When Does it Become Fascism?

Fascism does not spring up fully formed overnight, like Athena from the head of her father Zeus. Its architects build the foundation slowly, then they begin to invite people in, one at a time, then in groups of tens, then hundreds, then millions. At first, it is a radical fringe group. A hate movement that no one would admit to being affiliated with. Then, it is a right wing party. Then, it is a player. Then----

When does it become fascism?

We all recognize that this is fascism:

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/kristallnacht/frame.htm



But what about this?

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?site_area=1&aid=292



Or this?



Maybe we can use the “duck test”. If it quacks like a duck then it is a duck, right? Here is what Nazi propaganda sounds like:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/nazprop.html




http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb1.htm

Goebbels made this number one on his list of why the Jews were the enemy “1. The Jews are our destruction”


Here is how the anti-immigration camp quacks:

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=31705



http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/immigration_extremists.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_3



Sometimes the anti-Latino immigrants slip in some anti-Semitism, too. Must be the Nazi roots showing.

http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/immigration_extremists.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_3




How were Jewish people going to destroy German civilization?

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/nazprop.html




As those who read my recent journal entry recall, the main charges leveled against Latino immigrants by the spokespeople of the anti-immigrants movement were that they were dirty, disease infested, pedophile rapists, habitual criminals who use drugs. This is how Latinos are going to destroy our civilization. Oh, and they are going to bleed our economy dry, just the same way that the Nazis accused the Jews of bleeding the German economy dry.


So the anti-immigration movement in the U.S. walks and talks a lot like the Nazis in Germany, but does that make them budding fascists? Maybe they share other similarities, but lack some essential fascist characteristic. What exactly is fascism?

Here is a useful definition from Robert O. Paxton from the book Anatomy of Fascism:



Key characteristics
1.“At bottom is a passionate nationalism”
2.“a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions”
3.“the belief that one's group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external”
4.dread of the group's decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences”
5.“the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary”

Fascism, Paxton believes, has been useful for elites, because they can partner with fascist movements against socialist or other populist political groups which would rob the elites of their power. It presents a “young” or “fresh” political face, which is attractive to people who are tired of the old face of government, particularly in times of crisis (like a financial crisis caused by the monied elites). Paxton also points out “The United States itself has never been exempt from fascism”
Just how American can be seen in the meteoric rise of the national KKK in the 1920s, when the group which was originally founded to repress the freed slaves during Reconstruction became a cash cow which raked in millions in the name of keeping America white, Protestant and pure. The KKK was everywhere, not just in the South. Northern states had their own chapters.

http://www.msu.edu/course/mc/112/1920s/KKK/Jordan'sPaper.html





http://www.theamericanist.com/Americanist/January06/jan06-4.html



Is it fascism when organizations begin to recruit members who are attracted by the idea of ridding their nation of all “alien” influences in order to return to a state of purity? The KKK has recently begun to recruit new members for the first time in years, thanks to the anti-immigration movement. However, the U.S. did not actually descend into institutionalized federal fascism as a result of the Klan’s success in the 1920s. Instead, financial and sex scandals, brought down the Klan’s leadership and the nation elected FDR when the economy turned sour, rather than launching a pogrom against minorities and immigrants. It takes more. As Paxton points out, the elite who actually run the country have to get involved.

Oh my. But they already have.

I am not going to rehash all the ways that the Bush administration has used its so called War on Terra to initiate the first steps towards fascism. They had us waving flags and fearing the Enemy and giving up our civil liberties and circling our wagons and profiling Muslims and Arabs, the way the play book demands if you are trying to weaken a democracy and make it safe for fascism. However, the threat from a handful of Saudi terrorists over there is so vague. What they really needed was an internal threat. Something that would allow them to call out the National Guard using the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007

http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/911/

so that they could round up immigrants and confine them in Halliburton constructed camps where they could be put to work. All it would take is for a handful of Latinos to try to fight back when the Minutemen show up to use them for target practice on the border. Once that happens, all Latinos in the country will be suspect, since their sympathies will be presumed to lie with their incarcerated kinfolk. Good thing the President now has the power to declare even citizens enemy combatants. Lock them up, too. Let them pluck chickens for Tyson, with Halliburton collecting their wages. Or put them to work picking crops on the chain gang.

Mexico won’t like it. But hey, part of fascism is limited expansionism. If Mexico gets too uppity, that will give us an excuse to invade for the umpteenth time so that we can liberate all of that nationalized oil.

We are kidding ourselves if we think that no one in the far right is thinking this way in America right now. The right wing movement which tried to have FDR overthrown in a political coup and which is trying to stack our courts with Federalist judges can benefit from a fascist political movement, which can, in turn, benefit from partnering with the political elite. And a fascist political movement needs some group here at home to hate, preferably an immigrant group.

