THIS should energize the illegal immigration debate...

Have you heard of "The Chandler Rapist" in Chandler, AZ? This guy has been praying on 11- to 13-year old girls early in the morning, after single parents have left for work. He's raped at least five so far, and yesterday they caught the man they say is linked by DNA evidence to the crimes.

From the Arizona Republic:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0112rapist-ON.html


Chandler Rapist in custody, police say
He has been deported twice

Sarah Muench and Lynh Bui
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 12, 2008 07:30 PM
Police have arrested a man they believe has been stalking and raping young girls in Chandler for nearly two years.

On Saturday officials identified Santana Batiz Aceves, 39, as the person they believe to be the Chandler Rapist, connecting him to the string of crimes with DNA evidence.

Police originally arrested him Friday morning on suspicion of identity theft.

Evidence led them to believe he could be a Chandler Rapist suspect. They also said that Aceves, a Mexican national, is in the country illegally and he had been deported twice in California related to drug charges.
-----------

Aside from the obvious parodies of the "They're just here to make a better life," there is the fact that if we had better border security, this guy would not have made it into the country illegally at least three times.

Certainly not a promising development for anyone who supports a soft position on illegal immigration.

LOU? IS THAT YOU?!

Immigrants are many more times the victims than the perpetrators of crime. But, go ahead and dehumanize these workers if it ups your pleasure!


Immigrants came to Ohio to support families
By Jeremy Schwartz

Cox News Service

Friday, January 11, 2008

EL ZACATON — The house was almost finished. Bit by bit, 20-year-old Conrado Guardado sent money back from Ohio to this tiny town in the desert highlands of northern Mexico.

Now that he is dead, his mother stands on the dirt floor of the unfinished kitchen and wonders what will become of her family.

"I still keep thinking he's going to come back," Guillermina Guardado Davila says. "I know it's impossible, but when I walk in the street I turn around hoping it's him. He was my only son and now I'm left with nothing."

Last month, four relatives from this village, which depends almost entirely on the money its sons and husbands send back from the United States, were brutally murdered in a sparse Sharonville apartment, just over the border from Butler County. They all worked in Mason.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/01/11/hjn011208mexicaninside.html

if we didn't have these "illegals" here.

... I'm pointing out that a criminal who was deported twice was able to easily enter the US again.

I also said that this would energize the immigration debate, and it certainly seems to have done that; it's headline news in every Arizona paper today.

rate of criminality.

Shame on you.

... point out that if we had a more secure border, there might be five pre-teenage girls in my community who did not have their lives forever changed by this man.

This guy should not have been here. Three times he entered the US illegally. The first two he was "only" deported for drug crimes. The last time, he raped five 11-14 year-old girls. To me, his presence here is inexcusable.

While my own suggestion would be to allow a lot more guest workers as well as permanent immigrants, I don't see how anyone can justify simply leaving the border open for anyone who wants to come in. I've traveled to nearly 30 countries; none of them had an open-border policy like we do; what is so wrong about us securing our borders, as well?

People like the rapist in your OP don't follow the law. That's why we call them criminals. The issue isn't immigration, it's rape. Rapists should never be anywhere.

... I agree with that, and my personal stance is that we should have a reasonably secure border so that criminals can't simply stroll in uninvited.

My main issue here is the fact that the rapist was able to enter the country for the third time after being deported twice for crimes in the past.

Whether or not we agree on immigration is probably a topic for another thread, but I don't see how one can argue against trying to keep criminals out of the country.

than to commit a crime. They have virtually no access to law enforcement.

The Myth of Immigrant Criminality

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/special_report/sr_022107.pdf

What I object to is not your concern about criminality but your using this rapist as some kind of representative for a whole group of people. Maybe that would be clearer if I said, who wants to come and work in a country full of genocidal, warmongering slavers.

and keep illegals out. I don't see any downsides to doing so. People like this criminal, who had already been deported twice for drug crimes, would not have access to our country. People who are interested in coming to work and improve their lives would have access.

Do you disagree?

(BTW, I don't believe I've used him to represent any group, other than criminals who would not be allowed access to the US, no matter how many guest workers or new immigrants we let in.)

You say you want to keep criminals out, then you conflate criminals with "illegals".

You are talking about working people.

No one favors illegal immigration, including people forced to come here without papers by your government's policy and Bush helping the Mexican oligarchy rig the election down there against the progressive candidate.

Then people like this criminal can be kept out.

