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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:38 PM
Original message
Richardson and Green Introduce Resolution on Nooses
Legislation to Express Hanging of Nooses as Horrible Acts That Should Be Considered Criminal

In regards to the recent incidents involving nooses directed towards African-Americans, Rep. Laura Richardson (D-CA) has co-authored a resolution with Rep. Al Green of Texas (H. Res. 826) declaring "that the hanging of nooses are horrible acts and when used for the purposes of intimidation under certain circumstances, may be considered criminal acts that should be thoroughly investigated by Federal law enforcement authorities and vigorously prosecuted."

"In 1968 two things happened," asserted Congresswoman Richardson. First the Civil Rights Movement reached its critical boiling point and second a little girl raised by her mother witnessed it all...the good, the bad, and the ugly. Its 2007, nearly forty years later, and our children shouldn't have to witness the use of nooses as acts of intimidation and injustice. Today we are a country that values culture and recognizes the important contributions that countless African Americans have made. If it takes a House Resolution to get the message across that its time to move beyond this horrible symbol of racism, then let it be known that the Members of the 110th United States Congress are ready to act on it."

"It is time to condemn this symbol of injustice. A situation has arisen in our great nation which compels the United States Congress to act. In the past two months, nooses have been found in a North Carolina high school, a Home Depot in New Jersey, a Louisiana school playground, the campus of the University of Maryland, a Columbia University professor's office door and a factory in Houston, Texas. The Southern Poverty Law Center has recorded between 40 and 50 suspected hate crimes involving nooses since September. Additionally, since 2001, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has filed more than 30 lawsuits that involve the displaying of nooses in places of employment," stated Congressman Green. "Nooses are reviled by many Americans as racist symbols of lynchings that were once all too common. Only when we erase the terrible symbols of the past can we finally begin to move forward."

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm never sure what to think about laws like this
I agree that everyone would be better off if we disallowed this sort of horrible behavior, but it always offends my free speech sensibilities to make any sort of symbolic action illegal, no matter how obscene or offensive it may be.

:shrug:

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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. ...
These pictures are STILL used as trading cards from that "symbol". At these same "trading shows" they sell artifacts from those "symbolic" events. Family keepsakes such as human skulls from the "subject" carved into pianos and the "subject's" bladders made into purses.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. So your point is that we should ban it because it's really, really offensive?
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 06:04 PM by jgraz
More offensive than the Washington Redskins or the Cleveland Indians? More offensive than the Nazis marching in a Jewish suburb? More offensive than a religious freak holding a God Hates Fags sign outside AIDS victims' funerals?

None of those things have laws against them. Why does this one gesture need to be outlawed, and how does that jibe with the First Amendment?


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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Who's or what FREEDOMS are lost passing this resolutions? n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yours and mine and everyone else's
The problem comes when the next legislator decides that something is so offensive it must be banned. Perhaps next time it will be a pro-atheism sign during Christmas, or an anti-war symbol on Memorial Day. Many people are quite offended by that stuff as well.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Noose hanging is a MIRROR of America's ugliness. n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. How does that exempt it from the First Amendment?
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Which first amendment right is that? n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Hmmm...I seem to remember something about freedom of speech
Where speech is generally accepted to be any form of communication or expression.

How does this racist display fall outside the bounds of that definition? What other forms of expression do you think we should ban?
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. You are trying to make the connection to first amendment. You tell me. n/t
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Bright Eyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. If it is used to intimidate or incite violence
Then yes, it should be a crime.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. When/why else would someone WANT to hang a noose?
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 10:11 PM by DesertedRose
"...that the hanging of nooses are horrible acts and **when used for the purposes of intimidation under certain circumstances, **may be considered criminal acts that should be thoroughly investigated by Federal law enforcement authorities and vigorously prosecuted."

Sounds pretty clear to me what the parameters are...although for the life of me I can't imagine why someone who would want to hang a noose would do it WITHOUT intent to intimidate. :shrug:

Free speech doesn't give you the right to go around terrorizing people.

PS-edited to add I agree with you....just can't get my head around people who claim hanging a noose in someone's yard or in an area where said targets congregate is PROTECTED "free speech."