In times of economic hardship, it is even easier to sell messages of hate, since the working class wants to blame someone. While unions and the left attempt to blame the business owner and the politicians and the rich (income disparity has never been higher), the hate right says “Blame the immigrant. He is taking your job and using up your tax money.” And it is always easier to kick someone more vulnerable than it is to shake your fist at someone above you.

How will we know when fascism has begun to creep into the equation? Americans' will begin to lose their sense of neighborliness. We will stop seeing our neighbor's face, and we will start seeing our neighbor's race or ethnicity. It will no longer be "I don't like Miguel's Christmas ornaments." It will be "Those filthy Mexicans lower property values wherever they go. Maybe we should pass a city ordinance outlawing _____." The press will report on every crime of any sort--even moving vehicle violations--involving Hispanics, and the first question on everyone's lips will be "Was he legal?" That's because we will have begun seeing the world in Black and White. Just as there were once Good Negroes and Bad Negroes, now there will be Good Latinos and Bad Latinos.

Most ominous of all, We will also lose our sense of justice. The "all of us are created equal" doctrine will be thrown out the window. So, for instance, you might hear people talking about stripping Latino children who are born in the US of their citizenship rights and sending them away, because their parents were illegals. You might hear talk about letting a few Latinos enter the country to work for lower wages and no benefits but denying them the possibility of citizenship--ever--since they are not as good as us and when they get too old to work we want to send them back. And their kids and wives have to stay in Mexico. No more citizen babies. We might refuse to let them buy property or houses. They might have to pay more to become US citizens than other folks from around the world. We will begin to require that they carry their papers with them at all times, and no one can rent them (by them I mean anyone with a Spanish surname) an apartment or hire them or do business with them without asking for their papers, and if they do not produce their papers, they will be arrested. Or maybe we should just have them wear wrist bands with bar codes. Or badges----

Keep your eyes open, and when it is finally fascism, someone be sure to tell the rest of us, so that we can panic.

would be a more relevant question.

But I don't have the answer to that one either. Was it back in Ronnie's day or Bush the Elder, or did it happen when the Supreme Court appointed Bush the Stupider or perhaps it was in the weeks following 9/11? Might it even have been a few months before 9/11? One thing I do know is that PNAC had a huge, bloody hand in it, whether at it's start or during its acceleration. The second thing I know absolutely, is that it is here.

Sadly, so many people roll their eyes when I mention fascism and say such stupid things as, "We don't have concentration camps, so it can't be fascism.", completely missing the point that if I were using Germany's fascism as a reference point, I'm talking about the lead up to Hitler's seizure of power, a thing he did "legally" just as the fascists in our own government are now or another favorite, "If you invoke Hitler, the conversation's over", when I didn't, in fact, invoke Hitler.

I guess it's just too painful for many people to look at, and why wouldn't it, my clarion call of danger doesn't come with any easy solutions, because if it did, don't you think I would ride in like fucking Joan of Arc for the 21st century and whip me some fascist ass? Damn right I would. I hate knowing what I know without knowing how to save my country. It's infuriating and there are times I wish I had just taken the other pill. At least being a battery might have been less painful.

ago.

These tiny-peckered money-grubbing shit-weasels are on their last legs. Or, if we cannot remove these parasites, I will be on my last legs soon.

Until that time there was apparently an active 'impeach Bush' program within the newly-elected Congress -- a program that Reid and Pelosi proudly "cut off":

"One of the things that we were able to cut off pretty quickly is the 'impeach Bush' program," said Reid
--Christian Science Monitor, http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1116/p11s01-usmb.htm">6-Nov-2006

From Reply #94 below

has already crossed that barrier.

A recommend.

Very good post. Naomi Wolf has already convinced me that we are already well on our way, following the ten steps that every fascist regime takes.

So, while we quibble over the label and pretend it's just a matter of the 2008 election, we've LOST our self-governance and show ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS OF TAKING IT BACK. We deserve what we're getting unless and until we commit the "full measure" of our efforts to regain our democratic sovereignty.

We aren't ready to resist it yet.

Look at how Chris Dodd, Dennis Kucinich, Ron Paul and Mike Gravel have been marginalized, not just in the press, but in the polls, too. We still think we can cure cancer with an aspirin. We still think if we just elect a few more Democrats or a Democratic president, everything will be all right, even if that president won't give up on war, debt and the destruction of our economy.

No. Naomi Wolf is right about where we are as a nation, but we aren't ready to fight back. We may never be ready. America may just be a failed experiment.

Has never been anything but the actions of a few motivated citizens. The French resistance during World War II was under a direct occupier, nazis, and it could be counted in the thousands, if not hundreds. Resistance will start, for you at least (and maybe in general), when you will think about it and prefer risking everything than staying the course, living your day-to-day life.

