Family of Woman Bitten by Snake During Church Service Suing Hospital Where She Died

http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3853735&page=1

By The Associated Press
November 12, 2007 8:45:26 AM PST

The family of a woman bitten by a rattlesnake during a church service in southern Kentucky is suing a hospital and several of its employees, accusing them of ridiculing her religious beliefs rather than providing proper care.

Linda F. Long, 48, of London was bitten on the right cheek by a yellow timber rattler at the East London Holiness Church on Nov. 5, 2006. snip

A nurse met Long and those with her in the parking area outside the emergency room, according to the lawsuit. The nurse engaged Long and her family "in a lengthy and time-consuming series of questions" instead of immediately admitting the woman, the lawsuit states.

The suit also alleges that hospital employees "snickered and made derogatory comments" around Long's family about her religious beliefs and the circumstances of the bite. A doctor also failed to properly treat her reaction to the bite - including a drop in blood pressure and swelling in her neck, mouth and face - and failed to insert a breathing tube when she had trouble breathing.

protecting her during said snake handling? Or how about a little personal responsibility for not having enough faith to believe the serpent wouldn't bite?

Oh, ye of little faith.

If she was bitten, then its gods way of saying "its your time"
These people need to wake up and join the rest of modern society!
God gave people a brain, and my brain tells me that snakes will bite if you piss them off!
Its not a message from god, its a message fron the friggin snake!

I'm sorry the person died, but she chose to handle that snake. If she was too ignorant to realize that snakes bite, too bad

is terrific.

It made my morning.

If your dumb enough to play with snakes then you have to assume the risks involved.

The snake should be called to testify. I would listen to the snake's remarks about forced participation in religious rituals.

Church = whatever insurance will pay


So much for "It was God's will . . . . "

I don't know if I believe it since they are snake handlers. I can certainly see where a rattlesnake bite on the cheek might cause disfigurement very quickly to the point that inserting a breathing tube may be difficult or impossible.

passage. I prefer a metaphorical taking up of serpents and feel rattlesnakes are better left alone.

If someone is a snake-handling fundie or a lion tamer, my thought is I hope they have adequate insurance.

I'm sorry someone died here, but even sorrier that snake-handling remains a viable option for local faithful in that community. Who in the congregation gets to handle rattlesnakes? Are rattlesnakes provided for the flock or are folks expected to round up their own to bring into Sunday service.

No matter your religious inclinations and beliefs, it seems to me that rattlesnakes aren't noted for their denominational piety. Hikers hearing their rattle usually head the other way and leave well enough alone.

The Constitution allows people to go to whatever church or synogogue or temple etc they want to. But as the proverb goes, "Call on God, but row away from the rocks."

No matter how off the wall her beliefs may seem to you, that does not excuse the hospital from liability if they did not treat her the way they should have. Is there a certain amount of personal responsibility that needs to come in to play? Of course, and handling poisonous snakes as proof God favors you is a Bad Idea if ever there was one. But if the hospital didn't treat her in an expedited fashion because they were too busy making fun of her, she should die because she's lolz some dumb hillbilly snake handler? How very Republican. I'm reminded of the transgendered woman who was beaten and then died because paramedics laughed at her and refused to treat her.

I'm thinking as Pagans we may want to watch out for those glass houses when we start chucking stones, especially considering some of the things some of us do in our practice (handling poisonous herbs, for just one example). :shrug:

The hospital could have been negligent, or it might not have been, but it will depend on that question.

It's no different from those mountain climbers a year or so ago. They take the risk, society ends up trying to save them from the consequences, but we help, nonetheless, and if we do so negligently, we end up liable in civil court.

You used dangerous herbs as an example. If a Pagan were to eat a deadly plant, thinking that is they were "worthy" enough they would live.....then yes, my reaction would indeed have been the same.

Harm None includes yourself.

Replace snake handler with any other minority and people would be outraged. If, and it is a big if, the account is accurate, the hospital was out of line and deserves to be sued. The fact she was a snake handler is irrelevent.

And the 'minority' percentage here is infintessimal. I don't accept that snake-handlers constitute a protected class owing to their interaction with poisonous animals.

Any medical negligence or sub-standard care or bias-against-treatment is wrong. If the hospital is found guilty, it is the outcome in this incident, but the response you see if legitimate becaue some snakes are poisonous.

Most hospital workers are not negligent. All rattlesnakes are poisonous.

Not sure what you are talking about. This is a civil suit alleging negligence. NO criminal charges were filed. :shrug:

The accusation is made against a hospital ini an off-site venue in which grievous harm is assessed.

That's the hinge of the case, isn't it? The woman is suing the hospital. What evidence do we have at hand that demonstrates negligence? None.

She is "...accusing them of ridiculing her religious beliefs rather than providing proper care."

If hospital personnel are found negligent as charged, the court remedies obtain. Prior to that process and determination, it does appear to me that someone who picks up a rattlesnake gets what they pay for.

and with no evidence on the treatment provided, timelines, etc., all anyone can do is speculate and, as you say there is obvious information on the source of the life threatening events.

Certainly, she could have already absorbed so much venom that all the anti-venom, respiratory, fluid, and blood pressure support, might have done no good.

What bothers me, to the extent it MIGHT be true, would be the delay in getting treatment started. While the comments (if made) about her religion are irrelevant, I'd be tempted to question whether the triage nurse might not have been new or at least inexperienced with respect to the seriousness of rattlesnake bites. (Of course, it is possible to say the same could be true of the doctor, I suppose...) We are increasingly trying to staff hospitals that have insufficient nurses with both the least they can get by with, in terms of numbers, but also experience.

