"I lost everything I worked for all my life." This is THE issue, who will help?

Blue-Collar Jobs Disappear, Taking Families’ Way of Life Along
By ERIK ECKHOLM
Published: January 16, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/16/us/16ohio.html?em&ex=1200632400&en=a0879e8624a49ac2&ei=5087%0A

JACKSON, Ohio — After 30 years at a factory making truck parts, Jeffrey Evans was earning $14.55 an hour in what he called “one of the better-paying jobs in the area.”

Wearing a Harley-Davidson cap, a bittersweet reminder of crushed dreams, he recently described how astonished and betrayed he felt when the plant was shut down in August after a labor dispute. Despite sporadic construction work, Mr. Evans has seen his income reduced by half.

<<SNIP>>

Middle-aged men moving in with parents, wives taking two jobs, veteran workers taking overnight shifts at half their former pay, families moving West — these are signs of the turmoil and stresses emerging in the little towns and backwoods mobile homes of southeast Ohio, where dozens of factories and several coal mines have closed over the last decade, and small businesses are giving way to big-box retailers and fast-food outlets.

<<SNIP>>

One consequence is an upending of the traditional pattern, in which middle-aged children take in an elderly parent. As $15-an-hour factory jobs are replaced by $7- or $8-an-hour retail jobs, more men in their 30s and 40s are moving in with their parents or grandparents, said Cheryl Thiessen, the director of Jackson/Vinton Community Action, which runs medical, fuel and other aid programs in Jackson and Vinton Counties.

<<SNIP>>

Shari Joos, 45, a married mother of four boys in nearby Wellston, said, “If you don’t work at Wal-Mart, the only job you can get around here is in fast food.” Between her husband’s factory job and her intermittent work, they made $30,000 a year in the best of times, Mrs. Joos said. Since last fall, when her husband was laid off by the Merillat cabinet factory, which downsized to one shift a day from three, keeping anywhere near that income required Mrs. Joos to take a second job. She works at a school cafeteria each weekday from 9:30 a.m. to 1 p.m and then drives to Wal-Mart, where she relaxes in her car before starting her 2-to-10 p.m. shift at the deli counter.

Her 20-year-old son went to college for two years, earning an associate degree in information science, but cannot find any jobs nearby. He still works at McDonald’s and lives at home as he ponders whether to move to a distant city, as most local college graduates must. Her 22-year-old son works at Burger King and lives with his grandparents — “that was his way of moving out,” Mrs. Joos said.

<<SNIP>>

Mr. Evans said that moving back into the home where he grew up, after decades of independence, was a stinging reminder that “I lost everything I worked for all my life.”

in this country. What ever happened to the land of opportunity? I know people who have masters degrees that don't make $30,000 a year.

I make 24000 usdollars a year before taxes, about 18000 after and I have an MA. but I have lots of free time.

that you don't face going to Iraq.

Sarkozy wants to show the USA how friendly he can be after all....

I'm an unemployed engineer now at sixty years old. I live in Detroit, I have no insurance, I make $11,000 as a teacher assistant and am about to lose my home that I worked for for 30-years.

Obama and Clinton cannot do what EDWARDS has prescribed. Edwards is walking his talk and has a plan that everything will be done..............I pray he gets in there to bring dignity to me, my family and others.

JOHN EDWARDS 08

Fighting to try to keep my house. I put so much sweat and blood into restoring it for my family. I had a serious accident and am now on disability, my wife lost her job and my youngest daughter became seriously ill. Our income was cut by more than half but the bills kept increasing. My wife did find a new job after 2 1/2 years, I just hope its not too late. I pray for you and people like us, and hope you can get help. BTW, please let me now what you do, because right now my head is spinning and I'm at a loss for where to start. I also pray he gets in there to bring dignity to me, my family and others.

In a country where there was Universal Single Payer Health Insurance, we would still have a sizeable chunk of our retirement savings left.

But wait - that would be <gasp> socialism!

We can't have that!! I have no faith in us ever having something like Universal Single Payer Health Insurance, insurance companies won't allow it.

The banking companies also want a "No" on Universal Single Payer - as long as the middle income person is stripped of their disposable income, so they are usually dead broke, the banks are guaranteed that that whole class of people will have to rely on credit cards.

banking, insurance, oil and every other giant corporation that runs our government all benefit by keeping the middle to low income Americans living paycheck to paycheck. How else would they be able to keep us in our place and continue to rule us? If we had the disposable income we should, we wouldn't have to rely on the enormous chokehold they have us in. Its a win-win for them, borrow the money to pay for the oil, take the insurance that your employer offers you and pay the premiums and co-pays that come along with it, which brings us around to refinancing your house at their ridiculous interest rates, just so you can pay off your credit cards, which by now are maxed out. Its a vicious cycle, that once started is almost impossible to get out of.

I left Michigan back in 1988 because I didn't see any future there. It looks like time hasn't changed things.

(tell me us?? wtf?) Oh hell I'll just leave it

Labor dispute=plant shuts down.

"Labor dispute=plant shuts down?" Not in the Democratic party we don't see fighting for workers rights as hopeless, nor do we surrender our future and our well-being to the decisions of management without a fight. Do we? Corporations, and the wealthy and powerful, already have a party to represent their interests. Are you saying that the working people should not have representation? Are you saying that this is not the traditional role of the Democratic party?

For millions of suffering people in this country, without a voice or an advocate for decades, it is not merely a "situation" that needs to be "fixed." It is rapidly becoming a life and death struggle. The opposition is fully engaged, motivated and clear about their goals - promoting the welfare of the wealthy and powerful few at all times in all ways at the expense of the other 90% of us. Can we afford to be any less clear or motivated than they are?

Edwards is, at the very least, a voice and an advocate. None of us who are supporting him are so naive to think that he is going to "fix" everything, nor in a democracy should we look to a strong arm autocratic leader to act as a unitary executive.

Obviously, talking about an issue does not "solve" it, however - it is dead certain that if an issue does not get talked about nothing will ever happen, and everything in politics starts with people talking about it.

Hard to tell what your point is here. Are you saying that fighting for workers rights is hopeless? Or are you opposed to that fight? Are you saying that no politician can raise an issue until he or she has all of the solutions? Are you saying that these issues should not be raised? Are you saying that we should give up or be quiet?

you did not answer the question. Thanks anyway.

in the OP.

Bully pulpit. Working with a Democratic Congress. Repealing NAFTA would be a damn good start.
Remember Ross Perot and his prediction of that sucking sound? Looks like he turned out to be a prophet (and I was not a fan of Ross Perot).

Something has to be done to stop giving tax breaks to companies who move American jobs offshore. Edwards
is raising the issue. You can't solve a problem if it isn't identified as a problem.