Few people take that path, frankly. The majority will simply go on as usual, sympathizing in silence. Some will help, take small actions to show their support but just enough so, in their minds, they don't risk what they have left. And a few will risk it all.

This isn't resistance, so far. It's a rather timid opposition, fought with votes, petitions and peaceful marches. If History is to teach us anything, we better prepare for the worst 'cause pacifism has its limits in the face of full-blown fascism. Just ask Sophie Schöll.

has it come to that, then?

Perhaps.

Sad and disenchanted doesn't begin to describe the sense of loss. Apathy abounds in woeful glances and sideways comments speaking about subjugation. How much is enough people?

More Nazi Germany posts! What's a week without some good comparison of Bush and Hitler?

Look at my post above. Too funny. And I hadn't read past the first reply when I posted that. Fucking hilarious.

Look at the leadership of the Democratic Party. Some who like to call themselves moderates or centrists are afraid to challenge the openly racist and divisive politics of the anti-immigration movement, because they are afraid. When a political movement is so intimidating that it can make even supposedly mainstream political leaders afraid to speak out against injustice, hate, bigotry and violence---things which our Constitution and Declaration of Independence stand against---then you know that something is wrong with your democracy.

If the Democrats had spines, the next Democratic debate would find the candidates united in denouncing the hate rhetoric of the anti-immigration right and using this issue as a way to show that they are the party of true American values, while the GOP is the party of bigotry and fear mongering.

Behind many prominent dems inaction and unwillingness to challange. Try complicitous. The "oppositional" half of the one corporate party is largely in place as a ruse.

"Never Again" means it's never going to happen again, certainly not here, so we don't have to worry about it.

Now shut up and support your leaders.

Sheesh!

-Hoot

I guess it's true what they say. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. :puke:

It makes me sick. Human beings, no matter what their race, creed, or color, are all the same.

Barbaric Primates.

The Jews and the Blacks have always been so much smarter than the white men in this country. Tell me it isn't so!

(give or take, these are estimations)

And, as I said, no one is smarter than anyone else in the end. We are all smarter in some areas, dumb in others, average in yet more. That's what makes the world go 'round, to use a poor cliche or two, vive le difference.

But of course you were probably being sarcastic. :shrug:

Maybe a :sarcasm: icon next time?

:hi:

The Blacks and Jews have historically voted their own interest which included support for people around them (social programs) and for the Democrats, who were the party more for the folks who weren't millionaires. I'm not sure what we are now, but again, the Blacks and Jews weren't as easily manipulated by fear tactics and games as the whites were, in general. When you talk person to person, your statement is more true than mine, when I talk statistics, mine is or was more true. I don't know a single Jew or Black who doesn't vote Democrat, but personal examples are not a good reference, nor are a few aberrational crazy people (oops, my bias is showing).

As it is, I have never felt threatened by posting on this website, so if it was fascism, it isn't very good.

They are cloaking it in "legal" ways (just as the most successful fascist governments have done in the past - couldn't we have done something unique?)and when they get their tiered internet ("legally"), it will slowly destroy your ability to post without feeling threatened or even, if fact, to post.

Not one tiny bit.

I was full of fire and vigor, even 3 years ago. I feel the coming storm more intensely now and I am no longer fearless. In fact, I am quite frightened.

That was the day the known will of the electorate was consciously ignored and superceded by the actions of a minority "elite."

That was the day that Congress chose Stalinism ("..those who count the votes decide") over Americanism ("power can only be derived from the consent of the governed") by refusing to disallow the unlawful Florida electors.

That event -- far worse than 9/11 -- has eaten through the fabric of our once-great democracy like an acid. It has grown more manifest and far-reaching, particularly with the repeat of the same procedure in 2004.

And while you might want to call it something else, it's really all the same thing.

The current failure to impeach the never-elected, never-legitimate regime for offenses up to and including war crimes is just another benchmark on our downward spiral.

It is not inevitable that it continues, but there is no demonstrable reason for optimism either.

---

The Bush regime, and its sympathizers, is clearly a fascist one, even though they use the term "Islamofascist" to divert attention away from themselves.

Few realized it, no one noticed the passing of the Old American Republic, but it was then.

people tend to think of 12/12/2000 and it's attending times as the "Beginning of the End", but now I see that it was much more than that. I see that BushPutinism did not spring from the earth overnight.

12/12/2000 was the Beginning of the End of the End...the Last Couple Acts and settle in with your popcorn and Milk-Duds because the roller-coaster of action, suffering, and emotion is coming up next!

Except that some nagging part of me wonders if there was some election fraud and other dirty stuff involved even in 2002, in which case, maybe there is still hope for us. I keep remembering that the Germans' response to depression was Hitler and ours was FDR. Are we too different? Maybe there are so many different ethnic groups and religions in this country that no one will ever be able to draw them all together into one nationalist goose stepping organization (except for a left wing "cant't we all get together left fest" style group), because one wing of the party will be too busy despising another wing of the party.

