"In my lifetime, I've never seen an ape turned into a human." Florida hearing on science standards.

How do they do it? They just turn things around and put their own spin on them.

From the hearing yesterday on the new Florida science standards which plan to include the teaching of evolution in science classes.

Foes of new science education standards try a new strategy.



What a strange statement coming from a former educator who should know better.

The director of Florida State University's program on the history and philosophy of science says this is the 4th strategy to keep evolution from being taught.



Both sides have threatened lawsuits.



The majority of School Board members in two Florida counties, and a school superintendent in one of those counties, have doubts about teaching evolution unless it is "balanced" by teaching creationism beside it.



A local paper called out people who are running away from science. They called it Fuzzy Science



I don't know if the hearings on this issue are completed or still ongoing. I do know many eyes have been opened at the power of the religious right in Florida and their influence on public schools. That is probably a good thing to have happen.

I hear Chuck Norris stood with Mike Huckabee last night, nodding behind him. Norris is a leader in the battle for teaching the Bible in public schools. And I hear Texas is about to have some battles on this topic of evolution as well.

Oddly enough, many such "people" are abjectly ignorant of the hows and whys of the scientific method, imagine that. :eyes:

how someone can even begin to make that argument with a straight face is beyond me. She sounds like a drunk.

i don't even know how to argue with these people..... it's not worth it....

If they accept the fact that humans are mammals then they must accept the fact that humans are scientifically classed in the animal category instead of plant.

she gave me some line like...... animals don't think and reason like humans do therefore we are not animals.... that's what I mean -- I can't even argue with someone like her - all I can do is roll my eyes and walk away..... and she is not a dumb woman in other ways..... an ex alcoholic who is now a xian who says jesus is her lord and savior....... regarding the war in Iraq, she says ...well we don't REALLY know the truth of what's going on over there so we just have to trust the prezident

my blood boils - but there is no changing these people I don't think. She of course likes Huckabee and....... fred thompson......... oy vey

And I'm sure my Poodles are smarter than your neighbor.

That was back in the late 1970's.

I wonder if public schools are allowed to share that information with students anymore..?

but remember Desmond Morris, and "The Naked Ape?" Do they think evolution happens in 5 or 10 years?

'In my lifetime, I've never seen an ape turned into a human.'

What about Bush?

"I've never seen us come from slime,"

What about Cheney?


Anyway, if she thinks evolutionists think it all happened in her lifetime, she's even more idiotic than most creationists!

and to me, Chuck Norris looks a little like an ape, so who knows?

in evolution despite having access to a mirror.

Chuck Norris and * are proof that we are related to the apes.

or walk on water, part the Red Sea, ascend to heaven on Seraphim's wings...etc...

Maybe your church shouldn't teach it then...

We should start a movement to start teaching science (and critical thinking) in churches!

It needs a catchy name though, one which is not so obvious in intent.

"Demonstrative" always sounded slightly philosophical to me...and it would be us Agnostics who would preach it...not the Atheists.

"demonic" or something. ;)

What about just calling it Informative Doctrine - also known as I.D.?

Very good.

My only problem with this whole argument is that some people need myth in their lives. To some people, religion is the knot at the end of their rope. Religion does help some people. Some of us are spiritual, but not religious. Some are religious, but not very spiritual.

Most of the time I feel like DU is a lot like Freeperville in this regard... if we don't believe what you believe, you are the idiot. I don't like that at all.

I don't think it's as bad, and frankly I feel that it's gotten harder and harder to respect creationists. They have started this war on science and I'll be damned if I ignore it out of trying to not offend them. Sorry. Had they left their beliefs at their respective temples instead of trying to break down the separation of church and state, I would go back to ignoring and/or respecting their beliefs.

Honestly, not believing in evolution is like being a Geocentrist or flat earther, and that is not an exaggeration. They are specifically and systematically trying to create doubt in people's understanding of science because they are afraid of it. Our country does not need to become more ignorant.

I'm fine with myth, but we have to understand that myth is not the same thing as reality. If God (or Whomever/whatever) gets someone through the day, that's fine, but it never ends there: some people decide that they need to kill people because they are different or that anything which makes them doubt their own faith needs to be destroyed.