The corporate Dems don't seems to think these job losses are even worth talking about. They sure as hell wouldn't pay any attention if Edwards weren't setting the domestic agenda.

"I believe we cannot go on as Two Americas—one favored, the other forgotten—if we plan to stay productive, competitive and secure. I want to live in an America where we value work as well as wealth. I know that together we can build One America – a place where everyone has a fair shot at the American Dream." -- John Edwards

"In America today, families are working harder to get by. Over the last 20 years, American incomes have grown apart: 40 percent of the income growth in the 1980s and 1990s went the top 1 percent. The top 300,000 individuals now make more than the bottom 150 million. Thirty-seven million Americans—including more than 9.3 million of working-age—live in poverty. The result is Two Americas, one struggling to get by and another that has everything it could want. "

"Strengthen Labor Laws: Union membership can be the difference between a poverty-wage job and middle-class security. Federal law promises workers the right to choose a union, but the law is poorly enforced, full of loopholes, and routinely violated by employers. Edwards supports the Employee Free Choice Act to give workers a real choice in whether to form a union. Unions made manufacturing jobs the foundation of our middle class, and they can do the same for our service economy. That's why Edwards has helped more than 20 national unions organize thousands of workers over the last few years. Union membership can be the difference between a poverty-wage job and middle-class security. Federal law promises workers the right to choose a union, but the law is poorly enforced, full of loopholes, and routinely violated by employers. Edwards supports the Employee Free Choice Act to give workers a real choice in whether to form a union, and making penalties for breaking labor laws tougher and faster, so unions can compete on a level playing field and the right to join a union means something. Edwards also supports banning the permanent replacement of strikers so unions can negotiate fairly."

"Enact Smarter Trade Policies: Trade deals need to make sense for American workers, not just corporations. Edwards will make sure any new trade agreements include strong labor and environmental standards and will vigorously enforce American workers' rights in existing agreements. He will also expand trade adjustment assistance to do much more for the workers and communities that are hurt by global competition and reform our international tax code to remove incentives for companies to move overseas."

"Edwards pledges to protect the Davis Bacon Act, which ensures that workers on federal construction projects receive the local prevailing wage. The Act prevents contractors from slashing wages in order to win federal contracts with low-ball bids. It was shocking when President Bush intervened to keep workers from earning a decent wage after Hurricane Katrina, but we must be vigilant every day against abuses."

"To help protect workers, Edwards will create a new Labor taskforce to target the industries with the worst abuses of minimum wage and overtime laws. He will step up enforcement of the misclassification of employees as independent contractors and strengthen workplace safety rules."

"Edwards will increase the reward for working by raising the minimum wage to at least $9.50 an hour by 2012 and then indexing it, tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) for adults without children and cutting the EITC marriage penalty. In 2001, a $1 increase in the minimum wage alone would have lifted an estimated 900,000 people out of poverty."

"Every American should have the chance to work their way out of poverty, but some willing workers cannot find jobs because of where they live, a lack of experience or skills, or other obstacles, like a criminal record. Edwards will create a million short-term jobs to help individuals move into permanent work."

That was the question. And I also think Edwards is the one that will help.

is this when he is not co-sponsoring illegal, immoral and expensive invasions?

Your post precluded consideration of the most important ways that Edwards can help us. Thinking that Labor activism just leads to closed plants, and is therefore self-defeating, with the implication that Labor activism is no solution, could not possibly see what Edwards could do to help. You start out by dismissing and rejecting the very heart of the traditional Democratic party answer to these problems.

That makes your "question" irrelevant and insincere.

You do not support Labor. Of course you wouldn't support Edwards. To ask "what can Edwards do for the working people given that we are going to reject a priori the traditional Democratic party support for organized Labor" is to ask how we can not be Democrats and still have any credibility or integrity when we judge Democratic party leaders. The answer to that is simple - you cannot. Edwards is not trying to be a Democrat who does not support traditional Democratic party principles, so if you are looking for that he would not be your candidate, would he?

Hillary, Obama , and McCains are Tax cuts for manufacturing, and Industry and or $300 tax rebate or cut to the working man, not jobs. Job or $300 take your pick.

Jobs, DECENT JOBS!! We need another "New Deal", Truman tried "the Fair Deal" but that didn't work. I believe Edwards is the one to do it, but the deck is stacked against him, although I'm not giving up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Deal
In United States history, the Fair Deal was U.S. President Harry S. Truman's policy of social improvement, outlined in his 1949 State of the Union Address to Congress on January 5, 1949. Truman stated that "Every segment of our population, and every individual, has a right to expect from his government a fair deal." Despite a mixed record of contemporary legislative success, the Fair Deal remains significant in establishing a call for universal health care as a rallying cry for the Democratic Party. Lyndon Johnson credited Truman's unfulfilled program as influencing Great Society measures such as Medicare that Johnson successfully enacted during the 1960s.

DK's been pushing it for over 4 years now.

whose plan it is as long as it is being talked about? The media ignores Edwards, but DK is even less likely to be heard. I don't care who gets credit for it, I just want it implemented.

Maybe if we were more scrupulous about seeing who's on our side vs who's paying lip service, we'd get a better-quality politician. hmmmm?

I think a quality politician like DK doesen't really care about the credit. I think he would just like to see some of his ideas used.

It's we who should give credit, and demand that politicians --as practice in being honest, not a common skill among the breed-- do too.

And the best way to do that is in the voting booth.

I agree with EVERY word of your post. "It is rapidly becoming a life and death struggle." And talking about it is at the very least, a starting point. Edwards HAS been talking about it, for those of us that are listening anyway. And like you said, no one can just step in and "fix it", but too many people are not listening and therein lies the problem. And that is because MSM, insurance co's, big corpoations and the like are scared shitless of Edwards, they are doing everything in their power to keep his message from being heard.

but getting the message out has been the problem, because it doesn't fit into the neatly packaged campaign the MSM is shoving down our throats.

I can relate

Hell ... the Dems don't even respect my vote. :grr:

battling to keep our home. Too many people can relate, its sad.

to pay off your house. This practice is very popular in the middle class suburbs of Chicago. 20, plants, 4 harvests a year, easily 15 ,000 in untaxed profits. that spare room or basement can help make ends meet. Make money off of drugs like poor people have been doing for a long time already.

I'll leave that to the "experts", thanks for the suggestion though.

pointing out that the middle class is no longer middle class and that illegal schemes are becoming more and more acceptable amongst the middle class as they struggle with poverty and the drastic loss of income, as has been the case for decades for the poor.

but I got a kick out of it though.

Thank you but no. :eyes:

if you are already faced with losing everything you worked for, the risk of jail may not seem so bad, plus in Illinois it is VERY VERY tolerant for growing. the first conviction for up to 50 plants is 2 years probation.

thats where the most profits are , easy to maintain, no disruptions. Or I guess we could become prison guards and sell weed to the Prisoners. All kinds of opportunity in free trade.

