the wheel. It is far too difficult to take away someone's license if they are unsafe.

What makes you think they would get a driver's license even if it was offered? If I am here illegally, I am sure I don't want to give some government office my address.

You, too, could drive around without a license or insurance. And if you get pulled over, you, too, will pay the price.

to work. Encourage those who want to drive to do so with a drivers license, because it ensures that road safety is tested. What I do care about, are those people we know are coming into this country to learn to fly and cause us trouble. Those are the people I don't want to be allowed in.

a DL if it were offered?

From all I've heard over the years, anyone who is in the US illegally won't sign anything or give any information for fear of being caught and deported. Why does everyone think they'd rush out to get a DL? That would be putting the identity finger smack dab on their head!

The other excuse I keep hearing is "then they can buy insurance." Are you all crazy? Certainly not all, but MANY don't make enough $$ to even ThINK about buying a car, let alone insurance on it!

went to the General Store in her little town and bought a license for a quarter. That was it. She still drives, and has never in her life been involved in an accident or received one ticket.

People act like passing a test and showing "proper" ID makes someone a safe driver. Images of teenagers driving mom & dad's car with their friends keep coming to mind--scary. Taking a test does not make someone a safer driver, it simply means that they complied with the authorities. And to those worried about uninsured drivers, well, if people don't have the means to pay for insurance--regardless of their citizenship status--but need to drive, they will drive no matter what.

drivers' license for a quarter, just by asking for one.

I don't know when testing was introduced, but it was after the 1930s, because my father bought his first car around 1932 without ever having had a driving lesson. He learned by trial and error.

Why can't politicians understand that?

See, I can use capital letters too. Of course, it doesn't make my point (such as it is) more valid, it just makes me louder!!!!11111

because there are obviously so many that are, in my mind, "wrong". Immigration laws, drug laws, taxation laws, laws for food vendors, laws regarding second hand smoke, laws regarding drinking alcohol (someone can die for their country, but can't have a beer?), laws almost to the point demanding NO BELLY LINT or jail for you.

Legislators legislate. It's what they do, but I have never believed they do it well, or that the system makes any sense. I'm even more of a throwback than a throwback of my generation, if that makes any sense.

Sense. Someone once wrote about common sense.

We can discuss the issues surrounding the influx of Central American immigrants into this country, but it sort of shits on the entire conversation to simply refer to the almighty Law as if that's the end of the argument. It reminds me of fundies who justify their positions as "well the Bible says ____, therefore it is so."

on edit: and since the OP is full of misspelled words on a Saturday night, I'd be willing to bet this is nothing more than a drunken rant.

with lawful elections in Latin America or that we have mounted proxy wars or that we have plain old had progressive leaders killed there because they wouldn't play ball with the corporations.

I guess we only care about people breaking our own laws, not the laws of other sovereign nations.

If there was justice in this world, every undocumented worker would get not only a driver's license but a Cadillac to drive home in and an assurance that our locusts would be locked out of their country.

Should people who break the immigration laws be treated differently?

Real or not, they pay taxes into a system that they'll never benefit from. And I don't think the landscapers around my apartment complex are involved in credit card fraud.

How many more laws do they need to break before it starts to bother you?

You can't see the difference between using a false ssn to apply for credit card and using a false ssn just to get a job?

If someone other than myself used my SSN and got a job, then I'm on the hook for income taxes for that income.

That is a problem.

Do you know of a case where the IRS came after someone who's ssn was used by an illegal immigrant to get a job?

It was a horror story. They had to prove to the IRS that it wasn't them and took over a year to clear up, after being fully audited. The IRS isn't quick to believe someone that it wasn't their income.

And they found this out after they filed their income taxes, they were due a refund and were sent a letter stating that they owned over $3000 to the IRS.

While in the end they didn't have to pay, they did go through the hassle of dealing with the IRS for over a year because of a stolen SSN.

I've also read other stories in the paper of where this has happened. It is a big deal if someone uses your SSN to get a job.

That is definitely problematic.

Perhaps the answer is that they are provided with amnesty so that they can get jobs legitimately.

It's really easy to check a SSN. Where I work, I've personally seen the HR person call in a SSN and verify it. It's not hard. For instance, we had a guy who's number came back hinky. But it just took a phone call to clear it up. It had happened to him personally before and he's an American citizen born here. Businesses need to be cracked down on.

This whole DL debacle is a farce really. But people using fake or stolen SSN gets under my skin and no sympathy.

I haven't decided exactly how I feel about an "amnesty" for illegal immigrants.

