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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:47 AM
Original message
The appeal of the handgun
What makes gun ownership so attractive to Americans?

My guess is that the weakest, wimpiest person can stand up to and defeat the strongest, bravest opponent, if the wimp has a gun and the brave man does not.

Guns level the playing field. JFK might have been powerful, but he could not defend himself from wimps with guns.

The strongest person can be taken down by the weakest person, if the weakling is packing heat. There is no defense, not even being armed. There is very little defense from a unprovoked bullet in the back of the head.

Americans like being strong and powerful. The handgun is the greatest tool to make one strong and powerful. Packing heat and not fearing death is a powerful combination.

I don't know how the progressive, liberal wing of our party can deal with this. Perhaps we should just embrace the appeal of the handgun.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. We should if we want to make in-roads in the South and West.
Frankly, most of the gun prohibition arguments I hear are entirely philosphical and not based on any actual public policy. What I mean by that is one notes a gun murder and then suggests a policy not directly related to it but rather a statement on how society "should" be rather than how it really is.
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. "wimps with guns" shot JFK?
Which wimps were those? The wimpy Mafia soldiers? The wimpy CIA agents? Or that lone former wimpy U.S. Marine named Oswald?

Nice spin.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. not sure, but not just Oswald
CIA perhaps.
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. One guy says Joe DiMaggio shot JFK too.
Read the book "100 Bullets." The author doesn't specifically name him - he's an old baseball player in a hospital - but he got one of the suitcases with an untraceable gun and 100 untraceable bullets, when JFK had Marilyn Monroe killed with an injection under her breasts. And according to the "Minuteman" who gave him the suitcase, he and Oswald were only two of the seven shooters in Dallas.

Listen, if you're going to play tinfoil hat conspiracy theories on us, you might as well go for one of the best, and "100 Bullets" is one of the best.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. oswald acted alone
:eyes:
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
90. It appears you are right.
It isn't a satisfying theory that one man with a $15 piece of junk rifle got off the shots, but no one has disproved it yet. There are thousands trying to prove otherwise. Most of the arguments go with the "common sense" and the superior reasoning powers of the individual making the argument. I'm willing to be proved wrong, but so far no one has convinced me.
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
95. Not according to Agent Graves. Read "100 Bullets."
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
92. 100 Bullets rocks
That was on of my favorite issues.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
85. I must also add the wimp didn't use a handgun.
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NYVet Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. As a progressive gun owner, I take minor exception to your post.
Specifically with the following statement.

Americans like being strong and powerful. The handgun is the greatest tool to make one strong and powerful. Packing heat and not fearing death is a powerful combination.

I "pack heat" because as a law abiding citizen, I feel that a right that is not exercised is often challenged by the government. Will I use it in self defense? Only if other means are not available or have failed.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. why own a gun?
1. It is legal to do so.
2. It is a powerful tool.
3. If you don't own a gun, you might be at a "disadvantage". There is no benefit to being unarmed, there is a great benefit to being armed.

When the brown shirts kick in your door to take away your uncool niece, it will be to your benefit to be pack heat.

I think that the gov. would take away all of our rights if we don't fight to keep them.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. I have said it before...just get an alarm or call a cop.
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. "just get an alarm or call a cop"
So rather than defend yourself you are content to call someone else with a gun (cop) to come and save you? Lets hope Dunkin Doughnuts didn't just pull some fresh ones out of the oven! You may end up waiting a bit for your hired gun to save ya!
You do know they are under NO obligation to help you, right? In my case there are four deputies patrolling the entire county I live in. I am not going to wait for help if my life is in danger.
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Take a look at your local cops, sometime.
Then realize that's what stands between you and a criminal taking your life. Even the ones who are competent, can't be everywhere.
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
69. "When seconds count.... the police are just minutes away." nt
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
50. If the brown shirts break down your door, you'd better have an equal number
of your own family armed to deal with them and their government issue guns. Then, when they come back tomorrow in an armored tank, you had better have the firepower to bring that tank down. Then, when they call in an air strike...

well, you get my drift here. I know it is all so romantic and dashing and Hemingwayesque. I remember the old Hollywood movies, too. And I've read some damned good novels involving the good people fighting the armed government tyranny. That's about as far into fantasyland as I'll go, though...
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TheFriendlyAnarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
88. Aye, but think about it. The Iraqi's have less resources than us, and they aren't
doing too bad. It doesn't matter if the enemy has a tank if you have a shaped copper charge with a kilo of high-explosive behind it.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think you fall for the Freudian bull shit way too much.
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 12:15 PM by Mountainman
It's like all the stuff about compensating for a small penis. That line of thinking has been debunked a long time ago.

