Massive Sweep Creates Havoc for Workers’ Families

And Happy Thanksgiving one and all.


Massive Sweep Creates Havoc for Workers’ Families
by Alyssa Giachino

NEW YORK - Families are still scrambling to get information about their loved ones a week after U.S. immigration agents arrested over 1,000 workers at meatpacking plants in six states in a massive operation targeting people working with false documents.



“A lot of people still don’t know where they are,” Olivia Figueroa, who runs a small grocery store in Worthington, Minnesota, told IPS. Although Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has a hotline for family members to inquire about detainees, Figueroa said the information given is often contradictory.

Figueroa’s husband works at the Swift pork plant in Worthington, and he says production lines are slow because of missing employees. Figueroa said there are still workers who haven’t reported to the plant because they are afraid of another raid.

On Nov. 12, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents swept in on Swift & Co. meat processing plants in Colorado, Nebraska, Texas, Utah, Iowa and Minnesota. Production lines stopped as thousands of workers were asked to provide proof of legal residency or citizenship. ICE said the raid was part of an investigation into a “massive identity theft scheme that has victimised hundreds of U.S. citizens”.

Within hours, ICE had arrested 1,282 workers on administrative immigration violations. Thus far, 144 people have been criminally charged for identity theft as well as other crimes such as illegal reentry to the United States.

The raids have reignited the debates about immigration reform that dominated the political landscape earlier in the year, but did not result in Congressional action.

more...

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/20/5340/

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...By virtue of what do you call them criminals?

Them being in this country

without going through the proper

legal

procedures

and killed their leaders or that time he stole their election or made war on their soil.

Turn about doesn't even begin to be fair play.

When the rule of law means nothing to us, we are no better than the leadership IMHO

It's that these people are grabbed like so much human refuse. That's horrible and I'm ashamed of my government for behaving in this way.

harm you lifestyle.

and code for segregation.

Maybe I'm just old enough to remember that. lol

Because some asshole rednecks used it as a rationalization?

Or because you feel some sort of moral justification?

BTW I am not a xenophobe, I have personally assisted many of my young sailors in their citizenship process, its moving and wonderful when other cultures come here and I agree that immigrants are an integral part of our culture and history. But I believe in the Law more.

invoked by racists / con men who want to put something over on working people.

One is a value that I'm sure you and I both hold. The other is code for bigotry, and for scapegoating a whole class of people that are being exploited into the bargain.

So, what happens is, responsible people get caught up in the slogan without thinking the policy all the way through, -- as far as I can tell, anyway.

edit for clarity.

I will clarify that the people who hired these illegals should most certainly be put in jail.

you have broken.

"Rule of Law" is a mask to hide behind. It gives you cover to say and feel anything you want because the illegal immigrants are breaking the law.

I challenge you to think that being uncaring about the plight of people who can't earn enough to feed themselves let alone their families in the country they call home and then leave all they know to take a job in some meat packing plant, is a worse violation of ethics than their act of coming here illegally.

To not be caring that families are being split up and that children are losing contact with their parents is far much worse than them coming here illegally.

I challenge you to think that those children born her have every right as a citizen as you do. Leaving them to the care of the State is far worse than their parents coming her illegally.

I challenge you to think about the fact that these are living breathing human beings who want a decent life just as you do. They are not some criminal you can just callously toss aside while invoking the words, "rule of law."

"I challenge you to think that being uncaring about the plight of people who can't earn enough to feed themselves let alone their families in the country they call home and then leave all they know to take a job in some meat packing plant, is a worse violation of ethics than their act of coming here illegally."

I challenge you to think that letting people come here and live and work in blatant violation of our laws is a poor civics lesson indeed.

"To not be caring that families are being split up and that children are losing contact with their parents is far much worse than them coming here illegally."

I care very much that these people are not alowed to contact their families, they should be allowed due process just like every other citizen, resident and visitor.


"I challenge you to think that those children born her have every right as a citizen as you do. Leaving them to the care of the State is far worse than their parents coming her illegally."

I challenge you to understand that those children born to illegal immigrants are citizens of our nation and their parents have put them in danger by their illegal actions, just as much as the child of the criminal who was shot in Pasadena, TX.


The problem more than anything is the ragged enforcement of existing immigration laws. If wwe consistently and contantly applied immigration laws, punished the comapnies that hire them and enforced the border (on both sides, Mexico and Canada) these people would not do the cost-ebenefit analysis deciding that it is worth the risk to skirt the law before they settle in the US illegallt and further put the familys that they build in further risk of that horrible day when ICE decides to do a token raid and lock them all up.