I can have an intelligent argument with people who disagree with me on many subjects. I cannot have an intelligent argument on ID because in my humble opinion, there isn't one and with all of the press these stories have gotten the past few years, I have no patience or respect for people saying things like "it's just a theory!" or "it's not proven!" without making any effort to understand what a Theory is or that it has been experimented, studied, and defended for 150 years now.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. If people want me to not stridently defend science, then they should tell their fellow Christians to study the subject so they stop sounding like fools.

The book condradicts itself too many times to be taken litterally. If spitting in the face of the greatest tool God (if he/she/it exists) ever gave us is "faith" then these people need to be cannonized.

Faith and religion are all fine, but anyone who takes anything litterally and without the slightest bit of reasonable doubt is an idiot: That includes Atheism.

Thewre is always room to doubt and you are only human.

when I can teach evolution in your church."

An old quote, but a wise one.

what about *???

that's a human turned into an ape. :rofl:

:shrug:

witnessed this directly, but some have. Likewise, some have observed evolutional and hybrid changes within one or two generations of a species. Not many have, but it has been documented. Evolution is not a theory.

whose existance allows prediction of physically measured values to within 10^21 (similar to using a bb gun to hit a coke can, when the coke can is on the moon)?

A lot of science is non-intuitive and not directly experienced. Its predictive value makes it true.

It is disheartening, to say the least, that in the year 2008, we hear this discussed as a serious issue.

Is there a textbook on I.D.?

Good luck in recreating the experiment...

making the change. It must be the water they drink?

Just been told that its the beer they drink.

That was some idiot's argument which was all over YouTube a few months ago!

Good thing- I wouldn't want idjits like that in my house.

Including that cottage cheese that expired in January, 2004. I swear it growled at me yesterday.

"I think that students should be given the opportunity to view all theories on how man evolved and let their science background and their religious background take over as to which one they believe in," said Gallucci, also the immediate past president of the National School Boards Association.

Creationism is not a sceintific theory and evolution is not something to be supported by "belief". Another fallacy: "I think .....", said Gallucci.

Otherwise, sue for discrimination against religious minorities! Equal time for other myths.
He, he.
:evilgrin:

This was my grandfather's solution when the issue came up in the 1960s.

Maybe teach epicycles as an alternative to Newton's Theory of Gravity in astronomy?

Okay, fine, but these knuckle-draggers are simply trying to get their view of creationism in the curriculum. Let's hear about the Mayan creation story or the Iroquois creation story, the Hindu, etc... It's just another way to break down the separation of church and state!

All other sects should have their view taught as well! You hit a nerve... in a good way:) This is the prime reason government and religion should never mingle.

Besides, if God had wanted to force his laws and views upon us all, he would have... he is certainly powerful enough to have done it from the beginning... but if you follow the myth, it seems to me that Fundies are doing what God chose not to do. I would think that would piss him off royal. How dare they!

Shall we teach alternatives in history class?

nt

And not from Rs? :rofl:

Seriously, evolution happened for both specias at once. We and they were the same gene pool once when both were different, and both evolved.

"Did apes evolve from humans?" has equal validity as a question.

:eyes:

One word:MRSA.
Stupid fucks.
:banghead:

The result is that they have no coherent understanding about how evolution works. They just know it's an offense to god, or so their particular brand of religion says.

who the f*** cares the origin of man. Here's an idea, remove ALL reference to the origin of man from scientific curriculum. It isn't necessary to have an opinion or knowledge of any theory or belief to the study of any science. I have known Hindu, Muslim, Christian, atheist, Jewish physicians...guess what they all have reconciled their faith and their intellect and are able to perform their job just fine. This is really an argument between zealots on all sides of this issue, the rest of us will believe what we will with no harm (or concern) to anyone else.

Anyone who wants to study genetics need a solid grounding in evoltionary theory. Evolutionary theory is very intertwined with much of modern biology (including stuff like DNA technology). You need to teach it in biology, period.Plus stuff like bacterial drug resistance..

But every scientist out there either did or should have learned about evolution in elementary school.

Do you know any "genetic scholars?"

it just isn't. I am far more concerned that our elementary kids can't read or write at the same level as the rest of the planet. That most of our kids don't know a second language when they graduate high school. That many high school kids can't make change for a $2.68 purchase from a $5 without electronic help. Human origin theory is unimportant to me until a whole bunch of other far more serious issues are cleared up. The only people who are worked up about it are zealots who will teach their own kids what they will anyway.