If so, vive la difference!

On the other hand, television has homogenized the country a lot since 1930.

When my neighbor's rights are violated, it's "Homeland Security."

When my rights are violated, it's Fascism.

:sarcasm:

And The president burns down the capitol.


There are interesting parallels between the treatment of legal Hispanic immigrants and German Jews.

To the Illegal immigrants, often the scapegoating parallel applies.

And Blackwater is the very embodiment of fascism no matter what color their shirts are.

"Nice post" in my reply above.

Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time.

:toast:

:dem:

I posted it, in part because I believe that the Democratic candidates can get on the correct side of this issue and use it to strangle this burgeoning hate movement, before it has a chance to cost us an election, the way that Fear the Muslim cost us the 2002 election.

However, the rank and file need to stop being wishy-washy and let the candidates know that we will not tolerate fascist politics or candidates who tolerate fascist politics, even if that tolerance is nothing more than an unwillingness to discuss the issue for fear of moving off the line painted on the center of the road.

You can not not have an opinion on the issue of bigotry and hate.

America loves the "Can't we all get along with each other" message much more than any fear message. Even Reagan did better when he was upbeat.

Many individuals existing in fascist societies have dared to ask the question, "Are we living in a fascist society?"

That answer is a bit of a cliche, isn't it? I hear it on talk radio all the time, even from the Democrats.

Isn't one of the first signs of a fascist society that people are telling you that if it were fascist, you could not question it?

than we were, even in 2004. I don't have hard facts, just intuition. Perhaps I'm just getting tired and my intuition is wrong, but my intuitive abilities are my strongest suit and I ignore such things at my great peril.

reminds me of a poem... and also of the ostrich and the hole in the ground.

By the way, people WERE ALLOWED to speak their displeasure in Nazi Germany as late as '45.

They just were not allowed to do it in ways where waves were for real....

Hell, not that most people realize this, but THERE WAS AN ACTIVE RESISTANCE in the Germany of WW II. One which the allies refused to assist, and that was a strategic decision

Wow. Cool.

What else can you do?

:P

:toast:

rock on, Will.

I guess all things progressive must eventually roll to a point where they come to rest, or rust, as it were.

:crazy:

Nor will most of us, even the most strident of us.

The people driven to the camps will be people that the vast majority of Americans cannot identify with or care for, like "illegal aliens" and "muslim extremists" and "islamic terrorists".

Those of us officially ensconced in advocacy for one of the many "approved" parties have nothing to fear. It is the people outside in the political cold who will be attacked (physically) first; then those who cause the powers that be real problems (whistleblowers, folks like Naomi Wolf, folks like Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, Sibel Edmonds). It will never come to "bloggers" having their rights violated.

If we become a serious threat, then some form of net-neutrality-non-neutrality-licensing-whatever will be imposed "for the safety of the children from online solicitation" to either keep track of what we say (an arduous process) or more likely, simply limit access to those who can pay to blog and are willing to pay a subscription to each blog they post on (with credit card and personal information understandably available on demand to the gummint).

Ordinary folks who go about their lives and don't do anything more "seditious" than bitching have nothing to fear from fascism. After all, everyone is expected to bitch a little bit. That don't harm anyone, least of all the government.

All they expect is for you NOT to act. So long as you don't ACT, you can say whatever the hell you want.

Why? This is a California 20-something who was able to 'infiltrate' al-Qaeda (something our much-heralded CIA seems incapable of doing), and pled 'guilty' of being a member of the Taliban - but NOT of killing anyone.

The sole rationale I can even think of is that he's totally cut off from communicating with anyone - serving the "hardest" time imaginable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh


List of prisoners at ADX Florence

* Omar Abdel-Rahman, 34892-054, Islamist terrorist, nicknamed "The Blind Sheik"; involved in World Trade Center bombing planning in 1993
* Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso, 16802-050, mobster and former underboss of the Lucchese crime family
* Wadih el-Hage, 42393-054, conspirator in the 1998 United States embassy bombings
* Matthew F. Hale, 15177-424, white supremacist leader; convicted of soliciting the murder of a federal judge
* Robert Hanssen, 48551-083, FBI agent; convicted of spying for the Soviet Union and Russia
* Larry Hoover, 86063-024, leader of the Gangster Disciples Nation based in Chicago
* Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano, of the Gambino crime family
* Theodore Kaczynski, 04475-046, the "Unabomber"
* David Lane (deceased), 12873-057, Neo-Nazi leader, involvement in Alan Berg's murder
* John Walker Lindh, 45426-083, dubbed "The American Taliban"
* Juan Matta-Ballesteros, 37671-133, drug trafficker, co-conspirator in Enrique Camarena case
* Zacarias Moussaoui, 51427-054, conspirator in the September 11, 2001 attacks
* Terry Nichols, 08157-031, Oklahoma City Bombing conspirator
* Richard Colvin Reid, 24079-038, Islamic terrorist, "Shoe Bomber"
* Eric Robert Rudolph, 18282-058, Christian Identity terrorist, Olympic Park bomber
* Dwight York, 17911-054, leader of the Nuwaubianists; convicted for child molestation, racketeering and financial reporting charges
* Ramzi Yousef, 03911-000, Islamist terrorist, 1993 World Trade Center bombing
* Timothy McVeigh (deceased), Oklahoma City Bombing executed on June 11, 2001
* Kenneth McGriff, 26301-053, an American drug trafficker and organized crime figure.
* H. Rap Brown, 99974-555, former civil rights activist convicted of murdering an Alabama sheriff.
* Omar Portee, 30063-037, founder of the New York City faction of the Bloods street gang.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_at_ADX_Florence

It seems the Supermax isn't just for violent prisoners - it's for POLITICAL prisoners, too.

Naomi Wolf made that clearer to me.
staircases of horizontal and verticals along the way. we have gone through many verticals, but many still deny. But when the apex is reached, the landing will happen FAST and almost overnight.

On the day after the US Government launched attacks against America.

The Bush regime was able to whip up hatred against those who are "different".

The Bush regime was able to start the process of taking away our rights.

That's when fascism began.

Let me get the tinfoil :tinfoilhat:

there's that old saying --

"You can only really be betrayed by those closest to you -- "


Unfortunately, Dems played a big role in abetting those who gave us the 9/11 farce ---

and then, onward to Iraq --- !!!


Unbelievable . . . but it happened here in America --- and "illegal" war of aggression
against another nation.

and corporate malfeasance to win the election (see Paxton on how the elite money class allies with the fascism to retain power, even with the public is fed up with the old elite class for its mishandling of the economy, business, money etc.)

That election should have been the Dems, since no Bush was running and since Enron was fresh on everyone's mind and the economy was tanking. But the GOP and the administration used Fear the Muslim and Fear Iraq very successfully, with lots of Terra warnings (all bogus) and the one hour till impact crap and profiling Arab-Americans that no one in the US dared to say a word about.

That was a fascist political victory. We got four years of uninterrupted Bush/Cheney rule from that.

Is someone hoping for a repeat of 2002 in 2008 with Fear the Latino as the centerpiece? If so, why the hell aren't the Democrats rushing to confront the anti-immigration hate movement with its own bigoted hate rhetoric? The majority of Americans can not tolerate overt hate speech. They do not want to be on the side of the police dogs and the police men wielding fire hoses against the Black school children who illegally challenged segregation.

They are too scared. That really worries me.

the forces behind the last batch of fascists realized that hitler and co. couldn't win against the united states and realized that they needed to make us fascist if they wanted to make the world into a fascist empire.

had collected for Hitler from all over the world, including cashing in American dollars and shipping gold to Hitler . . .

wanted a return on their investment . . . and to resurrect their One World Order/fascist futures ---

They moved the gold back into Nazi hands via the Vatican rat holes and moved Nazis into America.

The Vatican helped moved Nazis all over the globe to protect them ---

Operation Paperclip --- evidently, JFK was recognizing the consequences of that ---

CIA was a place for elites to congregate --- and to do their dirty work ---
privatized army ---

the government can arrest us without cause and hold us indefinitely, when our government uses torture as a tool for freedom, when a country invades sovereign nations for imperial purposes, when corporations use an illegal war to make unlimited profits, when the government uses propaganda to influence the people, when the news media is taken over by corporations favoring the fascist government, when prisons are built to hold "detainees" indefinitely w/o warrants, like Taylor Texas, when most of our Congress peoples are members of the rich elite, in other words, it's f******** too late. Humpty friggin' Dumpty fell off the wall and can't be fixed. I won't give up and I am ready to fight for freedom, but still in the minority. It is going to have to get a lot worse to get the attention of the masses.

I'm with you; it's hard to know what to do.

Thanks for the post!



:)

president chose to let him off the hook on all the outstanding matters that Poppy Bush and his cronies were being exposed by a few stalwart Dem lawmakers.

All the fascists needed was a Dem in office who would side with their secrecy and privilege instead of with the right of American citizens to honest and open government accountable to the people.

With no accountability and no congressional scrutiny they took their global operations private and continued their agenda until they could regain the WH with renewed strength and with billions of dollars available to appropriate.


http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

Will we vote to allow the fascist agenda to continue?