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

-Lewis Caroll

Well, done.

:shrug:

...So then I guess every American soldier in Iraq right now is a criminal then also, right? Or maybe you can identify the proper legal channels we went through there?

And while you're at it please explain the proper legal channels early European settlers went through in displacing/slaughtering thousands of native American Indians in laying claim to this country in the first place.

Why not provide reasonable, efficient avenues for these people to become documented?

Does not mean that those who have broken the law deserve amnesty.

...Do you support that?

Deporting them, prolly

Letting them continue working, nope.

I have no doubt that in your righteous condemnation, you also call every friend and family member of yours who's ever done even three miles over the speed limit a criminal, too...

Same with pot smokers and jay walkers...

And one I am dead tired of. Why the hell bother to have immigration laws if no one bothers to enforce them.

and indeed pot smokers are victims of an unjust law but lawbreakers just the same.

yes so are Jaywalkers and Speeders, that is why they are citied.

Add identity theft to the lists of crimes that is "impossible" to enforce as to illegal immigrants. :eyes:

...usually involves the running of huge debt in someone else's name and this crime is often the work of fellow citizens. It doesn't sound like that's what this is about to me.

...offenses with serious ones on order to justify harsher punishment.

Crossing the border in search of work and using a fake ID (which is probably what they're calling identity theft) in order to secure work is unlawful, but shouldn't be treated as a serious criminal offense. Especially in light of the fact that we have no streamlined, efficient system for these people to become documented.

What "theyre calling identity theft" is defined in the US Code.

...but the people who administer/enforce/adjudicate it very often do. And it's usually for the purpose of punishing someone (or many) they don't happen to like, even though they have done nothing serious.

The Nazis criminalized virtually anything and everything about the Jews -- all nice and legal.

The case of Jose Padilla is a more recent example and hits closer to home.

Imperfect as it is, the rule of law is the only thing standing between us and chaos. Your argument can be used to excuse rape, murder, whatever...

...don't you think?

Here's my summation of your remarks in a word: Demagogy

Here's Wiki's treatment of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogy

to guide me.

Here's the Wikipedia treatment of your mode of argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

...the post where I said "If I don't like it, it's a bad law."

You're knowingly attributing a quote to me that you simply made up. Incredible.

Here's the Wiki entry that best describes that practice:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie

that you can use and pay into their account and never get a cent back. One of the many perks of working here without papers.

This practice has been morphed into "identity theft" just as undocumented workers have been morphed into potential terrorists.

Then paying into the system. Then the Citizen is forced to deal with the IRS when their income tax doesn't match what they say you've made. And then it takes forever to fix. And it includes a nice audit from the IRS.

That's Identity Theft as well, even if the person that's using the SSN doesn't open any credit cards, etc.

won't do that because it opens up the possibility of being busted -- which they can't afford in any way.

Usually, they tap someone who assured them that the SSN that they are BUYING is deceased.

This whole thing is big money using one set of working people against another.

...but labeling them criminals when they (most of them) don't come here to engage in what we would ordinarily think of as criminal activity, and then rounding them up and imprisoning them? Do you support that?

Ask a Mexican consul how their government woould view our entery into Mexico, acquire a false identity and documents and take a job. Do you know the consequences of a US citizen doing that in Mexico?

...Are you preposing we base our laws on the standards set by Mexico as opposed to deciding for ourselves what is reasonable, fair, and just?

I have no idea what preposing is - it isnt a word. I think reciprocity should be a factor in the development of laws on immigration policy. It would definitely influence my views of what is fair, just and reasonable. If our laws differ, I'll abide by their laws when in their country. I have been abroad often and know that if I break a law, the State Department isn't going to arrive with a "get out of jail free" card. I believe the United States should be able to expect no less from citizens of other nations. I also believe we are reasonable, fair and just in applying sacntions for breaking our laws.

...exactly? -- if Mexico, or any other nation, unjustly treats one of our citizens, we unjustly treat theirs? Punish innocent people just trying to find work for the acts of their government. Are you for real?

Were we reasonable, just and fair with Jose Padilla? What laws did he break? Why was he rounded up and held for so long without access to representation?

You sound like part of the police state. In fact I'll bet you could land a position with BushCo in policy formulation.

Do you like the Patriot Act? How 'bout the Military Commissions Act of 2006? Would you describe these legislative acts as reasonable, just, and fair. Are you anticipating their application to U.S. citizenry to be reasonable, just, and fair?