I don't know any genetic scholars but I have a very hard time believing that NONE consider themselves Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Hindu.

addition and subtraction either? Evolutionary biology is BASIC biology. Should we wait on germ theory too? Maybe its okay for kids to thnk they are getting sick because they sinned? Geez everytime somebody talks about DNA/paternity testing they are talking about something based on evolutionary theory.
Oh and is it okay for kids to believe that somebody of a different skin tone is inferior to them? A basic understanding of how evolution produced different races will also help with racism. Do you understand now how these BASIC principles have a lot of benefit to understanding the world around them?
Geez, protecting kids from "unnecessary" knowledge is something I thought the fundies had an exclusive license.
And yes, some geneticists are religious, but most of the ones I have met are not particularly relgious and keep their beliefs out of science.
If kids are old enough to be taught about "God" they are old enough to learn about the basic workings of the world. Or perhaps you think children have no need to learn how to think for themselves?

addition and subtraction either? Evolutionary biology is BASIC biology. Should we wait on germ theory too? Maybe its okay for kids to thnk they are getting sick because they sinned? Geez everytime somebody talks about DNA/paternity testing they are talking about something based on evolutionary theory.
Oh and is it okay for kids to believe that somebody of a different skin tone is inferior to them? A basic understanding of how evolution produced different races will also help with racism. Do you understand now how these BASIC principles have a lot of benefit to understanding the world around them?
Geez, protecting kids from "unnecessary" knowledge is something I thought the fundies had an exclusive license.
And yes, some geneticists are religious, but most of the ones I have met are not particularly relgious and keep their beliefs out of science.
If kids are old enough to be taught about "God" they are old enough to learn about the basic workings of the world. Or perhaps you think children have no need to learn how to think for themselves?

I have a degree in biotechnology and chemistry. My love of science, INCLUDING evolutionary biology, began in elementary school. By 5th grade our class was learning about Mendel's experiments with pea breeding, growing and crossing our own peas, etc. I was reading books on dinosaurs from the elementary library (and their evolution into modern-day birds) when I was in 3th grade. If I hadn't been exposed to basic scientific concepts at that age, who knows if I would have chosen to pursue my current career.

Education and knowledge really truly do matter.

there is plenty of time and resources available to help with that understanding. If it must be included in elementary and high school it could be covered in one or 2 days. My point is there is no need to dwell on it. And those who wish to dwell on it are usually zealots in either religious areas wanting to teach creation as the only answer to origin or the Darwinian theory people usually want to present their belief as irrefutable, proven (the Earth is a sphere) science with no room for discussion IMHO. Most people have found a balance they are very comfortable with by the time they are in their 20's which brings me back to why is it necessary to teach in elementary or high school at all beyond mention?

So you're against having globes in classrooms more than one or 2 days?

Because evolution IS as solid as the earth being round.

Evolution happened.

Get over it.

because the bible doesn't mention any globe.

We should take those out. And also any reference to how old the earth is. And if teachers wear mixed fibers they should be stoned to death.

Okay. Just don't worry about it, right? :think:

which more time and resources are wasted than this one? I can't think of one. The problem is, like it or not your truth (or mine) isn't the same as other peoples truth on this issue. How about we concentrate on something we can all agree on like making sure our kids can add up the cost of their ala carte lunch in the cafeteria without having to remove their shoes?

That is so comfortable.

It's just that I was a teacher for many years, and I can't believe you said that.

there are many scientists of all faiths. All have come to their own conclusions and beliefs concerning the minutia of the reconciliation of their science and their faith. Few would be in absolute complete agreement in every aspect of this reconciliation. That is all I am saying. I live in Kansas where perhaps more resources (per capita) have been dumped into this stupid argument than any other state. If my kids were never taught evolution or creation in school it wouldn't be the only hole in their public educational career, most are more important and far less controversial than this one. Like being able to locate Europe on a map.

The people who want to tie this issue up in the courts on both sides are zealots, the rest of us would be happy if our kids could attend classes where most of the students can read at the level of the class they are in.

but somewhere else.