You're really trying to lump me into the camp of saying all illegals are criminals / bad for America / worthess "brown people" / some other sterotype, and I have not done that in this discussion; those are not my beliefs.

It is possible to believe in monitoring who enters the country without doing so for racist or bigoted reasons.

to revitalize the immigration discussion.

Maybe you really are unaware of how one sided that is or how common this tactic is among hate groups.

... I didn't post the story to revitalize the immigration issue, although I (correctly) pointed out that it would do exactly that. It is still front-page news in all of the Arizona papers.

I guess for me, the border security and immigration issues are separate. I have no problem with the US allowing just as many immigrants as we have now, or more. We obviously have room and work for them, and this country thrives on immigration.

I do have a problem with an open border that lets people like this guy come across at will. I can't see any viable reason or justification for that.

There is no such thing as a "secure border"...

It's the bullshit of ronny ray-gun's "Star Wars" program coupled with USAmerikan racism and xenophobia and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Silly, meaningless, anecdotal "examples" like this can be found and conflated to gin up hatred and fear against ANY ethnic or national or <fill in your favorite meaningless label here> group.

You do yourself and us a disservice by promulgating this right-wing bullshit here...

There are ONLY Citizens of Mother Earth.

To deny that fact is to support the bastards who are ruining Mother Earth, who are in the process of denying Mother Earth as a safe haven for mammalian life.

Quit it! :puke:

Take your pick of any country on mother earth, with governments from the far right to the far left. The only ones I can think of who will welcome ANYONE with open arms are the same ones who won't let their own citizens leave of their own free will. (They like to trumpet a victory and say, "See? People do want to live here!")

Other than those, they all have borders, and enforce them.

:evilgrin:

(TG for dogs!)

It was 6:20 am when I typed that. Can't I get a freebie around here? :)

:hi:

...build a 20 foot high concrete fence along the entire border...increase security and be done with it.

Fine the people who hire them. That's the only way to stop illegal immigration.

:)

:) Where there's a will, there's a way.:)

...filled with Sulfuric Acid and teeming with Alligators....(wearing rubber suits)

the Sulfuric Acid...then they would just kill the alligators and swim across the moat.:7

It would be a lot Cheaper. :)

I do like your thought on that.:evilgrin:

Just jokin'!

You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads! Would that be too much to ask for?

my solution

Fine employers a years pay for the illegal. Give it to said illegal and send them home. Not just across the border. Businesses will think twice about hiring them when they could report themselves, cash-in, and go home with a nice nest egg.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

... thanks for putting so much thought into that one.

Fact: Most US winter lettuce is grown in Arizona.
Fact: Arizona now has a law on the books to suspend or revoke the business license of any company who knowingly hires anyone in the country illegally. Try a different vegetable in your next argument.


This story illustrates that CRIMINALS have easy, repeated (and illegal) access to the US. Even if we opened the floodgates of immigration, we still would not let criminals into the country, and this guy would not have raped five young girls in my community.


I see a lot of sympathy for the illegal here, but no one cares much about the girls or their families. Funny how that works...

Since I don't even believe in countries. I am a citizen of the world. Every country has horrible criminals.

from somewhere-

I can't understand the concept that the US could be a "gated community"

Have you seen "Children of Men?"-

We did recently- the commentary afterwards was really thought provoking.

:peace:

IF there was one.

Nice try but no cigar. Unless of course you can prove that only undocumented immigrants are rapists OR that all racists are undocumented immigrants.

Rape is bad, period. There is not much room for a "gray area" on that one, unlike immigration.

I don't agree with your premise. I don't have to prove that only illegal aliens are rapists, or that all rapists are illegal.

All I had to prove was that this particular rapist was a criminal who had been deported twice. That means that he was able to enter the country illegally at least three times. There is no way that should happened.

Regardless of how many new immigrants, or temporary workers, or whoever else we allow here, there are people we don't want here. Right now, there is no way to keep those people out.

I am all for expansion of immigration, and would be happy to support an act that allows more legal immigration. I will never support an open border that allows anyone - including criminals like Santana Batiz Aceves - to enter the US at will.

"That means that he was able to enter the country illegally at least three times. There is no way that should happened."

What percentage of "illegal" entry is too much?

How much will it cost?

Who will pay for it?

You do realize that there are many Native Americans who were born and live near that bogus artificial "border" of the U.S. but who are indigenous to America, have no ID, and cross that imaginary meaningless line repeatedly, don't you? What about them?