...interview for a new job, that age discrimination isn't playing a part! You'll never have substanstial proof, but when you hear another lame reason why you weren't picked (my fave: "You're a little overqualified".) you know exactly what happened.

The older you get, the less the System can persuade you to part with your money. You don't fall for the latest trends, you don't funnel the market economy like the younger kids who drop a month's salary for the next big thing. I truly believe that since we're not a generation who throws our wages into the capitalist vortex, the soulless corporations are far less vested in giving us jobs, knowing that we keep more of our assets to ourselves.

How fucking pathetic that the soulless corporations who rule our lives just dump people like so much garbage! On a visceral level, it is 1 millions ways of wrong!

At 53, I only have a job because I have a strong union, working for the airlines. But a co-worker of mine got promoted to management in 2002, and a few months ago, they found a way to force him out. Now, at 59 he's searching for a job, and especially for health care. He's HIV positive, and too young for medicare, so he's shelling out huge bucks for his proteaze inhibitors! Since the soulless corporations are responsible for our health care, then it's highly unlikely he'll be hired anywhere soon.

That's the other reason people our age don't get hired: it's assumed we're on our last legs and we'll suck the corporate health care dry. Until medical insurance is provided by another source other than our employers, job hunting will still be ageist, and discriminate against obese people too. There's gotta be a better provider for health care other than getting it thru your job!!

I was lucky, though--I had my car, my clothes and shoes, a mattress and box spring set, my family photos, and a lamp. That was it--I even lost my dog. Three months after that, I lost my job and my insurance. I spent six months looking for a job and finally found one right when I was becoming suicidal because I thought I would lose my little cheap apartment and everything else. Three and a half years later, I finally got a better job, more money that I've ever made in my life (don't get excited, I'm an executive assistant), but now, the dumb-ass fundy freepers I work for, who couldn't run a business if their life depended on it, are about to drive our company into the ground. I'll be 51 in June, and I fear I may be out of work in less than a year. I'm resolved to save every penny I can, but it's hard to do with gas and groceries being so expensive.

We need someone who can address these problems NOW and not later, or the entire middle class will be living on the streets. I think Edwards may be the one to do that.

Corporations don't need federal assistance--PEOPLE do.

and stupid these corporations have become. They don't give a shit about their employees, its only the bottom line they care about. Both my wife and I have been through it enough that it actually feels like a normal part of life. That is a sad statement, but I can't help feeling that way.

live in constant fear that we will

Hubby's job went away when WorldCom screwed up, then his health went. We had to go through Ch.7 bankruptcy because SSDI provides just enough to live on...sort of. To get him medical care, we had to cash out everything. Now there is nothing except the monthly check.

down at the local megachurch told 'em the chimp was against queers gettin married and unmarried slutty women havin abortions.

I feel bad that these people are in the situation they're in but you could sure see it coming before the 2000 elections.

own best interests. I use to live in Dayton, OH and when I was growing up most in the 50's and 60's, everyone was a Democrat and belonged to a union. Then people from the South moved north after they lost their land to increased taxes and no jobs. They moved to the factory towns and brought with them their strict Christian religions.

During the civil rights era many of those Dems became Repubs. They feared they were losing their way of life. The only way they felt like somebody was to have someone lower on the totem than they were. That was the African Americans who did janitorial jobs but never got a job on the line and never could take their kids to the company recreational park.

My dad was one of those poor white men. They did piece work and voted for Reagan. Then the computer revolution took their jobs away. NCR, Frigidaire, Chrysler Air Temp, Delco, Reynolds and Reynolds all shut their doors and the factory jobs were gone.

They still haven't recovered or changed their attitudes.

People can't support an alternative when there is no alternative.

finance. I graduated in my late 30's. I worked forty hours a week and went to school full time.

People have to learn that they must count on themselves if they want to get to a better place.

"Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" and "look out for number one" is already adequately represented. It is based on a false premise, one that the Republicans have been pounding into our heads for the last 30 years.

never get. If there is one thing the left can learn from the right is this. You are chiefly responsible for how your life goes.

I don't agree with looking out for yourself only. I have shared much of what I get with others.

I see it so much here at DU. The victim mentality. You may not be able to change some things but you certainly can change how you react to them.

You are welcome to your opinion, I am just pointing out that it is a right wing theme. I wasn't certain that this is what you were saying until you dragged out the "victim mentality" idea and criticized the DU membership and said that the left needs to learn things from the right. We part ways there, I am afraid, and I am certain that my view is quintessentially and foundationally in the mainstream of the best traditions of the party, and consistent with Democratic party ideals and principles.

The reason that it is a false idea is because it ignores all of the ways that individual imitative is dependent upon the resources of the community, and because it blames those less fortunate for their own plight. That is a popular and attractive idea, especially after 30 years or more of the Republicans harping on it. The Republicans have always been lying about that, by the way. They seek to protect and defend entrenched wealth and privilege and to close off all avenues for the average person to lift themselves up. They have reinforced this "victim mentality" theme with disgusting and corrosive ideas such as the "welfare queens" and such.

If you are in favor of every man for himself, and think that the Democrats must learn from the right wing, and that we have too much "victim mentality" may I ask what it is that attracts you to the Democratic party?

Haven’t we had about enough of Republican lite and “learning” from the right wingers? I think it is time we teach them a lesson. Just wait ‘til you see how they squeal when their power and privilege is threatened, and you will see what “victim mentality” is really all about.

Until then, I am not going to attack millions of working people—as the Republicans demand we do— because of some malicious and false characterization of the American people as lazy or dependent, nor will I attack the Democratic party or seek to undermine the party’s traditional advocacy for the less fortunate. There already is a party for those who subscribe to social Darwinism and trickle down and supply side and “rich people have rights too” and “poor people are lazy” and “they are just playing the victim.” I am opposed to that party, and to all of its ideas in whatever form they take.

Thank you. No good deed go unpunished, but we just can't stop doing them. Dems find a need and fill it from their pocketbooks with empathy; Pukes find a need (in their own pocketbooks) and exploit it until there's a bigger need, then do the same, with as much hostility as they can muster.

It doesn't matter a hill of beans how many people believe something, that doesn't make it so.

You are saying that I agree with the right as defined by you. I don't. All I said was that you must take responsibility for you own life. Nothing more. If you suffer it is because of choices you make.

That is a hard concept for most people to understand. Thus the victim mentality.

Here is a quote from a book that says it much better than I ever can.

"This idea that the power to achieve happiness lies totally within can be disconcerting. It entails a radical sense of responsibility. ..........
Society is complex and harsh, demanding that you struggle hard to survive. No one can make you happy. Everything depends on you as to whether or not you attain happiness...... A human being is destined to a life of great suffering if he is weak and vulnerable to his external surroundings."