;)

That's why I'm against books in English class. Some people don't like books, and I wouldn't want a ruckus.

it's the words I don't like, so we'll just have to make them all blank.

Who the fuck cares whether we understand any scientific concepts?

I'd prefer a physician who doesn't know diddly about the human body or bacteria or viruses. There can't be any harm in that.

Do you know any Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu physicians or are they all atheists?

and I don't ask my physicians whether they engage in magical thinking. That has no place in a professional relationship.

I think we both know there are great Muslim, Hindu, Christian, and Jewish doctors who have all balanced their science and their faith probably in as many ways as there are physicians. In fact most hospitals in the US are affiliated with one faith or another, no?

or who rejects evolution...so I can steer clear of them.

You previously said, "I don't ask my physicians whether they engage in magical thinking. That has no place in a professional relationship.", now you are saying that you would avoid a physician who believes in some level of creationism? Would you refuse to see the best doctor in a given field based on their religious beliefs?

My sister is a severe asthmatic. From the time she was a toddler she would go into asthmatic seizures which would result in respiratory arrest at least 2 times per year. She would have to be respirated and because we lived in rural areas often air lifted to major hospitals for extended stays. My mother figured out one time that she had spent 3 1/2 years of her first 15 years in the hospital. When she was 20 she was attending nursing school when she had one of these seizures. A doctor at the nursing school had her transported to National Jewish Hospital in Denver, one of the leading respiratory hospitals in the nation. Her Dr. there was an observant, yamaka wearing, kosher eating Jew. She stayed at Nat'l Jewish under his care for 6 months. It is now 20 years later and she has not had a seizure since. The point is we are not Jewish, I don't give a rats ass what he believed. I don't believe his belief or non-belief in evolution would effect his ability to perform his job with skill. I certainly don't believe it is crucial or even important to teach elementary/high school kids creation or evolutionary theory, thats all.

precisely because it is inappropriate for them to do so, and most certainly if they espouse a rejection of sound science.

Even so, if they have made it through medical school, they have learned the science that you consider stupid, so I sincerely hope that you would not be able to find a creationist physician to show me. :scared:

I never said that evolution or creation either one was stupid. I said that wasting resources on this argument is stupid in light of all of the other far more glaring failures of our public education system. But yes I am sure anyone who has a PhD in medicine has learned about evolution and hopefully about various religious beliefs and customs too. After all the vast majority of the population of the US associate themselves with some form of religious faith and often that faith is all which is left when science is exhausted. I remember a physician in a major hospital praying with my family on Christmas Eve one year when my sis was brought in after an extended respiratory arrest, he said that was the only treatment he had left at that point...what do you do? You pray with your doctor thats what!

Those were your words.

You're just playing parsing games here. I have called you on your claim that teaching evolution is a stupid waste of resources and you want to pretend you're not saying that. (And then you repeat it.)

I'm done with this waste of time myself.

I wonder what percentage of questions on those exams they would answer wrong because of a belief instead of facts?

I couldn't resist

Well, I could ...but why?

It is just as well established as any other scientific fact.

We should not let children decide "based on their religious background." It's not the school's job to teach religion. It's the school's job to teach fact.

All I know is his Theory on evolution which has been vigorously studied and tested - hence why it is a respected Theory which is considered true. In science, an accepted Theory is a good thing, not a guess.

Darwinism sounds like he created some sort of political or religious movement, which I am pretty sure he did not. If we wish to have an intelligent conversation on this topic, we need to be able to communicate with the correct words not the words the ID crowd uses incorrectly or just makes up, such as "Darwinism."

I have only ever heard "Darwinism" used as a derogatory appellation for evolution by natural selection. What is Darwinism if it is not evolution?

like that word is some sort of evolution-disproving bloody shirt don't understand jack diddly shit about how science works, or what a scientific "theory" actually IS.

It's a theory! It's just a theory! See, it's just a theory!

:eyes:

Darwinism is ONE mechanism of how evolution occurs. (Natural Selection).
Other mechanisms include gene mutation and genetic drift.

Will check back tomorrow to see if they posted it.

Q. How many oil companies hire young-earth creationist geologists to help them find oil?

When money is at stake, science beats faith.

Any oil company that tries to rely on Genesis to guide drilling would be bankrupt very quickly.

I have however seen ribs turn into women on a daily basis.

In fact, the other night I was really lonely. I called up Oriental Express down the road and ordered a plate of ribs. I put them on my table and prayed for a while, and lo and behold before I knew it I had a room full of beautiful naked women! I spent the rest of the night involved in a wild mind blowing orgy. Long live Ruth Klingman!

In my lifetime, I've never seen a universe created. I've never seen a man created from dust or a woman created from a rib.

Florida is like a whole different planet. Someone was telling me about the very lax food safety standards for Florida restaurants compared to the rest of the country. And Florida ranks pretty low on educational standards.

I feel dumber for having even attempted an answer.

I'm a little under the weather right now, but everything looks depressingly hopeless. I hate the Floridian mentality. It's abusive and restrictive.

Today I only feel a little hopeless. At least the majority of the hundred or so there had some sense.

To think I grew up and did not pay attention until the Bushes came into power. Then they all came out of the woodwork, people I thought were sensible were doing odd things like having signs on their lawns supporting the war. Like telling me as a teacher to take cown my bulletin board for Halloween as it was evil.

...they twist it around until it sounds ridiculous.

We really have to quit being nice to these people. They'll never be convinced, so we have to just beat 'em over the head with their own stupid stick.

a fantastic Mike Gravel quote that I saw at the LiveScience website. Unfortunately, the article I copied it from seems to be gone.
I liked it so much, I made it my sig.

Ruth Klingman, 200 million years old, states that she's never seen evolution in action. "Of course, we didn't get microscopes 'til 1660 and I was frozen in a glacier for a couple hundred thousand years, but I'm sure I would have noticed evolution in action at some point."

Jeez.

:spray::rofl:

Um, dude!

-Hoot

and siblings, argued otherwise in a recent letter to the BOE. He suggested the board might violate the constitution's establishment clause if it did not include alternative theories."

And really, who would you trust more to offer a valid legal opinion than a moron like Pinellas County attorney David Gibbs III? Sheesh. This guy could maybe—maybe—handle a job bagging groceries at the local Piggly Wiggly. A legal genius he ain't.

Note to Mr. Gibbs: the "establishment clause" applies to religion. Get it? Religion. Evolution is not religion. It's fact, documented first-hand as observed in nature, and supported by mountains of evidence from the fossile record and from DNA. I guess you don't know that, though, because up 'til now they haven't taught it in Florida's incredibly freaking pathetic public schools. Jeebus.

:D

are based on religion, not science. There is no credible evidence for either of them, but there are heaps of it for evolution.

It's like bashing your head against a brick wall--it accomplishes nothing short of giving you a massive headache.

But something tells me she's not the type to need evidence for that story.

Jesusland, the rest of us heathens, and now Lakota country. People are declaring territory.

I'd yank him or her outta there in a second. Actually, I'd likely pull him or her out of there, if he were required to take a class that taught these so called "alternate theories". This isn't science. It's bullshit. It's a story. Teach it at Sunday school. Teach it at home school. Teach it after school. Teach it at Catholic school.

But don't fucking waste time teaching it in a public school. No wonder we're getting our asses handed to us by India, China, Korea, etc. in terms of science education. It makes it a hell of a lot easier to teach when you don't have to bite your tongue over every other word when explaining such a basic and fundamental part of biology.

Seriously. Could be a fun experiment. Maybe I should write to Michael Moore....

madfloridian

ID or "intelligent Design" are not science.. Have never been, would never been teched as such, and are at best religious quasi science for they who really believe in that type of science...

As A Christian I find this type of "sience" worrisome, because this is not science at all.. (ID) And this type of "science" ar not doing christianity no god. This type of "science" should never been taken as good science.. It is a FACT that Darwin had it right in many prospect, when it come to how animal have evolved from tiny things, to more complex animals.. Even I know that.. But then I have had just public school the whole way, no private school for me. So I guess I am a "victim" of Darwinism:P

But I do believe in christ... But I do understand that the world is much more complicated then they know for 2000 year ago..


And if this type of quasi science are coming into play in american school, US would loose their advance on the rest of the world.. The fact is that US are slipping down the lather from nr 1.. Soon even China and India would have more science teacher and more educated people to get things going...