You do realize that the state we live in, Arizona, was recently part of Mexico until one of the numerous "preemptive" USAmerikan invasions and occupations stole Mexico from the Mexican People, right?

You realize that USAmerikan policies helped ruin the economy of Mexico and are driving the most proactive, ambitious and hard working of the Mexican People to cross the border to the country where their economy went to get a little of it back, don't you?

If our absurd immigration policies didn't force people to sneak their way into the country undetected, we might be able to monitor more properly the people entering and leaving our country, because they wouldn't feel the need to risk being undocumented in the first place. Maybe this would have helped us prevent a criminal from entering the country and committing this atrocious crime.

You mean they were all forced here against their will? This is terrible there ought to be a law. The only reason they come here is for the money, cut off the money and they will go home. Dishwashers will not make 35$ an hour but money will be invested in machinery to make a worker more productive. It's called capitalism. The dishwasher will make more money because he is more productive. It's hard to have capitalism when more labor walks across the border. Workers wages suffer.

in many cases. Regardless of whatever irrelevant rambling you throw at me.

:sarcasm:

capitalism is the bullshit myth of the 20th and early 21st Centuries and must die or all mammalian life on Earth will die.

If we'd have invaded Mexico instead of Iraq and fixed the fucked up corrupt kleptocracy that is it's .gov then we wouldn't have the illegal immigration problem we have now. Lets face facts the people are coming here because they can't make it in there home countries. Mexico is very rich in natural resources but it's being robbed blind by the ruling class.

when they need to steal elections from the progressives.

Go, team!

Doesn't matter what example you were to use.

Hell, there are people who don't even want to call them illegal immigrants but rather something like 'undocumented workers'. They are suspicious, and rightly so, of any one spouting anything remotely anti-immigrant. They are aware of the history of this nation and its tendency to blame whatever the current ills are on immigrants.

I think this reflexive defensiveness has swung too far in the other direction, to the point where all common sense has evaporated. Try to walk into any other nation and demand they speak your language. Try to walk into either of our neighboring countries undocumented and see how long you last-they will kick your ass out, and rightly so. This isn't the 1800's where there is a vast need for bodies to 'tame' the country. We're full up, and there are people here who can use the work, thank you very much.

Unless you're indigenous, you're probably descended from an "illegal" at some point...

However, I would settle for strictly enforced severe penalties and fines for employers employing illegals. Once that happens, word goes back to their home to stop coming, because work has dried up. Then, since they can no longer work here, they go home on there own at no cost to the taxpayer.

Democratic Party... You hurt American Workers by representing illegal immigrants, rather than insisting that the alleged "free market" actually work for the American Worker. Yet the Democratic Party cannot figure out why so many people vote against their best interests, but Democrats are suppose to be so much more intelligent.

Most of the anti-immigrant racist pricks I know would do the same thing.

Don

... what do us pro-immigrant / anti-illegal pricks do when we talk about this story? :)

So if you oppose illegal immigration, vote Democratic.

or Mexico, for that matter? More? Less? Should we be banned from entry?

Illegal entry, that is. Go ahead and enter Mexico or Thailand without doing so legally, and see where it gets you. I've been to both of those countries, and neither of them takes a very light view of illegal immigration.

Not a very strong argument there....

I really think THIS illegal immigrant, who was already a criminal and therefore could not have entered the country legally, should not have had the opportunity to stroll across our open border and rape five girls in Chandler, Arizona. That is my thought on this matter.

You?

I just don't like it when people conflate crime and the border issue--you know, some undocumented Mexican gets drunk and runs someone over, and the O'Reillys and Dobbses out there make it an immigration issue. I admit, I'm probably preconditioned to react in the way I did by those pundits, and shouldn't have assumed that's where you were going.

I still think the simplest way to stem the tide of illegal immigration would be to punish companies that hire them.

I agree somewhat with your idea of punishing the companies (actually, I agree completely, but I don't think that's all we should do).

In Arizona, we've just passed a law to do that. Get caught knowingly hiring an illegal, license suspended for 10 days. Do it again, license revoked.

I also think we should increase legal immigration and guest worker programs to support the labor that we obviously use.

Finally, I think we should keep a close enough eye on the border that criminals like this guy cannot sneak in three times.

Do all three of those things, and I believe the problem would basically disappear.

I feel they institutionalize a form of second-class citizenship. They tell people "sure, you can clean our toilets, but you're not good enough to be one of us." I'd rather see more fully legal immigrants, getting paid at least minimum wage.

There are many people, including current legal and illegal immigrants who come here intending to stay long enough to make the money they want, and then go back home.

There is no reason to subject people like that to the process and waiting involved with immigrating, when all they want to do is come and work for a season or a period of time.

Guest worker programs fulfill a valid need.

I don't want to establish a legal way for employers to skirt the established labor laws of this nation.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

They deserve justice. The perp deserves life w/o parole as a habitual offender. I doubt he just started raping girls when he arrived in the US. He probably left plenty of victims behind in Mexico. He's a sick puppy. Period.

Simply the fact that a twice-deported criminal who is illegally in the country for the third time is the person suspected of these horrible crimes is what I believed would inflame the debate.

While I am completely against illegal immigration, I am in support of vastly increasing the number of legal immigrants and guest workers we invite into the country. It's obvious we need the labor; I just don't see where having an open border is a better solution than legalizing the immigration we need.

Bullshit.

You post one anecdotal incident guaranteed to charge the emotions of most USAmerikans against the group you're trying to demonize and you expect us to believe that "I didn't mean that I intended to inflame"...

Yeah, right...

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

Yes, I did intend to start discussion here, but my point was that a story like that would energize (or inflame) the debate on a national level.

The only group I'm demonizing here are criminals who we would not let in if they had to come in through a border crossing. (You know - the same way you or I would enter any country we visited.)

Tell George W. Bush to stay in is own goddamn country. Next time we see him over here, we'll sue your ass for exporting illegal criminals!

(and no more european holidays for Sub-prime CEO's neither)

All I intended with my original post was to point out that the arrest of an illegal immigrant for these crimes would energize (or inflame) the immigration debate. I did not state any of my own beliefs in the OP, although there has been some good discussion in the followups.

Anyway, I predicted that this would energize the immigration debate. Now, from today's Arizona Republic:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0114rapes-immigration0114.html

Arrest in Chandler Rapist case may fuel debate
Experts: Man's immigration status to inflame closed-border stance

Yvonne Wingett
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 14, 2008 12:00 AM
As Chandler residents regroup following a man's arrest in the rapes that terrorized the city for 18 months, immigration advocates are bracing for the angry tide over illegal immigration to wash over the Valley again.

---

You heard it here first. :)

the "Arizona Republic" to dictate how you should feel on the immigration issue, eh?

Are you for the "angry tide over illegal immigration to wash over the Valley again" or are you against the "angry tide over illegal immigration to wash over the Valley again"?

I suspect I know the answer to that one.

The MSM has got you brainwashed into thinking that your brothers and sisters who enter this country without "proper documentation" in order to escape the devastated economy of their home country, to support themselves and their families (they send over $20 billion per year home to help their own people) are your enemy when to see your REAL enemy you only have to visit the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal.

Quit buying into their divide and conquer bullshit and get a grip on the reality of the corporate capitalist masters who are REALLY ripping you off.

I have no doubts that there are many, many people who feel that the imaginary red and blue lines on a map are more important than humanity. I have no doubts you're probably one of those people.

Aside from the parodies that were he not here he wouldn't have raped an American woman (who are far more important than brown women :sarcasm: ), the fact is everyone is human and the question we are forced to ask ourselves is this...

"Why do I think those imaginary red and black lines on a piece of paper are more important than actual people?"

Certainly not a promising question for anyone who claims that all men are created equal...

The cheap labor Democrats sound a lot like anti-abolitionists to me.

The green pieces of paper are the fundamental reason for the corporations. The imaginary red and black lines are the fundamental reason for the sub literate high school drop outs.

If it were only money, I think I could swallow that a little easier-- I can (guiltily) empathize with greed a little more than xenophobia.

And both illustrate one part racism, three parts xenophobia and four parts ignorance (Mix, shake well, and pour yourself a glass of Rush Limabugh...)

While I am for allowing more realistic numbers of immigrants, I don't think you'll be able to convince me that we should just "open the door" to everyone who wants to come in.

This guy committed crimes and was deported twice. Allowing him to freely enter the US again has nothing to do with humanity; it has plenty to do with reality.

"So for the sake of humanity, it's ok to allow criminals easy access?"

Did I say that? If so, please point it out to me...

Sorry, pal. It won't wash. Immigrants neither invented nor perfected rape-- men did that. So let's just send all males out of the country, right? Sheesh.

Humanity is the basis of reality, regardless of what Rush Limbuagh says...

... the red and blue lines on a map are more important that humanity (with sarcasm).

I understood your post to mean that if humans wish to move about, they should be free to do so without regard to those red and blue lines. I don't think there are many (if any) countries on the planet that agree with those sentiments, but that's beside the point.

I think any community that works to improve its standard of living will take steps to keep certain elements out. A twice-convicted drug dealer who has sneaked in three times would probably be one of those elements.

How does believing this make a person a racist or a xenophobe? I date people of other races, I've lived in other countries, I have relatives in the US who are citizens of other countries. Please don't lump me into some handy "racist" category just because I believe people should enter the country legally.

I think that, as a country, we can do a lot meet the demands for immigration and workers, and it is up to us to work toward that. I don't believe that is an excuse for others enter illegally.

(PS - I haven't listened to Rush since I used to visit my grandparents in the early 90's. I try to find objective sources of information.) :)

No. Not with sarcasm-- it's a paraphrase of the introduction to Victor Hugo's,Les Miserable. So unless he said it with sarcasm, I didn't either. One may infer all he wants without getting any closer to the meaning if his mind is already predisposed for it.

And yes-- (with apologies if necessary). I do tend to view as racist anyone who wants to send my girlfriend back to her country of origin. One can call her an "illegal immigrant", but that's not who she is-- that's only what some people need her to be to allow an easier justification of their positions.

Now, if rape didn't occur except from immigrants, I might think you have a point-- but were the rapist not in this country, he would have raped other women in another country, and I simply don't see how that's any better.

Yep.

Uh huh.

Enjoy your stay.

What the bloody hell does this story have to do with immigration?

How are U.S. girls any different than Mexican girls? How could it matter which side of the border a rapist was on when he was caught? What matters is that rapists are caught and brought to justice.

The stink of U.S. racism permeates all of these so-called "debates." Fanning the flames of racism and xenophobia has always been a most loathsome tool of the U.S. political machine.

True, this man would be a criminal anywhere he went. No, I don't believe any woman's right not to be raped is worth more or less than any other woman's right.

Does that mean we simply allow him in, because American women don't have any more right to safety than Mexican women? What about other criminals? Do you disagree with immigration policies that deny visas or green cards to criminals? This man obviously would not have qualified for one, had he tried to enter legally (due to his past convictions).

Maybe I'm too biased because this happened in my neighborhood, but I can't see a valid reason for him being in the country.

How are the two issues related? A rapist is a rapist wherever he happens to be.

What if a U.S. citizen rapist from Texas is caught in California? Especially if "there is no valid reason for him to be in" California?

Should we in California be especially wary of Texans?

Personally I am wary of U.S. citizens. There are too many racists, misogynists, homophobes, bad drivers and irresponsible gun owners on our streets.

... to get the point across.


People of ALL nationalities commit sex crimes. You're slandering millions of people by associating them with a small number of violent, depraved individuals. Seizing on the Chandler case to inflame public sentiment against illegal aliens in general is opportunistic and wrong.

My intention was not to impugn illegal aliens, but to impugn the lack of security that lets them in.

I believe we should allow enough immigration to meet the demands, and require people to enter the country legally. If we were doing so, many of the criminals who cross the border at will would no longer be able to do so.

I have a relative who's an illegal immigrant. I don't want to see her go away!

??????


Why do I even bother looking at this stupid board anymore? :crazy:


DU has become meaningless now that the corporate democrats are going to be in power again...

i mean seriously i dont even know if this thread is a joke.

There is no such thing as a "secure border"...

It's the bullshit concepts of ronny ray-gun's "Star Wars" program coupled with USAmerikan racism and xenophobia and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Silly, meaningless, anecdotal "examples" like this can be found and conflated to gin up hatred and fear against ANY ethnic or national or <fill in your favorite meaningless label here> group.

You do yourself and us a disservice by promulgating this right-wing bullshit here...

There are ONLY Citizens of Mother Earth.

To deny that fact is to support the bastards who are ruining Mother Earth, who are in the process of denying Mother Earth as a safe haven for mammalian life.

Quit it! :puke:

rapists with Spanish names are illegal immigrants or that all illegal immigrants are rapists. Statistically, this probably would not be true if you did a study of all criminals convicted of rape. So far the accused has not been tried and proven to be a rapist. This is more racial baiting. Why put this up on DU? It's freeper stuff.

as there are tons of US citizens who rape children and tons of immigrants who are here illegally who don't rape children.

One person is irrelevant to the issue as a whole.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

The border is leaky, for sure, but it seems that releasing a known criminal twice was a fairly retarded move.