You are taking your opposition to what you think the right stands for and projecting that on to what I said thus saying that I am the right. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

On edit:

This idea of personal responsibility has nothing to do with political parties here or anywhere else. It is a universal law of life and nature.

Also, DU in my opinion is not representative of the Democratic party. The mainstream Democrats are more the the center than most of the posts here. The victim mentality is so very evident in the great many of the posts here. The whining and pity pot posts are very immature in my opinion.

As Democrats we have a responsibility to as best we can see that everyone has an opportunity to have a decent quality of life, to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. We cannot make the world fair but we can try to lessen the impact of an unfair world.

The Democratic party is committed to the common welfare, to building cooperative structures, to supporting community action, to acknowledging and strengthening our inter-comnectiveness and need for mutual support. This is not contradictory to personal responsibility, no matter how many times the right wingers claim it to be.

The right wing political movement in this country is founded on the libertarian/individualism/selfishness blame-the-victim idea that "you must take responsibility for you own life. Nothing more. If you suffer it is because of choices you make."

Much suffering people are experiencing today is the result of choices that others made that are being forced on them. In fact, I would say that almost all suffering in this country is caused by that.

You say that "this idea of personal responsibility has nothing to do with political parties here or anywhere else. It is a universal law of life and nature." This is false. It very much has to do with politics, since it is foundational to a particular political movement.

The question is not whether or not people should take "personal responsibility." The question is whether or not it should be seen as universal natural law that transcends all other concerns. I say that this is contrary to Democratic party ideals. Obviously, the sick, the suffering, the elderly, the young, and many others cannot take "personal responsibility" and be blamed for their bad choices if we are to have any compassion. Also obvious is that none of us are an island, and no one can do it alone. We are cooperative social beings.

When it comes to human beings, the universal and natural law is this: "we each do better when we take care of all, and our first responsibility is to each other, particularly those unable to help themselves."

Each of our well being is dependent upon the well being of all, and we look to the least among us as a barometer of the health of the society, not to the winners.

You are born and live 80 years of so. Some of what goes on in your environment or the life and times that you live in is caused by you and some is caused by outside influences. But there is cause and effect. By taking personal responsibility means making a choice as to how you will react to these effects. You can chose to do something or you can chose to do nothing. Both are choices. Therefore you are responsible for how these effects influence your life.

Now even if you chose to do something there is no guarantee that things will turn out good for you. But if you do nothing you lose all your ability to effect the outcome.

It is a lot like playing cards. You get delt a hand and you are responcible for how you play it. If you lose you can blame the dealer or fate or what ever but still you played the cards.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. What you say here is good, and I find no fault with it as a personal approach to life, and I share your approach in my own personal life.

However, when we are talking about politics, what you say does not apply the way you are applying it. Hear me out, and give it some consideration is all I ask of you.

Let's say for the sake of argument that life is analogous to a card game, as you say. Yes, we take what is dealt to us and make the best of it. But politics is not about how we play the game as individuals, it is about the game itself. If the game is hopelessly rigged, then blaming the dealer is not contrary to taking personal responsibility, it is in fact taking a much higher level of responsibility.

The situation we have - and I think this is undeniable - is that no matter how most of us play the game we are liable to lose, while others are winning no matter what. This has little or nothing to do with how well an individual plays the cards they are dealt, it has to do with the way the game is set up.

When you say take right and left and political parties out of this, you are asking me to do something that I will not do. You are asking me to surrender my main point as a prerequisite for the discussion. You are asking us to ignore the rigged game, and focus solely on how each of us play it as individuals. If we ignore politics, we give up all of our power, and ironically we also avoid our most important responsibility - that of being a responsible member of a cooperative community, which is what it means to be a human being, concerned more with the fairness of the game itself than our own personal chance at winning the game.

If we ignore right versus left, the right doesn't go anywhere, it is only the left that is disappeared. The right rests on the protection, defense and promotion of the interests of those with entrenched wealth, power and privilege. So long as the wealth, power and privilege is unfairly retained by the few and used to rig the game against the many, the right will exist with or without politics. The left is about the fairness and sustainability of the game itself, and the prosperity and well being of the many as being the only moral as well as practical and desirable outcome of the game.

I agree with you that each person needs to take responsibility for the way they play the cards they are dealt. But I believe we have a higher and more important responsibility, and that is to fight for the integrity and fairness of the game against those who would rig it for their own selfish advantage at the terrible expense of the needless suffering and deprivation of millions of others, and to support the well being of all as the main and only appropriate goal of the game. That is why we are Democrats. We place our obligation and responsibility to the entire community above our responsibility to our own personal success - in fact, we see that as our most important personal responsibility.

For me I can take politics out of it. The way I see it some people choose to do unwholesome or negative things that influence our lives negatively. This is the right or repubs in your example I think. But it is also all of us. We also do negative things to ourselves.

Now the world we are born into sucks or is painful or causes us suffering. Partly because of those who do negative things that effect us negatively. But why we suffer is not because of what others do but because of how we react to what they do. We all want a world of peace and happiness for all. That isn't about to happen and because what we want isn't going to happen we suffer. Or because we desire that which can't be, we suffer.

Now you can work your butt off making a better world for all and well you should. By doing that you are lessening the suffering of all. You are also creating good karma for yourself and others.

You chose to act in the right way while those that effect you negatively act in the wrong way. They are creating negative karma for themselves and others.

Bringing back politics, we could say the right is selfish and greedy while the Dems believe in more social justice and the common good. I find it hard to label the right as all evil and the left as all good.

I choose to call my self a Dem because I truly believe it is the party of the common good rather than the party of self interest.

But none of that takes away my responsibility for my own life or how I choose to react to what the right is doing.

No argument. I agree.

of age who worked their way through higher education making many sacrifices along the way. When they graduated the jobs they had studied for were not there. Consequently, these young people took whatever they could find, mostly service jobs in fast food or bars, to pay student loans and living costs. You say they are the result of their choices. Was higher education a poor choice? Their degrees include finance, business, and education to name a few.

Now they are strapped, as many of us are, with incomes that can't support life and prices that continue to escalate. What I find that is remarkable is that these young citizens continue to strive for a better life. They group together to save money by living 3 to 4 to an apartment, car pooling and sharing belongings. Life was not this way here in the U.S. when I graduated from college in 1969. These 'kids' blame themselves and I try to tell them they are not to blame.

Two of the young men in this group who had found something only a bit better than fast food both lost their jobs after six and eight years respectively at their companies: ING and Wells Fargo.

A most dreadful note: one, thirty years old, committed suicide last week.

I disagree with your lumping of people who have not experienced success (incomes that sustain living expenses, health care and the ability to save) are responsible....to me they have shown nothing but responsibility and they're still screwed. Amen and imho.