I just don't have a hard time with Darwinism... It is telling the science of how man have become man... Nothing else..
Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

Your quote:

"And if this type of quasi science are coming into play in american school, US would loose their advance on the rest of the world.. The fact is that US are slipping down the lather from nr 1.. Soon even China and India would have more science teacher and more educated people to get things going..."

The quasi science was happening before we realized it. I grew up around it and did not recognize it for what it was.

madfloridian

And that is SAD, because before US had, and still have a populace who are well educated for the work ahead.. This type of "science" are just mumbojumbo, and no serious science of professional in the science sector Will name it as science.. No serious science professional would do that... And then we have that case as you pointed out in Florida.. Can it be that much stupidity in US today?. Or it is just that the media are covering the whole thing better than before?.. I am still amazing what are coming from US since GWB was taking the presidency. SO many things that US have become... Amazing, and scary because this is not coming from some hillbilly's but from people who should be educated enough to understand the difference between science, and private belief.. I do, and I am not the smartest man in the world... But I do read a lot:P

As some was pointing it out, when fascism are coming to US, it is covered in the american flag... And the same is the case when it come to this type of "science": They are never coming right out of the basket, but slowly coming into position where they can do damage.. This have been a long proses, where drip for drip the science have been questing, and where quasi science have been more powerfully day for day, month for month, year for year...

You know, in Germany before the war, many of the same proses was going into position, quasi-science where mad-men was given power, and money do "Prove" the german and the "arian races" as better than everyone else was good "latin" long before Hitler come into power - but after Hitler, the floodgate of quasi science was coming open, and many descent, good educated professionals, found them self out of jobs, because they have been hijacked by quasi science.. And many of them was then emigrating to the United States of America, both for protection, and for work.. And US was giving them exactly what they need and wanted.. Where have US nuclear program been, if it was not for european science?:. Where have US been today, as the sole super-power if it was not for the professionals they was given before the war, and after the war...?

Before we know it, american would emigrate to europe, maybe even to Norway to get work.. And then US may bleed dry, as the science professionals are going abroad to get work.. Because their work have been hijacked by extremist, quasi-science and rubbish...
And that will be a sad day for US... And maybee even for the rest of the world too,.. We need US as a place where sience have it place. We don't need US as a place where stupidity, and quasi-sience have coming to power...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Nathaniel+Abraham+biologist+woods+hole&btnG=Search

Nathaniel Abraham holds a Masters degree in Biology, and is a creationist. He was hired by Woods Hole to do some research. After he was hired, he revealed that he didn't believe in evolution, and he refused to do the parts of his job that involved evolution. They fired him, and now he's suing, claiming religious discrimination. I think a creationist biologist is an oxymoron, and the whole business stinks of a legal setup by the creationists. Abraham now teaches at Liberty University (the 'college' founded by Jerry Falwell) , where the creationist lie continues to be spread.

fiamma mama

Then it is maybe even more important to educate the next generation, when "serious" scientist who don't want to teach and who deny evolution... If US don't want to be in the top then they can give this "serious" scientist the stage, and let the rest of the world go by... And what then with the superpower of US?.. Its like deny physic, because it fail when it come to what the Bible says...

This men, and women who are educated, but deny something that we can se, and what we can smell, is no more than the western counterparts of Osama Bin Laden. They too dream of a "glorious past" where their kind of breed was the dominant force when it come to things.. Today they are not that...

Scientist who have poking into what ID are, have for the most part found no ground, what so ever to call it science, rather the opposite... It is part fiction, part made up, and can not be founded in normal science as the most scientists can testify to it... It is just mambo, and no god..

If the ID scientist want to teach what he want, why cannot he be a minister, or a priest then?.. Then he even can be a respectable man, who preach the gospel as he understand it.. And not try to be taken as a serious "scientist" when he is not...
He may even get some peace in his soul..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

Weeeee. This is fun!

Why this Californian spent a day in Door County last year is a long story involving incomprehensible airline pricing, but I can testify it does exist, and looks like a pretty place.

I find that I have a tendency to place more credence in things that happen in places I've been: I suspect the reasoning goes something like, well I know the place exists so the <insert news organization here> isn't making that part up, so they may not be making up the whole story. Thinking rationally, that makes no sense, but deep down I suspect our animal nature makes us want to cling to what we can experience for ourselves.

