Toyota working on a new 110 mpg Prius for 2009

More here: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109981#2

Also see here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4212545.html

It's getting that crazy. It's good (I think).

"General Motors Corp. and the U.S. Army revealed a diesel hybrid military pickup truck equipped with a fuel cell auxiliary power unit (APU) that could become the model for the Army's new fleet of 30,000 light tactical vehicles by the end of the decade.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/112_news011003_army

Drop it off of a big building.

while you're at it?

Me too! :hi:

But I would gladly give up the towing abilities, I just want to be able to cruise 220kmh on the Autobahn. And get 150mpg. I'm series!! :evilgrin:

Can somebody tell me, though, how it's better to rely less on gas but still rely on electricity that is mainly fossil-fuel generated? I'm not trying to be bitchy, I'm honestly asking. Until we change the main sources of electricity, how the heck does upping MPG help? Are the power plants cleaner-burning than the cars?

electricity through the internal motion of the car itself. And all-electric cars are more efficient than gas cars. Even assuming they are plugged into a fossil-fuel-based source of electricity, they still generate less carbon then gasoline cars.

well, that is what the article says.

even if it had one (plug),
if you don't like it, don't use it.

It's not just about "if I don't like it don't use it." I'll make that decision on my own, based on the information. It's about trying to help other people question assumptions they, too, may be making. That way hopefully, we *all* learn something.

I would say its a step forward because if you can get most people to switch to plug-in hybrids (which the new Prius is not, but no matter), you reduce the scope of the problem. Once people switch, you no longer have to change the habits or possessions of millions of people, you only have to improve the source of electricity, which is merely a few thousand power plants. The scope of the problem becomes much more doable, IMHO.

"PHEVs and fully electric cars may allow for more efficient use of existing electric production capacity, much of which sits idle as operating reserve most of the time. This assumes that vehicles are charged primarily during off peak periods (i.e., at night), or equipped with technology to shut off charging during periods of peak demand. Another advantage of a plug-in vehicle is their potential ability to load balance or help the grid during peak loads. This is accomplished with vehicle to grid technology. By using excess battery capacity to send power back into the grid and then recharge during off peak times using cheaper power, such vehicles are actually advantageous to utilities as well as their owners. Even if such vehicles just led to an increase in the use of night time electricity they would even out electricity demand which is typically higher in the day time, and provide a greater return on capital for electricity infrastructure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid

I posted a couple of months ago about an article in QST, the Amateur Radio Relay League journal, about using a PHEV as an emergency generator. A Prius at 1000 rpm (gasoline motor) generates something like 32kW, which would run my house with everything on, including the airconditioning and my ham radio transmitter. I forget the exact fuel burn rate, but I seem to recall that I calculated that I could power the house for over three days, continuously, on a tank of gas. Can you imagine the neighbors' Prius Envy at that during a prolonged power outage (like our ice-storm of '05)! Prius Party in my comfy warm home! BYOB and BYOG (gas)!

http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf

The California Air Resources Board (CARB) estimates that EV’s operating in the Los
Angeles Basin would produce 98 percent fewer hydrocarbons, 89 percent fewer oxides of
nitrogen, and 99 percent less carbon monoxide than ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles.

In a study conducted by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, EVs are
significantly cleaner over the course of 100,000 miles than ICE cars. The electricity
generation process produces less then 100 pounds of pollutants for EVs compared to
3000 pounds for ICE vehicles.

CO2 emissions are also significantly lower. Over the course of 100,000 miles, CO2
emissions from EVs are projected to be 10 tons versus 35 tons for ICE vehicles.15

See also: Iraq war, oil dependence, 1 million dead, 4 million displaced.

The power to weight ratio is better for electric motors. This leads to a lighter vehicle both because of the direct weight reduction and the reduced requirement of the frame to support it. Remember Newton's formula F=ma. If you reduce the mass, you can use a proportionately reduced force to get the same acceleration. In addition, you can use regenerative breaking to turn your kinetic energy back into stored electricity.