"If you suffer it is because of choices you make. "

Sorry to inform you but the system has been rigged to screw the middle class & poor over. It doesn't matter if you have an education or not or if you are white collar or blue collar. They've got YOU by the short hairs and it's only a matter of time before they screw you over too. You may think not, but wait till you are older, close to retirement like some on this thread have talked about has been their experience. Make no mistake, you too WILL be disposable then. Just get really sick and see what happens to YOU. It won't be pretty.


FYI:
What many of us have been trying to say here on DU does NOT come from having a poor me or victim attitude. Again, that kind of spew is nothing more than an ugly rethuglican meme.

The fact of the matter is that across the board workers in this country have been reduced to being treated by their employers like peons, as just a number, replaceable.


This country was founded upon the fact that WE ARE ALL FREE AND ALL EQUAL.

There is NO humanity and NO freedom and NO equality when the prevailing behavior of employers is to treat their employees as so much trash that is easily replaced.

:grr:

else there is to do.

I don't deny that employers are screwing people over and that the wealthy power elite have it in for the middle class. That is the situation we are in. It's up to us to do something about it. Whining and crying poor me won't solve the problem.

Nothing I have said is right wing. It is common sense that when you are in a survival mode you must do something for yourself. You can do something for others too but waiting till some white knight comes from the left to save you is not going to happen.

What I see happening in this tread is that we get our definitions of the right and left out on the table and then proceed to neatly put everyone into one or the other category.

Working to improve your quality of life is not right or left. It's something we all are trying to do. You are in a situation and you have two choices, do something about it or don't. Both are choices made by you.

and then you complain about the "victim mentality"? The rising inequality they inevitably bring whenever they're in power does diminish a person's power to get ahead. Just think of rising tuition costs when Republicans cut spending--that DOES substantially reduce Americans chances of getting anywhere. It DOES close avenues. So does lack of Universal Health Care which Republicans fight tooth and nail against, cuts to veteran benefits, rising insurance premiums, etc.

There ARE victims--don't blame them.

situation. Hell we all know how hard it's getting. But you have to take responsibility for your life no matter what the right is doing.

extent that is true.

It's a good idea, too, not to make bad choices such as acquiring a disability or chronic illness. :sarcasm:

which started in childhood. Guess I should have picked a different family in which to be born; and a different genetic makeup.

Sure.

anyone who will hire me (I'm currently doing piece work -- curriculum analysis) and my husband with 2 college degrees took 14 months to find a shitty job. College degrees don't do it anymore. Neither does experience. A couple of years ago I interviewed for a teaching position at a private vocational education school that required an M.A. for which they were going to pay me a whole $10.00 an hour.

FYI

That's the essence of an awful lot of Reagan Democrats.

mowing HIS grass - ah, how noble.

during the 2000 campaign, a WV coal miner being interviewed and saying "Gore ain't gonna take my guns away, so I'm voting for Bush". If that's not against your own best interests, I don't know what is. Tha sad part is that if gore won WV, the election could not have been stolen.

They probably thought they would be financially better off with a tax refund, and the M$M constantly claimed that there was not much difference between Bush and Gore.

A whole generation "had it too good" for too long, and the big shots want all the money again..

The next shoe to drop will be the coming fiasco as people try to start living on their 401'ks..and realize that the pie-in-the-sky they were sold as a replacement for pensions was a moldy old pie indeed.

As 50-somethings are "phased out of jobs", they enter the DANGER ZONE of health, and many will lose everything they thought they had, due to illness during that 15 year "donut hole" before they become eligible for Medicare..

Then watch the "run on the market." The investment bankers keep looking for more PUMP to offset the DUMP ... and that AmWay pyramid scheme has limits.

Now that everyone's home equity is gone, that's what they'll try to steal next: all that 401K money. Pensions are already gone, and they'd love to find a way to get at our Social Security.

And when that's all gone, everyone can live check-to-check on payday advances at 700% interest. Isn't this country great?

scams popping up for 'making 401K money last through a person's lifetime'. People who are entrusting the management of their 401K money (upon retirement) can see their savings 'vanish' in a couple of years. They had one story about a guy who had something like $180K from his 401K go down to $19,000 in a couple years because he trusted a firm that was running a Ponzi scheme.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2008-01-16-boomer-lump-sums_N.htm

to rip FDR's programs apart right from the begining.

Or does everyone have to lose their jobs first?

they are still trying to pretend that we aren't in a recession. They have been covering up for this corrupt adm for years now, bush has been fixing the numbers for years.

for quite awhile now, IMO.

Their seem to think they are safe just like I did . I knew things were not going well as far as jobs go and since I had a job and was not looking for another I really did not know just how bad things were out there .

I saw some signs , people than used to come into the dealership I working at who used to spend money to get their cars repaired were not walking in parked at the curb asking me if i would just look at their car and give them an idea what it may need , the dealer charged $65 per hour and this was just for one thing checked out in one dept .

I went out and looked and did what I could because I know what it's like to be broke hoping someone will spare a few minutes of their time to help me out , what used to be called humanity and caring .

sometimes it was something simple and i would just fix it , sometimes it was bad news I would hate to have to give them , just to see the look of despair on their face would kill me .

It was there and evident however even though I did care and saw this I felt at least I had a job and would be ok .

This took 30 minutes to end , felt like a shock wave and I still felt I could get another job doing the same thing but I soon found there was nothing out there and here I am now .

so yes you never know the true impact until it happens to you , you can suspect all you want and feel safe and sit their at times and hope you can survive but this means nothing when you see the big picture .

I am 59 and I found through all the applications and interviews that after a while you know your age plays a major roll , there are many people much younger looking and applying for tht same job , you don't see this of course but you know it in time .

Experience does not matter or your employment history , then there is the issue of your credit which i had none and then the back ground check which I have no marks , again this does not matter .

I even went to the dept of rehab to find a job , they told me they had contacts , I was hopeful , the trouble is the people who find you the job are out sourced and what they offer is to show you how to fill out an app and do an interview and search for jobs online . I already know this stuff , and they had no contacts ' it's really retraining for people who have orked in years and how to deal with the job market in this day and age . With no jobs out there , what good is it , some people were fresh out of prison , others were women who were now on their own .

If everyone has to lose their job before they "get it," then many of us will die in the process. Since my disabled relative and I are barely staying afloat on what I make + the little that the state offers, we are both keenly aware that one bit of bad luck could kill both of us.

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles in that regard. I hope you are able to eek out a living until conditions change, as we are attempting to do.

my father is a 57 year old mechanic. Our family would be shit out of luck if he lost his job.



after putting in so many years of work and having a great amount of experience you find that no one wants you to work for them. What a shit world we are living in.