BCCI --- Savings & Loan Theft & Embezzlements --- October Surprise ---
probably Carter's rescue missions sabotaged ---

Election 2000 and many before it and those after it ---

The Establishment is a conspiracy and probably fascism ---

Our entire patriarchal structure built on hierarchies is conspiracy and fascism ---

Unregulated capitalism is fascism ---


An economy based on exploitation of nature, natural resources, animal-life ---
and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority ---

f a s c i s m

Excellent. They should show this in school's nowadays.

and the violence they were doing in our name all around the world --- ???

Very few, I think --- ????

I certainly have always had nightmares about this time arriving ---

We've had a long GOP push to take us backwards . . .

We need to reply by nationalizing OIL --- taking control back from the few private families who
currently own it ---

We need to demand Electric Cars ---

....but do we think that even the Democrats are concerned about what we think --- ???

Hartmann was discussing today -- and I didn't hear all of it ---
that Hillary would be "fulfilling her promise" when she arrived in office ....
at least that's what Hartmann thinks/hopes ---

Like FDR and Lincoln . . . their destiny before them, but unknown until they arrive in office.

Could be --- don't bank on it!!!


Personally, the arrogance and ignoring of the public that I see suggests a world of safety that
these people feel comfortable about continuing . . . we are not a threat to them by any means.

Neither are we an influence on them by any means . . .

why isn't stuff like this spread virally through forward e-mails, instead of that fear mongering chain letter crap? hmm, think i'll go email this to 10 people i know...

so basically, right about now (with a few precious years left before we all give over all our rights to either stop terrorism or higher health insurance).

it isn't so bad.. turn on those dallas cowboys on your tv:kick:

how much was at risk and how faked the game is ---

Did they?

because it is illegal or 'dangerous'.

It's when you have to watch what you say.

The Nazis allowed the Jews to have interest groups and discussions and newspapers etc, etc, etc.

They didn't even prevent them from saying what they wanted. They just arrested and murdered those who said what they shouldn't have.

that can reverse the negative emotion that the hate-the-immigrants right wing is trying to instill in the American people. If citizens of the United States begin to recall their (not so distant) immigrant heritage, including their struggles and the adversities they faced and the helping hands they may have encountered, they will better understand the struggles of Latino immigrants.

Here is a link to a site with info about it:

http://www.pluginz.com/community/news/6110

Common ground is always better than open war.

the people, why would we expect any candidate that isn't screaming about the constitution, impeachment and the war to do anything to change the direction of the country?

We have a choice but we may have to change or typical ways of voting. If we continue to elect the same people that never really speak up for us then how can we expect to get a different result.

that's the switch --- and it was downhill from there ---

I think Naomi Wolf says that the last stages begin to happen more quickly -- I agree.

There are a lot of fascist moments in our past ---

from the GOP fascist rally to stop the vote count in 2000 ---

the SC decision by the gang of five ---

Strange violent deaths of politicians ---

VOTESCAM --- see the website, please . . .


And the probably many, many murders that occurred before JFK --- Dag Hammarsjold of the UN ---
Adlai Stevenson . . . probably many, many before even handfuls recognized what was happening.
This has always been a violent gene pool which imposed itself on this continent!!!

9/11, of course --- and hopefully some day soon the true homegrown "terrorists" who brought that
horror upon us will be exposed ---

Just curious as to who assasinated him and why?

the suspected political assassinations. I don't recall the reasons given.
I would frequently see the name of Dag Hammarschjold mentioned --- and it
was kind of like that.

Unfortunately, I don't recall what I read of Adlai or even if there was much on it--
Dag is obvious.

I had taken for granted that his was just an unfortunate death at 65 ....

In looking around now --- and I have to say that the internet info is shrinking and becoming
almost inane --- but he was an obvious progressive --- he was involved in the founding of the UN.
From what I've read of him he was quite popular, personally --- and had many fans in the
liberal Hollywood community. I'm suspecting that he might have held the view that there was a coup on JFK --

If I again come upon anything interesting on his death or the suspicions I read about them,
I'll post it ---

it needn't be called or actually be "fascism" to be inordinately oppressive. Check out Greece circa mid twentieth century. I think they called that "liberal democracy."

K&R

Same goes for those fundamentalist preachers who spout hate. I see no reason to tolerate those scumbags. They're primitive subhumans -- people who have every savage instinct that held us back for so long, with nothing redeeming about them whatsoever.

Whenever we have hate preachers on my campus, I've had to restrain myself from getting a heavy blunt object and...well, you get the picture. It gets harder every time.

BushCo and the Republicans, however, are corporatists. They'll do anything to boost the profits of their little group. They don't particularly care what race/creed/sexuality the wage slaves are, so long as they can use something to divide us and keep us from voting our interests, instead of our fears.

class. Like the KKK in the 1920s, their ideal is the White, middle class Protestant English speaking heterosexual American. They will ally with the wealthy and the corporations to achieve power, just as people like the Bushes will ally with them, in order to achieve and keep power.