Or maybe you think massive roundups are only for undocumented workers? Are you really too thick to see where this is headed?

than Mexico. We are not punishing people just for trying to find work. We are apprehending people who violated our immigration law and ignored the quota system thereby hurting their own countrymen who are abiding by the law. Are you too obtuse to understand that. Are you so stupid that you don't understand that we are not responsible for repairing the damages done to Mexican citizens by their own governemnt.

Padilla was fairly treated under the Patriot Act - I am not expressing my feelings about that legislation, just saying it is the law. When Padilla got his day in Court, he was convicted by a Federal jury of conspiring to kill people overseas and of funding and supporting overseas terrorism. Which part of that is good and honorable? Or fair, just and reasonable on Padill's part?

You sound like a complete anarchist. No law is good. No border is reasonable. The US is terrible. Who's policy team do you aspire to join - Chavez, Castro or Ahmadanejad? I have no desire to be a memeber of the Bushco (you got that code word in too) policy team.

I don't feel like a long discusssion of all the controversial legislation you ask about. It has problems, but it was backed by both parties. Do you take anything for the paranoia? I don't tthink that the government is out to get me. I'm just not that important.

:rofl:

...And all this time I thought you were seriously trying to debate -- you're too good, man, you really had me going there.

...I'd like to inspect them please.

...Rex-84 reeducation center nearest you? And you don't want brother-in-law moving back in with you and the Mrs? Is that it?

and with much better reason.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

to my people, I dont even think I can respond to that it is so stupid.

Seriously

edumacate me please oh wise sage.

these people for hundreds of years before Hitler was even born, don't you? There are undocumented slaves right now in Florida swamps.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=379&topic_id=798&mesg_id=798

I get so upset over the havoc this policy creates in the lives of real people that my fingers type faster than my judgment can keep up with. Sorry.

I am from FL where Immigration has gone wild at various point over the years and I get frustrated at companys who hire illegals as well as the illegals themselves. I do not hire companys that do not have documented workers working for them and I wish others would do the same, part of the problem is the creation of the market for these people that is allowing them to be exploited.

The thing is, I've known many of these people close up. And it just about kills me to hear how they are treated like meat, not people.

Fine -- bust them and deport them. But for Christsake, give them a chance to make a phone call. To have anything like the due process you and I would expect if we were busted for a DUI or a suspended license or something of that severity. Most of these workers come here because they have to, not because they want to.

Those companies are at fault, for sure. But they are aided and abetted by the Feds. And the people, just working people trying to live, are caught in between. :(

And Due Process should be extended to all citizens, visitors and residents of the US even thos here illegally.

Right? They didn't say, "Just some men with the right papers".

So, we got somewhere today. Cool. I hope you and yours have a good holiday.

does it really matter who you are?

They had lived in Germany for generations and were German Citizens, no comparison.

so citizenship decides who gets humane or inhumane treatment? Citizenship decides who gets disappeared? Citizenship decides which families get torn apart?

And when the Man changes the rules, then what?

I suppose you're ok with the Patriot Act and H.R. 1955? After all, you'll be fine, you're a citizen.

What part of that poem did you not understand? None of it, it seems.

Is Rex 84 inhumane? It appears to be a holding facility to me. As for the families, if they are illegal too, I'd be happy to reunite them.

Is your measure of who deserves humane treatment a birth certificate?

That's disgusting.

or the massive human rights violations that are occurring in these sweeps. Not at all.

her kids come home to nobody and no information. Think about it.

I was a translator in every jail in San Francisco -- city, county, state and Fed. People being held on immigration charges used to beg me to write to their families so they would know they were still ALIVE.

They used to beg me to find out if someone was taking care of their kids while they were held for months for no reason except the Feds hadn't bothered to deport them yet while our tax dollars supported their imprisonment.

Unless you feel being a mother is a good defense to a charge of murder, bank robbery, or forgery, I think you need to rethink your argument.

Geezus on a trailor hitch.

Being a mother is not a defense to virtually any crime. There are American born mothers in jail for identity theft right now.

These people are not being arrested for murder, bank robbery or forgery, they are being arrested for trying to make a living.

Arrest procedures were followed - there is NO indication of inhumane treatment. The arrested were separated from their families. That is too bad, but the family members are likely illegal too. It is a consequence of an illegal action that these perps took and they were fully aware of the possible results.

Your black and white thinking is getting in the way of your common sense.