Reminds me of a sex pistols lyric.

there's no future, no future for me

That their insurance premiums go up.

I wasn't aware of that fact until a friend of mine got all grouchy with his boss. He said to the guy one day, "Usually I get a 6 or 7% raise each year - it's been two years and I haven't gotten one. His employer said, "Well, Pete, we kept you employed, and the moment you hit your fortieth birthday, our insurance premiums went up."

In a fair world, every news story would include
that critical data.

Tesha

kick impoverished people while they're down. :eyes: :puke:

I'm all done caring about what happens to impoverished
people who are stupid enough to vote for Republicans
over and over and over again, even as their lives
fall into economic hell.

Let them eat Bibles.

Tesha

Yours is the most bizarre and illogical post I've read here on DU. Congratulations. :crazy:

:rofl: Gotta love the "checkbook liberals."

she should kick her own ass. :rofl:

It's entirely likely that these particular people did;
the country, especially "the Heartland", is full of
"Reagan Democrats"

And meanwhile, in November, here in NH we are quite likely
to convert John Sununu Jr.'s Republican Senate seat into
Jeanne Shaheen's DLC Senate seat. Hopefully, it will be
an improvement.

Tesha

You will likely regret some of these posts in the morning. Maybe you should lie down? :think:

But I still vote Democratic because voting Republican
is bad for one's Karma.

But you're not going to convince me that I should spend
any more time worrying about what happens to the "God,
Guns, and Gays!" crowd as everything they ever voted
comes home to roost. Once they learn that actions have
consequences, we'll *ALL* be better off for it.

Yes, Reagan cut their taxes. He also set in motion
the forces that ended their careers. I wonder if it
was worth it for them?

Tesha

in the primary.

http://www.ci.nashua.nh.us/filestorage/51/74/166/UnofficialPresPrim.pdf

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

:think: :rofl:

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Come on Tesha. Please. Do not go down the dark path on us.

And the economically-disadvantaged people who
*STILL* stupidly vote for the Republicans certainly
fall into that class.

Like I said, let them eat their Bibles (or the
lottery tickets that they're so sure will make
them rich someday, so don't you dare tax the rich
'cause they're going to be one of them someday,
just you wait!).

Tesha

Who are you to judge people and to think about saving them?

They vote Republican to save themselves from attitudes such as yours. Hard to blame them for that.

I am worried about the "tough breaks" that millions of people around me are getting.

(NT)

Of course people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

I am holding you responsible for your callous and cruel stance toward the less fortunate among us, and pointing out the terrible destructive consequences of that to the spirot and well being of the larger community to which we all belong.

non-wealthy people who vote republican deserve ALL the misery it brings them.

Painful though it may be. They're acting as willing fools
for the wealthy, who wave the shiny "God, Guns, and Gays!"
slogan in front of the fools and the fools all bend over
and kiss their jobs goodbye.

Tesha

They don't seem quite as giddy any more.

Don

I remember at the time my youngest daughter was attending college and working part time, she got a letter from the IRS telling her that she was "not a real taxpayer" even though she did pay income tax. I could never figure that out.

they are biting my nose off as well.

Perhaps a little less condescension and more compassion for the working class is in order.

why would/should i have any compassion for people who proudly vote against their own and society's self-interest? :shrug:

Yes or no please. Do you have an ounce of compassion in you?

> Yes or no please. Do you have an ounce of compassion in you?

Yes. I have quite a few ounces of compassion, in fact, but
I choose to spend it on people who haven't spent the last 28
years pissing on my ideals (as Republicans and Reagan
"Democrats" have).

I think one of the big failings of the Democrats is that
we always try to "make things okay for everyone" no matter
how hard many of the "everyones" are busily trying to make
things lousy for everyone but themselves.

For example, the Reagan Democrats have spent 28 years trying
to tell us that women's rights don't matter; that minority
rights don't matter; that gay rights don't matter; that
educating children is a waste of money; that it's okay to
go to foreign countries and blow the shit out of them, and
on and on. And like a good enabling beaten wife, the Democrats
have tried to say "It's okay, we still love you, we know you
still love us, and we'll try to make things better for you."

Fuck that!

Let the Reagan Democrats realize that they are now suffering
*AS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE* of all that hatred and contempt
of our society that they've been spewing all these years.
They've torn apart the social fabric and the social safety
net so now, metaphorically, kick them out of the house and
let them go live down at the tavern or under a bridge (and
make it a bridge for which they voted down the taxes that
would repair the bridge to keep it standing safely over
their heads).

The Democrats really need to start talking straight to
these people and one of the pieces of straight talk that
these people need to hear is 1) why societies are established
and 2) just what one's obligations are to the society in
which one lives.

Meanwhile, I'll spend my compassion on people who still
value their membership in our human society.

Tesha

on the people that need it. Like the people in the OP, I have no idea how they vote, and I don't care. Me and my family are going through some rough times right now, financially, so i can sympathize.

Now, with that said, I have been a Democrat all my life, I worked for our local Dem party before I was even voting age and would never even think of pulling a Repub lever at the polls. I despise EVERYTHING Raygun stands for, I lost one of the best jobs I ever had because of his union busting tactics. The so-called "Reagan Democrats" were misguided at the least and evil at worst. I always thought it could never get any worse during the Raygun years, I was wrong, and now believe it can get even worse than it is at this point. That is why I try not to let the past cloud my judgement, because if we do not allow the "Reagan Democrats" back into the fold and unite as a party we are doomed to keep repeating the status quo.

autoworkers start eating bullets from guns over it? Will you care then? Wait...it's too late.

Democratic organizations were sending out emails saying to vote for Romney since Michigan democratic delegates won't be seated this year. While I didn't do that personally, your post reveals a lack of understanding of the dynamics of that vote.

You're mssing my point: There are *REAL* Republicans and
Reagan-Democrats in Michigan. So every time there is one
of these sob-stry pieces about some poor Joe who's lost
his job, I'd like to know whether Poor Joe helped enable
his own destruction by voting for Republicans.

NPR ran another story like that this morning, about some
Poor Joe down in South Carolina who lost his job in the
textile mills and now has no income. I'd like to know
how this guy voted. And even if he happened to be one
of the rare South Carolina Democrats, I'll bet we could
all predict how his community voted as-a-whole.

But chickens eventually come home to roost.

Tesha

then yes, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. We've been talking about Driving While Black in another thread over the last couple days, and I figure you wouldn't want to sound like one of those cops who assumes people need to be checked out to see if they are guilty of anything in the absence of any other knowledge, based on where they live or what they look like.

There are real republicans in every state. I wouldn't want to be in a place mentally where my first thought when someone is out of work or can't get health care is to ask whether the person deserves it.