The problem is the batteries. The Energy storage density in batteries is far less than gasoline for an IC engine. So if your range is limited, less than about 50 miles, the motor works better. If you could directly turn gasoline into electricity, you wouldn't need a hybrid that does this using an engine to produce electricity.

Since the '08 Priuses are available now, aren't they?

I wonder what this will do to Prius sales for the next 2 years? Will people sit and wait for the higher mpg and lower price?

Article is a bit misleading. It says the "2009 model" will be available in two years, which would actually be the 2010 model year.

As for the new model "cannibalizing" sales, it's anyone's guess. I'm sure Toyota won't be doing much to promote the new specs publicly for a little while yet.

i'm driving mostly on rural roads these days, so if the electric motor is only good up to a sustained 30mph- i'd almost never be utilizing it.

Even when not running in electric-only mode, the electric motor and ICE are working together to improve performance *and* fuel efficiency. (Recharging when coasting or braking, and boosting the ICE as needed.)

I get 55MPG driving 55MPH in my '06 Prius, so I'd say the electric motor does a world of good. (and still get about 40+MPG when averaging 75MPH)

and estimates of 125 mpg and a chart showing potential of 170+ mpg, and three fillups a year !

ttp://www.a123systems.com/newsite/index.php#/applications/phev/pchart5/

my question would be does age and temperature affect performance of the batteries ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery

It says at the link below that operating temp range is -30°C to +60°C, so (-22F to +86F)

so heat or lack thereof will affect performance.

BMZ Offers Nanophosphate Lithium-Ion Rechargeable Battery
http://edageek.com/2006/09/18/nanophosphate-lithium-ion-battery/

but what would be the lifespan ? It says they're rechargable but is there a limit to that ?

I'm stoked, don't get me wrong, but I want to know how reliable this technology is.

How about a hybrid EV/biodiesel combination ?

Toyota has a concept plug-in showing this year, I think.

EDIT: Apparently A123 can be used for regular hybrids as well. However, the mpg figures you provided are for PHEVs.

I can tell you I won't be driving my Prius in 140F temps! (At least not yet!)

There is a 100,000 mi/8 yr warrantee on the batteries. I've seen reports that the true battery lifespan is closer to 250,000mi.

http://www.teaching-english-in-japan.net/conversion/celsius

I must have been looking at the 30 for both.

So heat won't be a problem but cold spells may be a problem in some areas.

I don't see how they can break the 100 mpg barrier without plug-in charging (PHEV = Plug-in Hybrid Energy Vehicle). Guess I better get my name on the wait list. I WANT ONE!

BTW: Filled up my 2007 Prius at Costco today (11/20). I have not fueled since 10/26, and it took 6.88 gals. I drove only 325 miles in 25 days, averaging 47.2 mpg. I am the perfect candidate for a PHEV: low daily mileage local driver.

Those Muscle Cars
On the Drag Strip
Are Really Electric
Clunker Run on Batteries
Trounces Latest 'Gassers';

John Wayland's Close Call

By JOHN J. FIALKA
August 1, 2007; Page A1

PORTLAND, Ore. -- On a recent Friday night at the Portland International Raceway, John Wayland scanned the dragsters, looking for an opponent for his geeky looking 1972 Datsun sedan. Finally, he challenged the owner of a souped-up 2005 Corvette, the hottest-looking car at the track, to a quarter-mile race.

When the starting light flashed, the Datsun, known as White Zombie, shot silently past the Corvette and kept widening the lead as the two cars faded into the distance. "Oh man, right off the line he had me," said the Corvette's owner, Robert Akers, shaking his head.

Electric cars are typically known for their fuel efficiency and environmental bona fides, not for their speed and muscle. But Mr. Wayland, 47 years old, is changing that, and has become something of a hero to a small group of hot rodders dedicated to humiliating gasoline-powered cars. The night White Zombie beat the Corvette, it also trounced two other "gassers," as Mr. Wayland calls them -- a blue BMW and a bright orange 1964 Pontiac Tempest...

