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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:05 AM
Original message
Education is Ignorance, By Noam Chomsky
"Mass education was designed to turn independent farmers into docile, passive tools of production. That was its primary purpose. And don't think people didn't know it. They knew it and they fought against it."

Education is Ignorance
By Noam Chomsky


Excerpted from Class Warfare, 1995, pp. 19-23, 27-31
01/04/08 "ICH"

....BARSAMIAN: ....You're very patient with people, particularly people who ask the most inane kinds of questions. Is this something you've cultivated?

CHOMSKY: First of all, I'm usually fuming inside, so what you see on the outside isn't necessarily what's inside. But as far as questions, the only thing I ever get irritated about is elite intellectuals, the stuff they do I do find irritating. I shouldn't. I should expect it. But I do find it irritating. But on the other hand, what you're describing as inane questions usually strike me as perfectly honest questions. People have no reason to believe anything other than what they're saying. If you think about where the questioner is coming from, what the person has been exposed to, that's a very rational and intelligent question. It may sound inane from some other point of view, but it's not at all inane from within the framework in which it's being raised. It's usually quite reasonable. So there's nothing to be irritated about.

You may be sorry about the conditions in which the questions arise. The thing to do is to try to help them get out of their intellectual confinement, which is not just accidental, as I mentioned. There are huge efforts that do go into making people, to borrow Adam Smith's phrase, "as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human being to be." A lot of the educational system is designed for that, if you think about it, it's designed for obedience and passivity. From childhood, a lot of it is designed to prevent people from being independent and creative. If you're independent-minded in school, you're probably going to get into trouble very early on. That's not the trait that's being preferred or cultivated. When people live through all this stuff, plus corporate propaganda, plus television, plus the press and the whole mass, the deluge of ideological distortion that goes on, they ask questions that from another point of view are completely reasonable....

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19001.htm
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for posting this.
As someone who has racked up multiple degrees and the debt that it causes, this is a great article to see.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The obvious stuff is so deeply ingrained within the fabric of the culture
That it's overlooked. Then again, I quit high school...
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
75. Link
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. I Get People Pissed Off At Me All The Time
When I diss the education industry.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. He's absolutely right
And here it is with all the gory details, if anyone is interested in a good read:

http://www.rit.edu/~cma8660/mirror/www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/

This book is incredibly eye-opening.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Thanky. Hadn't heard of this
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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. There is also one book written by a Department of Education member during Reagan's term

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf

Charlotte Iserbyt is the consummate whistleblower! Iserbyt served as Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement (OERI), U.S. Department of Education, during the first Reagan Administration,



I haven't read it, only heard an interview.
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. The Gatto book is essential reading.
And for that reason, it is never discussed.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. We certainly agree on that
Despite our differences in the other thread.

If more Americans were aware of this sort of information, change would grow from the bottom up.

That, of course, is why our whole culture insists that it not be looked at or taken seriously.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. Chomsky & Gatto caused the biggest transformations in my thinking.
For 20 years I wondered WHY did America ALWAYS support the most monstrous, anti-freedom dictators -- Pinochet, Duvalier, Marcos, Trujillo, etc.

Finally, I read Chomsky, and it was a completely new (albeit depressing) way of looking at the world.

Only recently did I stumble across Gatto, and it has been an equivalently dramatic transformation in how I look at the world.

Schools in America are essentially deterring democracy; in spite of well-meaning attempts by teachers to actually educate, mostly the schools are intended to mass-produce a moldable, obedient workforce.
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. I would then recommend Parenti.
That is if you have not already read his work.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. I read 'To Kill a Nation' and the Terrorism Trap.
Do you have a favorite by him, or one that you found particularly transforming?
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Democracy for the Few is great. Perhaps the best
in my opinion is "The Sword and the Dollar".

Further, his talks are widely available on the Bittorrent network. There is one floating around that is like 2gigs/ 35 talks.

I can send you a link if you like. PM me.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. It ain't the things you don't know that gits you, it's the things you know that ain't so. nt
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90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. a song
birth

school

work

death

I forget the artist, it was a metal song, always thought it hit the nail on the head for life in America.