I speak with illegals every week in my job, when I go to employers and talk to their employees about benefits.

Those guys tell me, straight up, "Mi número no es bueno." They've used someone else's number to get the job. If the SSA ever tracks down the number and sends a letter to the employer saying that the name and # don't match, the "undocumented" worker simply produces another stolen number, or he leaves that employer and goes to work someplace else.

And as the other poster mentioned, it can and does cause serious headaches, and grief for the person whose real number is being used.

So, no. I don't see the difference. Do you have any idea what hell it is to deal with the IRS when someone has been using your SSN "to get a job", and in the process poured unearned money into one's SS account? Don't tell me this doesn't hurt anyone. It's just more dishonesty, and people who do it should be arrested and prosecuted.

Thankfully I've never been a victim of identity theft, but I know what the hassle is like. The IRS isn't quick to believe that you didn't make that money.

is using your SSN is a pain in the ass. Try telling the IRS that somehow you suddenly have twice the income you had the year before according to your SS contributions, but only listed half of that amount on your 1040.

Victimless crime my ass!!

Got that? A privilege NOT a right?

My own drivers license is a bloody damned nuisance and a badge of my failure as a steward of the earth's natural environment. Anyone who drives should have to suffer the same indignity of standing at line at the DMV and getting their mugshot and thumbprint taken like any common criminal. Driving a car is a crime, not a right.

and operate a 1000-pound machine in public without verification of skills and ability.

I think anybody who demonstrates that ability should be given a licence - regardless of citizenship status. I mean, driving is pretty much the same wherever you go. You just need to adapt to variations in the rules, which isn't so tough. Except for in Italy. Those people are nuts.

if they get stopped and don't have a license, they'll get arrested.

Because it is, under the law, a privilege, not a right.

My son is fighting to get his driver's license back. His got taken away for non-payment of child support.

Except that he DID pay his child support. All the way up until the mother of the child was finally arrested for child abuse, and he took his child from her. While she was in jail, he moved to another state. He got a lawyer and won full custody of the child. The original state continued to try to collect child support for the jailed mother even while my son had custody. When he went to renew his license, there was a hold on it, pending payment of support for the 3 years he's already had custody.

He's been in contact with them regularly, from the very beginning. He has faxed custody papers, etc.. They ignored those contacts, and that information, and continued to demand payment. When they put the hold on his license, he got a lawyer. For a "nice" price. It's still been 6 months since the hold. They are "reviewing" the situation, and will someday decide whether he can have a driver's license again.

Meanwhile, he has a job to get to and a child to support. And a lawyer to pay.

than highway safety. How exactly does not paying child support affect one's skill level as a driver?

And, in this case, it was taken away from him for not paying child support to a child abuser who did not have custody of the child during the disputed time period. In other words, for child support that is NOT ACTUALLY OWED.

for cops. I drove on a expired license once for about six months because we were poor. It was horrible and I'm lucky I didn't plow into anyone while I was checking the rearview mirror.

Your loss.

that has to be earned.

One has to be of a certain age. One has to follow specific restrictions based on age, in many states, eyesight correction, and ability to drive specific vehicles like a motorcycle.

I am forbidden by law to drive an interstate commercial truck or a bus. It is a privilege granted to people who meet requirements that my medical condition makes me unable to fulfill.

If you abuse the privilege - get too many points on your license for speeding, drive drunk, get convicted of reckless endangerment while driving, etc. you lose it. Because it is NOT A RIGHT.

You have chosen to comply with the law.

A driver's license has little and nothing to do with one's ability to drive or the granting of the much ballyhooed "privilege" to operate a private motor vehicle. If it were there would be much more comprehensive testing, training and re-certification. It would be more like holding a pilot's certificate.

The plain fact is a driver's license is your government ID card. If it was about your ability to drive they wouldn't give a shit about your current address, country of birth or what you look like; only your ability to take the wagon sideways around the skid pad without knocking over any cones.

Same goes for having license plates on your car. It's about being ID'd wherever you go. My pilot's license doesn't have my picture on it, or my address.

Funny that I have to go through all this licensing process to get back and forth to work, using this supposed deadly device--a motor vehicle--but if I want a firearm, all I have to do pretty much is wander into my local Wal-Mart.

Edit: typos

Show me where the Constitution gives the right to drive?

Both are dangerous pieces of equipment that require some skill to operate.

In fact he Constitution doesn't grant ANY rights. The Constitution details how the government will function and through the BoR limits the POWER of government to take away the rights you have simply by virtue of being born.