I am trying to picture what the world would be like if we all looked to place blame first before allowing ourselves to feel any compassion. Imagine soup kitchen volunteers wanting to know party affiliation before handing out meals, or Katrina relief workers wanting to know who people voted for before deciding whose houses to work on.

And when one votes for the Republicans because they'll
take care of those nasty gays/women/blacks/liberals,
sometimes it rebounds back on them.

Tesha

but you are sounding prejudiced against the midwest. I think you have issues that go beyond what actual election results show.

Presidential election: 2004

Michigan:
Kerry: 51.23%
Bush: 47.81%

New Hampshire (peeking at your profile here):
Kerry: 50.24%
Bush: 48.87%

Maybe you should add those "nasty michiganders" to your list of gays/women/blacks/liberals and other scapegoats.

And even in the latest election, Michigan delivered 1,953,139
votes for the Republicans.

I think it's a fair question to ask whether many of the people
who are crying about the state of the Michigan economy are the
same people who are casting those Republican ballots.

Tesha

Really, I don't know why you are so hung up on this state vs. that state, except as an exercise in bigotry and being divisive.

The country is a big purple web.


There are 10 million people in Michigan. Are they all "My Folks"? I don't even know what that means - is that like "my kind"?

Are all those people "my folks" as well?

You seem to have this idea in your head that states are a cohesive lump of people that you can categorize and judge as one monolithic group.

I hope you aren't in teaching or law enforcement. Or any sort of public service, actually.

Kerry only won four counties in 2004. They had enough population then to combine with other Dem votes to win, but we worked damn hard to get that win. It'll be harder this year with the Dems screwing us over in the primary.

On the western side of the state, it's very red. Grand Rapids is the second largest city, and it's growing. It's far more conservative than Detroit. So are the rural areas.

during the primaries, then hop up and vote for the same people who couldn't bother to set foot in Michigan in the first place.

I think not being "in the bag" for the Democrats may be the best thing that could happen for Michigan. The Democrats bend over backwards to kiss the ass of RED states like Iowa, South Carolina, and Nevada.

Why would someone vote for a nominee who didn't fight for them?

I can't figure the Dem strategy out for FL and MI.

> On the western side of the state, it's very red. Grand Rapids
> is the second largest city, and it's growing. It's far more
> conservative than Detroit. So are the rural areas.

Wasn't some guy named Gerald Ford from around there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford

Tesha

Or are you just "projecting"?

Tesha

:bounce: :crazy: :think: :think: :think: :crazy: :bounce:

:think:

:rofl:

(Although the best we'll manage is to convert the
seat from (R) to (DLC).)

Tesha

we won't have Gerald Ford in office either.

Seriously, when he died, that's all the news talked about. At all. It was crazy. My mom went to the viewing herself, figuring how many times in a lifetime do you get to go to the viewing of a dead ex-president.

Southeast Ohio . . . other than Athens, Belmont and Monroe counties, pretty much a Failure Fuhrer stronghold. I mean, you hate to piss on people's Wheaties, but were your sacrificed jobs and livelihoods really worth two guys not being allowed to get married now? Bewsh, while not directly responsible, certainly was part of the same corpro-governmental mafia that enabled all of these plants to move overseas.

Maybe we need to stop believing the whole "Gawd, Gunz and Gays" wedge issue bullshit coming out and start believing people who genuinely want to help you. Wrestling corporate control of everything is going to take a long while, and really, what hope do you give them?

But with Republicans and neo-lib, pro-free-trader Dems, these people will have little to no hope of improving their lives. Can't trade a manufacturing job for a service job and expect the difference to be made up. That's just the facts, ma'am.

It's amazing how people continue to vote against their personal interests.

After all, he is the asshole who pushed it into law!

if Hillary gets the nomination.

Voting for Hillary is a vote for MORE coporatism.
BHN

and Clinton finished the job. Either way, it sucks.

I know well how it is to lose a good job and not even be able to find one crappy job let alone two .

Right at that time in 2004 we sold everything just to keep going and I'm alright with this because things just don't make life better when everything is up for grabs and there is nothing that's secure . You never know , you are the last to know before they hand you that last check .

Where I worked they kept laying off people and took those jobs nad spread them out to others and we took them , did not get extra pay and we did not complain because you knew you were expendable too . Even after all of that other went the same route even after 20 years on the job .

I never made enough to save or get ahead until the last two years but that was not long enough to do much , now it's all gone .

At our age our parents are gone and there is no family home to go back to , even this would be short term at best .

:(

This government refuse to call it as it truly is.

:sarcasm:

I thought it would be a great idea if someone were to organize a worker-owned co-op factory. I've read about them being formed in Argentina and other parts of Latin America, and I think it's an idea whose time has come for the Rust Belt.

Comrade. :eyes:

Oh, wait, Gitmo's in Cuba... x(

Well, you might learn something interesting about how Communism works on the ground, and bring those ideas back to the proletariat in the US. :hi:

Form an S-Corp with all of the employees as shareholders. Elect a board. Pay dividends on top of wages. Start a stock options program.

Subversive,eh?

I just can't afford to live anywhere else. Until wages start rising ahead of inflation, it's not possible for me. I'm embarrassed by it, but what else can I do?

Made the terrible, awful mistake of majoring in an IT related field, now I'm making $10 an hour doing data entry.

I'm not embarassed by it though, what other choice do I have? One of my friends suggested the military. I declined that wonderful opportunity. When the Data Entry positions, the only job for which I am suited apparently, dry up, I may have to rethink that opportunity.

Congrats on drawing out a post from me though, I'm averaging one every 2.2 years :)

He does have his own apartment, and had signed a contract to buy a townhouse. He had two interviews
first week he was laid off (last week); he has two tomorrow and one on Friday. No offers yet, but with the interview activity he's hopeful. He was making $40K with a HS degree. He lives in the Research Triangle area of NC. He has lived and breathed computers since he was in second grade, so he's basically self-taught.

Where are you? Maybe you need to think about relocating. Or maybe you need help with developing your resume. Or maybe you need to post resume in different locations.

but at least you're still 25 and not 45. I know quite a few engineers and IT people nearing 50 who have recently been "downsized" and are at a loss as to where to go next. :-(

three weeks before the SOTU speech chimpie gave when he said outsourced folks should 'retrain'

hubby looked at me and asked "ReTrain? Retrain for WHAT???!!??"

we sold coffee for another 3 years until Viacom phased out our small services for a mega food corp.

luckily we were able to sell our house in Phoenix at the top of the bubble and buy this place cash.

so hubby did retrain. he retrained to drive semi-trucks in the oil fields.

now he's got an entry level position for DOE. at 49. and we're the lucky ones. I can't find a job except in the service sector. good thing I'm a good waitress/bartender.

he says these times remind him of when he took the Telecom job. he quit school one semester short of his Bachelor's Degree cuz he got a job offer. There were no jobs during the Reagun/BushieI administration either, he considered himself lucky back then.....

it's happening all over. My 26 year old daughter lived in Fort Lauderdale, FL for five years working as a mortgage broker, and then the bubble burst. She was making good money, but ended up taking a waitress job and just couldn't afford the pay cut. So now she is back home, living with us in PA trying to get back on her feet.

would have had an empty nest, as the kiddos moved out, and then they would have either kicked it into overdrive to prepare for their retirement, or have sold the bigger house & downsized to add to their savings..