:shrug:

that they were trying to ascertain what her religious beliefs were and how they dictated treatment of the bite (think blood and Jehovah's Witnesses), one has to wonder whether antivenin would be allowed and the only way to ascertain that is to ask.

about the delivery of some forms of medical care. To ask questions pertinent to that issue shows a certain religious concern and sensitivity. If the people were adamantly opposed to certain medical treatments, the staff could have been sued for treating first and asking later.

I would also guess the medical staff needed to know about any other medical conditions and/or allergy problems.

If someone is bleeding, you can safely assume stopping the bleeding then asking questions is a good course of action. In the case where medicines probably have to be injected into a patient, medical staff would be negligent if they didn't ask a few questions first.

I will reserve judgment on the staff until we here their side of what was discussed with people who were likely rather upset that their faith God would protect them from the ill-advised provocation of snakes was shaken rather forcefully.

She was doing something stupid. She was injured while doing it. It cost her her life.

People need to take some damn responsibility for their actions.

Normal reaction from people would be " You were doing WHAT? Are you fucking nuts?".

and if told by doctors and/or nurses that said actions were irresponsible, I can't blame them.

If they did delay treatment, however, because of said judgement, that would be wrong.

I guess it's just a matter of whether the family felt judged or if they were actually mis-treated.

or worse. it does NOT mean they should not receive prompt and proper medical care. I don't know the details of this case, however, if what the suit alleges is true, then people should be held responsible.

How many people everyday are killed/injured by drunk drivers, cell phone drivers and sleepy drivers? Do those 'stupid' drivers deserve to die? A 'yes' to that question would be very telling...

sP

Why does religion give one a free pass to do stupid, life-threatening stunts?

Steve-o
The Croc hunter (rip)
Survivorman
Even Andrew Zimmern, the bizzare foods guy

risking your life is risking your life
period.

Snake bites can be very bad if you don't get timely treatment or know what bit you.

People who do stupid things for a living know what can go wrong and take necessary precautions to get medical assistance as soon as possible. People who do stupid things to show their religious faith would be violating that faith if they took any kind of precautions at all.

I sit corrected.

they could have their asses sued off for their trouble. Might have been some faith-respecting going on in the asking of questions in this case. We won't know until we get both sides.

I admit if I worked in the ER I'd have a hard time keeping my mouth shut, but I would recognize it was my professional duty to shut up and simply treat the person's injury to the best of my ability.

When the snake responds to being harassed by biting, it should not be that big of a surprise. If the provocation of the snake was a choice, the individual/group that did the provocation are both foolish and responsible. Pointing that out is not attacking an 'minority'.

Most other minority people do not choose that which makes them a minority. When a bad CHOICES are what defines a 'minority group' that does not warrant special consideration. Drunk drivers are a minority too, but BY CHOICE. They make bad decisions and sometimes they and others get hurt because of their belief that driving under the influence is just fine. We do not hesitate to hold them responsible for their dangerous behavior.

What about a little personal responsibility? Most of what we call minorities are not responsible for being of a minority group. One cannot logically replace 'snake handlers' in this case with say, blacks, Hispanics, WASPs or such, and expect the behavior of pissing off snakes would not be criticized because of the ethnic heritage of the person doing such a stupid thing. If I purposely provoked a snake, my being a minority (in my case, a blond) would not be reason to let the behavior slide.

People who deliberately piss off vipers do so by choice. They are responsible for their fate, not entitled to duck responsibility due to some self induced minority status.

The few people I have met who follow this particular demonstration of faith (and foolishness) also have been vehemently opposed to liberals, who they decried as being in favor of the "Nanny State" which they also opposed.

Shows just how narrow my view is. I foolishly assumed most people of that sect/cult would all eschew the Nanny State and thereby not insist somebody else has to pay for the bad decisions they made in pissing off snakes.

And my rant was about a reply that questioned our if our response to the incident would be the same if any other 'minority' had been involved. Clearly, you missed the whole point about what constitutes a minority in regards to circumstances. This woman was in a minority group, but it was by choice.

Never mind. You aren't gonna get the difference between minority by choice (even poor choice) and, say minority by genetics, ethnics, or other non-choice realities.

You draw your conclusions as to what I 'imply'. I can't stop you from making an incorrect anaylsis (choice) about what I actually SAID.

YOU imply that you care about others and I don't. You assume you know something about me based on your incorrect analysis of my statements, being tripped up by what you assume I imply instead of fully understanding what I said.

You have no idea what I have done for others. You would be surprised if you bothered to have the facts.

But, go on and assume. So much easier.

Me, I would like more facts to go on before making a judgment on this event. My post was about what makes one a minority and that such group identification based on choices is not really a defense for bad choices or foolish behavior.

I don't think it is medical personel's place to engage in those judgements. Most heart attacks are caused by bad behavior. Most strokes as well. Many cancers.

as we only have what the family has said happened. We do not have anything to base any real thoughtful opinion on re what the medical staff did. We have one side's telling of an event. That does not generally guarantee truth.

Sorry about your friend. But unless you were present at the time the snake bite victim came in to the ER, you really can't fairly project the behavior of one medical team on another. In all fairness, one needs fact, not a judgment based on some completely unrelated incident.

I will agree, which is why my first post on this subject contained the word if, that we don't know that is what the personel did; but your post justified them doing it.

b) handling snakes is a fairly risky passtime. A case can easily be made that medical professionals should point that out.