I think the right to travel freely is implicit in the First and Fourth amendments.

does not imply means.

But we are conflating the expertise required to operate a particular type of conveyance and the proof thereof with the possession of what is essentially an ID card. That is the point.

Though, not a right to a driver's license.

than a right or a privilege. Even if you don't own a car, you need a license. It is your identification card.

that is NOT a driver's license.

It is still an ID card and it comes from the same people who are supposed to be making sure I know what I'm doing when I stomp on the gas, not WHO I AM AND WHERE I CAME FROM.

It's an ID card, not a right, not a privilege, but a de facto REQUIREMENT.

Which is why this whole argument is silly. We act as if people who come from Mexico to find work don't know how to drive, but the REAL issue is coercing them show up at the DMV to get an ID card.

Do you think anyone is dumb enough to fall for it?

I had a friend's who's license was suspended and he still had ID. So, he'd still have ID that would allow on to a plane, etc.

edited to add: And he got around by walking, riding a bike, catching rides and paying for taxis. He also had to go on job interviews during this period, and yet he still did all that without a DL or driving a vehicle.

to some of the hijackers? It's ridiculous WHEN you are a citizen. So, yes, I have a problem issuing them to illegals who can't prove who they are, where they live etc

Plus, once you have one in this country, most everything else is available to you. It's one of the recognized documents for a social security card, which will automatically given an illegal one of the two docs he needs.

My biggest problem is voter registration. Have a license? You can then register at the DMV for voter privileges.

No licenses for illegals. Period IMHO. Flame way.

The difficulties in getting a license after 9/11 doesn't mean they have made the standards of knowing how to drive more stringent; the focus is entirely on PROVING WHO YOU ARE, not if you can safely operate a motor vehicle.

Many people, born and raised in the good ole U S of A drive their cars while not possessing a driver's license or auto insurance. A co-worker's daughter was hit from behind by such a driver a few months ago.

drunk (underage) and out at 3AM. (There is a curfew here)

They let her drive last night. :eyes:

And, oh, the drama it has created amongst her friends. I'm hiding out in GD where it's safe.

:rofl:

If she had a LICENSE, that never would have happened. Oh, wait. Never mind.

In case it's necessary: :sarcasm:

I want to say a big fuck you to all the asshole racists in this thread who think they can tell if someone is illegal by the colour of their skin. I've always been a big fan of DU and love most of the people here but I'm frankly getting tired of all the racist bullshit.

There are no Canadians, Russians, Brits, Italians or Germans who have ever driven without a license or insurance. But since they are white, it not quite so important to America's safety that they be able to answer the "are your papers in order?" question.

It shouldn't necessary but: :sarcasm:

I was also once accused of hiring undocumented workers with the icing being the wish that I would get busted and go to jail. :crazy:

Undocumented workers are natural allies of progressives. But in this horrendous climate of nationalism that is sweeping this country, that gets lost entirely.

and slapped them silly with it. :D

:)

turn lead into gold, cure ED and buy overpriced California real estate.

I think the DMV has finally dropped it's requirement to report erections lasting longer than four hours.

Or have sex in a car. That's what this is all about, don't you know...

We can't have "illegal aliens" having illegal alien sex in our God Blessed Homeland, can we?

is by checking employers and making sure everyone has an I-9. If people want to go after undocumented workers, then they need to fine people who employ them. But leave the people alone. There are many places where you need transportation just to get food. Not every place in the US has adequate public transportation. People have to drive, they have to eat, and they have to have someplace to live. Take away employment opportunities, but don't make people's lives hell and destroy families.

First...these people are "undocumented"...not "illegal aliens". They are human beings who aren't here for the food, weather or cause Americans are such nice people. They provide labor that many in this country take for granted, they end up paying retail and other taxes through their work and have benefited many of those who want to "round 'em up". Little, if anything, is ever said about those who really benefit (and exploit) these people...the companies that hire these people over American (spelt UNION) labor or use them to avoid paying benefits and taxes (now whose the real tax cheats here???) and dumping these people on the local social systems to provide medical and other services.

That said...a drivers license isn't citizenship. Never has been...never will be. While it can be used as identification, the license alone isn't a birth certificate or SSN card or other form of documentation that employers are required to see before they hire someone. However, it is a matter of public safety that those who get behind the wheel of car, no matter who, both are competent to operate a vehicle and are properly covered/identified. So its safer to have "illegals" driving unknown or unseen on our streets than it is to at least know who they are and have a way to have these people be held both responsible and accountable when they get behind a wheel?