You may have some object that you are glad you own but that doesn't mean you are compensating for the lack of something else.

Some people own guns as a way to have perceived power over others and I am thinking of the gangs here. Some live in fear and having a gun is a result of that.

But most people who own guns like them just as others like cars or what ever their thing is. It's nothing more than that.

You have to look at the different types of guns out there. That tells you something about why a person owns it. There are hunting rifles, weapons used for war, target pistols to name a few.

I think like a lot of left wing political correctness the idea that people own guns to compensate for some deficit in their personality or something else is just a very stupid, ignorant and self serving idea.

On edit: I think most anti gun people know very little about guns and the different types of guns and the different reasons for owning them. They lump all guns and all gun owners into one class.
That shows the ignorance of these people and the fallacy of their intents. It's that kind of narrow "I know what's best" thinking that hurts the left.

Trying to do something about gun violence is a noble endeavor but it isn't a one size fits all exercise.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
79. Good answer.
I never thought much about owning a gun until I saw a customized Browning Hi-Power in a gun store while I was there with a friend. I just thought it was a work of art. And a cool toy. I don't think of it for protection or power or any of those things. I shoot at paper mostly, but old fruits and vegetables are cool to shoot at out in the desert.

Eventually I got a Browning. I just like it. Had it hard-chromed and set up. I feel the same about my guitars. It's a cool machine.


--IMM
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's a male thing. nt
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FyurFly Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Tell that to my wife n/t
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Women are FAR less likely to carry...
than are men.

Women face different dangers - people they know - than men under circumstances one is less likely to use a firearm.

Rifles don't count. Everyone in rural areas needs one.
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NYVet Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. I really need to introduce you to my girlfriend...
She has fired more weapons than I have. Also owns more also.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. In rural areas Upstate, I'd ...
carry too.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
43. Every woman I know
owns a gun. Perhaps it is where you live.
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WGS Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. I assume that you
have never been to Arizona, the CCW classes are full of women...
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
49. Unfortunately, women are the ones who really should be carrying.
Or at least a knife. The mentality being, 'If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me.'
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Very true.
But less practical when someone you know is attacking you. You hesitate that key half second...
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. This has to be dumbest post of the day.
I suppose little old ladies who carry handguns in their purses or keep them in their homes because they live in high crime areas are "wimps"?
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Nah!
The dumbest post so far was another thread about the brady bunch and got locked.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. in your example the old lady is "weak". The bully thug has power over here
The little old lady feels stronger cause she can take the life of a strong bully thug.

She couldn't kill the thug without a gun.

The gun doesn't prevent her from being a victim of an unprovoked surprise attack. She feels protected, but that is just a perception.

What do you think the appeal of packing heat is?
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. not a perception
the little old lady with a gun scenario: even with an unprovoked surprise attack, at least she still has a chance to protect herself.

For me, single female living alone, almost an old lady, owning a handgun is about protecting myself. I won't hesitate to use it if the occasion arises.

Haven't got one yet ... trying to figure out what models are appropriate, need to do more homework.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
61. Helpful site, and helpful DU thread...
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 08:37 PM by benEzra
Haven't got one yet ... trying to figure out what models are appropriate, need to do more homework.

This site may be helpful for someone who is starting from square one (lots of info about safety as well):

http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx

Very good thread in the DU Guns forum on this topic as well; a couple of responses to the question:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=151574&mesg_id=151580
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=151574&mesg_id=151575

That entire thread is very informative.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. I wish I could afford a weapon or two.
I'd lock them away just in case. The last thing I would want is a country where the government is the only entity with weapons.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
57. pawnshops have layaways
and lots of them are staffed by knowledgeable salespersons. Just get an idea of what you want to spend and then go from there. Take a friend that has some firearms know-how along, he/she can help with advice. Pawnbrokers usually have some items that are collecting dust that can be put on layaway for less than usual rates.

good luck on your decision.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. What's wrong with an equalizer?
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. nothing at all my friend
just trying to figure out the appeal of the gun.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. It Isn't an Equalizer
If you have a gun and the other guy doesn't, that isn't anywhere close to equal.