American citizens usually clear that up quickly and are released. - unless hey have warrents. I don't think I think in black and white - but then your "common sense" may say I am. I have always found it interesting hoow subjective "common sense" is.

And, how progressive of you to think this treatment is just fine for other people but not citizens.

I'd love to know your definition of human rights.

I'm not worried about how "progressive" I am. Your implied insult missed with me. People are entitled to be treated equitably UNDER THE LAW - citizen or non-citizen. People are entitled to all rights available. If you are a non-citizen caught in an ICE raid, your treatment will be much better than it would be should you be a US citizen caught illegally in Mexico.

It IS a dehumanizing experience.

So the "perps" and their families get what they deserve?

I applaud your humanity.

No doubt your legalism will bouy you when you or someone you know is the target of the police.

If the perps are illegals, then yes they do get what they deserve - actually I think they get away with it most of the time. In any event, I do not expect that they are subjected to inhumane treatment. They are merely incarcerated until the legal system reaches its conclusion. Have you ever been to Mexico? I have and I am careful to mind my manners and be polite. If you want humane police treatment, don't go to Mexico. I believe my legalism will bouy me up should I become involved in a US police matter. Why would I expect to become a target of the police? I have never been arrested because I follow the law - the law WE made thru our elected representatives. I supported the losing candidate in the last sheriff's election. The winner still takes the time to talk to me when we meet. If I were as paranoid as you appear to be, I would expect the sheriff to have me on a list to check my speed, to look at the currency of my vehicle inspection/registration, to subject my cars to checks minor mechanical deficiencies, and possibly watch for me to leave dining establishments and check my blood alcohol levels. Funny, none of that has happened and, if he were not honorable, he could easily do these things.

A 'Good German'.

I see you've got your strategy for the onslaught of full blown fascism worked out.

Guess those half million pot smokers in jail deserve what they get too. Did they write the drug laws?

Following the law is full blown fascism? Do you only speak in code words? It appears you have a strategy - some would say it is only a come back - for anyone who doesn't share your opinion. What ever that opinon may be at any given time. Why don't you post a full list of the laws we can ignore. It would really be a lot of help for us "Good Germans".

Yep, the pot smokers in jail deserve to be there. If you do the crime, be prepared to do the crime. And I doubt they wrote the drug laws - the relevance of that comment completely escapes me.

Surely you cannot be so dense.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Good_German_Syndrome.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7424.htm

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The American Civil Liberties Union sued the U.S. government on Monday over what the rights group said was the wrongful deportation of a developmentally disabled U.S. citizen who is now missing in Mexico.

snip

Guzman, who was born in Los Angeles and lived about 70 miles north in Lancaster with his mother, could barely read and write, Soller said. He did not know his phone number and kept his brother's telephone number on a piece of paper.

snip

"The last thing she heard him do was ask someone nearby 'Where am I?' and then the line went dead," Soller said. Guzman has not been heard from since and is assumed lost in Mexico.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1118919320070611

'Cause it ain't about citizenship, it's about skin color.

Lets see if ICE looses before we jump. I live in a heavly hispanic area. Half of my regular golf foursome is hispanic. I don't see most cops or ICE as jumping on skin color just as a reason for deportation. When I see a large group of police - state troopers, Rangers, Game Wardens, ICE, Dea and FBI - there seem to be quite a few hispanic americans in the group.

If we keep this up you will get to use all of them. What a thrill for you! No, I don't think class is a big factor. Unlike you, I think people are better than they are stereotyped.

who were "illegal immigrants" in Germany at that time, and who were rounded up.

First they came for the people with no papers . . .

...they're going to start filling up these Rex-84 facilities, and political dissenters (the REAL targets) are next.

One of which I'm dating. (but don't worry my little libertarian friend-- she's not after your job... piloting a cash register isn't part of her American dream).

Some people may call her an illegal alien, others may call her a criminal. As for me, I call her Michelle when I'm not calling her beautiful.

Idiots screaming "DEY TOOK OUR JEBS!!" (they took our jobs!) It reminds me of people like the previous poster. How can humans be illegal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goobacks

:eyes:

"Stay put in your own country and soon, we promise, we'll be sending lots of American jobs your way."

when this is about a company breaking the law.


so now its okay if companies dont pay proper taxes(break the law) just because the people who happen to be involved are immigrants?

sorry, but i think punishing business that hire people who are here without documentation is the best way to promote legal immigration.

people who talk about walls and increased border patrol are delusional... nobody should be denied entry into the country if they are truely looking for a better life.