-90% Jimmmy
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. The Godfathers
Original version said "I've kissed Margaret Thatcher's shoes."

They were dancey with crunchy guitars more than metal.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Well, since you were kind enough to mention it
The whole work culture in this country is a bastion of bullshit as well. Those interested can check out my essay on the subject, which has opened a few eyes in its own modest way:

http://naturyl.humanists.net/work.html

Warning: Do not read if you aren't prepared to think about whether you actually want to show up next Monday.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for posting this!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. Chomsky captures what was enormously uncomfortable for me in the academic "system."
My experience in obsessively pursuing my baccalaureate degree soured me on academia. I felt like a warped rough casting on the assembly line, barely (and with great pain) contorting myself to present convenient surfaces to be machined and honed to "specifications" while steadfastly slogging towards that piece of paper while compulsively sipping from the very rare and isolated springs that temporarily sated my curiosity along the way.

The "system" (and gaming it) was my nemesis. Working part-time and full-time jobs to feed the beast, attending a series of three "institutions of higher learning" (with the most divers and incompatible array of 'prerequisites' iimaginable), and chasing the calendar of orderly assimilation of the buffet of materials left me little time to sleep ... often only to have anxiety dreams. Nightmares.

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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
74. Dang, TN!
You sure do write purdy! :applause:
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
9. Compete Consume CONFORM Breed Be afraid
Chomsky is so right on the money.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. H.L. Mencken summed it up nicely.
"And what is a good citizen? Simply one who never says, does or thinks anything that is unusual. Schools are maintained in order to bring this uniformity up to the highest possible point. A school is a hopper into which children are heaved while they are still young and tender; therein they are pressed into certain standard shapes and covered from head to heels with official rubber-stamps." H.L. Mencken
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Herbet Marcuse, ONE-DIMENSIONAL MAN
Another essential:

ONE-DIMENSIONAL MAN. STUDIES IN THE IDEOLOGY OF ADVANCED INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY (1964)
http://igw.tuwien.ac.at/christian/marcuse/odm.html
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
15. This paragraph lays it out pretty well...
... and Chomsky reminds me - I haven't READ Adam Smith. But, current voices such as Thom Hartman, remind that I should...

The other part of the story is the development of corporations, which is an interesting story in itself. Adam Smith didn't say much about them, but he did criticize the early stages of them. Jefferson lived long enough to see the beginnings, and he was very strongly opposed to them. But the development of corporations really took place in the early twentieth century and very late in the nineteenth century. Originally, corporations existed as a public service. People would get together to build a bridge and they would be incorporated for that purpose by the state. They built the bridge and that's it. They were supposed to have a public interest function. Well into the 1870s, states were removing corporate charters. They were granted by the state. They didn't have any other authority. They were fictions. They were removing corporate charters because they weren't serving a public function. But then you get into the period of the trusts and various efforts to consolidate power that were beginning to be made in the late nineteenth century. It's interesting to look at the literature. The courts didn't really accept it. There were some hints about it. It wasn't until the early twentieth century that courts and lawyers designed a new socioeconomic system. It was never done by legislation. It was done mostly by courts and lawyers and the power they could exercise over individual states. New Jersey was the first state to offer corporations any right they wanted. Of course, all the capital in the country suddenly started to flow to New Jersey, for obvious reasons. Then the other states had to do the same thing just to defend themselves or be wiped out. It's kind of a small-scale globalization. Then the courts and the corporate lawyers came along and created a whole new body of doctrine which gave corporations authority and power that they never had before. If you look at the background of it, it's the same background that led to fascism and Bolshevism. A lot of it was supported by people called progressives, for these reasons: They said, individual rights are gone. We are in a period of corporatization of power, consolidation of power, centralization. That's supposed to be good if you're a progressive, like a Marxist-Leninist. Out of that same background came three major things: fascism, Bolshevism, and corporate tyranny. They all grew out of the same more or less Hegelian roots. It's fairly recent. We think of corporations as immutable, but they were designed. It was a conscious design which worked as Adam Smith said: the principal architects of policy consolidate state power and use it for their interests. It was certainly not popular will. It's basically court decisions and lawyers' decisions, which created a form of private tyranny which is now more massive in many ways than even state tyranny was. These are major parts of modern twentieth century history. The classical liberals would be horrified. They didn't even imagine this. But the smaller things that they saw, they were already horrified about. This would have totally scandalized Adam Smith or Jefferson or anyone like that....