In the end, I'm sympathetic to the family only because those conversations can wait until the patient is out of harm.

... but I wonder how many family members those doctors and nurses have treated for snake bites over the years.

and it is a stupid and irrational thing to be. The color of one's skin or one's orientation, on the other hand, are not matters of horrifically stupid choice.

if the proximate cause of her death was the bite itself and not the negligent actions/omissions of the hospital (e.g., in the event she couldn't have been saved even if a disparaging remark about her religion had not been made).

if they can prove the hospital workers reacted that way it shows they shouldn't be in their profession.

the meat of the matter is whether she received appropriate care. Aren't most people with poisonous snake bites given immediate treatment? Of course, as one poster pointed out, we've only heard the family's side of the story.

One needs to know the type of snake as all venoms are not the same and the time factor involved. Numerous questions need be asked before any "proper" treatment can be started. Snake bite from a venomous snake in the face or head area is quite often fatal and one can not blame a hospital for that..just saying....

different venomous snakes get different types of treatment.

It would be interesting to hear the hospital's side of this story.

I wouldn't want to be treating her and find out later on she keeps it in her pocket.

Don

especially in the South, where they are most often Copperheads-- a more mildly venomous species that rarely results in the need for antivenin (unlike rattlesnakes), unless the dog is very small or the bite was on the face/neck near major vessels.

One of the common complaints I hear from veterinarians in the field, though is that the staff can always tell when someone is rushing in with a dog that has been snakebit.... They almost inevitably have a moving pillowcase in the other hand...! While it makes since to want snake species identified, why the heck don't they KILL it first! :crazy:

so they can treat it appropriately. Being that it was a snake handler they probably wanted to make sure it wasn't some exotic snake that needs special treatment. (I am only guessing though)

The snake is the one that killed her.

I mean RATTLESNAKES at a church service? Is that even legal??? I'm sure this isn't the first time someone has died or been seriously injured.

Whether she believed that it would or wouldn't kill her... Or if she "deserved" to get bit.. or whatever.

Are any animals on the Rapture list?

We should phone up Jim Dobson's office and ask into this matter. All 100-some-thousand of us.

When I was a teenager we'd sometimes drive out to a little church in the Alabama boonies to watch an outdoor 'worship service' of snake handlers. Way weird.

send it for a small press editor's consideration.

I would read a story like that.

Apparently the boxes can be something of interest as they are often heavily adorned with 'American Primitive' depictions of the scriptures. I understand brass tacks and wood burning are the favored medium.

I was in India working a few years back and was frequently drawn to the snake handlers who seemed to pop up at every corner of New Delhi. Assuming these cobras were defanged, I'd often get fairly close. One day an Indian cop was standing there but quickly did a "b-line" when one of the cobras came out of the basket and inexplicably started to quickly head towards where I (and the cop before) was standing. It was then that I decided maybe those snakes were NOT without their venom! (Indeed, apparently they are intact).

I still find snakes fascinating, but I will certainly keep sufficient distance.

like us will listen to testimony from both sides and decide if the family was wronged.

Obviously God was displeased with her and that is why she was bitten. You would think they would accept that God just wanted her dead. Their actions do not fit with their proclaimed beliefs.

worship, but my limited understanding was that they wouldn't take the medical treatment anyway.

I am interested in reading more about this--we live in NC--and I know that there are pockets of snake handlers in the mountains.

Ironic, ain't it?

don't have such funny beliefs.

Sid

What kind of snake was it? Where did it bite her? What reactions was she having? When did it happen? Was she on any other medications? Was she fucking stupid?


I hope to god that it wasn't these questions that she classified as "lengthy and time-consuming"

What are your religious beliefs that MIGHT interfere with our standard plan of treatment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Rattler

The venom is less potent than that of its more dangerous cousins, notably the eastern diamondback (C. adamanteus) and the western diamondback (C. atrox). Though generally not lethal, swelling and tissue damage may occur from a bite. Like all other venomous snakes, it can control the amount of venom that is delivered; as a result, not all reported timber rattlesnake bites state venom was injected into the victim.

:eyes:

Or a Lutheran. I get them confused.

:hi:

another Darwin award winner...

I don't see any mention of kids in the article so she might be a great nominee.

Even then-if she got there too late for them to help, or any number of possible complications could affect the situation that are not the doctor's or hospital's liability.

Clearly, in ALL accidents and mishaps, there's always SOME 'blame' to be allocated to many people. What about the church/congregants? Why didn't they 'milk' the rattler beforehand? After all, that's obligatory, even in faith.

The key to understanding many issues like this is to realize that most of our 'protectinos" (cultural and organizational) are multi-tiered and many-faceted ... i.e. it takes the failure of several safeguards and controls for a fatal mishap to happen. Some are so common that we CALL them "common sense" but that's just another name for something learned over time due to having such mishaps.

VERY often, the 'failure' of a safeguard is due to some deliberation on the part of an 'interest' that has something to gain by the circumvention. Embezzlement, political corruption, and even speeding in a motor vehicle share the common feature of "something to gain." It has become almost banal to say that 'Greed' is a Deadly Sin ... and all such circumventions are, imho, an example of this.