A drivers license isn't what these people come across the border for...it's the money. Want to cut down on this "problem" then go after those who hire the undocumented workers and fine them $10,000 per worker per day...then require American corporations that operate in Mexico to offer benefits and a living wage to their employees...making it worth their while to stay in Mexico rather than to come here.

In my mind it makes sense to "document" these people -- especially it should be documented that they know how to drive a car and that they know what US traffic laws are. Isn't that how one gets a driver's license? That's how I got mine -- I had to take a written test (and I don't care how many languages the DMV prints the test in) and I had to take a driving test. I think Gov. Richardson has it right on the issue of public safety.

Beyond that, it would definitely make law enforcement sense to have photos and fingerprints on file of as many people as possible. *That's* what the wedge-issue people think is a privilege? It doesn't matter if some of them make up a name -- fingerprints don't lie.

*Some people* deserve a wedgie all right. (There, I got to use my pun.)

Hekate

sheesh...people today...:eyes:

And sometimes (I know its terrible) we play the "Who does is driving on a suspended?" game in the car. Occasionally we speculate if they have a gun/drugs as well.

Alot of people drive with no license (anyone working the misdemenor division of a court will tell you) If someone trys to get a license as an illegal immigrant = deported.

should NOT be allowed ANY privileges or benefits of life in the U.S. Sorry, but it is the "illegal" part that gets my goat!

Thats why you need to pass a test to have one. If its about rights and freedoms you get them just by being alive.

"Are these people so fucking dumb that they believe no one who lacks a license is going to drive?"

Are we so dumb to believe all people will obey the speed limit, drive only when sober, have insurance, not run red lights, not pass on the left? Yet we still regulate what is and is not ok when it comes to driving.

that someone from south of our border doesn't know how to drive. Or that they are substantially less responsible than the good folks in the USA who of course ALWAYS obey all the traffic laws and NEVER drive without insurance.

People are huge asshats, and they suck. They need to realize this...
Duckie

Especially the brown sheep from the south.

Baaaaaaaaaa.



It is a pain in the ass to be in an accident with any unlicensed driver, especially an undocumented immigrant. Anybody who can pass the test should be able to get a drivers license, and the DMV should be completely blind to immigration status, and it's records shielded from whatever fuckup agency claims to be protecting our borders.

It has always been fascist bullshit to equate driving with some sort of national identity. If our government wants us to have internal passports (Papers Please!) the might as well fucking say so.

No part of my personal identity is wrapped up in either my drivers license or my car. I don't give a shit about cars, and it is bloody irritating to me that I have to have both a car and a national identity card too.

I will be happy when this perverse car culture dies, and we Americans can remember once again what it was like to be free.

Being confined to parking lots and roads and encumbered with a national identity card that you must present to officers of the state whenever they find some slightest reason to pull you over is no kind of freedom at all.

Now I am not necessarily for letting undocumented workers get licenses, I mean they arent citizens and do not have a SS#, birth certificate etc. which are necessary when getting a license but at the same time I do see the need for it from a public safety standpoint. Still on the fence about this one.

The guy who rear-ended me got out of his car, could not speak a word of English, had no license, no ID, no registration, had his 1.5 year old kid in the passenger seat without a safety seat and gave me a cell phone number which he cut off by the time I got home.

While I was taking down his VIN number, the only and sole means to identify anyone related to the accident, a cop car drove by and I thought about flagging them down for a split second. I chose not to because I didn't want the little kid to lose her dad, her family car and to have a world of hurt trying to pay huge fines and such like. And I thought the guy just might, just might make good on the accident.

He not only got into the country illegally, which is one issue, but completly unrelated to his immigration status, he crashed into my car and I wouldn't have been at a loss if he were licensed and insured.

Now I have a $500 repair bill just so some nutjobs can feel happy about not letting the guy have car insurance because he sneaked into the country.

May the same thing happen to all the people on here who support these dumb-ass no-license campaigns of the xenophobic right wing fuckwits. Maybe then they'll change their minds.

In Bama cops stop for anything, but I agree with you, and that sucks.

... the traffic law (by following too closely and failing to stop), the child safety seat law (not only says a lot about how much he cares for his kid, but also could have got him pulled over and ticketed), the vehicle registration law, the driving without insurance law, the driving without a license law, and the immigration laws. Six at once... (AND he wasn't even honest enough to give you good contact info.)

Why would anyone doubt that all illegals are law-abiding people? :sarcasm:

they do so in violation of the law, and if caught will be cited for driving without a license or insurance.