As offensive as the Washington Redskins mascot is, it hasn't been used to kill anyone.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Just to play devil's advocate for a second
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 06:19 AM by shadowknows69
Plenty would say the same about anti-Bush signs. That they are seditious. I even saw several instances of Bush hanging in effigy at the 2005 anti-war protest in DC. Shit the cross is enough to incite some people to violence. Also, and not to lessen the horrors our african american brothers and sisters have endured throughout our bloody history but plenty more people across the world have met the gallows unjustly because of the decrees of a church.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. This a resolution that should not have to be done
this country should not be subjected to this type of behavior. We should not have to have a law such as this. But under the bush administration you can see we are slowing deteriorating into racist, sexist and homo phobics. STOP IT..ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. This is America we should be able to go about our life and enjoy it.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. STOP increased INTOLERANCE. n/t
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Why do you want to blame it all on racism?
I used to walk my dogs south of this little town in Iowa. One day I saw a noose hanging from a railroad bridge that I usually walked under on my walk. It was thick rope and about seven feet off the ground too. I jumped up and swang from it and it held my weight. A person could actually have been killed by that contraption. Was that true of the nooses in Jena?

The noose in Iowa, however, had nothing to do with race. I never once saw a black person while walking on that road. I don't know why it was there and it was there for about a week. I sorta wondered if it was about me. Was I walking on a road where some people often made drug deals or maybe it was just thugs fooling around. I never did stop walking on that road until I moved.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Depends if it's targetted, I think.

Hanging nooses as an implicit threat of violence against a specific individual or set of individuals should be illegal, (and I think already is); the law it should be prosecuted under should be one about intimidation with threats of violence, rather than a specific anti-racism one. Hanging nooses merely as an expression of racist sentiment should be legal.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. What other group do you know that the noose have targeted? n/t
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Not quite what I mean.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 08:30 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
Displaying a noose at a Klan rally should probably be legal, unless you're naming names as you do so, although you could argue that even then it's an incitement to violence.

Hanging one on someone's porch certainly shouldn't be legal, and isn't.

There's a grey area in between, I think. But in general, I think one should err on the side of permitting threats against groups, and banning threats against individuals.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
9.  What's with the nooses , it's 2007 for crips sake
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 06:38 PM by blues90
And here we are still dealing with insane racist crap . I am so sick of this insanity I could scream and be heard across this globe .

People just never change , just hold onto that racist crap handed down from generation to generation of idiots with minds so closed that not even waking up on day and looking in their own mirror seeing suddenly they have been transformed from white to a person of color would change their minds that they never use to think and reason with .

This has nothing to do with free speech , it has to do with free ignorence and stupidity .
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. There are 55 reported noose hanging incidents this year
tell the noose HANGERS to get over it.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. Do these legislators not have anything better to do?
If you're using a noose as a form of targeted racial intimidation, then sure, I can see some sort of hate crimes legislation coming into play, but other than that, it's just a friggin' noose. I'm getting a little tired of legislation that sounds like it's drenched in PC.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. What purpose do YOU propose was the cause for these noose incidents?
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I don't frame the debate the same way you do...
The First Amendment preserves all sorts of speech, including CODEPINK's right to protest Hillary Clinton for voting to invade Iraq. You don't have to like all the speech that you encounter, but it's still protected by our Constitution.

The focus on our laws should be to preserve and strengthen liberty, not take it away. Now, if you want to focus on hate crimes legislation that would criminalize selected uses of the noose to intimidate people along racial lines, I'll listen, but other than that, such legislation seems egregious.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Which part of this gives you grief?
In regards to the recent incidents involving nooses directed towards African-Americans, Rep. Laura Richardson (D-CA) has co-authored a resolution with Rep. Al Green of Texas (H. Res. 826) declaring "that the hanging of nooses are horrible acts and when used for the purposes of intimidation under certain circumstances, may be considered criminal acts that should be thoroughly investigated by Federal law enforcement authorities and vigorously prosecuted.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. As long as they keep a tight rein on the wording, I'm cool with it...
:hi:
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. Okay
I'm half black. My dad grew up in the deep South (Talladega AL). He's 67. Emmet Till's death was a defining moment in his life. The shit happened, it wasn't right, and people (ignorant hateful people) are going to do this crap still.

But I would like to know why a Democrat in Congress is pushing this legislation? There are greater issues right now than THIS issue that need to be addressed immediately. Anyone read the recent news reports about how black men have actually LOST their earning power over the years. I want to talk about Camden NJ (check out 20/20 last Friday). Bring a resolution to end the war, roll back the so-called Patriot Act, decimate NAFTA, pleadge our help to the AU in the Darfur genocide . . . so something that means something.

This is a waste of my time and ALL American's time. This petty bs that's been thrown at blacks by the Democratic Party for 40-some odd years isn't cutting it anymore.

Regardless of our skin color - we all need jobs, health care, a decent education for our children, affordable housing. I know - I'm dreaming big - but c'mon. I know I'm not alone. I'm not the only young black American who is sick of the pandering - but wants REAL change for ALL Americans: regardless of their race, religion, creed, sexuality, etc. etc.

This is pandering.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I'm with you. Banning nooses wil not solve any problems.
I'm also agreeing with jgraz above. Outlawing symbolic gestures is only a symbolic attempt to solve the real problems in our society.

--IMM
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. It may appear to be symbolic but it will at least start a dialog
in a country that denies its past injustices.

The U.S. Senate finally takes action in the form of resolution against hanging in 2005.

Senate Apologizes to Lynching
Victims, Families for Failure to Act

Senators Landrieu and Allen Joined By Lynching Survivor
and Descendents for Historic Vote

June 13, 2005

WASHINGTON – In more than 200 years, the United States Senate has rarely found an occasion to apologize. But today the body is expected to apologize to lynching victims and their families for the Senate’s failure to enact federal anti-lynching legislation during the first part of the 20th century.

From 1890 to 1960, 4,742 Americans were documented as having been lynched, with actual numbers believed to be much higher. During that time, nearly 200 anti-lynching bills were introduced to the United States Congress. The United States House of Representatives even passed three anti-lynching bills, but all failed on the floor of the Senate despite the lobbying of seven U.S. Presidents. Because of the Senate’s refusal to pass the legislation, the federal government was left powerless to intervene and protect Americans from these heinous acts of mob violence.


A noose is NOT a benign "symbolic gesture", race was the motivator for taking a life using the NOOSE under the guise of the "rule of law".
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Some of those people were hanged with a slip knot.
I'm most certainly against lynching. And though I'm not sure of the laws, others have pointed out that threatening someone with a noose is also illegal.

--IMM
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Did the slip knot make it a lesser murder? n/t
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 08:38 AM by flashl
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. No, but should we make slip knots illegal?
--IMM
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. The question is about nooses and the majority American's tolerance for a symbol that represents
hate and murders.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Full circle then. Outlawing symbols is against freedom of speech.
But if it's used to threaten or bully an individual, that's assault which is already illegal. I wouldn't outlaw the Swastika, and I'm Jewish. But if someone paints one on my door, that's already illegal, and if they can't be re-educated, they should be punished. It's not about tolerance, it's about freedom of expression. It's not illegal to be an asshole. (Can you imagine?)

--IMM
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. NY Senate dont think it is
Date: 10/22/2007
Office: Bruno
Title: SENATE PASSES BILL TO MAKE IT A FELONY TO DISPLAY A NOOSE ON PUBLIC OR PRIVATE PROPERTY

FOR RELEASE: Immediate, Monday, October 22, 2007
http://www.senate.state.ny.us

SENATE PASSES BILL TO MAKE IT A FELONY
TO DISPLAY A NOOSE ON PUBLIC OR PRIVATE PROPERTY

Measure protects residents from symbol of racism in wake of incidents in New York State

The New York State Senate Majority today passed legislation, sponsored by Senator Dean Skelos (R-Rockville Centre) to make it a felony to etch, paint, draw or otherwise place or display a noose on public or private property.

"This is a vile act that must be dealt with harshly," said New York State Senate Deputy Majority Leader Dean G. Skelos. "There is no place for racism and intimidation in America and this rash of incidents clearly demonstrates the need for tough new penalties. The Senate passed a bill today to make displaying a noose a felony and I encourage the Assembly to reconvene and pass this legislation as soon as possible."

This legislation recognizes that a noose continues to be a powerful symbol of racism and intimidation towards African Americans, and that it is solely meant to harass and threaten another person or a group of people. Today the Senate Majority took decisive action to protect all New Yorkers from the menacing and disturbing actions of a few,” Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno said.

...

The issue has also received national attention in the wake of the "Jena 6" case in Louisiana, in which a group of six black teenagers were charged with beating a white teenager at Jena High School in Jena, Louisiana. The beating followed a number of racially-charged incidents in the town, including an incident in which three white students hung nooses from a tree at Jena High school.


In 2006, in response to similar past incidents involving swastikas and burning crosses, the State Legislature supported and former Governor Pataki approved amending the State’s penal law to make the use of those symbols a crime.


The anti-noose legislation (S6499) amends New York’s aggravated harassment statute to make it a class E felony to etch, paint, draw, place or display a noose with intent to threaten, intimidate or harass.