It's a grotesque alliance of George Bush, the Chamber of Commerce, and La Raza...

to stand up for human rights.

the corporatists who gain from it financially. To lump La Raza in with them is just wrong, and misses the point of trying to get humane treatment for the working people caught in the middle of this clusterf#ck.

Coming here without papers is horribly dangerous for workers.

I'm sorry that you find your political allies so distasteful, but to claim that Swift, Cargill, La Raza, George W. Bush, the US Chamber of Commerce, Ted Kennedy, Elliot Spitzer, John MCCain, et al aren't allied on this issue is an attempt to rewrite history that is in easy memory.

the us/mexican border fence:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20061214-1922-bn14golden.html

just my opinion but I think that she wasn't targeted just because of going after the dukester.

I do agree with your post though; we're emboldening a society of bigots, and I hate seeing it. Don't we have enough other problems without adding this one? There are ways to fix this to everyone's satisfaction, but no one even wants to attempt it.

Hate crimes up. People rounded up like cattle by the government without regard to their families, not to mention the harrassment and imprisoning of people who look vaguely Arab. Scary times.

for starters.

with the treatment of these people. Not thinking it through. Accepting it. That scares the sh!t out of me.

not calling anyone out, that's a fact. It does make me wonder who they get their talking points from, or if they really feel that way, why? I live in TX and there are many immigrants here. I've never had a problem with any of them. Live and let live.
I lived on Guam years ago and was denied a federal job because I wasn't a local, so I've been on the receiving end as well. It wasn't legal, but that's the way they operated. I didn't like discrimination then, and I don't like it now.

on its face. What responsible person would support illegal activity?

But it seems as though there are a lot of people who don't think beyond that premise to what all this really means for human beings, let alone, to how this situation came to exist in the first place.

It's that lack of curiosity or "thoughtfulness", if you will, that is disturbing to me. Because when your government and when the multinationals are colluding, that's when the people need the most thoughtfullness to counter them, to survive the predations. :shrug:

If democracy is not enacted for the benefits of citizens, it is merely window-dressing for the whims of big business, authoritarians, and despots.

Who else should a democracy respond to rather than its citizens? :silly:

de·moc·ra·cy audio (d-mkr-s) KEY

NOUN:
pl. de·moc·ra·cies

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/democracy

You're reaching. Furthermore, your definition says "social equality and respect for the individual within a community."

Importing cheap labor is specifically a method to depress wages for native born workers, for the the benefit of elites. This is specifically to the detriment to those within the community of citizens.

The undocumented workers here in the United States have been part of "the community" since before the nation was an entity.

so the anything relating to democracy is mute
lol

lol

by how repressive greek democracy was eventually.

it was corrupted just like every good idea, by money.
sound familiar ?

I've never read that any other great apes held slaves.

---

The U.S. IS NOT timely processing immigration applications, so are immigrants REALLY illegal?

Immigration processing 'cooked' numbers

"illegal immigration" as a tool to bust unions? :sarcasm:

Wages in the meatpacking industry haven't risen in 30 years.

had banded together with undocumented workers to force the hotel industry into decent wages and working conditions. And, it worked.

Villifying these workers is just like cutting off your nose to spite your face, imho, when they could be recruited to bolster labor.

to get whites to rally and act against their own self-interest.

As reference in: What's Wrong With Kansas? A Conversation With Thomas Frank

Yes.

"act against their own self-interest".

These two positions are difficult to reconcile, to say the least.

as the hotel workers of Los Angeles are doing, management is up a creek.

They are natural allies.

Strikes would be much more effective if the scabs joined the picket line, too! :silly:

was demonized Americans 'acted against their own self-interest' when they did not act. The last vestiges of intrenched union shops were swiped out using immigration.

What happened to the other 1138 workers? Seems like an awful outcome for them personally if there's just some minor error in paperwork, and I'd want to know if there's any employer culpability, and if so, why the executives' holiday wasn't equivalently ruined.

But I wasn't undocumented...

-Hoot

so, I did nothing."

:hug:

-Hoot

then they came for the illegal immigrants
but I did nothing because I came here legally

then they came for...no one because its the IMMIGRATION SERVICE DOING THIER DAMN JOB!

Or the people who hired them. Throw them in jail, seize their assets. Then the jobs would dry up. And they might actually have to pay a living wage. These people only come here out of economic necessity.

And our country can do a lot to improve conditions where they live as well.

If we deport the illegals and jail those who hire them, then the market will stop for them.