These days, 40-50 somethings are helping their own "grown" kids AND many are helping their elderly (and getting older & sicker every year) parents...and working their asses off to keep paying for it all..there is nothing left over ..to save for themselves..

I'm not freeloading. I pay into the household expenses (bills, groceries, etc). :)

and between the three of us we manage to pay the rent. If each of us tried it on our own, we'd never make it.

Lucky for us we get along great, but its a bit of a tight squeeze in this small house - especially with my business here too.

I hope this may bring families closer or at least promote understanding of what the generations are going through.

Good luck to you...and to us all.

and the ones I know, end up subsidizing them :(

Goof your you for paying your way :hi:

when the adult kids' life goes to hell in a handbasket (job loss, moving, dialysis, bankruptcy, etc)

Mom sends grocery store gift cards and occasional $. At least we don't have to move in with them.

I lived at home until 24 when I finished my studies and then moved in with my girlfriend. With her I could split a studio appartment. By 26 we had a living room too....Living with your parents is nothing to be embarrassed about. Unless you can find a dependable roommate and are willing to split a tiny shithole there are really very little options in many parts of the USA.

I have a frined who lives with his wife and their 3 kids, his brother and his wife and their three kids, and he and his brothers parents. Together they have an 8 bedroom, 3 living room, one huge kitchen, 4 bathroom house with 2 fire places, a small pool and a yard for barbecues. They never would have been able to do that alone, but with 5 incomes they can.

You are just part of a new trend in the USA, the family unit will start to live like it did in the 1920's.

Damn, I wish all these people would stop whining and just do what Our Glorious Leader has wisely counseled us to do when our jobs are lost. All Jeffrey Evans has to do is go back to school and get a degree. Perhaps he should change careers and go into medicine or nuclear physics.

The opportunities are there for all of us in this great country.

And he also needs to learn to pray correctly. God will answer all of his needs if he is just faithful and gives seed money to sow a bountiful harvest.

:sarcasm:

it means he's being punished for a past sin I'm sure he committed.

While I have empathy for these people, pardon me while I say "we told you so." Ohio needs to stop voting for CONS in presidential elections or they get what they ask for!

I know, I know, not everyone voted for a Repube, but I think alot of these forementioned people did. :mad:

and am sometimes too softhearted for my own good, but people who don't vote for their own best interests take the rest of us down with them.

pocketbook trumps "values".

This is truly sad.

Thanks Bush!

His trade policies made this happen. He promoted the current trade system that lost us all of these jobs just as much as the two Bush's.

We kiss the face of recession today bacuse of Bush.

and eventually it gets easier to ignore the fact that the gap between the rich and poor continued to rise while the middle class got smaller under Clinton. Its easier for some people to ignore than others.

:hi:

Yes, that's a real problem.

they got the ball rolling as far as I'm concerned, fake-liberal Bill Clinton didn't help much either

:hi:

Bush Sr and Carla Hills negotiated it and signed it in 1992. Clinton inherited the implementing legislation and made it the law of the land. Clinton could have sat on it, fixed it, or renegotiated, but he gave us the finger instead.

you just insulted a shitload of people that voted Democrat in the last election. The blue collar Democrats fooled by Reagan, like my father, fell for the tv orineted media blitz made by Reagan. They, like my father, just absorbed tv and its images in an uncritical fashion and were duped. Democrats also pushed for laws many blue collar people thought of as shit, such as helmet laws for motorcycles and the 55 mph speed limit. This lost them many votes. When Democrats frantically called for more and more gun control, without making distinction for hunting weapons (a sort of gun demonization early on that has evolved to understand the demands of hunters)they lost a shitload of rural voters who voted for Reagan. Censorship of music, pushed for by Democrats, who wanted to censor Twisted Sister,etc. and formed the PMRC also did wonders to turn young blue collar folks away from Democrats.

no, but instead of questioning ourselves as Democrats, we should just blame the "assholes" that voted Reagan.

Thank you so much for this post.

The almost complete lack of empathy and compassion among some Democrats is disturbing on moral grounds, as well as being a significant barrier to the future success of the party.


on edit - typos

:hi:

It's ludicrous to suggest one can assume anything with zero information given on the matter.

:shrug:

You could, however, detail to us your rationale as to why you think Mr. Evans voted the way you think he did. But before that, you would need to specify exactly who you think he voted for.

own misery :hi:

You present no facts or even a cogent argument. Just cryptic and unsupported statements.

:shrug:

:hi:

not conjecture.

Did you know that S.E. Ohio used to be solidly a liberal bastion for years before the Democratic Party turned it's back on Labor, and just took Union votes for granted? There used to be many a unionized mine worker from these parts.

Do you think that unionized blue-collar people one day just decided to up and vote Republican just for shits and giggles? That many Democrats in this part of the world saw the party leaving them, and not the other way around?

Do you realize that Democratic support for Labor issues hasn't been a priority of the party since the DLC decided to side with the corporate money, instead of the people it (supposedly) represented? They give lip service, wring their hands a bit, but when push comes to shove, roll over for the corporations like a well-trained dog. After all, that's where the contributions come from.

I know people like this guy in the article. There are thousands just like him in this part of the country. They have no real economic prospects of any kind here. They are barely holding on to what little they do have left. As soon as their children are able, they leave.

But let's kick them in teeth instead of giving them hope. Let's alienate them further, and give them no reason to trust the Democratic Party.

After all, they are just a bunch of hicks that deserve what they get.


I want those people to vote Democratic. Let's give them a reason to.

Many working class people vote against their own best interests in the name of keeping gays in the closet, Christ in Christmas, forcing young pregnant women to become unprepared mothers, fighting islomofacism, and on and on. It's fear and belief in authoritarianism that keeps them in their ruts.

Not all working class people vote for the republics.

To combat the God Guns and Gays mantra.

This is why I learned to play music

This is why I work as little as possible no matter the job

This is why my greatest successes are my daughter, my relationship with my wife and my art

This is why I have no debt

This is why I slack

This is why I am a subgenius

The american dream is so dead and dusty. I do as little as possible to contribute to this 'economy'.

You are my hero. BTW, I also consider my wife and two daughters my greatest successes.

I'm a professional artist, and I consider a job well done to be a reward in itself. There are no great rewards to slacking, no spiritual benefit and no satisfaction.