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fenriswolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. I love noam chompsky
their is a phrase, don't know if i picked it up somewhere or made it up myself but it fits

"self education is self actualization"
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
20. Absolutely....You See it Politics "Be Passive. Be Nice to the Other Side"
"They'll come around to understanding your plight.... don't impeach. It makes you look irrational and angry."
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. True
The whole idea of being respective of those who oppress you because it's the polite thing to do...or it somehow makes you better than them...or that you'll be rewarded later.

When it is nothing more than your obedience that is demanded...your cheer-leading of flowery prose...without any real change involved.







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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. And It's Usually Used by Those who Pretend to Share Your Plight
very clever and effective.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. It's called "spectator democracy" i.e. phony democracy
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. phony, yes...I prefer calling it the illusion of democracy
instead of phony democracy

all the stage props are in place and people are given their roles

and within those roles the shared myth continues...and it's undeniably comforting....soothing...easier

it's when people question the myth...their role within that shared myth...that people begin to see just how big of an illusion it is...unless what they are sensing scares them into retreating back inside those roles

When phrases like "this is how it's always been" or "this is just how it is" and "because!"(I said so!) - or even "tradition" curl your nose like a bad smell, it's a good sign. Because then you have to ask yourself..."Says who?"









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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
60. That approach is usually sold by those in power
And/or those duped by them.

Always follow the money. The money will reveal everything.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. Yes...but then teachers have power...adults do
older kids do.....bigger kids do

the person with the gun does

religious leaders do

the boss does

power's a coin of many denominations










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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. And yet Chomsky is an intellectual elitist working for an elitist institution of mass education


He's so deep.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Beat me to it..
Sorry I believe higher education is a great resource for people. Being exposed to ideas and cultures you would NEVER see without the group aspect.

It is very easy to shit all over the "system" but much harder to propose a better solution.

Some of his ideas are great, some dog poo. Sorting out the bits and using them in a logical context is a skill honed with the help of some really good professors.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. He's certainly not taking an absolute position against all forms and approaches to education
To suggest he is seems to indicate a personal dissatisfaction for his views in general. And while many are quick to play the lack of "solutions" card as a means of smearing him, he is in fact, by example, encouraging others in this way simply by acknowledging the webs of deceit our culture is mired in. To change it requires step by step change from the bottom up, and this is indeed contrary to the encouraged mindset the prevailing ideologies promote. Hence many don't like his views because they take criticism of the whole as personal criticism ... which says a great deal more about one's personal beliefs, and how those came about, than it does about objective institutional analysis.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. That's the heart of dissent: he fiercely criticizes the "intellectual" classes for their betrayal
Yet works within that medium. He takes the same position re dissent against one's govt and its policies/actions.
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. Yeah, an elitist. Right.
Maybe you should consider listening to what he has to say, rather than shooting the messenger.

If you did, you would see that he has deep misgivings about MIT and his role there. But then, you knew that, right?

So have you revolutionized your area of expertise, or will you?
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Yes, I know he has misgivings, and yet he takes the paycheck from one of the biggest research tools


of the military-industrial complex even though he could probably get a job somewhere else.

He makes good coin from his speaking fees and book revenues. He doesn't need MIT or any other college if he really wanted to get away from mass education.

I suppose there is some benefit to being associated with an institution of mass education that he doesn't mention much.

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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #42
61. He has to eat
And there aren't too many other jobs he could do where he would have freedom to pursue his intellectual work.