I'm just not going to assume that a one-sided news account is the correct version.
There are a lot of missing details.
BTW, hope you are feeling better.:hug:

... I agree that it's reasonable and intelligent to remain open-minded regarding the possibility of additional information and understand that determination of facts in the face of conflicting reports is the job of a jury. At the same time, there's very few instances of accidental or health-related death where SOME allocation of blame to the victim can't be ascribed. But that's part of forming "community" and social structures - to provide a "safety net" for EVERY member because we ALL make mistakes and behave foolishly at least sometimes. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure ... does NOT (and never has) stopped us from investing in cures. Nowhere in my definition of "liberal" or "freedom" is there a call for widespread protective custody. If we're to convert our nation into one massive guarded camp for the "protective custody" of the vast majority, I would view that, or any approach to that, as antithetical to Liberty. The "deal" we make is to both Protect Liberty and come to the aid of our neighbors, without prejudice.

My SOLE interest in INFORMING others about the possible consequences of their choices is to equip them to make better choices - WITHOUT ever condemning them for not doing so. I'm "pro-choice" in a multitude of ways above and beyond pregnancy. Unless there's mens rea and harm to another, I steadfastly refuse to 'penalize' another either preemptively or retroactively when the consequences of their choice is ALREADY onerous.

That hasn't been established in this case.

A poisonous snake bit a woman who later died. That's the hinge of the narrative.

The hinge of the legal case subsequent to that narrative is to date uninitiated. The hospital's remarks are not known except for the brief press release and standard statement.

It is untoward to assume the medical personnel were guilty of wrong-doing without knowing they were guilty of wrong-doing, and no one on this board knows that.

received.

You also don't know the caliber of care the attendant hospital personnel provided. You also don't know the severity of her condition SAVE for the allegation of wrong-doing on the part of the Plaintiffs, hr surviving family.

You don't know jack about this case.

The court process and the investigation that precedes it will likely amplify the position of the Defendants. The discovery phase might be quite enlightening.

How odd that you aren't taking that into account.

established, that clinician will be liable.

If no wrong-doing is established, the Long suit will properly protect that licensed clinician.

As suggested earlier, that is how the system works.

You are beholden to that same system as Dr. Wilson.

And unlike Dr. Wilson, you were not there.

YOU'RE HEALED!!!!

Does the hospital have a better insurance plan?

lack of prompt disclosure regarding religious beliefs caused the death.
If someone is stupid enough to play with poisonous snakes in the name of religion, it is not a far leap to assume that they might believe God will heal them which could cause a reluctance of the hospital staff to initiate PROMPT treatment.
Interfering with that WOULD justify a legitimate lawsuit unless a restraining order was in effect.
And, before you say it, Jehovah's Witnesses DO come to the hospital when they are sick and even when needing blood is making them sick, they will refuse it.
Also, would have to wonder how long THEY waited before seeking treatment--or if an ambulance was dispatched?
Personally, people in the ER see MUCH more amusing things than this (freaky items shoved in freaky places, etc). I have a hard time believing they were laughing at someone who was turning blue.
This entire story sounds like a load of horse shit.

something about this family's story doesn't ring true.

proceed accordingly.

I believe we will indeed be hearing from the defense.

Unless you mean that the media won't cover it.

:rofl:
You are completely wrong.
I have seen many a person arrive in the ER alive WITH THE STANDARD OF CARE BEING MET that went out of the hospital feet first.
You're argument is downright ridiculous.

In your "lengthy" practice...have you EVER seen a patient refuse treatment?
Do you think it is beyond a reasonable doubt that the woman was bit and refused to go to the hospital because of her beliefs--yet was loaded up by family members reluctantly and taken to the hospital and when she got there, refused to get out of the car NECESSITATING triage in the parking lot?
Maybe I should make myself clear.
I DO NOT believe the story as written. I'm glad that you do--but it doesn't ring true.
Not one iota. There is missing information. Why was the woman in the parking lot???Nurses do not generally do parking lot triage unless there are extraordinary circumstances. AND, if the family was worried about swelling and difficulty breathing, WHY didn't they come by ambulance?
There is A LOT of missing information in the story as presented.
It is a sensationalist news story.
By the way, did you know it was against the law in Kentucky to handle snakes in this manner? A misdemeanor.

I wonder--if you are a doctor--how you immediately jump on a bandwagon when both sides haven't weighed in and there are some clearly conflicting details absent?
It is interesting, nonetheless, that you would. You should KNOW that occasionally, some patients lie. Their families lie.
Or--they do not perceive what is happening around them because they do not understand.
Either way, it is very interesting that a physician would jump to such a rash conclusion without all of the evidence.

which MIGHT have made her reluctant to seek help. You surely have heard of reasonable doubt, haven't you?

I don't have the facts. Neither do you, yet, you are ready to convict these healthcare workers.

And by the way, unsure of where you practice, but in small rural hospitals...it is STILL unusual for them to be triaged in the parking lot. Sorry to burst your bubble. I have done agency work all over Texas and that is pretty consistent. UNLESS there are extraordinary circumstances, the patient is triaged in the hospital.

The point is, most of this entire conversation is pure speculation. We don't have the facts, yet, you feel very comfortable blaming healthcare workers for this.

There is one thing for sure. I am sure glad I don't work with you and, you are one of the few docs in my career that I would REFUSE to take a telephone order from.

:eyes:

snake generated.

Toxicity to blood ratio determines the body's response to rattlesnake toxin, does it not?

How do we know the age of the snake, its size, the concentration of the neurotoxin?

You are making an assumption that the medical team is negligent. IMO you don't know that. The court process will determine whether the hospital was at fault.

There is also the hinge of involving snakes in religious practices. I can't stop this woman from belonging to or participating in a congregation that literally interprets the passage from MARK. But I can assert that it's a damned stupid thing to do.

The hospital's legal arm will be shortly engaged in a defense of its personnel. My very strong guess is that the woman's case will be more closely scrutinized than the current article offers.