The bill was sent to the Assembly, where it is sponsored by Assemblyman Joe Lentol.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. IMHO, that's unconstitutional.
It's a cliche, but the First Amendment protects odious speech as well as things that we like. When I was young I learned how to tie a noose and it was an amusing thing among my Boy Scout friends. (We each could tie twenty or thirty knots.) We thought of it as a way to dispose of cattle rustlers and horse thieves, as in the old west, (or our Hollywood notion of the old west.)

Wait until they start arresting people for displaying the peace symbol. Then maybe you will know what I mean. Oh wait...

--IMM
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. That was a bullshit resolution IMO
They shouldn't have apologized for not passing anti-lynching laws, they should apologize for not enforcing MURDER laws. CIVIL RIGHTS laws. But, apologies make everything better right?
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. No one was made whole by the resolution
It simply speaks to the two Amercias.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
43. The are OTHER issues that gravely impact the Black community
are you saying that Blacks can have only one issue at a time?

If you don't know where half of you've been, how do you know where you are?
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piesRsquare Donating Member (960 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. I would prefer to see federal legislation
targeting bullying/intimidation in general.

The United States is way overdue for a federal workplace bullying law. The noose-hanging, under particular circumstances, would be covered under such a law. Simply passing a law banning nooses misses the point.

Find out more about the legislative campaign for a workplace bullying law in the United States here (Healthy Workplace Bill):

http://workplacebullyinglaw.org/

BTW: Bullying is different from harassment.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
31. Haven't noose sightings increased following the
gross hanging of Saddam? Didn't MSM glorify that slaughter for the world?
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
33. Can we ban cartoonish witches at halloween too?
And I know there have actually been cases where pagans have tried to do this. I have to come down on the seemingly unpopular side of the First Amendment on this one too. I am a white male so obviously I have no frame of reference of how seeing this, particularly by someone from that era, would make a black man/woman feel other than my ability to empathize. That being said, as is known to most on here I consider myself a pagan and at one time a full fledged witch (no, not warlock)and nooses have as rich a history with our people, I dare to say.

My point is, as many on here have said, is that we need to suffer the idiots because guaranteed someone will find a someone to rant and rave about every minutiae of everyone's lives if we allow it by taking chunks out o the First Amendment on cases like these. Personally I say let the racists and haters out themselves. It makes them easier to spot, it makes them marginalize themselves and the enlightened world can look upon them with pity or even try to enlighten them. I truly believe it starts a more constructive dialog if the horrors of our country are apparent and in full view instead of being legislated to dark corners where they can be potentially more dangerous. Legislate against action. I'm all for hate crime laws, but not thought crime laws.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. If you dont understand it, then you dont understand racisim in America. n /t
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. I wasn't saying I don't understand it
I was trying to say I think it's a slippery slope. I think I do understand racism in america pretty well, I've lived most of my life speaking out against it and walking like I talk it.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Then you may know that
there places in America where its citizens need to hear that a threat against their lives is of concern.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Of course I know that
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 09:12 AM by shadowknows69
And I have seen american racism up close in my own family as my sister has a mixed child, whose father isn't around, in a very conservative and bigoted community. I would obviously be irate if there were similar things going on in my niece's neighborhood but I would deal with it to the extent of the law I was allowed. Or maybe I'd make it more personal and let the offenders know it would be in their best interest to stop, but that's just me, but I can't see where legislating against hatred as it is interpreted by a sometimes myopic congress, does much good. It is a bandaid on a bigger wound. Just my two cents. Thanks for your response.
Peace,
S
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. I respectfully question how deep
your understanding of racism is, based on your comments.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. As I said my understanding is more based on classism than racism
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 09:08 AM by shadowknows69
Or really my fellow pagans history of being persecuted by christianity. I was just trying to point out that no one has a monopoly on the pain that symbols of hatred cause. We have to ask ourselves IMO what we hold to be sacred symbols (not saying that these thugs actually held a noose to be sacred) that might offend someone else for the same reasons. The pentagram I hang on my wall in respect to my beliefs would cause many funamentalists to wish my death and they would feel they have a divine mandate. I just think we need to do more to change mindsets and not the symbols of those mindsets. I think it's an illusory solution.


<edit to add> before someone even comes up with the "you can change or lie about your faith in a life or death situation" argument I just have to add that at least for me, denying my beliefs under threat of death would be as impossible as changing the color of my skin.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
46. It's a damn good thing there's no important business that needs attention.
:eyes:
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:41 PM
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47. Maybe you missed this ..
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