SOURCE: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118593442187584293.html?mod=todays_us_page_one

very cool shit.
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php

Sid

China, the bastion of environmentally friendly?

that has absolutely nothing to do with anything else but I just wanted to repeat that talking point to see if they will give me a show on Fox News.

Wait....nothing yet...

Wages dropped, and Ford was run like a police state.

were about the only good things to come out of the corporatist/fascist collaboration. Let's hope that these current corporations like Toyota, Chrysler, Ford and GM et al, will put out EVs and PHEVs that use great technology.

In the landmark Supreme Court case of Dodge v. Ford, the Court basically told Ford that he can take his philanthropy outside of the confines of the corporation. The corporation exists to enrich the shareholders, first and foremost. It's not a charitable organization, especially if the shareholders aren't in a giving mood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Company

Dodge v. Ford Motor Company, 204 Mich. 459, 170 N.W. 668. (Mich. 1919).

This also hints at David Ricardo's labor theory of value. Wages will always be hammered down.

You might get the job, keep trying.

I'd like Tacoma kind of small truck hybrid/EV but let's see how this tests out. Plug in's PHEVs with solar-homes would be neat. For the heavyduty guys biodiesel/EV hybrids seem the logical way to go.

Green is the way to go. I remember idiot GOP 'strategists' saying "Green is the new Red". What a bunch of shitferbrains.

until there is a hybrid that goes over 100mpg:)

50mpg aint enough.

A bit of an investment, but, the car is paid for... Especially since I don't see what I want in terms of a replacement, I've gone the route of two friends who did this to theirs and have since put on 150 and 200K respectively. Since I don't drive much, that would get me into the timeframe when something like this might be available.

Besides, I need 4WD or AWD ...

USA USA USA USA

you can play cards in the back!

I have on 2007 Prius and I am very happy with it but I really like the way this one looks.

I'm not buying any of the current hybrid. Being a performance nut, none of them would satisfy me.

Sure, a 110-MPG Prius would be nice, but it would be even nicer not to go with any gas at all!

I wonder if they will offer in Germany, I think BMW is working on Hydrogen vehicles. My husband wants a totally non-oil powered car.

I bet that car could do better than the 104mph.

I'd have to be a bank robber in order to be drunk enough to purchase one of them, and the cops always seem to go faster anyway so what's the bloody point? Most of the speed increment will be due to the gas engine, I'd suspect.

We whine our lives go too fast and then someone makes something else to help ensure we do things faster. Repeat ad infinitum.

...as much, you can't get around that fact.

I saw the Edmunds article noted that the Japanese fuel economy calculations didn't transfer over to American driving conditions.

current Prius gets 99 MPG and we know it doesn't. I think Consumer Reports claims the Prius only gets around 45 MPG average in real life. So if they claim the new one will get 110 MPG that is only about a 10% increase based on the 99 MPG figure???

Toyota was rocked when news seeped out that Honda was planning a low price Fit hybrid for 2008, with the price differential just 200,000 yen (some $1,700) more than the regular gasoline version. So work on the next Prius has redoubled to slash R&D costs and halve Toyota's current hybrid differential of 500,000 yen (some $4,240) to compete.

Do It Yourself instructions,
http://www.evadc.org/build_an_ev.html

tied to A123 Systems PHEV battery pack
http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/index.php#/home/phev

and the pack itself,
http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/index.php#/applications/phev/pchart4/

makes 110-170+ mpg possible. Hmmm.

These aren't nuclear secrets they're holding that can't be spread. Toyota could put the same internal workings in a bunch of other bodies and give people more options if they wanna be green. Not to mention every other Auto conglomerate.

could be utilized to get the three digit mpg values on hybrids. I think biodiesel and EV hybrids make the most sense in the long run.

I'll keep what I have . This may as well be gold filled and diamond studded and how long will this thing last , 3 years before it begins falling apart .

The auto industry killed all other forms of transport and the auto is a fools game , a little private box on wheels and people drool all over the damn things and still sit in traffic .

:yoiks: