In case nobody else posted about this: Chavez is now officially a complete asshole.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/28/venezuela.colombia/index.html

What the FUCK went wrong with him? He had the opportunity to accomplish many good things, but is turning out to be just another tinpot dictator with an overinflated ego.

...Hey, maybe he and bushyboy can be pals now, since they're both clearly insane.

Redstone

Chavez can do no wrong!!!!

:popcorn:

and the rebel groups are not Venezuelan.

I'll take my beatings like a man.

Redstone

This is: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3081348

still beat me up for my post.

Redstone

I hope you have a flame-proof underwear.

the last few days.

Redstone

I recon you just depend on people taking your word and not clicking on the link???

Get back to me when you can spell, OK?

Redstone

get over it...Chavez is a popular president...Uribe is a dictator!

For the same reason that the US refusing to have diplomatic ties with Iran is stupid and counterproductive. Diplomacy is a good thing.

in Venezuela with the Venezuelans who overwhelmingly support Chavez and then explain why you beleive the robber barrons?

in the past month, he has broken ties, or threatened to break ties, with two important foreign nations (important to Venezuela) over personal slights. or was this another 'bad translation'?

Maybe because he leads a sovereign country?

And, not to mention, maybe because both Spain and Colombia have tried to destabilize Venezuela?

Gee, if anyone tried to spring that on Junior, we'd be bombing them right now.

"Chavez insulted our leader, so we no longer deal with them in anyway. as of today, CITGO's assets are under review in the US, not sure we can have people who insult our leader doing business here" you'd be cool, right?

They were working together, Chavez talked to a general, Uribe told him to go away, Chavez said the same? What am I missing? Thanks.

be coming after him in the run up to the vote on 12/2. And, he knew the US would be using Colombia to do some of the dirty work.

He laid a trap for Uribe and Uribe stepped into it.

It went like this. Chavez set up the negotiations, he went outside the bounds of what Uribe could handle, Uribe fired him. Bingo, Chavez has the opportunity to remind Uribe that Venezuela has a long memory and if they collude with the US to destabilize Venezuela, there will be consequences. And this whole episode gave Chavez the opportunity to do that as publicly as possible.

It was never about the hostages -- although, had that gone well, that would have been a good thing.

That's what I can figure, any way.

corrupt. Anyone who wants to be head of a country is, by definition, an egomaniac, in my opinion that is.

lol

:)

At least there's something else to think about now instead of "Chavez is an asshole", for sure this time, dudes...:silly:

he's Mussolini eating pizza!

lol

Really, there's so much going on, it's really hard to keep up. I'm just glad I don't work for the guy because my hair would be falling out right now. :silly:

:9

without permission from the government of said country.

by the way, how would you expect Chavez to respond if one of his generals was having private meetings with George Bush? without notifying his civilian leadership (is Chavez technically a civilian these days?) as to the content of those discussions? I'm sure he'd be cool with it, right?

without going through channels, who knows what's being said, and what inducements or enticements are being dangled before that general?

It is a major breach of protocol at a minimum, and it could well be that Chavez was trying to persuade that general to overthrow Uribe. Hardly 'democratic' that sort of thing...

that MADem is talking out his ass, too.

was to show that Chavez is trying to conspire with Uribe's military. On the page it says something like "Chavez's contact with Uribe's top general was a breach of protocol" or something. I wouldn't be surprised. Chavez will create a giant country with socialist values, get killed, then the entire area will be a mess for years to come. Mark my words.

what is it with this absolute power? it seems really does.

at your office who thinks he's the shit...you know, thinks he's right about everything, thinks he knows everything, thinks all of the other employees are stupid and is a back-stabber.

Yea, he bugs the shit out of me.

errr, wait, is that the same employee that's switching the company to profit sharing and is fighting against disease, illiteracy, malnutrition, and poverty among the lower paid employees?

Well, never mind that. He has an ego! He's evil!

Lots of threads on this today and the hits just keep coming.

He is an asshole in the sense that he's not playing ball with BushCo. And that can get you dead.

Redstone

in respect to arms caches, uniforms and cell phones that were planted in four locations (so far) in Caracas this week? This isn't the first time Colombia has been used to destabilize Venezuela and it won't be the last time as Uribe is our whore.

Fine, let's disagree but, let's do it on the basis of fact, not just slurping up what the Noise Machine has been churning out for the last two weeks. Today they trotted out one of his ex wives, lol, to criticize him.

:eyes:

Thanks for trying, sfexpat... I doubt there's much reason though. Some people have their minds made up... and if the noise machine backs up what they want to see, it will be received enthusiastically and unquesioningly.

It's so weird to watch, though.

Or at least this action is not part of it. Uribe kicked Chavez out because he's afraid Chavez is trying to start a coop in Colombia (not an unlikely scenario.)

:silly:

paramilitaries in Venezuela. We've done it before and apparently, we're doing it again. This hostage issue just gave Chavez a venue to speak from.

The word is "coup", pronounced "coo", a shortening of the french "coup d'etat".

... to obfuscate the covert ops to overthrow Hugo Chavez. It's a rougher game than damned near any of us can imagine and Chavez can't play by the Marquis of Queensbury's rules. I'm actually pleased he's been as populist/democratic and restrained as he has ... far, far less draconian than a LOT of right-wingers who've been jack-booted and iron-fisted in Latin America (with the CIA's help).

Too many DUers seem to think he's gotta meet the political "standards" of the U.S. ... but I think Cheney/Bush have been far worse than Hugo.

not because of my loyalty to Chavez -- although, my wish is for him to succeed -- but because the smear is so overt, the dirty tricks involve the Right exposing college students to violence, and because for the first time, I know what I'm looking at. It's like watching a train wreck.

I understand why Chavez may seem so annoying to so many posters. But when you push on the allegations, it's the same thing they did to Gore and to Dean and to Kerry. :shrug:

If all they could get was 300 to violently protest, the Neocolonialists are running low on cannon fodder.

editorials today comparing him to every dictator in modern history.

"You're the tops! You're the Mona Lisa!"

lol

And that's just BS. It's simplistic, and it's what the CHAVEZUELISTAS want you to believe.

The students only got covered because they haven't come out in force until recently. Many of them are just regular kids, yet Chavez accuses them, because they disagree with him, of being rich brats.

Here, let's look at the right wing (cough, choke) Christian Science Monitor's take on the issue of the students, for a bit of context:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1128/p01s09-woam.htm

University student Elena Mela had never protested in her life.
But last week she joined thousands of students in the streets of Caracas to fight against Sunday's referendum on President Hugo Chávez's plan to scrap term limits on his rule. "This will change our entire country," says Ms. Mela. "I will keep fighting for my values."

Despite recent polls showing a decline in support for Mr. Chávez's proposed constitutional reforms, most analysts say he will prevail. But unlike other chapters in his eight-year reign, the growing opposition among students and even from members within his own party – including a longtime ally and former general – could signal that he is pushing changes too fast and too hard. ...says Edgardo Lander, a sociologist at the Central University of Venezuela. "I think this is a serious problem because the legitimacy of the Venezuelan government up to now has to a great extent come from the fact that they have never gone beyond the constitution. Now for the first time there is a break in constitutional norms. I think it will eventually weaken the government."

In addition to abolishing presidential term limits, Chávez's proposed reforms would lower the voting age to 16 from 18, reduce the workday from eight to six hours, and establish Venezuela as a socialist state....The referendum has provoked an enormous – and at times tense – display of people power. One man was shot dead on Monday ....Among a fractured opposition, students have emerged as the most cohesive antireferendum force.

"The students have woken up the Venezeulan population to show that discontent goes beyond the political parties," says Enrique Márquez, the vice president for organization within Un Nuevo Tiempo, an opposition party. ... students have been careful not to link themselves to the opposition, which has been defeated repeatedly at the ballot box since Chávez, was first elected in 1998. Students say they are focused solely on the referendum – not on the ouster of Chávez as the opposition often calls for.

"We all understand this is not about getting the president out; if he is there or not we'll still have the same problems," says Alejandro Narvaez, one of the student organizers...Students, as they have across Latin America, have played important roles in Venezuela, protesting its dictatorships, first in 1928 and then again 30 years later. But during the Chávez regime they had remained quiet – until the shutdown of an opposition television station in late May that was widely watched by Venezuelans of all economic backgrounds.

This is the first time they emerged in force during his rule, and analysts say it caught the country off-guard. "This went after something that really touched a nerve," says Michael Shifter, vice president for policy at the Inter-American Dialogue in Washington. "It was the first egregious example of overreaching ." .... students resent the fact that Chávez has linked them to the so-called oligarchy – at one point calling them "rich bourgeois brats."

"I'm not the daughter of rich parents, like the president says," says Mela, who voted for Chávez during his first election because the country needed a change, she says, and put herself through school with a scholarship and job.

as they did here:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1009/p09s02-coop.html

When you search this author's context, he works in a right wing think tank right here in the SF Bay Area.

What, they're only supposed to publish lefty op-eds?

Come on, that's a stretch.

And this guy is just a version of the Heritage Foundation shills only for Latin America.

Maybe this is a stretch. But it was surprising to find this ultra RW POS at the CSM and more surprising that no one had fact checked it. Someone agreed with me or at least considered what I was saying because they published my corrections in response to this nutcase.

obviate the usual "Ewwwwww, but that's a RIGHT WING RAG" argument that always comes up when there's no gas in the tank.

Because CSM is anything BUT a right wing rag, and anyone who reads newspapers regularly knows that.

You, then, shift those goalposts, and attempt to assert that because they dare to carry a whackjob rightwinger in their "commentary" section, that ... WHAT? A paper that carries all viewpoints on their op-ed pages is operating from strenght, as they clearly don't fear dissenting views.

Your desire, near as I could see, was to muddy the waters as to the bona fides of the CSM. The CSM's reporting is excellent, balanced and straightforward. It's why they win awards.

They are one of the few publications I have seen in covering this matter to point out the obvious, that the students are NOT "the opposition." That they don't desire government overthrow, they simply want this referendum to fail.

Silly kids, they just like a responsive Constitution.

lol

And, no, you don't understand what is going on with the students. You've simply consumed the kook aid. Fine. Your perogative.

The corporate media consistently conflates the pro and con student demonstrations and even, gasp!, misreports their numbers and their behavior.

You're an adult. You have access to a search engine. You could figure that out for yourself.

Oh, and by the way, that story that you were browbeating me about "Oh the poor censored students!" last week turns out to be bullshit. Reuters had the decency to issue a correction. But, you'd have to want to know what happened in order to get that information.

Again, your choice.

Sure. That sloppy CSM reporting at work, eh?

You'll have to point me to a link on the censored students story you're referring to. I am unclear on your context.

"But departing from its practice in last year’s presidential election, Venezuela did not invite electoral observers from the Organization of American States and the European Union, opening the government to claims of fraud if he wins."

It turns out the election will be monitored as I find in another source and posted to that thread:

"Chavez has also accused the opposition of planning to refuse to recognize the results if they lose and claim fraud. However, he says the Venezuelan electoral system is free and fair and the National Electoral Council has confirmed that 1,600 international observers will monitor the referendum."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3083560&mesg_id=3083645

It's not sloppiness when the reporting all goes in the direction of a smear. Is it a conspiracy? Probably not but, it sure looks like a consensus.

Did that kid lie? Maybe, maybe not. But in that same NYTs article this morning, you have yet another "I voted for Chavez but I won't vote for this" interviewee. So, now we have two outlets who have decided that this is the story. Maybe we should track how many more of these converts there are between now and Sunday and who prints their testimony.

I'm not so much defending Chavez here but indicting our crappy media. If they do this to this story, they can and probably will do it to our candidate. Dennis is flaky, Kerry is stiff, Dean is nutty, Hugo is an asshole.

despite the photos and the video and the news stories and all of that which tell you something different. Don't believe me? Just ask Sfexpat2000 about how great Chavez is and they'll be more than happy to tell you, in spite of any evidence to support their claims.

I'd love to see it. Thanks!

IF they even exist, 'international' is NOT a synonym for IMPARTIAL.

But don't let little issues like that bother you, or sway your ardent desire.

CNN is trying to MURDER Hugo too...Hugo said so--it MUST be true!!!!

there are photos and video of hundreds of thousands of people in the streets marching against your beloved Chavez and you're trying to claim it was just 800 people and most of them were Chavez supporters? Yeah, sure they were. Just keep telling yourself that.

It's remarkable how effective these disinformation campaigns are.

Uribe is alleged to have ties to death squads, drug cartels and wants an illegal third term, yet he's A-OK over at CNN.

to get him a chance for an unprecidented third term? Hey, there's never been a finer idea than that one! Way to go, Alvaro. Not one peep of alarm, no shrieks he taking over the world, no throwing their skirts over their heads and running around in circles, they rejoice in his far-sightedness!

On edit: and as far as death squads go, the right-wing couldn't be fonder of them! Mass graves of villagers accused of being supporters of the guerrillas? Wow! The more, the merrier. As Senator Jesse Helms said, long ago, "'Well, they're just Communists--they deserve to die.'"
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1995/05/bates.html

Right-wingers? Big on death squads. Massacres? Way to go! In Colombia, their right-wing death squads do it with chain saws.

I'm glad the people in Latin America have learned from their experiences with shock-doctrine.

Apparently most Americans have a LONG way to go.

If there are any assholes in that story, it is Uribe and the Chimpy Klan for sabotaging the negotiations to release the hostages. Check out that bucket of water you are carrying and see which team you are working for. There is a very active campaign against Chavez by Korporate Amerika, for obvious reasons, and you are being played.

Or is he afraid of opposing viewpoints? It appears that he is.

the Venezuelan press is largely independent and largely owned by the opposition.

And, this fact has been posted about a brazillion times to this board.

So what? Is it not healthy in a democracy to have an independent (as you characterized it) press hostile to the government power?

that Chavez faces you can guarantee that more than a few media barons would be sitting in Gitmo right now.

Fomenting and physically and monetarilly supporting a coup against a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADER is considered a crime in most countries.

Chavez simply ceased a few broadcast licenses. How long do you reckon NBC would stay on the air if they were ACTIVELY supporting a MILITARY coup against the US president?

Honestly it's scary the amount of (apparent) Dems and lefties are so willing to line up and swallow reactionary propaganda. Particularly dissapointing given the close proximity of Vz to the US - you guys can easilly go see for yourself but instead you swallow it all:(

As for that part of the propaganda campaign, which you have apparently swallowed and now regurgitate, just compare the amount of pro-Iraq-war advocacy in the US media (97% of guests) on the US Corporate media to the range of pro/anti Chavez media in Venezuela. Of course, you can't do that, given the blinders you have been taught to wear, but try.

Oh - it has nothing to do with it. You are vomiting up the old news about the TV station, the coup-backing TV station, that did not get its license renewed. Oh boo hoo. Meanwhile free speech and a free press are alive and well in Venezuela.

This whole post puzzles me. The story lacks an awful lot of detail, the only thing for certain is that Chavez cut off relations with Colombia while it is governed by Uribe.

That's a move he probably should have made years ago if he was going to do it at all. Uribe is as corrupt as they come. What's your beef here anyway?

:wtf:

This place... fucking UGH.

and this was a valid quote from Chavez, right? do you not believe Chavez' own words here? he has relations with the US, but not Colombia? how's that work?

he's acting like a petulant brat. but then, I am sure the grand plans for Caribia will work just fine and redeem him.

at what point do we think that maybe something that walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks an awful lot like a duck may not, in fact, be a chicken?

I won't say Dubya led the way on this one, but a lot of countries are going...well...dictatorship nowadays.

For how long, who can say?

Probably not too many people who can resist the lure of too much power.

fools, the poor with the least, to trade a shortened work week for all of their liberties and constitutional protections, and vest them in the hands of an obese madman in tight red shirts instead. That happens on 2 December...

He plainly broke protocol, as he always does, it seems. He's like a petulant, poorly raised five year old. He definitely has "Attention Deficit" disorder--when no one is paying attention to him, he gets disorderly.

and then, he gets smeared for the planted stories?

LOL!

on a continent known for coups.

Gimme a break. You're being absurd.

Oh, wait--EVERYONE lies and makes shit up....except HUGO!

cell phones and American made uniforms found stashed in Caracas and at least one Colombian national in custody and a fifth location under investigation but I'm being absurd. Colombian paramilitaries have been busted bigtime before for aiding US destabilization efforts in Venezuela but, I'm being absurd.

You stick with that.

It couldn't POSSIBLY be that Hugo shopped that story, in order to engender sympathy and outrage from his unquestioning acolytes, could it? And JUST in TIME to get them riled up and voting, too!!!

Only HUGO can keep us safe!! It's quite similar to the Bush and Rudy themes, really!

Of course...Saint Hugo would NEVER do any thing of that nature!!

You stick with THAT.

You seem to have this strange idea that Chavez is omnipotent. I don't.

lol

And Chavez WILL be omnipotent come 2 December, if he gets out the vote of the stupid, who will trade their rights for a few extra hours a week off.

Sorry, your scenario is a bit Que Viva Chavezuela-ish.

http://www.euronews.net/index.php?page=info&article=456491&lng=1

As ideological opposites, their partnership was never easy. Now relations between the leaders of Venezuela and Colombia have gone from bad to worse. Venezuela's Hugo Chavez has broken off diplomatic ties with Colombia, saying they won't be restored as long as President Alvaro Uribe remains in power. Chavez is furious over Uribe's decision to fire him as a mediator in talks to free hostages held by Marxist rebels in Colombia.

On Tuesday, Venezuela recalled its ambassador from Bogota. While Chavez prepares for a referendum on allowing him to run for re-election indefinitely, Uribe has denied rumours that he is seeking to stand for his country's presidency again.

"To me it seems that the attempt to perpetuate this is to remove democracy," he said.

His comments have been interpreted as veiled criticism of his Venezuelan counterpart. Uribe ended Chavez's role as a mediator with FARC rebels, saying Chavez had broken with protocol by speaking directly to the head of Colombia's army without Ulribe's permission.

You have a much lower estimation of the people of Venezuela than I do.

I don't think they are "the stupid".

And there is so much more at stake than a shorter working week. Like equal rights for gays and women and other minorities, for example. But, let that go. I fully expect "the stupid" to make their own good decision.

Just like only the STUPID voted for BushCo here.

The students, who do not oppose Chavez, just his crapping on the Constitution, aren't stupid. Nor are the opposition groups, many of whom USED to support Chavez, as well as the NiNis.

Let's look at what's in that lovely referendum, why don't we? Like we haven't before:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1128/p08s01-comv.html

A Dec. 2 referendum in Venezuela that would grant extreme powers to Hugo Chávez isn't going as the budding dictator planned. Youth are protesting and the poor have doubts. Just who is the "left" in Venezuela is now up for grabs.

By hook or crook, President Chávez may yet win this referendum, which proposes 69 amendments to the Constitution. The most worrisome one would remove limits on his reelection – for life. Others would allow him to take private property in an "emergency" and give him direct power over the nation's foreign currency reserves. Media and human rights groups could also be restrained. (See related story.)

All this is part of Chávez's "revolution" for "21st-century socialism," only the revolution is faltering as the poor face increasing food shortages...To win votes for his draconian steps, Chávez has included amendments that would, among other things, reduce the workday from eight to six hours and expand social benefits. These, of course, have immediate appeal to the majority of Venezuela's population who are poor. But guess who sees through this latest populist power play: Left-leaning students on university campuses.

They've been leading nonviolent marches by the tens of thousands since October, which may be one reason polls show the plebiscite vote could be close. Student leaders say this former military coup-plotter is merely using his current domination of Congress, the state oil company, media, courts, and election authority as a way to gain even more power. They fail to see the egalitarian nature of the revolution, especially when government price controls have reduced the supply of such staples as milk.

Student protests in Latin America are often a precursor to a leader's downfall. In the current protests for a "no" vote on the Venezuela referendum, students have found support from the Catholic Church, many political allies of Chávez, and his former mentor in the military, former Defense Minister Raúl Isaías Baduel.

Their voices keep alive the hope that the poor will see their future in democracy and not the paternalistic visions of a man who brooks little opposition....Like many other impatient revolutionaries such as Pol Pot in Cambodia, Chávez wants results in a hurry. He has given a new slogan to the military: "Fatherland, Socialism or Death." It is that reliance on the military and organized thugs to get his way that so upsets leftist students.

And others, who aren't BushCo whores, as you say, don't think the world of him either, and believe that all of this hollering and bullshit is an effort to pander to that STUPID base of his:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g2obF0N1m7a5dakA4U6gWWb7761wD8T67HPO0

Others think he's playing to the home crowd.

"Chavez isn't thinking about invading Colombia, or attacking Colombia or declaring war on Colombia," said Teodoro Petkoff, who edits the daily newspaper Tal Cual and is among Chavez's most outspoken critics. "You can bet that after the referendum is approved things will return to normal."

Opinion surveys show Chavez faces strong opposition in Sunday's vote, which will determine whether he can be re-elected indefinitely and have other new powers to reshape Venezuela in a socialist mold.

The larger question is whether Chavez's attack-dog temperament is damaging his efforts to supplant U.S. influence in Latin America. Though he has plenty of allies in the region, "there is almost no leader in Latin America with whom Chavez hasn't fought," Petkoff notes.

Chavez recently upset Chile's center-left president, Michelle Bachelet, by suggesting that her country restore Bolivia's access to the sea, territory Chile seized in an 1879 war.
"I asked him not to make any more such declarations," she said in a TV interview last week.

He's also alarmed some Latin American intellectuals, such as Mexican novelist Carlos Fuentes, who sees him as a dictator posing as a leftist crusader.

"This demigod called Hugo Chavez appears with his red beret, dressed like Mussolini on a balcony, and begins to seduce people with his siren's call," Fuentes said in an interview aired Tuesday on the Televisa network.

that don't suffer from the distortions of propaganda that these "sources" do. Look at the rhetoric, for pete's sake.

One article compares him to Pol Pot, lol, and the other calls him a demigod. Jeezus on a trailer hitch.

lol

/oops: misspelled dictator's name

You can't polish that turd.

The guy has asked the country to make him Dictator For Life, and call it a democratic measure.

With a wave of his hand, he controls the money, the military, the land, the people, the police, he appoints all the underlings, and all power is vested in him, without checks and balances. He can suspend due process, for as long as he wants, whenever he wants, simply by shouting that there's a vague "Emergency" that requires it.

And this is "OK" with you.

I find that amazing.

I've actually read the text of the reforms. You seem to have read something else.

And, btw, we have the National Emergencies Act (1976)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act

The National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1601-165is a United States federal law passed in 1976 to stop open-ended states of national emergency and formalize Congressional checks and balances on Presidential emergency powers. The act sets a limit of two years on states of national emergency. It also imposes certain "procedural formalities" on the President when invoking such powers, and provides a means for Congress to countermand a Presidential declaration of emergency and associated use of emergency powers.



In VZ, 'nobody puts Baby in the corner.' Baby Hugo is the only one calling the shots, with NO judicial or legislative oversight in the event of an emergency, which HE can declare, whenever he feels like it. And not only are there no checks and balances, there are NO LIMITS in VZ, either.

So, your waving of our law just demonstrates the difference between one that has some brakes on it, and Venezuela's, which is a runaway train.

I've read the "reforms" and they're bullshit. It's sanctioned dictatorship, with a few little sweetners sprinkled throughout. It makes it harder to get rid of the guy, harder to change the Constitution, and easier for Hugo to become the Ultimate Thug. Because, when he wants it, what he says, goes.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

And you, please stop using that moronic language and flaky "invective." What you are saying is abjectly and pathetically false, and represents nothing more than your narrow little erroneous view. Calling people "right wing shills" who don't agree with your rather immature and pathetically naive wordview doesn't make you look like anyone who can actually argue a case on its merits.

Why is it that you think first, that I support OVERTHROW?

Could it be because you don't know how to FUCKING READ?

Why is it that you suppose that I am a champion of "TYRANNY?" Is it because no one taught you how to actually comprehend the words that others put down, and you like to make halfassed leaps based on your own frankly stupid preconceived notions?

And why do you suppose that I have "nice little investments?" Or "DLC friends?" Is that the worst shit you can come up with?

It's terribly lame that you can't actually engage in a discussion without tossing those fetid, irrelevant little phrases--did you get them out of your "How To Be a Sad Parody of a Leftist" playbook? You just HAD to pull those idiotic and lame lines right out of your ass, didn't you!

What I oppose is this REFERENDUM. If the people of VZ want to keep their nitwit Presidente, that's up to them. I don't favor overthrow.

But hey, thanks for playing, you win the booby prize.

Try reading for ACTUAL content, and stop spouting the Cartoon Lefty Que Viva Chavezuela bullshit. You made a total ass of yourself with that post, and it was all because you ASS-umed something that wasn't even in a single one of my posts.

I'm supposed to stand by like a putz when a suspect potstirrer tosses a bomb like this into the mix?

rAVES (723 posts) Thu Nov-29-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #83
101. Please... stop it... you're just looking like a RW shill to everyone...
you might have enough DLC friends around here to prop your argument up and make you appear like you have merit, but you do not.
you support the overthrow of a left wing president in favour of a right wing Tyranny that will send you home some nice money on your little investments.

Right wing shill? DLC friends? Support the overthrow of a left wing president in favor of a right wing tyranny?

That's three fucking falsehoods in a row. But, what, I shouldn't be mean to the poor stupid ultra-lefty, WHY? Because he's stupid? Because he's a hyperlefty? Because he's an asshole, but since he's a CHAVEZISTA asshole, he's off limits?

BULLSHIT. Come at me with a knife like that, I respond with a gun.

This person has no desire to discuss the issues, simply to toss fetid turds in place of arguments. And you've got the stones to come after me for noting it? That's pretty fucking rich.

The New York Times lied to you this morning about this election and you ate it with a spoon.

You went on and on about how "the stupid" and "the stooges" will vote for the referendum and how the ballot boxes are already stuffed when the very report you were relying on is false. That vote is being monitored, of course.

I think in the future, I will do without your bigoted remarks about the people of Venezuela and without your injudicious media critique because so far, you are 0 for X.

well put your money where your mouth is. Push that IGNORE button now, and thanks for the memories.

Bigotry is in the eye of the beholder, and you take the cake, yourself.

reliable news sources, the one's who don't smear Chavez?

I would like to see some links to them.

Good job, MADem.

:-)

See, if Hugo says it, way too many people believe it. When CNN confused a picture of a fat guy in a red shirt with a big football player in a red shirt, why, Hugo thought the CIA was conspiring with the network to kill him...that's not real "sane" is it?

Yet, we who question anything are regarded as ignorant,
uninformed, or much worse.

Bigotry exists on both sides.

a public vote :eyes:

Personally I'm not big on all the reforms but ordinary people in VZ are VERY well informed (political debates there have the weird feature of informed discussion not MSN soundbites from morons) and it's none of my danm business what their views are because, like you, I'm not a Vz citizen.

Many nations find the US voting system an appaling corrupt nightmare but you don't see us trying to oust your "elected" govt because of it.

Look to the beam as they say

The exodus of the middle class has been nothing short of stunning. When pregnant women are running to fucking Panama to have their 'anchor baby' that's pretty pathetic.

I am not advocating the overthrow of Chavez, though. I think he's an asshole and a dangerous fool, but I do not support tossing him out.

I do object to his using the poor and bribing them with six hour workdays in exchange for their essential liberties. I find these articles in the referendum to be little sweets for the masses, concealing a brutal theft of their rights.

I don't like that. It is my opinion.

So, never mind "looking to the beam"==I have a right to this opinion and I don't advocate overthrow of the stupid asshole. I advocate defeat of this referendum question.

If you knew anything about the political/ethnic divide in latin american politics, you would be ashamed at that overtly racist remark. But you don't. So your hatred is just that of the confused middle class north american worker, indoctrinated in anti-socialist propaganda since birth, terrified by the glimmerings of a democratic and socialist transformation so close by in the southern continent that, by shaking the foundations of your world view, causes you to lash out at those who support this popular movement as 'stupid'.

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"Uribe, an important U.S. ally in the left-tilting Andean region, won a second four-year term last year after the constitution was changed to allow one re-election.

Many want him to run again in 2010 while others fear such a move would put Colombia on an authoritarian path.

The bespectacled Wall Street favorite shocked supporters and opponents alike by telling members of Congress in a private meeting late on Wednesday that he would be open to a third campaign if there was a "catastrophe."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01280394.htm

So Uribe wants an illegal thrid term in case of "catastrophe". Will he, like Chavez, put the change in term limits up for a vote?

01 Nov 2007 18:11:36 GMT
Source: Reuters
-----------------------------------------------
His more recent remarks suggest that he's cooled to that idea.

Look, I'm not a Uribe champion. He shouldn't have fiddled with the Constitution in the first place, either--I think the stunt he pulled to get a SECOND term was certainly "iffy" though not quite as bad as what Chavez is doing, trying to become President For Life, and if Uribe fiddles with the document AGAIN, for his own benefit, and even if his supporters encourage it, he'll really be an asshole.

mmm middle class person in western nation condemns all the "stupid" workers in the third world for being so thick as to think economic justice was important.

Sounds so familiar but I just can't put my finger on it

The stupid people supporting Hugo are no different from the stupid people supporting Bush.

Stupid people exist all over the world. They idealize a politician because they think they're gonna BENEFIT from the association. They usually don't see a power grab, because they're too busy watching their wallets.

You know nothing about me; don't make assumptions about my background or circumstances, because you'd be wrong, and I don't intend to share anything of that nature with someone as antagonistic as you seem to be.

Exempting people from certain moral examinations due to Idealism. The "except Hugo" crowd follows a long line of similar groups that claimed their personality could do "no wrong."

Holy cow. There's a really important event going on and all you guys can do is tilt at positions no one has taken.

Maybe you have to actually be kin to or know people who have survived the proxy wars in Latin America to understand what is happening right now. People's lives are at risk because our owners don't want Venezuela to move to the left or to further democratize.

This isn't about exempting Chavez from shit. This is about recognizing the quashing of democracy with the same old tricks they've used for the last hundred years.

I mean, I don't want it to become a leftist dictatorship (all dictatorships are bad, right and left). Further democratization is good though, I'm all for that. It's just that Chavez suspending term limits and giving himself the power to rule by degree don't portray any style of Democracy that I have ever seen (outside the US of course.)

is limited and specific and has been used before in Venezuela. The history of his government is to go by the book. For example, instead of shooting the guys that tried to overthrow him, the government went through the courts. Surely that's a good sign.

As for the term limits, England, Japan, Australia and Canada have the same arrangement.

He could still go wrong, he's a politician. But what we're witnessing right now is swiftboating on skates.

if the 69 articles in that referendum measure pass.

It's NOT the same. There are absolutely NO checks or balances. He becomes dictator with a snap of his fingers. IF the referendum passes, and there seems to be a FAINT glimmer of hope that it just might not.

Here, let's see what that rabidly right wing (cough) GUARDIAN UK has to say--surely, they're in the hands of BushCo (choke) too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2218550,00.html

Defeat would stymie Chávez's effort to abolish term limits and oblige him to step down in five years. He has expressed a desire to keep running for president until 2030.....There are unconfirmed rumours the supreme court may accept a petition to postpone the vote. Ironically the petition was lodged by the opposition when it assumed it would lose, but such a ruling would now be seen as a gift to the government.

The proposed 69 constitutional amendments would declare South America's oil giant a socialist state, extend presidential terms from six to seven years and allow continuous election.

Chávez would also gain direct control over foreign currency reserves and have greater power to appoint regional leaders, expropriate private property and censor the media during emergencies....other Venezuelans foresee ruin and say the constitution would give too much power to a man who already controls the national assembly, the supreme court, the oil industry and most levels of government.

The middle class are emigrating in droves to the US, Europe and central America. Pregnant women are giving birth in Panama City so their babies can obtain Panamanian citizenship.

Once loyal chávistas such as Raul Baduel, a former defence minister, and Podemos, a party within the ruling coalition, have broken with the president and warned of a lurch towards authoritarianism. The president's ex-wife, María Isabel Rodríguez, a journalist, echoed the call for a no vote.

Shortages of milk, eggs, sugar and other staples combined with high inflation have also eroded the president's support. Crowds queuing at some supermarkets have scuffled during deliveries, prompting the national guard to intervene....

It's perfect.

lolol

To see leftists seemingly unaware of the realities of revolution and counter-revolution. Col. Chavez is engaged in revolution, and makes no bones about it. He is opposed by the counter-revolution of a hereditary elite whose privilege and power he is in dead earnest about destroying. Most of the things raised here in criticism of his actions have little basis in the social reality of Venezuela prior to Col. Chavez's election. Venezuelans working hand to mouth in the cities and countryside had no signifigant liberty, for liberty as a practical fact requires a degree personal economic stability and means, or it is a mere sound on the wind. He may well emerge from this as a genuine dictator, but if he does, he will do so with the backing of the great majority of the country's populace, who feel that dictatorship benefits them, and desire done the things the dictator proposes doing with the nation's wealth and social order.

In fact, he had an unfortunate run in with the gentleman Farabundo Marti in the year 1932 and they now share the same graveyard. Ironies of history.

Latin America, because of its cultural structures, is very different than European society. It was the first place that modern socialism took hold on this continent. If you think through the custom of the extended family and a different experience of community, it makes a little sense.

I don't know how this will turn out. There is an opposition emerging from Chavez's own party and that seems to me to be a good thing. But, Latin America has always been preyed upon by other interests so it's not clear that that opposition will be allowed to unfold on its own and not be co-opted prematurely. This may have already happened.

It is certainly possible that Chavez will assume dictatorial power and with the agreement of his constituency. But, I tend to think not. Because the efforts made to foster political literacy among his supporters in the political class will eventually thwart that. If his aim has been to become a dictator, he should never have taught all those people to read their Constitution.

In the travels of my adventurous youth, it was the only country where I saw the distended bellies of serious malnourishment disfiguring children.

It seems to me that in many ways, South and Central America still resembles most closely a feudal order, and has not even undergone the 'social revolution' leading to predominance of a bourgeoisie rather than a landed aristocracy. Its political struggles have accordingly a nineteenth century flavor about them. Col. Chavez is reminiscent of such radical movements in that century in Europe as the Decembrists, and the wave of '48.

my grandparents and Trotsky political asylum in the same year. He managed to die a natural death but it's not clear how he did that. :)

"A Spanish General, asked on his death-bed if he would forgive his enemies for his soul's sake, replied, 'I have no enemies. I had them all shot.'"

The NiNis are opposed to it, per the polls. And they're the great mushy independent middle.

And the students, by and large, are not opposed to Chavez, just his efforts to use the Constitution as buttwipe.

See here for details on the students who are NOT Chavez opponents: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1128/p01s09-woam.htm

and here for detail on the polling: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2218550,00.html

The opposition has also rallied its base with university students taking the lead in a loose coalition of political parties, the Catholic church, business leaders and disaffected chávistas.

A survey for Datanalisis, a polling company, said 49% of likely voters would vote no and 39% would vote yes. A tracking poll by the opposition-linked Hinterlaces pollster predicted a technical tie.

Since his election in 1998, however, Chávez has never lost a vote and polls have a record of underestimating his support.

The outcome hinges on turnout of the estimated 40% of Venezuelans known as "NiNis" who are not aligned to either side. A majority of them oppose the referendum.

It didn't try to conceal the fact. However, other reports have pointed to an increasingly close contest.

I think he'll pull it out, and VZ will become a shitty dictatorship, like Cuba, with neighbors.

If Bush tried to pull even one-TENTH of this bullshit here, there'd be blood in the streets. But hey, Que Viva Chavezuela, I guess...I'm just astounded at the mindless cheerleading 'down there' for that which no one would put up with for a minute here.

http://www.pr-inside.com/a-glance-at-some-of-chavez-s-r322975.htm

...
The president may declare a state of emergency for an unlimited period, as long as «the causes that motivated it remain.» During this period various constitutional rights «may be restricted or suspended temporarily,» a change that critics warn would let the government detain citizens without charges and censor the news media. Certain rights are maintained at all times, including the right to legal defense.
_ Raises the percentage of the electorate needed to petition for referendums. For a recall referendum on the president or another elected official, signatures are needed from 30 percent of voters instead of the current 20 percent. For a referendum on the constitution, 25 percent is needed, also up from 20 percent.
_ Popular participation in government «for the construction of a Socialist Democracy.» Chavez calls it a new «geometry of power» aimed at greater self-government through neighborhood-based communal and worker councils.
_ A socio-economic system based on «socialist, anti-imperialist principles» and promoting «humanistic values of cooperation and the preponderance of common interests above the individual.
_ Large land estates, or latifundia, are prohibited. A government agrarian reform has already turned over more than 2.5 million acres of arable land to poor farmers on the grounds it was underused or that owners lacked adequate titles.

_ The state may provisionally occupy property slated for expropriation before a court has ruled.
_ Creates three new classes of property in addition to private and state property. Social property belongs to the people as a whole and may either be held on their behalf by the state, or assigned to people of a determined area by the state. Collective property is common and assigned to a particular group, such as a communal council. Mixed property would exist as combinations of social, collective, state and private property.
_ A territorial reorganization of the country. The president, with approval by a majority of the National Assembly, may establish federal territories, municipalities, provinces, cities and other jurisdictions. The president appoints and can remove leaders of these new jurisdictions. Opponents say Chavez could use these powers to change voting districts and eliminate elected offices held by opponents. Chavez denies it, saying the changes would improve government efficiency. Chavez says he would appoint regional vice presidents, which would apparently have more power than state governors, to decentralize and focus on local needs.
_ Financing of «associations with political aims» is to be regulated by law. Foreign funding is prohibited for such groups. Critics warn this could be used to strangle human rights groups and other non-governmental organizations.
_ University students, faculty and workers are granted equal power to choose administrators at public universities by direct vote. Currently faculty votes are weighted and non-teaching employees do not have a vote. Chavez's supporters say the change will bring more democracy to campuses that have been bastions of anti-Chavez sentiment.

Large land estates, or latifundia, are prohibited. A government agrarian reform has already turned over more than 2.5 million acres of arable land to poor farmers on the grounds it was underused or that owners lacked adequate titles.

_ The state may provisionally occupy property slated for expropriation before a court has ruled.

_ Creates three new classes of property in addition to private and state property. Social property belongs to the people as a whole and may either be held on their behalf by the state, or assigned to people of a determined area by the state. Collective property is common and assigned to a particular group, such as a communal council. Mixed property would exist as combinations of social, collective, state and private property.

You want to get rid of latifundia, tax the Christ out of them, don't appropriate them. Eventually, they'll be broken up and sold off in smaller chunks. Alternatively, give the land owners tax breaks for providing long term low-cost leases to farmers.

And I'm sorry, I just don't think making Chavez "Presidente for Life" with absolute power is a sharp idea--there are sixty nine proposals in this referendum, and a LOT of them, well, SUCK.

f Bush tried to pull even one-TENTH of this bullshit here, there'd be blood in the streets.

:wow: WTF

You really believe that? Where was the blood on the streets when Bush took the Presidency on the say of the COURTS and not the voters?

Chavez was elected, Bush wasn't. Again - where were the riots?

I'll agree to that. The coup would occur that day.

and on that score Vz is just like the US, can always trust the rich to look out for their own interests above and beyond anyone elses. Odd that it's a 'tude with so much support at an ostensibly (coz serious what's considered hard left in the US is centre at most elsewhere) left leaning/progressive site.

And the bottom line is, he DID WIN in 2000.

He won, Five to Four. Because only nine people voted in that election--remember???

If you think having, inscribed in your CONSTITUTION, the absolute power of the President in case of emergency,

--Which only HE can declare;
--Which only HE can revoke;
--Which is INDEFINITE;
--Which doesn't require approval of any assembly or judiciary;

For as LONG as he fucking wants is 'cool' well, whoop-dee-do.

If you think Chavez's ability to hold you without charges for as long as he wants, to restrict your right to legal counsel, to not let anyone know you're being held, is a good thing, well, whooop-de-doo.

And one more important thing--the "compare and contrast" argment is lame as fucking hell.

It doesn't matter if we live under a dictator who makes the Ayatullah Khomeini look like Santy Claus.

You say "Well, WE'RE just as bad" like that makes it OK.

If we are just as bad, we shouldn't want ANYONE else to suffer like that, now should we?

But we aren't == we at least have checks and balances. There are NONE in those referendum articles.

Pardon me--'An error occurred during processing...'

An opposition comprising the Catholic church, business leaders, and university students is a veritable roll call of reaction in the present situation of Venezuela, and something it would never occur to me, as a leftist, to range myself alongside of in a revolutionary situation.

"When I see a working man in combat with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on."

a "walk."

Most of those students are NOT opposed to Chavez, they're opposed to his abrogation of Constitutional basics. They don't want to get rid of him, they just want him to quit with this half-baked idea of becoming a petit dictator.

Talking about freedom in the abstract from the comfort of the richest western nation is an odd thing.

There is NO freedom for the working poor in the kind of robber baron free for all that was Vz's economic situation prior to Chavez.

a favored tactic of the right, do you have any substantive reason to ally yourself with Uribe/Chimpy in this dispute?

Your obvious "cult of personality" characterization is a transparent reference to Stalinists and Maoists, since that was the corporate meme of those eras. You obviously know that. Repeating it now in this context says a lot more about you than you are likely to admit.

Your words:

Please stop speaking on this subject.. its embarrassing.

If you have nothing to contribute, move along, little boy.

Here, take this with you--do a little reading (don't forget to click on the links) and educate yourself: http://www.caracasnine.com/cgi-local/content.cgi?l=eng&p=4

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absolutely. It would seem that no one is immune.....................which is why we need limits on terms.

I understand that you and a few other denizens of this board have an irrational fear/hatred of Hugo Chavez, but the whole story is readily available with just the tiniest bit of effort. Instead, you chose to post an abbreviated hit-piece from the corporate overlords and declare your opinion as "official" fact.

C'mon, you can do better than this.

to steal the worlds fifth largest oil reserves and eliminate left wing Chavez. Chavez may be doing some weird shit right now (as the corporate media is gleefully making sure everyone hears their right-wing side of everything).....However, Chavez has done a lot of great things for the poor of Venezuela, as well much of the South American region....Your friend "bushboy" has never done a single thing ever to help the poor nor the workers in our country or anywhere else! http://counterpunch.com

Yep, your really going to get the truth and both sides of the story from Wolfie & republicans!!

CNN has been de-programmed off my teevee and I certainly wouldn't ever click on a link to their site.

If anything, it simply demonstrates poor diplomatic skills.

Further, your opinion assumes that Chavez is in the wrong, here, and that Uribe's motives were pure. Isn't it possible that Uribe nixed Chavez's participation for some *other* reason, either thinking Chavez's efforts would be seen as negotiating with terrorists or because Uribe would prefer that the terrorists kill the hostages, in order to shift public opinion against them? (just positing other, very reasonable, possibilities)

so it's unclear now exactly how many of the original 45 hostages are still being held. I'm sure it is gut-wrenching for a bastard like Uribe to even have to consider releasing any of the 500-plus rebels being held in his prisons and these "negotiations" were iffy from the start, with Chavez suggesting that such radical factions could be normalized as legitimate political groups and that recognizing their voice might solve some problems in Colombia. Not something either Uribe or the USA would ever give a serious thought to, really.

The murder of Gustavo Rueda and the release of Colombian Foreign Minister Fernando Araujo probably had more to do with Uribe dumping Chavez's efforts than anything we'll ever hear about in our own twisted media.

you know he's Hitler in disguise.