If you both have guns, it all comes down to coordination and reaction time,
just like it always did, but the stakes are higher.

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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. You make it sound like leveling the field is a bad thing
You're also tying that idea into "unprovoked" shootings (JFK, "back of the head"), which is not usually the case when a weaker person must defend against a stronger one.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. that was not my attention my friend
I am trying to figure out the appeal of the gun.:kick:
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I replied earlier in this thread
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 01:03 PM by awoke_in_2003
but if you are asking about appeal, what about the appeal of a nice graphite handled Stanley hammer. Why do I find the hammer appealing? Because I need to do some remodeling in the home, and the graphite handle makes it nice to swing longer. It is a nice tool. A gun is also a tool. I will say there are some out there that lust at the thought of a gun, but they would be in the minority. I believe most that own one own it for one reason: to protect their families should trouble arrive.

on edit: there is one flaw with my analogy. While I enjoy using my hammer, I hope I NEVER have to use my .45 for its intended purpose.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. No matter how I respond to this I will be wrong. nt
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. Nothing Level About It
If you have a gun and the other guy doesn't, that isn't a level playing field!

If you both have guns, it comes down to reaction time and coordination,
just like it always did, but it is more likely that someone will end up dead,
and considerably more likely that it will be an innocent bystander.


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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's like playing with your mustache
a subtle way to masturbate in public.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. handguns = useful tools
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 12:46 PM by aikoaiko

Here is the one I currently pine for.

S&W 627 .357 8-times
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. Wow, my desire to protect my family
from a possible home invasion makes me a wimp? Is my wife also a wimp because I bought her one, got her lessons, and take her to practice with it every couple of weeks, so she can protect herself when I am on a business trip? What kind of logic is that. Like it or not, there are bad people out there that wish ill upon people. Guess I should just cower in the closet, call the police, and hope they get there before I and my family are found.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. So gun rights are popular cause folks are scared of crime?
Is that what the appeal is?
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
60. rabid dogs, bears, snakes, chupacabres...
Personal safety seems to get lost in the mix, for me it rates right up there.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #60
73. Are You Going to Shoot a BEAR with a Handgun?
Edited on Thu Nov-22-07 06:24 AM by AndyTiedye
Now you have a really angry bear.

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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. well...
guess I could dial 911 and then send a few rounds in his direction. Hopefully no condors are downrange.

:)
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
22. The appeal of the gun?
My dad was never interested in guns in his life.

Until the Brady Bill passed. As soon as it looked like the government wanted to tell him what he could own, or what he couldn't own, he went out and bought several pistols, a rifle, and a shotgun. Before the background checks, before the waiting periods, before they banned "scary" guns, etc. He wanted to make sure he could exercise his rights before they were taken away.



As for myself, I'm a mechanic, both at heart and by trade. I enjoy using, working on, or improving any precision machine - and that's all a gun really is. I build engines and then drive the cars, listening to every mechanical sound they make, analyzing everything that is happening. I shoot my guns and enjoy trying this spring, or that ammunition, analyzing each change to see what makes an improvement.

I don't keep the gun locked up at home, I keep it accessible, for the simple reason that it's there. I know the odds are infinitesimal that I will ever wake up to find an intruder in my home, but if I do, how stupid will I feel knowing the intruder is between me and my gun, which is locked in my safe? As long as I have it, I might as well have it in a position to do some good...
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
86. I done the same thing, and haven't bought any since.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
24. In high-crime areas, a handgun is your only defense against getting killed.
There are still areas of this country so infested with gangs, crime and hard drugs that the cops don't dare set foot in some neighborhoods.

You expect me to call the cops if I find myself in such a place and in immediate danger? :eyes:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
38. I live in Newburgh, NY my friend
It is like Harlem, but without the Bigdog or the opportunities that result from being next to Manhattan.
:kick:
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
76. Stray Bullets are a Common Cause of Death in Such Neighborhoods
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sailor65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's because you wimps
won't let us carry Tasers anymore.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. Because if there is one thing many people want it is safety/security for their family
and selves. And when you see a lot of wackos in the world you want to be able to stop them before they harm you/loved ones.

I have a bad back and live in a gang ridden area, I could not fight off 3-4 gang members if they approached us, but with a gun I could at least stand a chance :)

I do not own a gun though. Would like to, and have in the past.

