Do you think we're right about everything?

do you think every democratic proposal will be a huge success?
Do you think if the republicans would just get out of the way, everything would be easier?

If you do your naive.

The answer lay in balance between those two outlooks.
We've had no balance these last few years and thats why things are so out of whack.
If we got our way about everything we'd go too far too, its unavoidable.


either party will always go too far
and the public will always pull them back.
Its the beauty of our system.


The election of '08 will be a giant tug back.

In fact, I think America's only hope is in getting the Republicans out of our country. They are all degenerates and traitors.

this outlook has always served me well.

nm

humility is rarer than arrogance on every street in every town.

but i do think repukes are almost invariably wrong about almost everything.

Its not enough to BE right.We've got to show 'em.
NOT show 'em how they're wrong, but show 'em why we're right.
We've got to be persuasive to millions.
We've got to convince ordinary voters beyond the shadow of a doubt.


If we fail at this second part
being right ain't worth much.

think dems are always right- but I agree that dems have to convince voters; that's what elections are about. We don't need to convince them beyond a shadow of a doubt however. Now why don't you explain what you think the republicans are right on.

we need each other far more than any of us care to admit.

The question is not about the Dems. The plain fact is that for the past seven years (if not longer) the Republicans have been wrong, wrong, wrong on every single issue that comes before them. Wrong on Iraq and Iran, wrong on healthcare, wrong on Schiavo, wrong on Social Security, stem cells, S-CHIP, secrecy, and wiretapping. Wrong on torture. Wrong on climate change. Wrong on taxes and regulation. Wrong on national security and terrorism.

And the thing is, Republicans are not just wrong in the sense of "not right". They are wrong in the sense of "consistently and repeatedly choosing the absolutely most short-sighted, foolish, dangerous, destructive, un-American policy option from among all available options."

Individual right-wing neocons like kristol and others distinguish themselves by being fabulously, unimaginably wrong in everything they say, yet they are given a national platform (well, Fox News) from which to spew their horrific wrongness over the whole country, over and over and over again!

How can any group so strongly oppose reason, logic, and public opinion on every issue? Why, you'd almost think they were doing it on purpose!

I'm sick of them.

it is naive to think that all the answers to our problems can be solved by the democrats and republicans in Washington, DC.

The Democrats set the agenda in the 1960s and 1970s but they let their lunatic fringe gain control. The public pulled them back. Now the nuts at the GOP fringe are learning the same thing. America has never been a nation of extremist.

that is the complaint, that they have been so utterly ineffective and unwilling to even bring to the floor the most important item on the nations to-do list. IMPEACHMENT!

and I'm always right when I say that the repukes are assholes. How's that?

Subject that idea to some criticism of your own, please. Do some thinking about it and see if it holds water.

Like someone pointed out earlier we learned our lesson letting the fringe speak for us in the 70's/80/s
The repukes are about to learn the same lesson

in 5...4...3...2...1

Crickets,,,,,, anyone else hear those crickets?

thats the big lie.
programs however well intended, seldom achieve that intent.

I think that if the public confidence that programs would be sensibly administered was higher
A lot of resistance would dissolve.

Health insurance can be seen as a program, but obviously health insurance does not mean that I will never be sick again. The problem it solves is, it allows me to get medical care when I get sick, without going broke in the process. In life, though, there are not 'final solutions'.

it is the problem".. That was a famous quote of Reagan and Republicans have tried to prove him right for decades. When they are the ones running the Programs they always seem to fail. When Democrats run them they flourish.

Can you give me an example of one? To bolster your argument?

"If we got our way about everything we'd go too far too.."

Tell me how you think that would play out.

less government regulation is good.


Both popular positions they have used quite effectively to hammer us.

I'd honestly like an answer

It can be minimized. The current administration uses it to get in the way of lawful programs it does not like. Right wingers love red tape - they love governmental control, they just want it in different and more dangerous areas. I'd rather have red tape over providing health care and basic necessities than have the government spying on people or imprisoning them without charge.

The right makes too much of it - as though red tape and even fraud are so much more important than the problem that the program is solving.

... is directly proportional to the amount of lying, cheating, stealing, etc that it is designed to counter.

The vast majority of "red tape" is the direct result of folks skirting the rules, gaming the system, etc.

If people acted honorably, we wouldn't need red tape, most people do but there are always enough to mess it up for everyone.

I prefer to live in a society where I can be ensured that my food, water, and products are safe to consume and use.

Less government regulation of whom?

Lower taxes on corporations than on individuals aren't necessarily good.

And do you genuinely think that the current GOP stands for "less government regulation"?! Have you not been paying attention? They stand for less regulation of corporations, and a HELL of a lot more of individuals.

You're either being naive or disingenuous.

to the basest instinct of the American public--greed. Your so-called "programs" cost people tax money, and the repubs have managed to convince a lot of people that they don't work and don't accomplish anything. Well I got news for you buddy, that's all a bug f*cking lie. Government "programs" and their "red tape" (god what a right wing buzz phrase that is) keep millions of people housed. They keep our environment as clean as it still is, all things considered. They provide food and health insurance for millions of people who would otherwise not have it. They keep the food and products in your home safe to eat and use, more or less. They keep your kids from working jobs at the age of 10 for wage-slave pay.

Think about it. Think about what America would be like if the government put no restraints whatsoever on market capitalism, and provided no services whatsoever to its population. I wouldn't want to live there. It's bad enough as it is here.

name one successful politician from any party who has succeeded by running on higher taxes and more governmental regulation?...ever?


Its not a lie most "programs' however well intended are poorly administered.

nm

and not yet out of the depression?

Thats getting to be a long time ago,Most americans were not yet born.

nm

nm

there is an exception to every rule.

its sort of a saying I guess
I'd assumed you'd understand

My point is, even when a program works well (as hundreds of them do), it wouldn't matter because the repubs have made people think (including you apparently) that NO government program works, that they are ALL a waste of time. So tell me, exactly how many government programs are you intimately familiar with? I work with and around a dozen or so, and I know for a fact that they work extremely well.

All you've been doing here is mouthing right wing talking points. Do you have a single fact at your disposal other than the stuff about candidates, which has nothing to with whether government programs work or not?

He or she is just parroting the usual Limbaugh boilerplate bullshit.

Are they as well administered as is possible?
are they helping as many people with the least amount of waste as is possible.

Of course not!


I'd say a democratic president would probably help.

Are you saying things are just swell now?


The only right wing talking points I've mentioned are the old chestnuts sure to be coming our way, I thought some discussion of them was in order.

Besides, just giving in is not the answer.

But they "won" to the extent they may have, on the social issues that they inflame people about - abortion, gay marriage, anything sexy. People do not care about their taxes - not ordinary people. They thing the feds are giving them a gift with that tax "refund" every year.

I live in the real world.People most definatly "care about their taxes".
If you took a poll and asked would you rather your taxes go up? or down?
I guess you'd get close to 100% picking "down".

how can you not know that the "tax and spend" mantra been used to hammer us quite effectively?

and asked would you like to have a police and fire department, paved streets, working sewers, good schools, safe food and water and air...

I guess you'd get close to 100% picking "yes".

Republicans claim we're "tax and spend" while they're "borrow and spend".

Don't buy into their bullshit.

. . . because sometimes spending yields a positive result. Their wastefulness has helped nobody except the extremely wealthy.

Yeah, I love how the Pukes turn it around on their ads, always saying (cue scary female voice) "Democrats will RAISE YOUR TAXES!" I got news for the Repubs - they're GOING to be raised. They HAVE to be raised. The debt is nearing 10 trillion dollars. Magical debt fairies aren't going to pay that down and neither are the business leaders you guys gave all the tax breaks to. This country is going in the crapper because of this useless and endless oil grab.

I know the mantra, I just don't think we are being "hammered" on that but on the wedge issues they use.

They lowered the taxes and that didn't do any good except for people who didn't need the money. Less regulation has led to bad drugs, bad food, bad toys, and monopolies of the "public" airwaves, to name a few instances.

Good government benefits the most people. Countries with higher taxes than us have a better standard of living, higher per capita income, better education, better health and services, and greater satisfaction with their government.

Your "popular positions" are actually lies. Are no taxes and no government positions you would support?

--IMM

Businesses should be allowed to poison the environment and their employees all they want.

Peak Oil is real
Climate change is real
We were lied to about Iraq, and we're still being lied to about Iraq
"Trickle down" economics doesn't work
Corporate greed and corruption is as much a problem inside our government as outside
Deregulation and Free Trade benefit no one except CEOs and money-changers
The sub-prime mortgage fiasco IS a big deal
BushCo are war criminals
America tortures people
Torture does not make America safer
We need National Healthcare for all
The neocons are a universal threat
America is a democratic republic, not a theocracy and not an empire
The Bush** administration is the most corrupt, lying, self-serving, murderous administration yet, and if they're allowed to walk we can all expect to suffer even worse in future

* not intended to be an exhaustive list

So far I haven't been proven wrong in 7 years. Okay I kid, we are wrong about somethings, but Repukes ARE wrong, for the country and for the world. They just are...

Sad.

Pathetic.

Wrong.

I think we'd swing government in the right direction. We'd also bring the GOP left.

So IOW no. We need to shift way to the left.

I actually think it's inevitable. Capitalism is headed for a major collapse and socialism will get things rolling again.

...under the present circumstances.

Firstly, obviously no one hear thinks "we" are always right about "everything" -- witness the constant arguing over this that or the other policy position here on DU.

Secondly, to say "either party will always go too far" ignores the recent history of the two parties. In fact, the Democratic party rarely gives more than a sop to its progressive wing, whereas the Republic party kowtows to its rabid right wing, case in point the number of extremist judges that have been appointed under Herr Bush.

Thirdly, given the present circumstances, I'd say it's about damned time to let the Democratic party pull this country HARD in a new direction, a more progressive direction, a direction that can only be described as extreme left, when compared to where we're at right now.

Do I think we're always right? In a way -- I think the Democratic party has swung WAY to the right, yes. I think it is because the party and its advisers took to heart exactly the kind of mind set you are promoting here, that of accommodation, while the other side just continued their lockstep march to the extreme right.

We need to get over the idea of the "middle" and get back to our roots which includes a populist appeal, and which we have turned away from for the last 30 years or so.

every two termer since 1952 has given up the white house to the other party.
(except for 1988)

The public get tired of WHOEVER in in the white house, and throws then out, EVERY TIME since 1952.

So the middle exhorts its influence over and over no matter which party you are talking about.

and we'll have a Dem president in '08.

Correct?

I wish there was a way for us not to fall into the same trap that the republicans find themselves in right now, but there just isn't.

It sure looks like we'll have a Dem in the white house next year.

I'm saying once in power lets try not to let it go to our heads.

between the parties.

Ralph? Is that you?

over and over

Kind of like your point-making technique: over and over.

Do you have a solution? Or are you only here to tell us how much we suck?

be humble
be grateful
be sensible
be genuine
be honest

be what you grandma taught you to be
be all the things that usually evaporate once you get in power.

Sounds like "Chicken Soup For The Political Soul".

Link arms and sing "Kum-Ba-Yah"?! That seems to be what the Dems are doing right now. Look where it's gotten us.

Got anything more specific?

but in truth its the hardest thing to actually do.

Thanks for playing our game. What do we have for the contestant, Johnny?

Which is precisely how the establishment wants it ... and it works; plenty of dems now view civil disobedience as unseemly. Establishment wins. Good luck with that "big change."

100% of the time.