He's using the existing system to support his efforts to build a better system. Nothing wrong with that.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. Sums up his semi-anarchistic approach too: support existing systems that DO help others
Even though it may not jive with the anarchist ideal 100%
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
25. George Carlin sums it all up nicely.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Chomsky and Carlin are right, but...
It doesn't mean education is totally worthless. The current educational system is better than nothing. Getting rid of it completely is not a sensible answer. But it does need major reforms, and people do need to understand the unattractive reasons it was created in the first place.

Education needs to be about learning how to think - and right now it isn't. It wasn't created for that purpose. Quite the opposite, in fact.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
84. god, thank you so much for that
a shot in the arm

i love george
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
27. That would more accurately be: "Education" is Ignorance. TRUE education is not.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
29. Excellent. drip. n/t
K&R
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
31. The truest intellectual is a young child. A toddler. He/she is fascinated
with everything and wants just to learn about it. No consideration of ambition or enrichment at all. A completely disinterested desire to learn.

Later in life, few will baulk at using their intellectual capabilities primarily for self-enrichment and self-advancement in society. It's what they are conditioned to do. Those who do break out of the mould are wont to have unusual aspects to their background, which make them question everything on a deeper level.

I don't know the truth of the matter, but I got the impression that Mike Tyson's rape conviction was, at least, a kind of set-up. I've only heard him speaking 2 or 3 times on the box, but he not only sounds extremely intelligent (I would be the last to suggest this as proof of innocence, though our society tends to equate it with virtue), but also potentially very wise. Of course, his particular background, even - arguably especially - after he became the world champion, was not propitious to the development of wisdom, of course, but imo, with a different background he could have been a university lecturer/professor. Would that have been desirable? Prima facie, presumably, yes, in comparison with his current plight, but I suspect he might have become too sensitive to a different, much deeper dimension to motivate himself sufficiently, after what he has been through.

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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #31
62. I think you might be exactly right about Mike Tyson. (n/t)
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
34. Another reason why we shouldn't have gone with the Dewey system.
We could've gone with Montessori, but we didn't. We went with a system designed to churn out cogs for the machine, as Dewey himself said. If you look at American education before the early 1900s, we did a lot better on educating critical thinkers but worse on educating everyone. In our desire to educate the masses, we went with a mechanistic approach instead of a free-thinking one. Gah.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
35. I think he's seriously overstating it, honestly.
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 12:11 PM by Marr
I'm a fan of Chomsky's writing, but I think he's going out on a limb here. Teachers certainly want an attentive classroom, but that's just a necessity if you're going to teach a crowd of kids.

Logic is still taught, and that certainly doesn't encourage people to be passive. It encourages an objective, pitiless appraisal of any situation. Higher math has nothing to do with teaching passivity either, it has to do with learning how to break complex problems down in solvable pieces. Science is valuable.

History is nearly worthless, as it's taught in our educational systems, but event there it's not all bad. I had more than one history teacher who began by reviewing the approved history found in the curriculum, then opened up discussion and tossed in historical narratives not covered in the text. Maybe my experience was unusual, but I had some teachers who really openly encouraged their students to be active, never passive, and to know who, where, and when they are.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. He's been publicly "overstating" this for three decades
The human systems within a society can be examined objectively, and can reveal a great deal more regarding the overarching systems of ideological control than what is necessarily perceived by the many who compose the system by participating in it...through routine inducement/encouragement of it which necessitates not thinking the 'wrong' thoughts and asking the 'wrong' questions.
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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
36. well if that is true then hillbillies must be loaded with geniuses. since they only get to the 4th
grade before they are old enough to quit. Chomsky is a bright bow with absolutely zero understanding of this own species. If HE doesn't like something, or something doesn't work fro him, then it is ipso facto bad for the whole human race. Yes, old-time education with rote memorization, penmanship, geography was boring to bright kids, but the goal was to educate the average kid! In Chomskys' tiny cranium sealed universe he seems to believe that the species are all clones of himself.