We work hard to provide, we get life insurance to protect our loved ones if we die, etc and so on. A gun is simply an extension of that safety/security for some folks.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
28. I like firearms because they are made of machined metal
In general, they represent some of the best metallurgy and manufacturing methods that were available at the time they were made. That is true whether a firearm is brand-new or hundreds of years old.

My point is that people are attracted to firearms for many different reasons. I think the best way to deal with them is the same way open-minded, tolerant people deal with everything else - If someone's activities seem strange to you but are not causing harm to you or the public, just let them be.
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. I own guns, but would rather use a taser since they won't wake the neighbors. n/t
nt
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
32. i don't own a gun. know why?
because I don't live in fear.
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WGS Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I think there is more to it
than "living in fear" Just because someone owns guns does not mean they are afraid.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. i didn't say they did
I was just stating that if I were going to get a gun, it would be because I was in fear of something.

I keep a small knife in my car just in case I get carjacked or something. I don't have to lock it up, either.
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
67. LOL. And what are you going to do with "a small knife" ...
... if someone walks up behind you as you open the car door and sticks a gun in your face? Ask them to please wait while you reach in the map pocket or center console or glovebox so you can retrieve your fingernail cleaner?

Why do you keep the knife if you're not afraid? You said you weren't going to live in fear. There is no reason to keep a knife if you're not afraid.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. How is a Gun Going to Help You Then?
The bad guy already has a gun pointed at your head.

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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. Good point.
Still, to say, "I don't carry a gun because I don't live in fear," and then to go on and state that you carry a knife instead comes off as sounding a bit hypocritical.

If you've ever carried a gun, you know that your situational awareness tends to go way up. The chances of anyone managing to get behind you with a gun as you open your car door are pretty slim, and if you were to see someone approaching, you could have your gun out before they could get close. The odds are extremely good that the person would no longer find you a tempting target.

Try yelling out that you have a knife in the car and see if you get the same response.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
53. Retired marine colonel I know thinks most of the gun culture ...
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 05:09 PM by MookieWilson
is crazy if they think they're going to have the poise to defend themselves from intruders, to differentiate those intruders from their housecat or family members, or the ability to defend themselves from 'the government'. He's never had one in his house.
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. Maybe the colonel should read...
... this blog, where he will see that there are MANY successful uses of handguns in a defensive role in homes every day. He may be right about defending against the government, but he's far out of touch with reality when it comes to defending against intruders.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
54. You might not.
But apparently there a number of people on DU who live in fear of guns and of law abiding people owning them.

Consequently, they try to alleviate that fear by supporting gun control measures up to and including handgun bans.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
97. Me either. The gun lovers I know personally are among the
most cowardly, fearful, and hateful people I've met. They watch too much Faux news and are convinced that every dark skinned person is out to get them and theirs, and that they could defeat the government themselves if America became a police state. Too many Bruce Willis movies, imho.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
40. I can only speak for me
but I like guns the same way as any hobbyist likes their hobby, be it model airplanes or street racer cars or whatever. I like to target shoot with them, and occasionally hunt with them. Outside of the military, I have never fired or even pointed a gun at a person. Never fired a gun at an animal that I didn't intend to eat.

But I do fire guns a lot. I occasionally read magazines about guns. I own two handguns (which are both registered and legal) and have two rifles and a shotgun at my grandparents ranch in Texas. I grew up around guns and was taught to use them responsibly at a young age. I don't see a gun as any way of leveling a playing field, and since I'm a fairly large dude with some combat training under my belt, I don't fear being bullied. I see guns as no more than tools. Happens to be a tool I enjoy using in target shooting.

Much of my argument with group of people who want to ban handguns is that their arguments often seem to stem from applying human emotion to a tool. A gun is no more evil than a dungeons and dragons book. It doesn't get happy, it doesn't get sad, it's not evil, it's not good. It does not shoot people on it's own. It does not go off on it's own (unless stored improperly, in which case, like many other tools, it becomes dangerous). It's an inanimate object. It is the manner in which that object is used that defines its purpose.

Shooting guns does not make more feel more manly or more powerful. It does make me feel good when I shoot well, but that's the pride in having and developing a skill, not in the tool.

I like to shoot guns, but my guns do not define me. I define them.
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FyurFly Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Great Post n/t
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
44. Oh look, yet another "Handguns compensate for small penises" post.
:eyes:
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. If it makes them feel enlightened, more progressive...
and instills a sense of moral superiority, who are we to burst their little bubbles?

Let them revel in their blissful ignorance if it makes them happy.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
45. JFK was a gun enthusiast who owned handguns and "assault weapons"...
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 03:09 PM by benEzra
would you suggest that he owned guns because he was a "wimp"?

A lot of the "progressive, liberal wing" OWNS guns.



Nationally, at least half of U.S. gun owners are Dems and indies.

FWIW, I wrote the following in response to a question from a non-gun owner in another thread, who had misconceptions about why people own guns, and perhaps what I said there may be pertinent here.

Contrary to popular belief, shooting is Zen, not Rambo. As I mentioned there, for most gun owners, guns and skill with them are a well-practiced martial art, a tool of personal security, a symbol and tangible reminder of political and personal freedom, a Zen-like discipline, a fun hobby, and a locus of camaraderie that crosses political, social, and ethnic lines. It is not "all about killing," or about wanting to "blow somebody away on a moment's notice," any more than serious study of Isshinryu, Tae Kwan Do, Kenpo, or Kuk Sul Won is about killing people with your bare hands, or wanting to kick people's asses. Certainly, any martial art (including the study of the gun) gives you the ability to use potentially lethal force in the gravest extreme of self-defense, but it is about much more than that.

My wife and I don't own guns out of fear, and I don't think many people do. As I have mentioned elsewhere on DU and on CGCS, the defensive utility is part of the picture for most people, certainly, but it's largely a competence thing, just like skill with any other martial art.

Here are some thoughts that I've posted before here on DU and CGCS, in no particular order.

Proficiency with firearms is a martial art just like isshinryu karate, tae kwan do, kenpo, or tai chi, and can gives a sense of accomplishment and competence just like any other human discipline. The Japanese concept of bushido applies just as much to the gun culture as to other martial arts cultures. I have some moderate experience in the Asian martial arts culture (isshinryu), and there are a lot of similarities between the gun culture and the traditional martial arts culture, and just as with empty-hand martial arts, proficiency in self-defense is a symbiotic benefit that is a worthwhile purpose in its own right.

Just as with the other martial arts, IMHO training and skill development are an end in itself, very much a Zen thing, if you will. To shoot well you must view shooting in a very Zen-like way; breath control, minimization of muscle tremors, concentration, sharp focus on the front sight, smoothness... A lot of the shooters I know also have a thing for archery, which is pretty much the same thing, and my wife did fencing for a while.

Some people pride themself on how well they can smack a small white ball with a stick on a golf course. Others pride themselves on how accurately they can shoot a firearm.

Also, I am a certifiable physics geek, and there are very few inexpensive hobbies that are more physics-intensive than rifle shooting. (Aviation is more physics-intensive, but it's not inexpensive...) Many shooters are mechanically inclined, and I'll bet the percentage of photographers and engineers among shooters is higher than in the population at large. My younger sister is a shooter and she also happens to be a professional engineer, with degrees in both engineering and mathematics.

Gun owners also tend to lean individualist rather than collectivist, and generally tend to have a high view of individual rights, though there are certainly exceptions. If you hang around most gunnies much, you'll find nearly as much disdain for free-speech restrictions and 4th-amendment violations as for the latest gun-grab attempt, and you'll find a lot of sympathy with the ACLU except for their dyslexic view of the Second Amendment. Note that individualist does NOT mean conservative; Big Brother communitarian conservatives are as antithetical to the individualist/libertarian mindset as any Big Brother communitarian liberals.

So I suppose it's also a freedom thing. The guns in my gun safe are a tangible reminder of political and personal freedom, a Zen-like discipline, a fun hobby, a tool of personal security, and a locus of camaraderie that crosses political, social, and ethnic lines.

Here's the root of the disconnect, I think. A lot of prominent gun-control activists are people who have both been impacted by criminal violence, and have not been particularly exposed to the positive side of gun ownership. I think to some degree, they have come to see "guns" as the entity who victimized them, and see gun control as a way to lash out at that enemy. That victimization by people misusing guns also taints their view of gun owners, I think, that we must somehow be either ignorant, or evil, or some selfish mixture of the two, possibly with some sort of sexual deviancy thrown in (because some of those victimized see guns as sexualized power objects). As a for-instance, Sarah Brady's husband was shot by a nut with a .22 revolver; while I don't think that justifies her attempts to ban my rifles, it at least helps me understand it. I have gotten the impression in the past that billbuckhead had some connection with the 1999 Buckhead (Atlanta area) shootings, in which a day trader murdered his wife and two kids with a hammer and then killed nine people at a brokerage firm with a couple of handguns. And I think you said that you saw somebody murdered in front of you.