Anti-communism (read anti-Russia) was the American Fascism of the mid 20th Century and they used it with some success to slow down the progress that women and minorities and unions had begun to make during WWII. Now, Russia is gone. They need something to take its place.

Sometimes I would skip class to debate with them. Prolly why my grades sucked, oh well it was fun.

I wouldnt shoot anyone unless they attacked me or broke into my home.

I remember one girl got offended because she walked by as the preacher was shouting "whore!" (he was actually quoting Revelations, BUT when the girl came over he said "well it wasnt directed at you maam but if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one you hit" It took me and another guy to pull her off of him.

Wouldnt trade those memories for the world, but I digress, who cares what they say, just a bunch of douchebags.

what is there to say to that kind of hate?

Othewise I might get shot.

Ghandi would be proud.

Savage, know thyself.

Gawd, I despise neo-nazis.

It's "Enhanced Conservatism".

:sarcasm:

Due to the strong emotions around the term as it related to our "enemies" in WW II the word has become a rather flat insult term. That is too bad in my opinion as it helps to hide the motivations of many players in the struggle for power. I feel you hit the nail on the head in discussing the element of hyper nationalized racism in fascism. However I don't think that racism per se was or is the defining aspect of fascism. To me it is more a natural result or consequence that easily flows from it. When I look at the few expressly avowed fascist regimes like Italy, Spain, Argentina and to a lesser degree Germany there are other factors that pop up as ubiquitous. (Germany is sort of a special case as they took on the mantel of fascism over time, as the Nazi movement was at first something quite different. Hence the name National Socialism. In order to get money they dumped the latter and quickly this convenience became a necessity as they became openly Fascist despite the old name.) To me the clear unifier is a hyper nationalism combined with a merger of corporate/big business/industry interests and the state apparatus.

From there it is easy to see the need for a unifying enemy to demonize, but it need not be so vicious as it was in Germany or has been here for so long. There are many roots to such bigotry that are different from place to place and time to time. Fear of change/differences and tribalism have been with us long before Fascism and equating the two I feel only makes addressing the older issue more difficult by clouding its roots. Anti semitism in general has grown and branched into a million different forms and motivations, but much of the European variety can be easily traced back to Christianity and the early scism between Jewish Christians and the Gentiles. Follow this with a collapse of culture (such as it was) and you have quite a fertile ground for stupidity to thrive. The Nazis inherited this and used it for their purposes. It was certainly not something they introduced to the German people. Then one can look at the nations that at some point flirted openly with Fascism like a few latin American, European and Asian countries and the pattern is still there. The trick is to look at the less open flirtations and to call a spade a spade. This was your initial question.

The United states did in fact openly discuss it at one point. The terms Fascist Economics and Corporatism were brandied about openly in the 20's and 30's and Hitler and Mussolini were quite popular figures here through most of that time as well. Luckily socialism (hidden in other labels) was more ascendant by the 30's though, but the opposition made no attempts to hide where it was coming from. W's grandfather was an open supporter like Ford and others and made a ton of money from Nazi contracts as did IBM and many others. Many of these ties were kept going right up to and even after hostilities broke out. It was with much reluctance that they were finally severed. The loyalties of spirit were clear as the enforced loyalty to not being punished finally won out. So what happened? Drop the name and all is forgotten. Indeed we have a very Fascist system to our economy right now and have so for decades. It may be fair to say that, without actually inventing the label, we were party to the foundation of Fascism (Corporatism) in the 1880s. We called it the Gilded Age, The age of Monopolies, Robber Barons, Captains of Industry etc.. depending on your personal view of it. Nothing is black and white and there are no clear and sharp borders anywhere despite our longings for such simplicity, but I would say we have been Fascist easily since the 50s with roots of it going back much further than the term itself. The other trappings like an enemy to galvanize our intellects against the corrosive forces of reason, the weakening of democracy, hyper nationalism etc.. have also long been a part of out culture in the US. Will or have they all come together to form a perfect storm? To some degree I believe they have, but I also feel that it can change. In fact I know it will. Perhaps for the better perhaps for the worse. If we want to make it positive I am convinced that hiding from the truth will not help. So call a duck and duck indeed. We have been trying to call it a swan for way too long!

:bounce:

that I technically use... which is more properly corporatism

and violent racist, zenophobic groups are being allowed to thrive in certain regions of the US--no doubt the most uneducated areas. This administration needs these rabid cultists to join Blackwater and do it's dirty work for them, sickening. Bar having an anti-military industrial complex president win in 2008, or impeachment proceedings beginnning, I cannot think of how this country can dig out of this hole we are in.

11/22/63 sealed the deal.

. . .it's all fascism. It is all rule by a faction who believes they have some inherent right to do so.

As long as Members of Congress refuse to impeach the USA will remain a Fascist, War Criminal nation that spies on it's own citizens.

Impeaching Bush and Cheney is the ONLY meaningful way to preserve the People’s sovereignty. sovereignty. It is the only meaningful way to voice objection in the name of the American People for that which they never provided their consent.

We "hire" Members of Congress to do three things: 1) put our will into law; 2) keep watch on the people we "hire" to execute and enforce the law; and 3) "fire" the "bad apples." Lawmaking is perhaps the least critical of the legislative functions. If the existing body of law isn't being enforced, making new law is meaningless.

The legislative enforcement function -- impeachment and removal of bad apples -- is as central to the integrity of our government as the criminal justice system is to the integrity of civil society.

Corrupt officials don't break a government. We designed the system to deal with them. It is ultimately the failure of the enforcers that destroys. As loathe as we may be to admit it, it is the failure of the Democratic Congress to impeach -- to enforce -- that has broken our government.

Even worse, if that is possible, is the "reason" they refuse -- i.e., their (irrational) fear of political damage. Pelosi's "off the table" edict constitutes the most reprehensible of all "corrupt bargains" -- trading duty for personal/political gain.

http://january6th.org/talking-impeachment-customize.pdf">Talking Impeachment in a Foreign Land (the DC Beltway) (PDF)
A four-panel, bifold flyer that summarizes the simple truths and moral principles
that contradict the "reasons" (rationalizations) for dereliction of duty.

It became fascism seven years ago. For me the bigger question is "When did fascism become acceptable in the US?" This has occurred because it has been permitted to occur.

Well, maybe it is a duck...but it's an American duck. That makes all the difference.
( :sarcasm: lest there be doubt )

There were the patrons derived mostly from old aristocracy in Spain and Italy, the semi corporate partnerships in Germany and our own pure corporate model. I'm sure it can come in many more ways. It isn't necessary for there to be absolute oppression, a total end to democratic forms etc. It is a power struggle and the intensity of that grows with fear like all struggles. And all the players are in the same boat with a shared history to define themselves from. Our system is not very afraid at the moment. We can post our silly notions on websites all we like. We can go through the motions of voting for tweedle dee or tweedle dum as well. We have many structures in place to keep things cozy and safe for the string pullers. (over saturation with teevee entertainment, virtual corporate information monopoly, poor education, poor health care (fear), the American myth that numbs people into accepting a dog eat dog system and on and on...) I have no doubt they would do worse if they felt the need.

To some degree the increasing levels of violence against the people is a sign that the people are waking up and asking questions and challenging the system. Not that this is very consoling. They must also live with their own myths. We have always pretended that we were a democracy and depended on that illusion for a sense of worth. It would be very hard to simply toss out these rituals even as meaningless and empty as they have become. There need be no conspiracy or planning cabal for this. It is a natural evolution. To guide it one has to recognize it. That is a scary thing and the vast majority have not gone there. Most of us are more comfortable with villains and good guys. With forces that willfully act with intelligence. In the grand scheme there is no such thing. Every individual plays their part muddling through on there own trying to make sense out of their life including the most common meme of trying to ignore it and just going for the same things as their neighbor hoping no one will point out the hollowness of that life (and generally reacting with furious rage and violence to anyone who does). The summation of these mostly blind twitchings is what we call our state and society. Nothing new there. The rich have had the power and the powerful have had the wealth too for all of history. Nothing new there either. Fascism then is simply a modern form of this old game. It is just as absurd as the old games that we have left (mostly) in the dust as we have become more and more sophisticated in our understanding.

It wasn't so long ago that even all our Gods were little more than squabbling children. Many still cling to that and prefer their God figure to be some kind of extra clever club wielding thug (sadly a lot of folks of every so called religious stripe) but the fantasy for a universal deity or non deity has steadily grown. I see that as a sign of where our hearts and minds are as a people. Many have even been able to let go of having a separated deity all together. Including many religious folks. (Read Bishop Spong or Dieter Bahnhofer for good examples of deeply religious/spiritual souls who in the end still claim a place for God without the need for a theistic deity. That is an a-theistic God if you will) So we are beginning to step out from the paradigm that right makes right as a species. It won't happen overnight. It has been happening since we first recognized ourselves abstractly as something. We began to pay attention to the other and to feel an empathy. We made up codes to promote this feeling. Often it was lip service, more often it became so over time, but it keeps coming back. Every time deeper than the last. Perhaps we will destroy ourselves with our myopic greed first, but perhaps not. I like to feel that I am spending my precious blink of time here working for ....enlightenment, peace, unity, ... whatever label you like best sister and brother. It makes no difference. Well I have really gone off on a digression here. Sometimes it all just starts to fall out and there it is.

:P

until then everything's perfectly normal, nothing to see here, move along now...

(good post, btw)