All in all, this latest Chomsky pronouncement from on high shows why along with great intelligence comes an increased percentage who are or become deranged.
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. I think you forgot the sarcasm smilie.
You cant possibly have read any Chomsky or listened to his talks and have that opinion.

Well, I suppose you could, but then you wouldnt be here- but rather at LGF or something.

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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. no sarcasm, I meant every word. He does you know, occasionally make errors in logic.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. "Latest pronouncement?" Are you serious? He was saying this back in the 60s too
And it was the correct view then also.
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personman Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #36
57. ...
"well if that is true then hillbillies must be loaded with geniuses."

If you aren't being deliberately obtuse, if you are interested in something besides erecting straw men and knocking them down, you might read the article and see what he is talking about.

"Chomsky is a bright bow with absolutely zero understanding of this own species.

Yeah and that Einstein guy didn't know shit about physics either...

"Chomsky is credited with the creation of the theory of generative grammar, considered to be one of the most significant contributions to the field of linguistics made in the 20th century. He also helped spark the cognitive revolution in psychology through his review of B. F. Skinner's Verbal Behavior, in which he challenged the behaviorist approach to the study of behavior and language dominant in the 1950s. His naturalistic approach to the study of language has affected the philosophy of language and mind."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky

Is the foot good then?
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
63. So "average" kids are capable of nothing?
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 08:12 AM by Naturyl
Yep, that's exactly the view taken by those who created the modern educational system, as Gatto's book reveals. Ordinary kids have no potnetial to be anything but worker drones, so just teach them obedience and get them out there turning screws, punching keys, and asking no questions.

This hurts kids of average intelligence by stripping them of so many possibilities, and it hurts kids of above-average intelligence by chewing them up and spitting them out altogether as "defective products" (in many cases). As such a "defective product" myself, I can say this with some confidence. The education industry's attempt to crush me into a conformist mold broke me in many ways, some of which I'm only beginning to recover from at age 32.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #63
68. Which is the corner stone of "fashionable consumption," including the college racket for many
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #68
77. Yeah, don't even get me started
The whole process of saddling young people with metric shitloads of debt so that they have to take any employment they can find and work their asses off... it's pretty obscene.
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nannah Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
37. as someone who spent time in the hall and saw the principle more often
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 12:31 PM by nannah
than most, i like thinking it was my independence and creativity rather than my big mouth; i was not an ideal student.

one thing that always puzzled me were the folks who talked about "giving the teacher the answers they wanted to hear" or "knowing what a teacher wanted and giving it to them". Focusing on the teacher and what she/he thought never really entered my mind as a strategy for learning. but then, as noted above, i was not a very good student in the k thru 12 system.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
65. One year, I had my own desk in the principal's office
I was badly behaved, mostly because I was being continually abused by my peers. Rather than acknowledge the abuse and take action against it, the teachers and authority figures preferred to blame me. I suppose it was easier for them that way, and I'm sure it made more sense from their short-sighted perspective. For no reason at all, the "bad kid" was getting himself into trouble. Just punish him - problem solved.

Except it wasn't solved, of course. Before it was over, I got a psychological disability out of the deal. Thanks, "educators."
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #65
78. I spent time in Catholic schools...
We moved a lot - my father was in the trucking business - and so on top of always being the 'new' kid, I was the new kid in small, ultra clique-ish Catholic schools ... and on top of that, I've been very indie-minded from a young age, and unlike many, have remained adamantly anti-authoritarian well into adulthood {a trait that led me to Chomsky's material}. I was very much the trouble maker, but not in the usual ways. I didn't bully other kids, I stood up to fuck wit teachers who favored cliques and rigged games - that's what routinely led me to principal office visits, parents being called, and so forth, often to no result as I couldn't be reprimanded for simply speaking my mind. But man, that level of insubordination really pisses some people off! {authoritarians}

Anyhow, after junior high age I attended a very large public school where I was able to "slip through the cracks" before attending a half-day school for "troubled teens." That was a joke, so I dropped out, and got my GED a few yrs later ... which incidentally never did me any good whatsoever re any Wage Slave job I've held.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. I mostly just refused to participate
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 09:17 AM by Naturyl
A lot of my office referrals were for refusing to do homework. From fifth grade on, I refused to do any homework whatsoever. They threatened to hold me back but could never do it due to the fact that I got high marks on every test despite never studying or doing classwork.

I also got a GED (scoring 342 out of a possible 350), and it has never done me the slightest bit of good. It did get me into college (with the help of a perfect score on the verbal section of the SAT). Naturally, I promptly quit college after one semester. I discovered, to my considerable disappointment, that it was no different from high school. The same nonsense was going on everywhere.

I mention the test scores and such not to brag, but simply to highlight how the current educational system has nothing to offer a considerable number of people with above-average intelligence. And yes, I was in the so-called "gifted" class for a while and it was no better. There was a more advanced curriculum, but it was underpinned by the same bullshit conformist dynamic that existed everywhere else.

Some might conclude that I'm just a freak and none of this is relevant to normal people. While there might be some truth to that, I think it's mostly a cop-out. One doesn't have be a particularly unusual person to have all sorts of potential that is undermined and stifled by an unimaginative system intended only to turn out obedient, unquestioning producers and consumers.

And beyond that, heaven only knows how many potential Mozarts, Einsteins, and Chomskys we are losing to mental health clinics, alcoholism, the homeless shelters, and other places people end up when the system chews their psychology up and spits it out. No, I'm not implying that I'm one of them. But surely they do exist - and that's a huge waste.
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
41. First
1. Learn the principle
2. Abide by the principle
3. Dissolve the principle

-Bruce Lee (Paraphrased)
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
44. I have read that before...
But I stayed at Holiday Inn last night... :-)
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
46. oh good, this again.
Wonder when Noam last set foot in a public classroom. I'd kill or die for an independent-minded student.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Yes, his point exactly. all he's saying is the education system is part of the indoctrination system
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. no.
To whatever extent the "education system" (a misnomer if I ever heard one) contributes to the "indoctrination system", it's a small part of an entire society geared toward consumerism and conformity. It's not the schools' fault - we're just trying to teach kids to read.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Kindergarten, then 12 yrs, then college. A "small" part? Me thinks the "we" you represent is biased
I am a parent with a young daughter, and luckily she has had excellent teachers thus far that my wife and I have been able to find common ground with. That said however, I've not spoken with one of them, or other administrators, who can give me an answer as to why young children are instructed to recite a "pledge of allegiance" when they don't understand the words, their meanings, or the overall concept. I call it indoctrination. And don't even get me going on "sports" in schools...
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #58
80. Part of the purpose of the educational system in any state is indoctrination.

Read any college Sociology 101 textbook.

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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #46
67. That's precisely his point (and Gatto's as well).
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 08:08 AM by Naturyl
There is a *reason* students are not independent-minded. They don't start out apathetic and mindless, they are *made* that way by the nature of our educational system.

If you're a teacher, you have my sympathies. Teaching is a noble profession which many good people go into for all the right reasons. But as you have apparently realized, you're going to be handed kids who have absolutely no desire to learn or think for themselves - and people like Chomsky and Gatto are trying to explain how that happens.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
49. Proud to say I got in trouble early on in school!
:P

:kick: & Recommended
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
54. Chomsky is like Illich
:)
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. What a great thread
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 10:05 PM by Orwellian_Ghost
Chomsky, Parenti, Gatto and now Illich.

I didn't know there were folk still around who remembered this great man.

You should start a thread about him to introduce his ideas to folks. Let me know if you do.

K&R
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. You probably know more about him than I do.
I kind of discovered his writing by accident when I came across his speech about the Peace Corps. It made me think. A lot. I had never heard of him before. Looked him up on wikipedia, where they briefly described some of his theories on education. So I decided to try to find more of his writing about unschooling, which seemed to fit in with the whole idea of Free Schools, which I had read about before. Sounded like a good idea.

Then I debated for several weeks whether or not I should start a thread asking DUers about their opinions on his Peace Corps speech. I know there are some DUers who are anarchists, and some DUers who have served in the Peace Corps and think it's a wonderful idea, so I thought it might turn into a flamewar. I mean, there have been flamewars on this website about *pet food*.

I finally decided to post it anyway. I worded it in the most non-offensive way I could. I asked whether the idea that volunteers would be paternalistic was any more or less true now than it had been in 1968. I asked whether there was any way an American citizen volunteering in a 3rd world country could avoid being a "vacationing salesman". I hoped it wouldn't turn into a flamewar. I posted it.

One person responded.
:rofl:
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #56
72. Aww... Here's a response.
Yes, it would be paternalistic. No avoiding that. It's just the nature of the thing. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it should be ruled out as a worthwhile thing to do. People need food, clothing, shelter, and basic skills. If the only way they can get them is to endure the inherently condescending process of having them bestowed from "on high" with scraps from the table of America Inc, then that's the way it's gotta be. It's still better than nothing.
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
83. Okay.
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 07:07 PM by otherlander
That's honest. Would you say that any of the same criticisms apply to Red Cross volunteers, for example, since the Red Cross is an international organization rather than an American one, and helps people in both first-world and third-world countries?
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. Don't forget Herbert Marcuse. I sourced him earlier w/link
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
69. Chomsky is right but he does not go far enough.
"Indoctrination" begins at birth. :D


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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. LOL...like Carlin saying your birth certificate is proof of guilt
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Thanks for this thread.
I really dig Carlin, Chomsky, and linguistics in general. :)


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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. Absolutely right, of course.
Indoctrination is simply a fact of life.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
76. Brief, informative overview of Chomsky's views/video
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
81. quite the salient point. far too often we forget we are within 'the system'.
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 09:47 AM by NuttyFluffers
and it's notable how he gets most upset with the intelligentsia for asking inane questions. of all people who should be undoing their environmental conditioning and asking the deeper questions it should be those who are essentially paid to do so, let alone have the money, space, and time. but far too often we cannot see the cage we're in, let alone the forest for the trees.

that said, having a grueling school experience, i'm rather the odd one out here. i was always a model and stellar student. almost never got in trouble, excelled in just about every subject, retained interest in nearly everything, and still found time to educate myself with additional reading. but i can't be that odd out because i have various members of my family, even younger members, who are just as passionate and curious about education and the world around them. unless my family, and some friends, are exceedingly rare there mut be another culprit.

what i think is perhaps the deepest problem is the level of overall conditioning, from cradle to grave. Swamp Rat touched upon it and i think it needs further discussion. we are conditioned from birth about what is acceptable to be "interesting." everything is divided up into race, class, gender groups of "interesting" as well, to further complicate things. and then we find broader conditioning reinforced by mass culture and mass media, to settle atop the home and local community conditioning.

what i have found that tends to free most people up is inviting them a space to ask questions, and to find the passion within themselves to explore such questions. to be humble enough to be curious about the world, and to hold enough awe and reverence to be passionate about the answers. i think so much of that is lost in a society where arrogance is rewarded, nothing is believed to hold any real mystery (it's either 'solved' or 'non-existent'), and everything boils down into a facilitator to acquire the next temporary stimulation. it invites the tyranny of the self-absorbed and self-satisfied. art, science, humanity, thought, etc. becomes a "stim" or a facilitator to the next "stim;" from the view of pop culture it's amazing we haven't devolved into a re-enactment of 'The Marching Morons' (or 'Idiocracy' for your modern tastes) already.

but it does look like there's a quiet revolution in the soil...
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Every couple of decades, there's a "quiet revolution" which prevent the
loud and bloody type.

There's no escaping being part of the system of exploitation we live in, but there are choices about what we do within it. You can choose to be Ghandi or Hitler, Martin Luther King or Bull Conner, Albert Einstein or Joseph Teller. It's our responsibility to educate ourselves what those choices are.

It helps if you have great teachers like Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky, as did I.
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