I'm on the other side of the coin. My great-grandparents were married in 1900, and one of the wedding presents was a nice his-and-hers set of defensive revolvers. My grandparents grew up owning handguns, rifles, and shotguns; so did my parents. My dad had a "save" with a semiautomatic pistol in the early 1970's, when I was around 5 years old (he didn't even have to draw it; the guys who approached him late one night in rural NC saw his holstered gun, looked at each other, and left).

Like most semi-rural thirtysomething people I know, I grew up with guns, learned the rules of gun safety and marksmanship while still in elementary school, wandered the woods with a BB gun by age 10 (not hunting, just plinking), was shooting .22's regularly at 16, had a semiautomatic .223 carbine and 30-round magazine at age 18 and a handgun at age 21, and obtained a carry license at 26 or 27. I shoot recreationally and competitively (IPSC pistol and carbine). My wife, from Maine, is a shooter who owns a Glock and an SKS. My sister (who graduated with degrees in mathematics and engineering from N.C. State) is an avid shooter. Most of my coworkers and friends are shooters. Pretty much everyone I know owns guns, and no one I know personally has ever been murdered, or participated in one. I'm 36 years old, I've never participated in so much as a fistfight outside of martial arts classes, and I would never even think about hurting an innocent person.

Most gun owners haven't experienced guns as a tool of oppression, but as a tool of liberation and a symbol of freedom and camaraderie; some (like my dad) have actually had "saves" with guns, but for most of us, guns and skill with them are a well-practiced martial art, a tool of personal security, a symbol and tangible reminder of political and personal freedom, a Zen-like discipline, a fun hobby, and a locus of camaraderie that crosses political, social, and ethnic lines.

It's not "any and all guns" that are involved in criminal mayhem; it's actually a tiny subset of guns, mostly illegally possessed handguns, in the hands of a violent few. And in fairness, it's not all gun-control activists that dream up creative deceptions to try to outlaw our most valued possessions, either. I think most of us on our respective sides are not as far apart as our legislative positions on the issue would appear to make us; I think we just have a huge knowledge and communication gap (on both sides).

As I've mentioned upthread, there IS common ground to be found. The bedrock of that common ground is, NOBODY wants to see criminals misusing any guns. People who hurt other people piss me off just as much as they piss you off. We all agree that bad guys shouldn't have them. The disagreement comes in when people on your side of the issue decide to slap sweeping restrictions (AWB, handgun bans, pre-1861 capacity limits) on everybody in order to affect the bad guys (so they hope), and we respond by opposing all new restrictions to avoid having wrongheaded restrictions slapped on the good guys. Hence the impasse.

The thing is, the misuse of guns gets a hell of a lot more publicity than their responsible use. Part of that, I think, is merely ignorance on the topic from the MSM, and part of it reflects active MSM bias on the topic. But responsible use is FAR more common than misuse, just as responsible car use is far more common than drunk driving.

And I'm not kidding about shooting being Zen. The best shooting advice I have ever received is "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast." The reason Hollywood shooting is always John Freaking Rambo is that J.F. Rambo doesn't have to actually hit what he's shooting blanks at; they'll produce the "hits" in the editing room.

I shoot competitively (IDPA/IPSC style, both pistol and rifle, against the clock, 12 to 18 rounds per stage). The winner of the most recent match I competed in was a guy in his 60's who looked like a college professor, bespectacled, with a short white beard and white hair. The key to shooting well is the same as it is in any other martial art, the ability to maintain a placid mental focus in a dynamic environment; it's a mental game, and adrenaline and testosterone are hindrances, not helps.

If you lived nearby, I'd invite you to go shooting at the local range here. I think you'd find it much different than you probably imagine.
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
51. What's the appeal of owning a car?
Look at those wimps. They can't run 30 miles back and forth like I can, while carrying groceries perched on my shoulder.

"My guess is that the weakest, wimpiest person can stand up to and defeat the strongest, bravest opponent, if the wimp has a gun and the brave man does not." This sentence is so loaded, it's obvious you aren't looking for an honest conversation. A criminal is "brave"? A little old lady is automatically a "wimp"?

Look, the cliche you're referencing IS out there. There is the dude who is WAY too into guns and looks at them lovingly in a way that is just disturbing. Has all the issues of Guns and Ammo. It defines his identity. And he probably does feel little inside, and the gun is power for him. I'm not crazy about these people either. But for a whole lot of people, the gun is like the refrigerator. I have yet to see a full page spread of that appliance or a refrigerator club.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. guns are equivalent to refrigerators and cars!?!?!
that's a first for me, i'll be scratching my head over that one all afternoon
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
58. agree
i dunno how libs can deal with it either, but there it is. the left fetishizes guns as much as the right.

makes me sick, personally.

2nd amendment my ass -- it's a living document, times change, so does fire power, so should we. i'll never understand it.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Fetish?
Why do you refer to it as a fetish? I think for many, that word has a negative context. Like obsession, or gun-nut.

Does a painter who spends hours a day decorating canvas with pain have a fetish? Of course not, we call that person an artist. Does a person who meticulously crafts a suit of 14th century chain mail armor have a fetish? I don't think so, I'd call that person a blacksmith, or a metal smith, or even a dude who likes making armor.

So why is it that people who enjoy using guns in a legal manner have a fetish? Why are they "gun-nuts?" Why are they obsessed with guns?

I'll never understand it.
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Lautremont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Because the gun gives them a hard-on.
Hey - at least I didn't say anything about compensating for a small penis. That line of reasoning I reserve for Hummer drivers.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Do you really believe that?
That the average gun owner gets some sort of sexual gratification from owning a gun?

Most gun owners I know seldom use or even touch their guns. At the end of the day though, if someone wants to lay in bed naked with their AR-15, as long as they're using it and posessing it legally, doesn't hurt anyone.
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. What is it with you anti-gun people and sexual references?
It kind of makes me not want to borrow any tools from you dude. If there is such sexual symbolism in a tool that shoots bullets no way am I touching your nail gun! eeeewwwww!!!!
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Lautremont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Hey, don't shoot the messenger.
We just calls 'em as we sees 'em.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #66
75. The message is bullshit and you know it
It's just a broad-brush putdown with no facts to back it up.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #65
87. Wcross, don't egg him on
Edited on Thu Nov-22-07 07:11 PM by Tejas
<Treauvis>heh heh, you thed TOOL, heheh, I'm going to thmack you with more BS postings</Treauvis>







heh heh ;)




edit: ore thumthing like that
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. I'm adamantly anti-handgun
but my wife likes them and she doesn't have a penis.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #68
81. does she...
...own a handgun? If so, has she ever talked you into going to the range with her?

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #63
74. I've never gotten an erection from a firearm
What's your problem?
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
70. Guns are fun.
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 11:25 PM by gulliver
If you haven't gone to a firing range, rented a .357 magnum and shot at some silhouettes, I highly recommend it. Same if you have never taken a shotgun to some clay pidgeons. It's fun. No question.

I can't much get into hunting any more myself, but I have nothing against those who do. I exclude what Cheney does; that's just sick.

Own a gun responsibly, and no problems will occur. Life has risks.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
78. 20 GREAT USES FOR THE GUN IN YOUR HOUSE
20 GREAT USES FOR THE GUN IN YOUR HOUSE:

1. Settle domestic disputes
2. Settle disputes with neighbors
3. Something constructive to do while drunk/stoned
4. Hours of fun for the kids
5. Hours of fun for the neighbors' kids
6. A big help during temper tantrums
7. Chance to be judge, jury, executioner...a big man
8. Almost like having a big penis
9. Big bonanza for gun thieves
10. Surefire way to blow your dough
11. Terrify the meter man
12. Help deal with feelings of guilt, inadequacy, rage, and other honky stuff
13. Fun to fondle...and so BIG
14. "I was totally sure it wasn't loaded, Your Honor."
15. Get yourself killed in a raid, rather than merely arrested
16. You can't always be reading great literature, right?
17. Rare chance to become a murderer, get reborn as a lab animal, etc.
18. "If it's good enough for the American Nazi Party, it's good enough for me!"
19. Angry white men never screw up
20. Such a comfort when depressed.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. Why insert racial BS into this thread?



"20 GREAT USES FOR THE GUN IN YOUR HOUSE
Posted by Perry Logan
20 GREAT USES FOR THE GUN IN YOUR HOUSE:

1. Settle domestic disputes
2. Settle disputes with neighbors
3. Something constructive to do while drunk/stoned
4. Hours of fun for the kids
5. Hours of fun for the neighbors' kids
6. A big help during temper tantrums
7. Chance to be judge, jury, executioner...a big man
8. Almost like having a big penis
9. Big bonanza for gun thieves
10. Surefire way to blow your dough
11. Terrify the meter man
12. Help deal with feelings of guilt, inadequacy, rage, and other honky stuff
13. Fun to fondle...and so BIG
14. "I was totally sure it wasn't loaded, Your Honor."
15. Get yourself killed in a raid, rather than merely arrested
16. You can't always be reading great literature, right?
17. Rare chance to become a murderer, get reborn as a lab animal, etc.
18. "If it's good enough for the American Nazi Party, it's good enough for me!"
19. Angry white men never screw up
20. Such a comfort when depressed."


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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
93. When my dad was beating the hell out of my mom when I was 17
And then chased my 14-yr old sister and 13-yr old brother through the house screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you!!!", my shotgun settled that domestic dispute quite well.

Oh wait, I was supposed to wait around for the cops to arrive, 45 MINUTES AFTER WE CALLED 911!!! Oops, my bad.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
83. Guns empower the average to tell criminal thugs to lick balls (nt)
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
84. Correction: the shotgun is the greatest tool to make one powerful.
Pistol Packing Paranoids don't stand a chance in hell against a load of 00.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #84
100. Agree whole heartedly
Prefer my short barrel Mossberg 12 gage to any hand gun out there. Though I do own a 45 cal ACP and a model 10 Smith & Wesson.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
89. Both my mother and my daughter
used handguns to defend against rapists.

My grandfather trained my mother to shoot. In the 1920's while she was coming home from work at night, a thug accosted her. She fired two rounds over his head from a S&W Ladysmith .22 caliber revolver she carried in her purse. He fled.

I trained my daughter to shoot starting when she was ten years old. When she was sixteen, an intruder forced the sliding glass door of our house open and was making entry when she came into the kitchen and confronted him. He told her that he was going to rape her. She pointed a S&W model 25-2 45 acp revolver at his chest. He left. The alarm was sounding and a 60 pound black lab was in the house. Only the gun discouraged him. Had he made full entry into the house, rather than just having one foot in, she would have shot him.

Both my mother and my daughter were small women, just over five feet and less than 100 pounds. Compared to the attackers they were both small and wimpy. Thanks to Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson they both survived.

Yes, guns do level the playing field. Thank God.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #89
96. Glad to read good news.
Thanks for sharing, your short story is like a breath of fresh air.
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
91. Or maybe they're fun to shoot?
Just an idea. :shrug:
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
94. The appeal of the handgun?? Because I can't carry a 12 gauge concealed.
Other than that I would rather have a long gun.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
98. The movie industry..
Ever since it started up, it's portrayed the US as a wild and free-wheeling..libertarian utopia...

A place where might makes right, and vengeance is always sweet.. and guns are the best way to get what's "coming to you"..

want something, and someone else HAS it? Be the fastest gun or the biggest gun..

want something and you deserve? get a big gun and just take it..

feel like you've been wronged?? blast someone..


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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. EXACTLY! Movies make them look cool so american think they should have them.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. Except handguns were just as popular in the US long before movies were invented...
EXACTLY! Movies make them look cool so american think they should have them.

Except handguns were just as popular in the US long before movies were invented...


.69 caliber flintlock handgun, circa 1790-1810


Colt Paterson, 1839


Walker Colt, circa 1850

FWIW, my grandmother's parents were married in 1900, and one of the wedding gifts was a very nice matched set of small defensive revolvers intended for concealed carry (a .32 and a .22, I think).

Handguns and this country go way back...
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KingOfLostSouls Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
99. some people own guns
simply because they enjoy target shooting.

some people hunt with pistols.

some people just like the home security of owning one.


not everyone who owns a handgun is like "The Simpsons" where homer had a gun and went around shooting at everything.

"homer could you open the mayonnaise?"

*BLAM!!!*


personally I'm more afraid of conservatives with their hands on the nuclear button than I am with an american owning a handgun....
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. I fully support gun ownership too
I never meant to imply that only wimps own guns. I meant to imply that guns are tools that level the playing field.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
102. kick
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