Downthread I offer this:

“While Marymount Medical Center is precluded by law to disclose Ms. Long’s protected health information, in response to statements made by the media we can reveal that Ms. Long was triaged, placed in a room and attended to by a physician immediately upon her arrival,” Marymount’s statement said.

“In addition, initiation of the transfer request to a higher level of care to the University of Kentucky Medical Center was appropriate and done in a timely manner in accordance with the law and the hospital’s policies,” the statement said.

http://www.sentinel-echo.com/local/local_story_317222948.html

--which includes the hospital's statement.

It does appear that the Plaintiffs' allegations will be challenged.

grateful for that circumstance.

Are you a citizen hereof in good ol' God-Save-America?

If you are you have a duty to serve on juries when called.

I don't want you on mine, that's for sure. You've condemned the quality of Ms. Long's medical treatment without one iota of evidence. Your position is a guess and you've been stubboren and stingy about admitting that.

When Frist observed Schiavo via videotape he was roundly ridiculed on this website and properly so.

You're shooting from the hip. Without evidence delineating what is alleged, you have declared guilt on the part of hospital personnel. You don't know Faith Howard. You don't know Dr. Wilson. You weren't there.

Is it just me, or was that one particularly apologetic to a very dangerous and even deadly religious practice?

Snake-handling- even when connected to a religion- should be outlawed. The animal has no say, does not know it is part of a religious ceremony, and is in fact a wild animal that may meet the definitions of an exotic pet in some areas.

This is one religious "freedumb" I cannot abide. It needs to be stopped outright, as this case proves.

Appalachian states, according to one reporter's account in the August (GA) CHRONCLE article downpost.

In most states in it is illegal, except in West Virginia, where no statute prohibits the practice. And of course you are exactly right -- the animals have no say and have these religious rituals forced upon them. The fundies are doing an incredibly sloppy job interpreting the New Testament and a cruel job of turning animals into props.

Dr. Wilson was the clinician in charge. Faith Howard was the on-duty nurse. Short of someone actually being there, I just don't see how guilt of innocense can be established.

An investigation may clarify the points in question, but until the facts are confirmed I think it's reckless to nail the attending physician and the hospital staff.

The church, I notice, has not signed on as a Plaintiff in the case.

These snakes are "rounded up"? They aren't bred?

Are there laws regarding the capture of wild animals in WV?

In addition to having snakes illegally in Kentucky as they did, they appear to have held their ceremony on the Holy Spirit's off-night.

Accoreding to that one article, the snakes are brought in from other snakes. That isn't to say that there aren't some that are bred -- it's just that I don't know where they get them except I wish they'd leave the animals alone.

If a majority are brought in from other states, that means on a foggy mountain highway some evening the cargo van passing you on the road could be laden with timber rattlers, and none of them too pleased about being transported.

... the suit frivolous and an example of tort abuse. The Yahoo GOP at the base would be on the side of the woman's family.

I love how DU has degenerated in its so-called librul compassion to the point where I actually defend snake-handlers of all people.

And by "love" I mean "am completely saddened and disgusted by".

serve as a factual narrative. The court process will determine the facts and a decision will be rendered based on those findings.

Most children who live where rattlesnakes live are taught very early to leave them alone.

It's real good advice.

They weren't handling the snakes in the church, were they?


ETA: Apparently, they were. Wow!

So, what is the purpose of snake handling in any church? I honestly don't get it.

Rattlesnakes.

Which are poisonous.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers.html


This suit alleges wrong-doing on the part of the medical team but the legal process has not been held and is only in the very initial phase. We don't yet know if the medical personnel delayed treatment or otherwise were negligent. All we know now for sure that a woman is dead following a bite by a rattlesnake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling

East London Church is specifically mentioned as a "Snake Handling Church", so presumably has a permit. Otherwise, the practice is illegal in Kentucky.

Interesting: "If a worshipper is bitten, poisoned, or burned during the services, believers explain that individual lacked faith, has sin(s) unrepented for in their life, is not filled with the Holy Spirit, or that it was a message from God, either to teach them suffering or to demonstrate to those lacking faith in the ceremony that the poison is real. Few seek medical attention after being bitten. While children attend the services, the worshippers strongly deny that any of them have been bitten."

Sorry, but this kind of ritual is whacked.

process may convict or exonerate the hospital, but the ritualistic use of poisonous snakes is the source of the controversy.

Without the snake, there's no lawsuit, and without a pack of fundie nutjobs, there's no snake.

often literally interpret the serpent passage from that gospel, and behold -- there's rattlesnakes in their church.

This is a wild bunch of folks.

The hospital has not issued a statement yet.


http://www.kentucky.com/454/story/224771.html
Snakebite victim's family sues
BLAMES HOSPITAL, NURSE AND DOCTOR
By Bill Estep
BESTEP@HERALD-LEADER.COM

<snip>
According to the lawsuit, on the way to Marymount, someone in the vehicle called 911 at 7:46 p.m.; a dispatcher connected the call to the hospital, and the driver asked for an air ambulance to fly Long to Lexington. Hospital employees assured the Long family a helicopter was available.

A nurse met Long and those with her in the parking area outside the emergency room. Rather than take Long in right away, the nurse engaged Long and her family "in a lengthy and time-consuming series of questions" that went far beyond getting information needed to treat the snakebite, the lawsuit states.

After being taken into the hospital at 8:09 p.m., Long said she was having trouble breathing, and asked for oxygen. Hospital employees gave her a portable, oscillating fan as they allegedly "snickered and made derogatory comments" to employees -- and Long's family -- about the religious beliefs and circumstances under which she was bitten.

Her blood pressure dropped; her heart rate went up; her neck, face and tongue swelled; and she went into shock. However, a doctor failed to properly treat her and did not put in a tube to help her breathe, according to the lawsuit.

At 8:28 p.m., hospital personnel contacted the air ambulance service. When the helicopter arrived 12 minutes later, the crew asked the doctor to put in a tube to help Long breathe, but the doctor said her airway was not the problem and told the flight crew to get her to Lexington quickly, the suit says.

Long's heart stopped on the way. She was pronounced dead at 10:50 p.m. at the University of Kentucky Medical Center.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers.html


The source passage from MARK is cited and a good narrative summary of these congregations is offered.

the snake is, after all, a snake. All the religion you gots ain't gonna change its nature (a nature divinely ordained by god, if you will).

And yet, these are the people who think we are nuts in San Francisco for going out in a prom dress once a year. Yeesh.

And this story is at the top of my current absurdity list (just above that stupid Laura Ingram video I just saw).

I'm still in recovery from having deliberately cut off my right hand with a table saw just to test the Lord.


I'm sorry. That's inaccurate. I didn't cut off my hand to test the Lord.

But I do have a bad case of carpal tunnel from pushing myself recently on the computer.

I don't know what made me say such a thing...wait. I know. It's my love affair with absurdity.

:eyes:

“While Marymount Medical Center is precluded by law to disclose Ms. Long’s protected health information, in response to statements made by the media we can reveal that Ms. Long was triaged, placed in a room and attended to by a physician immediately upon her arrival,” Marymount’s statement said.

“In addition, initiation of the transfer request to a higher level of care to the University of Kentucky Medical Center was appropriate and done in a timely manner in accordance with the law and the hospital’s policies,” the statement said.

http://www.sentinel-echo.com/local/local_story_317222948.html

how time works for people that play with deadly snakes and drink poison?

is sorely lacking in day-to-day analyses of events. "Who is to say how time works" for people who are on the far-flung frontiers of human community?

These folks are exiles. I can't say I want to index their grievances which accumulated to the point where they're twirling rattlesnakes.

The court proceeding will move forward as any action might, but the threshold interest in this case is still the folks and the snakes.

but does it cause time expansion or warping of time? Anyone here know? I would think it would be like taking a hit of LSD.

Yes, the court case will be interesting. I just hope it doesn't turn into a media circus.

And Christ knows we'd all be elevated by hearing Nancy Grace's take on the matter.

Nancy Grace... :rofl:

it implies they are a lower level facility not equipped to handle critical patients.
The hospital I presently work at is the same.
Because of fog, rain, etc, I have seen it take upwards of 8 hours to get a transport team here when they have to come by ground ambulance to take a critical patient.

To ignore science in favor of voodoo mumbo jumbo, she's lucky she's alive

Ahhh the culling of the herd is such a tough process...

She died at the hospital.

Family of Woman Bitten by Snake During Church Service Suing Hospital Where She Died

Besides that, a big :thumbsdown: to your statement that the victim "deserved all the riddicule she got".

And I stand by what I said - people who forsake science and reason for fairy tales dig their own graves. It's about time we stopped giving these kind of people an "aw shucks" and a free pass.

Not that snake handling should be banned, mind you. The kind of suckers who would fall for that are not the kind of people who's DNA we want mingling around the gene pool.

folks who eat at McDonalds........ clearly we should let everyone who does something dumb just DIE. It's the progressive, liberal way!


:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

do THOSE people deserve to die too? i hope you never do something stupid that causes you injury...you might have to exclude yourself from treatment so that the herd can be properly culled...

sP

I'm not seeing evidence that negligence on their part caused her death.

seems to think this is just 'culling the herd'...I never said anything about hospital staff 'wanting' her to die...

sP

to me that Ms. Long's survivors have a philosophical conundrum on their hands.

Those who belong to churches which sanction snake-handling believe that the bite of a rattlesnake will not kill them. On one hand this is an article of their personal faith and on the other it suggests that they aren't very good at earth science. Deaths are more rare from rattlesnake bites, but do occur, and collateral biophysical damage can be extensive.

If Ms. Long's God was working through the author of the passage in MARK in which snake-handling is mentioned, there appears to be a disconnect between the vehemence of her belief that that is a true passage and the fact that she was struggling to breathe following the snake bite.

I wasn't there and can't speak to the events. Someone there might have ridiculed her personal faith, or not.

Perhaps the trial will sort this out.

it is 'because your faith was lacking,' at least according to the practitioners that I have read about. I think this is at worst a case of negligence on part of the hospital staff and at best a simple fact that she, due to the type of bite received, was simply beyond saving...unfortunately for all involved it WILL take a trial to determine who is at fault in this death.

sP

kind of time-line, then set the events against the time-line and evaluate the clinical treatment Ms. Long received against that.

I'm glad I'm not involved in the case!

And this kind of stupidity. Everyday average stupidity would be things like walking up past the safe rung of a ladder or driving down the median or shoulder to pass traffic. This is because the stupid person in question is taking a calculated risk - he or she knows what they are doing is dumb and is doing it anyway. Although dumb and dangerous, it's based on a certain amount of assumptions that can be validated by science. Things such as 'no one else will be driving in the median, I hope.'

This woman, however, is practicing stupidity without reason. She believed that she was saved, and that her faith would protect her from the snakes. I would have forgiven her the stupidity if this happened in the 16th century or dark ages. But this is not the dark ages. We know from science that faith plays no factor in safety around snakes, and that its all in the handling of said snake. Grasp them by the head, and they can't bite you. Grasp them by the tail and you're a goner.

