please DU this poll .....

question: Should the Sioux City City Council begin its weekly meetings with a spoken prayer?


OPINION POLL (left hand side, towards the bottom.)

http://siouxcityjournal.com/


thank-you


p.s. If you want to check out the insane opinions on this local issue, here is the link:

http://siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2008/01/14/news/latest_news/7de41f3cecb25897862573d100122751.txt

believe me, if these people thought they could get away with it, they would be.

when Rixner said - "I don't think anyone should be put in the position of doing or not doing something."???

or Rochester who said - "A council member can abstain if he wants to."

or Hensley who stated - "We invite all of the different religious groups to take turns to address the council with a prayer. It's open to the Jewish community, the Muslim community, the Christian community. We try to get different people coming in."

Must have been Hoffman who opined - "I would support it, but it has to be done in accordance with the law."


Sounds to me like some "sane" adults debating this. They happen to be Christian . . . and believe in prayer. Not exactly sure what the "insane" part is.

by "insane" opinions, I meant the people that were commenting on the article written in the paper.


read further down for those comments ... there are a 132 so far

Yes - just read some of those. I agree with you - the comments are over-the-top. Not much room for discussion with many of those commenters - they just want to control the actions and thoughts of everyone - the model for reich-wing neocons.

Can an atheist get up there and say "There is no god, so let's all ask ourselves for the mental fortitude to stop worrying about giant invisible sky-men, leprechauns, gnomes, and unicorns"?

How about if a Rastafarian wants to get up and smoke a big joint?

Is there a Church, Synagogue, or Mosque shortage in this country I wasn't aware of, where the ONLY place available for religious expression is in government buildings on the taxpayers' dime?

It's the City Council, ferchrissakes- maybe they should worry about fixing the potholes, and do their praying on their day off. The ONLY reason I can see anyone pushing this, no matter how much they "believe in prayer", is as a big "fuck you" to the ACLU, the Establishment clause, and people who aren't religious.

not as you say as a big "fuck you to the ACLU, the Establishment clause, and people whoe aren't religious". I would guess "tradition" of the council plays a role.

It also seems to me that the commission is relatively sane and adult in their decision making. Hence, should one of the the other groups that you are concerned about approaches them in a similar manner, then I would guess they would consider the request within the bounds of the law and of the constitution.

Seems to me you are as extreme as the writers of the comments following the article - just on the opposite side. They are "demanding" the prayers in a Christian context. You seem to be "demanding" no prayers.

Isn't there a middle ground where individual rights are not violated - everyone's individual rights?

As in- "well, creationists are demanding that their viewpoint be taught in public school science classes, and so are 'evolutionists'- so why not compromise and teach 'both'?"

Because there is no 'both'. It doesn't work that way, any more than it's logical to say "Michael Moore is the same to the left as Ann Coulter is to the right". Michael Moore doesn't advocate beating conservatives with baseball bats. Creationism and evolution aren't on equivalent evidentiary footing (to put it mildly). Beyond that, proponents of evolution aren't demanding that Darwin be taught in churches and sunday schools.

And that's the rub- "individual rights"? No one's individual right to religious observance is being infringed upon- only the "right" to use government time and space to that end. To argue that anyone's "individual right" to observe is being oppressed because they can't stick a creche or a 10 commandments monument in front of the courthouse or at city hall is absurd. Again, is there a church/synagogue/mosque shortage? When people are prevented from worshipping and enjoying organized prayer at HOME or IN THEIR HOUSES OF WORSHIP- and not in public school classes or government buildings on the taxpayers' dime- then I will buy this blather about how religious expression is somehow 'oppressed' in this country.

Until then, it's no different than saying that allowing gay people to marry or women to use the birth control is 'religious discrimination' against the folks whose religion tells them they need to keep other people from having gay weddings or contraception.

...Get it?

Since it's "Sioux City", maybe they should open with a traditional Lakota prayer?