One problem people seem to have with evolution - and this may be why a lot of creationists reject it - is that it undermines their belief that humans are the pinnacle of creation. If this sort of stuff is going on all the time, what makes Man unique? After all, the lazy, good-for-nothing feline snoozing on my feet is just as much the product of billions of years of evolution as I am. As is the oxalis currently invading my yard, and the crows who drove away the mockingbirds and the micro-organisms that gave me the sniffles. Evolution's happening all around us all the time, like it or not.

should be taught right alongside the biblical myths as well. Along with exposure to every other religious philosophy so that students can be properly prepared to make appropriate faith decisions outside of their forced indoctrination by their parents.

The first recorded case of hyper-accelerated DE-evolution.

If I lived in Florida, I'd be planning my move out NOW.

...and stuffed into suits has worked that particular magic on *.

we HAVE beliefs and theories. This is my biggest beef, but apparently this concept is 'too deep' for some people to understand.
When someone says "I am a christian, athiest, pagan, philosopher, mormon, ect' they forget that they were born a human being first, then decided at some point, or chose to believe someone who told them, who and what they are.

Are beliefs and theories worth taking someone's life, or denying them human rights? If I call myself a brainwashed zombie who doesn't question anything but what is written in one book, apparently it depends on the book. If it is The Lord of the Flies, I need to be locked up. If it is one of the twenty or so bibles, I am blessed.

No one has taken on this kind of thinking at the root, not that undoing cult programming is easy, but really, these insane people are actually succeeding in suppressing free thought. I am totally amazed at their success rate.


I know I am farting in the wind when I speak in this way, so most of the time I don't bother. :rant:

eugenics that I invite participation in, madfloridian.

Here's a link to it.

"January 1, 1934: 'The Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring' took effect" (started 1-1-2008)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2570336

There is considerable noise these days about the relationship between religion and evolution, this latter including the age of the earth. Much of the problem is caused by irrational, dogmatic assertions on all sides - plus a faulty knowledge of the scriptures.

First, I do not believe any public school teacher in grades K through 12 anywhere in the United States, certainly not the South, will deliberately set out to destroy a child´s religious faith. Public school teachers will turn back flips to avoid offending children and their parents. One irate and articulate parent is all that is needed to cause years of problems.

Darwin himself did not see and specifically stated he didn´t intend his work to disprove the scriptures. His interest was in observing animal and plant evolution in response to changing circumstances. So far as I know, he wasn´t concerned with First Causes, only what he could observe. Plants and animals, including people, do change over centuries in response to various environmental situations. If you don´t believe it, go to a museum of historic costume and imagine yourself trying to get into some of those outfits apparently made for a tubercular anorexic. Or try to put your finger through the trigger guard of a firearm from the American Civil War or before. People have gotten bigger and fatter.

When this observable theory was first laid out, people disenchanted with the unreasonable rigors and prejudices of most religions looked to it as a way to debunk them. Some even descended to outright fraud, pretending to find fossil links showing fish changing into frogs, etc. There were a couple of well known attempts to link humans and apes. Unfortunately, while we are similar, we can´t find a true crossover.

One of the few pieces of good fortune I had attending David Lipscomb College, a Church of Christ school, was a quarter of biology under Dr. Russell Artist, an unconventional scholar to say the least. He was one of the volunteer preachers who went to Germany in the aftermath of WWII. Since he had left his doctoral diploma at home, he proceeded to get another one at a German university. Here he encountered and enthusiastically fought those who thought Darwin precluded God. Many scientists have theorized that the fish to frog, fly to wasp type transformations occurred during what is known geologically as the Pre-Cambrian period. Since this was a highly volcanic period, virtually no fossil remains exist. ¨Don´t try to fool me, young man; you haven´t got any Pre-Cambrian fossils and you know it!¨

The other ¨problem¨ with Darwin aside from the hysterical Man Didn´t Descend From Apes! is the age of the earth as proved by geology and related sciences. Neither Darwin nor God have anything to do with this confusion. This was caused by Bishop Ussher, an Irish Anglican of the early Seventeenth Century who wanted to prove Anglicans could do scholarly work as good as that of the Jesuits. So Ussher decided to determine the age of the earth. To do this, he amassed a large number of documents from many sources. One of his key dates was the Babylonian dating of the reign of King Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar, if you want to be accurate). Another was the Roman dating of the Fall of the Temple. It was quite good scholarship for the time, when science was just beginning and most people didn´t realize the significance of the differences among calendars.

Many people believe he did this work by using the ages of various people given by the Bible. These are people who have never read past Genesis. The last two people for whom ages were given were Joshua and Caleb, mentioned in the books of Exodus and Judges. After that, nada. In Kings and Chronicles, you get these irritating sentences ¨And all the works that King Soandso did, are they not written in the books of the Kings of Judah? And he died and King Whatsit his son reigned in his stead.¨ Great if you´re trying to put a date on something. It is notable that the New Testament indicates dates by giving the names of the Roman rulers in authority at the time.

Since Ussher´s work was printed in the Bible, many people began believing it was part of Holy Writ and Divinely Inspired - even people who believe an Anglican Bishop is burning in Hell. I myself have never seen Ussher´s tables (unless it´s that unreadable stuff in small print down the middle of the page in older editions). I doubt many of my generation have. Yet its gotten into people´s heads that it´s Divine Writ.

When William Jennings Bryan quipped that he was more interested in the Rock of Ages (another non-Biblical expression) than the age of rocks, he did not note that God himself seems tremendously uninterested in our knowing the age of rocks. He has let us learn about the solar system, the calendar, and basic physics all by ourselves. The Scripture contains no mention even of gravity. We use the 7 day week described in Genesis, but so did early pagan peoples who had never heard of the Hebrew scriptures.

A word on the practical side - I have mentioned the people disenchanted or hurt by misapplied religion who have embraced science as a substitute. These are often bitter folk eager to tear down something that has hurt them. The cause is also taken up by people who desire to control other people with ridicule or guilt trips. Some such folk may be found in colleges, and college students can become really intense on the matter one way or the other. When someone begins ¨How can you believe...¨ turn them off immediately. If you´re taking their class, write down what they say, spit it back out on the test, and go on with your life. DON´T ALLOW ANYONE TO PRESSURE YOU EMOTIONALLY INTO OR AWAY FROM ANYTHING.

Christians are taught to be able to give every man an answer for the faith that is in us, but this should be done within judicious limits. Realize that people asking may not really want to know; they merely want a tool to tear into and control YOU. Always study the most scholarly and reliable sources on every subject; you can find a great deal on the net.

Much of the fuss about Evolution and its evils is simply a smoke screen to keep us from acting in our own best interests.

Much of the impetus behind this movement to preserve creationism comes from a deeper motive.....control of the dialogue...and now control of the country.

Ohio and the launch of Dominionism

They must keep a religious view in the forefront to be dominant.

Many who believe creationism...that the earth is only a few thousand years old...are sincere. But many are just being used in a push by extremists to turn this country into a theocracy.

It took me a while to realize the hold religion had on Florida politics and everyday things here. I think making people aware is important.

I've got visual proof of what kind of a crazy monkey one man has become:



It's the school's job to teach fact.

It's the parents' job to teach faith.

Most importantly: Thanks for an excellent post and thread, madfloridian.

:rofl:

neanderthal.

and witness the majesty of the THEORY of gravity.

win the nomination or the general election? People like this will vote for him. Has Madame Klingman seen a distinguished, white-bearded older gentleman up in the clouds busily separating light from darkness?

They live like mindless animals who only care about their own selfish survival. No wonder the theory bothers them - they are less evolved.

DutchLiberal

Or maybe even in the 10th sentury.... On the other hand they have all the science the world need, on the other hand, they are totally stuck in some late middle age and don't see to be willing to understand that in the age of reason, ID are not truthfully sience... Its like the age of reason, never existed for some reason, for the more extreme groups in US..


Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language..

out the highest window I can find. Shouldn't be a problem. Much. "Silly" science, that Gravity stuff.

really gets me. Evolution doesn't make the claim that we have apes in our ancestry. What it DOES say, however, is that somewhere in the past humans and apes had a common ancestor. DNA evidence shows this to be the case.

Q3JR4.

:)