Its about time we stopped being so sensitive that we give free passes to idiots who trust their cult leaders over verified, tested truths.

yes, she was doing something monumentally stupid...snake handlers are ALWAYS at higher risk than those who are doing the average stupid thing here and there. However, there is nothing different, calculated risk wise, than the person standing on the top rung of a ladder (I actually knew someone who died from a fall off a ladder, oddly enough). She had reason to believe what she was doing was dangerous, and took the calculated risk that she would not be bitten (or if she was the Gawd would heal her, I guess).

Look, I think it was stupid too...stupendously stupid. But faith that you can balance on the top rung of a ladder, or drive the wrong way on the freeway or use your tongue as a circuit bridge to test a 220 circuit and survive are really just as dangerous as her beliefs.

You don't want to give this lady a pass, then don't give one to that guy who rides his motorcycle without a helmet either...both are a leap of faith!

sP

and was just as stupid. I don't give him a pass, but I don't think the government should stop him either.

However, that woman's stupidity comes from an indoctrination process that is much more malevolent than the biker who just wants the feel of wind in his hair. That process, religion, is given a free pass. We're supposed to respect her beliefs, even though she couldn't produce an ounce of evidence to support her claims. I have no respect for that. She lives in the 21st century. We don't do bloodlettings anymore.

in the name of religion without being bitten...could that, to her, be evidence of a claim? I think it might. The guy on the bike with no helmet believes that his skill will protect him...sort of the same to me.

Look, I don't disagree with you that she took a risk and bet on a 2000 year old text that really didn't COMMAND her to pick up snakes...if she believes it was a command then she should have had a shot of strychnine while she was at it. I do respect her belief. I respect the belief of the other religions out there and even the cults that would be deemed somewhat wacky. They have a right to believe as they will. And as I have no more concrete evidence of God than they do, I really cannot say a lot to it. Does that mean I would practice as they do? Uh, no. As long as they don't inflict their faith on me, I am fine with it.

She should deserve proper medical care, just as much as the guy with the crushed left side of his head cause he wouldn't wear a helmet because he believed he was sufficiently skilled to avoid that 92 year old lady driving the four ton automobile that did not 'see' him when she turned left in front of him...

sP

Edit to fix some grammar...this in no way indicates that above post is error free... :-)

She did something stupid and she got killed as a result.

Sometimes this place is nothing more than the mirror image of Free Republic. Like right now, for example.

Going in front of a military bulldozer with no visibility is stupid.

Now don't get me wrong, neither Corrie nor the Religious Freekazoid deserved to die, but when they do it's a bit less tragic than someone who dies in an auto accident. Just my opinion.

this thread. Which of us here has not done at least one stupid thing that
could of killed us? I am deeply saddened by the bigotry that
permeates this thread. We know nothing about this woman other than the circumstances
of her death. I would rather hold her in compassion than judgment.

that could have gotten me killed.

Some people here need to read a bit about the lives of people involved in snake handling. They are, almost without exception, poor, isolated, and powerless people who are drawn to their faith because it gives them a sense of vindication and power.

Here's a photo of Mr. Chafin with rattlesnakes in a quick diablog:

http://godsrbored.blogspot.com/2007/09/fistful-of-rattlesnakes.html

Especially this part:

"When snake fangs enter skin, nasty things happen. Please keep that in mind if your deity asks you to do it.

Most deities don't make such requests, and even more of them wouldn't put it into writing. So please feel free to search for a new deity if yours asks you to do something you know to be harmful to yourself or others."

...my first thought was how entertaining it would be to watch PETA go after these people. :popcorn:

Seriously, though, a lawsuit? I knew some people who knew some people back in VA and they always wanted to stay secluded and out of the sinful secular world as much as possible. They'd view hiring a lawyer as WORSE than picking up a rattlesnake.

lawyers and doctors both, to whom the Long Plaintiffs have turned for remedy.

And the snake is undefeated.

the fact that they're snake handlers makes me less inclined to trust in their ability to accurately recount an event-- particularly something concerning medical procedures.

If the woman died due to the hospital's negligence, then they should pay-- but the family's account has to be taken with a grain of salt.

They expect to be bitten, but expect to survive, due to their faith. That's what is unusual here.

superior to rattlesnakes. I don't feel they are imbued with some heightened role and I kind of hate that they're used as props in these churches.

There's some consolation that this is an extremely small percentage of folks.

???

:eyes:

:silly:

Far too many peeps have died because of ignorance...this snake stuff is needless and uncalled for....

http://chronicle.augusta.com/headlines/062996/062996serpent.html

Excerpt:

_ _ _ _ _

Within the Holiness faith is a minority of churches whose members handle snakes and ``serpents.'' Mr. Evans is one of an estimated 100 snake-handlers at some 35 churches and numerous converted gas stations and dwellings scattered throughout Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky and Indiana. The majority of these handlers firmly believe scripture instructs them not only to handle snakes but to drink strychnine and handle fire.

Two hours after Mr. Evans was bitten by the rattler, Franklin County EMS technician Mike Smith got the call. When he and his partner arrived, they found Mr. Evans in the bathroom of a friend's trailer adjacent to the 16-by-33-foot tent where he had been preaching to a crowd of 25.

Nauseated and slumped over the toilet, Mr. Evans told the EMTs that he wanted to stay and let the Holy Spirt take over.
_ _ _ _ _

What's wrong with people? My husband once went to a church where they handled snakes....he went just because he wanted to see what the deal was. When they found out they had a guest the snakes didn't come out.

...there was some snark from the staff, and in retribution, the surviving whackos are making up the negligence story.

:think:

In the current on-line issue of Natural History Magazine is this piece:

http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/master.html?http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/features/0700_feature.html

(excerpt below)

- - - - -

Rattlesnake venom is not a simple poison. The snake’s venom glands, located at the rear of the upper jaw and connected by ducts to its pair of hollow fangs, produce a complex brew of toxic peptides, polypeptides, and enzymes. In the venom, these toxins are combined in differing proportions that vary throughout a species’ range and even during an individual snake’s lifetime. Rattlesnakes harbor so many biochemical mixtures for venom that toxinologists who analyze the stuff confront a range of variations rather than a standard formula for each species. Some of this variability seems to reflect recent changes in the venom of certain rattlesnakes, from the hemotoxic and proteolytic type (which affects blood and other tissues) to the neurotoxic type (which attacks the nervous system). The first type hasn’t changed into the second; rather, the proportion of neurotoxins in the mix appears to have increased in some areas of the country. Consequently, victims may now receive a significant dose of both types of poison from a single bite.

Death from a neurotoxic bit can occur in as little as ten minutes and is usually caused by paralysis of the diaphragm.
- - - - -

If I can find this on the world wide web my guess is that the hospital's defense team can, too.

Where I live...it was abnormally wet this year. We had much larger wildlife populations, ranging from mosquitos, to skunks, to coyotes, to pheasants, and to rattlesnakes. In the spring, we vacationed in south dakota, and i hoped to see a rattlesnake or 3 in the wild. I searched, turned over rocks, walked the badlands, and never did I see one.

A month later 1/4 mile from home, we had these all over the place:

Crotalus viridis - Prairie Rattlesnake


(unfortunately, whenever we have a camera with us, it seems as if it tips snakes off to our being in the area, so we never seem to get our own pics)

We live on 5 miles of nearly unmaintained dirt road, but it does see alot of farm traffic and grain trucks.
Therefore, whenever we drive anywhere during warm temperatures, we always drive slow and have a long blunt stick with us to help them off the road.

What does this have to do with the article you might ask? Well, I see it like this:

I know that in my wanting to keep these beautiful creatures from being crushed under the tire of a vehicle, or killed deliberately by those in the area that apparently think taking of the head and the rattle as a trophy is cool, that someday, I may get bitten.

Every time I shoo one off the road, I am conscious of this. If I get bitten, I bear at least some of the responsibility for making that choice. If in the course of enacting the choice I make, I get bitten, I open myself up to potential health problems, complications, and even mis/mal practice.

That does NOT excuse malpractice, but it does show that I do indeed have the option of not opening myself up to it through chosing differently. Speaking only for myself, I will have no regrets even if I do get bit. Protecting these critters is worth it in my view.

I have very mixed feelings about this whole topic.

Malpractice is unacceptable, yet I feel there is more to it than that.

trying to keep them free of truck tires.

It doesn't hurt to remind myself that the critters were likely here before we were.

All of them deserve prompt, appropriate, nondiscriminatory medical treatment when they get hurt.

Affirm. Def. #2 your family did not pray hard enough
affirm Def. #3 Stupidity is not a basis for a lawsuit.

the one thing we can agree on is that it took the family less time to find an attorney than it did to get the patient to a health center.

Did this church have a simple snake bite kit available in the event the snake acted like a snake? Even young Boy Scouts know how to make the necessary incisions and attach a suction cup. That could have, if applied immediately, reduced the toxin load from the strike.

Odd isn't it that people who scoff at medical science...or any science for that matter...rush for the science when they screw up.

How, for example, was the woman gotten into the vehicle that took her to the health center? Was she carried? Did she walk(bad idea)?

The parking lot scenario seems strange, but the reporters did not seem anxious to go into detail about what was a critical step.

Amazing how DU can come unglued about such a practical matter. The first caregivers should have been members of the church.

Since we do not have the facts, other than just general statements, how can we(sarcasm)make any judgements. Some here already have the doctor, nurse, and hospital tarred with a very broad brush.

One more 'sour grape' comment: Why did not the members of the church call immediately for airevac? Or even an ambulance with EMTs there to start treatment immediately?

Restate the problem: Family gets to attorney faster than health clinic.

The razor-blade-and-suction field treatment of snakebite is NOT recommended. It wastes valuable time and is not effective. Current practice recommends getting the patient to a hospital as fast as possible, which appears to have been done here.

The family did ask for an air ambulance when they called the hospital en route. The hospital appears to have waited to comply until the patient developed severe respiratory distress in the ER.

The suit alleges that when the patient developed respiratory distress and requested oxygen, she was given a small oscillating fan instead. The EMT's, when the air ambulance finally arrived, requested that the patient be intubated prior to transport. The request was denied. If either of those two allegations is proven at trial, and presumably the EMT's will be called to testify, then negligence has been demonstrated. From the law's point of view, it doesn't matter whether the ER staff were ridiculing her religious beliefs or playing checkers while she deteriorated--if they withheld treatment, they weren't doing their jobs. In such a case, they should lose their licenses, and the hospital should face a heavy monetary judgement.

snake bite. If the family can prove that they didn't give her prompt care for a life threatening case they can win this. I say this as an employee of a hospital in the business office. There would be plenty of time for doctors and nurses afterward to tell her how stupid she was to be playing around with a deadly snake.