When he calls people who vote "no" traitors, you know he's Castro in disguise.

and smiles like Pol Pot. I heard he's trying to buy some of Imelda Marcos's shoes on eBay.

this is an outrage, or something. :boring:

That's not the point. Cutting off relations with Colombia doesn't make Uribe any less of an asshole. It doesn't make Venezuela any safer. All it does is increase tensions between the two countries. If the last seven years of our own history have taught us anything, it's that abandoning diplomatic engagement with your enemies is totally counterproductive.

Let me know when he tortures, renders, bombs, steals, destroys, .........

He wants power for the heretofore powerless. Call it "Omelet Diplomacy."

And I'm not sure what his "Omelet Diplomacy" has to do with his actions vis a vis Colombia. Why do giving "power to the powerless" and maintaining diplomatic relations with your neighbors have to be mutually exclusive?

found living in quarters on a ranch near Caracas, 130 of them, who confessed they had been brought in by Cuban Venezuelan opposition militant, Roberto Alonso to break into the National Guard Armory, and arm 1,500 men, to go after government officials, and kill Chavez.

Uribe spent six hours discussing a Colombia=based assassination plot against Hugo Chavez, apologized to him, gave some details, then his head of the D.A.S., the secret police force, Jorge Noguera was discovered to have been involved in another assassination plot, along with some Venezuelans against Chavez, and just last week they found some Colombian people in Venezuela who had bunches of weapons, ammunition, cars, cell phones, and laptops, and they started in investigating the texting, and thelaptops just last weekend.

Just take the time to start keeping track of these things. People can't spend their own time trying to run things down to find out for themselves, then spend forever trying to tell people who won't get off their butts and do their own research, what they have learned. At some point people need to realize they are not getting the story through the corporate media, and take responsibility for going after the information themselves.

DU'ers who do research, who do want more information have been discussing it here with likeminded people for a very long time. What really slows things down is the people who keep reiterating their old, timeworn insults and claims when other people are trying to get something done.

It's called obstruction, and people know it when they see it. It's totally unproductive, and childish.

for loyalists of Chavez. For his own sake, hope Chavez gave them to the right people!

we'll see!





random tip o' the day: post pics of suspects, not their lawyers. ;)

Do you have a random thought generator there? Make up your mind.

are always a hoot. Funny, but in a sad way. Being a dupe is often hard work, and rarely respected for the amount of effort required.

You're quoting something I never said in this thread. And never would say. You did it again in your post downthread.

Redstone has declared him an Asshole.

Case closed!

You might want to check out http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=colomb to see what one of your (the collective your, as in the bunch of you here who can't wait for the end of democratic socialism in Venezuela) favorite sources against Chavez has to say about Saint Uribe.

For example:
Colombia: US Congress Should Maintain Hold on Military Aid
Visiting Colombian Defense Secretary Must Explain Rise in Reports of Extrajudicial Executions, Say Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch

...
Rather than take the issue of extrajudicial executions seriously, Colombian President Alvaro Uribe in a July speech claimed that “the guerrillas have another strategy: every time there is a casualty in the guerrillas, they immediately mobilize their chorus leaders in the country and abroad to say that it was an extrajudicial execution.”

Uribe has repeatedly made statements attempting to link human rights groups to Colombia’s guerrilla groups, which for decades have been responsible for serious and repeated violations of international humanitarian law.

AIUSA and HRW also noted that there has been no significant progress in a number of high-profile cases of human rights violations implicating the military. One example is the case of General Rito Alejo del Río, whose US visa was revoked several years ago due to evidence that he had collaborated with paramilitaries in human rights violations when he commanded the 17th Brigade of the Colombian Army. Early in the Uribe administration, the investigation was summarily closed. Paramilitary commander Salvatore Mancuso has recently stated in hearings before prosecutors that Del Río had, in fact, collaborated with his group. Prosecutors have yet to reopen any investigation into the allegations against Del Río.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/18/colomb17131.htm

or

Colombia: Uribe Must Respect Judicial Independence
President’s Interference with Ongoing Investigations Threatens the Rule of Law
(New York, October 9, 2007) – Colombian President Alvaro Uribe’s interference with investigations conducted by the Colombian Supreme Court and his repeated attacks on the court itself are a threat to judicial independence, Human Rights Watch said today.

Yesterday, Uribe issued a public statement calling for an investigation into allegations that a Supreme Court justice, Iván Velásquez, had sought to persuade an imprisoned individual to provide testimony implicating the president in an assassination. Uribe stated that he had received a letter from this individual denouncing the justice’s actions.

Uribe also stated that he directly called Justice Velásquez, to ask him about the allegation. Velásquez is the head of the Supreme Court team charged with investigating links between politicians and abusive paramilitary groups.

“Against all odds, Colombia’s Supreme Court has been making unprecedented progress in investigating links between paramilitaries and politicians close to the president,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “President Uribe’s phone call to the judge charged with these highly sensitive investigations amounts to political pressure that could intimidate the court and affect the outcome of the cases.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/09/colomb17057.htm

or

Letter to President Álvaro Uribe
Washington, D.C., June 6, 2007

President Álvaro Uribe Vélez
Presidency of the Republic of Colombia
Palacio de Nariño
Bogota, Colombia

Dear Mr. President:


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Colombia: US Congress Should Oppose Prisoner Release Plan
Press Release, June 6, 2007

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I am writing to express Human Rights Watch's grave concern over your proposal to set free or reduce the prison terms of politicians currently under investigation for various crimes in collaboration with paramilitaries, as well as the measures you are taking to set free members of the FARC guerrillas who are currently serving prison terms for their crimes.

You have offered broad justifications for these measures. However, as we explain below, these measures are in fact inconsistent with the goals you purport to be seeking. Instead, these measures are likely to promote a culture of impunity and cover-up, leaving the power of paramilitary and guerrilla groups intact.

I. The release of paramilitary collaborators

The Colombian Supreme Court has made great strides in recent months in investigating politicians for engaging in criminal activity in collusion with paramilitary groups. For the first time, we are starting to see some of the truth come to light about paramilitaries' mafia–like networks, including their infiltration of the political system. After years of impunity, the institutions of justice are finally sending the message that those who engage in fraud, illegally manipulate the electoral process, and put Colombia’s democracy at the service of criminal interests, will be sanctioned.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/06/colomb16092.htm

And that is just HRW, one organization.

Your qualifications for sainthood are massively suspect.

You'll certainly never hear me defending Uribe. He's a fucking monster.

And your continued insistence on putting words in my mouth is tiring. I'm certainly not someone who "can't wait for the end of democratic socialism in Venezuela." My point is, and has always been, that "democratic socialism in Venezuela," and Hugo Chavez ought to be viewed as two distinctly separate entities. Or they ought to be.

carrying water for this group and see where it gets you. Hope you are ready for more of the same.

They are warmongers just like the Rethugs.

Each criticism becomes hate in their eyes. Each person who criticizes is said to be "anti-Chavez".

Rather like saying that those who critize Bush hate America.

Even when I stand up for Kerry, I can admit the dude ain't perfect. I don't excuse or justify every one of his actions.

My favorite is when some people say "Bush would do the same thing." Great. Nice standard to live up to.

I don't think left wing leaders should be given more slack than right wing ones, is all. Chavez is being given the benefit of the doubt by some, when we'd rail against the same actions if it were Bush instead.

And no, I'm not DLC.

is not like saying Bush critics are anti-America.

It's like saying that Chavez critics are Chavez critics. And those are more extreme in their language, more devoid of fact and more energetic than any of us who are trying to actually keep track of what is going on in Venezuela.

Lock out the Right wing Bush conspirers... I'd have an Iron gate on the border if I was him.

No its fine.. let the coke and the right wing terrorists/CIA just waltz in...

And since Chavez isn't proposing to build one I really see no point in continuing this line of discussion.

because its the Most Trusted Name in News.

Populist leaders do make corporatists VERY uncomfortable.

:rofl:
omg, those corporate trigger points still work on even the supposedly learned.

Who cut off an environmental meeting with Uribe after recently revelations of him being involved with paramilitary groups, and murder.

What the fuck went wrong with Al Gore?

accused Uribe and the US of not genuinely wanting peace with the rebels. IMO, this is well within the realm of possibility.

As far as I'm concerned, the "jury" is still out on Chavez, but has already delivered guilty verdicts on Uribe and Bu*h.

At this point, I'll believe Chavez before I'll believe Bu*h or Uribe.

Perhaps with encouragement from Uncle Sugar.

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has at least a seven-point lead for a referendum on Sunday on reforms that would allow him to run for re-election indefinitely, according to a poll distributed on Wednesday.

The poll by Consultores 30.11, which has worked for the government and accurately predicted a vote result last year, showed Chavez moving ahead compared to most surveys in recent days that put him at best in a statistical tie.

The survey of 1,600 voters taken November 21-27 said 56 percent of likely voters appeared set to vote for Chavez's constitutional overhaul and 40 percent set to vote against.

But when the survey measured how undecided voters would cast their ballots and also took into account that others, who do not yet plan to vote, could decide to participate, the difference narrowed to as little as seven points.

You got that? 56% to 40% with 4% undecided, but by deciding how undecided voters were going to vote, and deciding that some unlikely voters would a.) vote and b.) how they would vote, they cut the lead from 16% to 7%. So roughly, they gave him all the undecideds and another 5% worth of people not likely to vote, so as to get it up to 46.5%/53.5% or the like.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKN2862974520071129

Chavez could debone and eat the living flesh of all his citizens and his worshippers will keep on coming.

from heaven that he's the second coming and virulently right wing shits who want to horde the cash to themselves will continue convincing the credulous that he's the devil incarnate.

I'm an anarcho-syndicalist with a Makhnovshchina bent (if I have to pick a label) as such I am a VERY long way from on board with Chavez's politics. However I do know a little about Sth & Central America, US interventionist history there, actually speak to people in Vz and spent some time in media/PR. This means I can spot a stinky steaming pile of beaten up shit in the guise on a "news story"

Perhaps you'd like to consider the possibility that others have come to an INFORMED position that just happens to disgaree with yours.

that corporate america relies on.
CONgratulations.

Do you even have one clue what this disagreement is about?

They all seem to have great state jobs and are not poor any more..

Morning Edition.

because he wont work with someone who like Uribe? WOW that's some HUGE leap you've managed there

so all nations that claimed they would not work with Bush on Iraq are all assholes too?

This has nothing to do with a Chavez defence, instead it is an attempt to inject a little context and lessen the sensationalism you seem intent on flaming.

Have you been to Vz lately, or ever? if not I seriously suggest you get your arse down there. Seems to be a bit of an obsession you have here (based on the ridiculously stretched hyperbole) so why not go and see if what you're saying is utter bollocks or not.

(Hint if you go try talking to regular working folk, not those who own the media who are about as fucking progressive as the love children of Murdoch and Goebbels)

:)

That guy could outlaw gays and eat babies and I swear some here would praise him for it.

Go figure.

over who talks to whom while negotiating for the release of hostages and a bunch of rightwing DU posters here could equate that with 'outlawing gays and eating babies'. I swear that could happen.

And bad.

Agreed?

The OP has yet to explain exactly why the dispute between Uribe and Chavez, one a real authoritarian anti-democratic ruler with a truly horrible human rights record, the other a democratically elected president of a nation with a rather good human rights record, a dispute over a hostage negotiation that appeared to have some promise of ending a years long stalemate that Uribe aborted over some alleged protocol violation by Chavez, makes Chavez an asshole, or equivalent to a baby eater.

than that of those of us who point out he hasn't eaten any babies yet.

lol

:)

I think.

lol

but to her credit, they were BBQ'd first via an environmentally friendly grill which produced no smoke and used solar panels to fry the baby up.

:rofl:

there's a drought on in Australia - babies are easier to come by than fresh food

The president of Colombia is tied in with rightwing death squads. Why shouldn't ties with him be cut?

You don't have to like Chavez, but that doesn't make him a dictator. I'll start worrying that he's a dictator when presidential elections in Venezuela stop being overseen and determined to be fair by international watch groups.

And the new constitution says that the people can hold a referrendum to recall the president and elect a new one at any time. :shrug:

There's so many of these unanswered questions...

:shrug:

(For the humor impaired, that's kidding.)

but a smart asshole who managed to fool fellow Venezuelans and, sadly DUers who will automatically adore anyone who hates Bush and who detest anyone who would say something positive about Bush.

Stealing all that oil back from those poor global corporations. What an asshole.

Using Venezuela's resources to build schools and increase literacy. What an asshole.

Not getting himself killed in our aborted 2002 coup. What an asshole - probably his worst infraction!

Improving healthcare for all Venezuelans. What an asshole.

Empowering local communities and local democratic institutions. What an asshole.

Establishing regional alternatives to WB/IMF neoliberal mandates. What an asshole.

Establishing a new constitution for Venezueala that increased the democratic power of the Venezeulan people and reduced the ability of the traditional oligarchy to control the nation. TOTAL ASSHOLE.

only the smart people like yourself (who unlike others here have produced no evidence for your tawdry tabloid assertions) can see the truth.

The vast majority of Venezuelans are fools. Perhaps you could go down there and give them the benefit of your experience living in a nation with an ENORMOUS wealth gap, a HUGE population of working poor, and explain how you'd go about reforming the nation in order to bring a little equality.

You could also school Chavez on how one should deal with attempted coups and counterrevolutionaries?

You could explain what the fabulously democratic and non authoritarian laws that YOUR nation has for dealing with people who would armed and instigate a coup?

I'm sure the stupid Venezuelan people would love to hear your wisdom :puke:

"Clean up your own house, before you go pointing your long, bony fingers at our leaders, amigo."

At least Chavez didn't completely pull the llama over our eyes and invade another country like your shallow dictator did!!

and Al Qaeda = the CIA.

It's like they both read the same book on how to govern by fear.

and used the proceeds to help the poor?

Carbon fucking copy, dude. Totally.

I must agree that he appears to be a tin pot. If his ideas are that good then there
is no reason to be set up to be elected for life. Someone else can carry on his ideas
and the people will vote for the ideas and not his hugo ego.

He has lost all credibility.

If their ideas are that good then there is no reason for them to be set up to be elected for life. Someone else can carry on their ideas
and the people will vote for the ideas and not their huge egos.

If it's bad democracy for him, it's bad democracy for us.

through the constitutional amendment that limited presidential terms, which had been in place since our country's inception

the reason that they did that was ONLY because they feared that they were SO lame that they'd never have a chance to win the office again

I realize that they didn't change the constitution, merely enabled the vote go to the states, whose legislatures were equally afraid that dems would maintain presidential power forever, which is what I'm afraid is going to happen now, with the current state of media and voting machines

And our congress too!

Enjoy your stay.

I'm glad you've found some DUers you can agree with. :hi: