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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:03 PM
Original message
Why the Soviet Union really collapsed - long as this is a topic
The Soviet Union's ultimate doom was revealed overnight in August 1961 - when they had to put up a wall in Berlin to keep people from leaving the East Bloc in droves.

The imposition of Stalinism on so many unwilling nations by force of a Red Army occupation (in 1939 on the Baltics and in 1945 on the six satellite nations of Eastern Europe) guaranteed that the Soviet empire would one day prove unsustainable against national centripetal forces.

The future failure became obvious with the Wall. Reform was impossible because allowing freedoms of assembly and travel would quickly lead to collapse -- as became the case soon after such freedoms were allowed in the 1980s.

National resistance to political tyranny was as or more important in the Soviet collapse as the oft-cited economic stagnation of the highly centralized state socialist model.

The Cold War if anything may have served to sustain the Soviet model by providing an outside enemy and keeping power with the hardliners, whose use of force was thus legitimated.

The Western policy that most served to undermine the Soviets was the Ostpolitik adopted by West Germany in the 1970s under Brandt - the opening for detente. Once you had cultural exchanges and eight million West Germans visiting East Germany every year, it was guaranteed that East Germans would one day openly revolt in favor of the West German way of life. (How many Americans even know what Ostpolitik was?)

The Carter-Reagan* war build-up was superfluous to this process, if anything may have delayed it. Afghanistan had at most a peripheral impact in draining resources and ruining the myth of Soviet military might.

Look at the actual history of how it went down: the peoples of Eastern Europe fought for decades to gain the first foothold. Their efforts at national self-determination were put down over and over by declarations of martial law or, failing that, by the military force of the Red Army: 1948 in Czechoslovakia, 1953 in Germany, 1956 in Hungary, 1968 in Czechoslovakia, 1970 and 1980 in Poland.

In the late 1980s, as soon as it became clear that deviations from the Soviet system would no longer be put down by force, the system fell apart. Once Poland was allowed a democratically elected government in 1989, once Hungary opened up the border that summer, the revolutions that followed by the end of the year in the GDR, Czechoslovakia and Romania and the regime change in Bulgaria became inevitable. The only other option would have been another military intervention in Hungary as soon as the border was opened. In the end, the hardliners were right - Gorbachev's reforms did lead to the system's demise.

Logically, the declaration of independence by the three Baltic states (also late additions to the Stalinist empire) followed soon after. Here again, the only option would have been massive force.

Once the empire fell, the Soviet Union itself might have been saved except for the actions of the hardliners in staging the anti-Gorbachev coup of 1991. Gorbachev was restored after the popular uprising, but broken altogether, and the final powerlessness of the Moscow government was revealed for all to see. This cleared the way for Yeltsin's seizure of power in Russia and the devolution into the 15 constituent Republics in January 1992.


--

* - Hey, let's give credit where it is due: do not forget the MX missile, the "Carter Doctrine," the "Rapid Reaction Force," the U.S. intervention in Afghanistan (prior to the Soviet invasion) and the huge military buildup were all initiated during the last two years of the Carter administration.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. I believe Pope John Paul II deserves a little credit as well
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. For what?
Diverting the Polish nationalism that was there anyway into the Catholic revanchism that ultimately produced the K-Twins?
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. The Pope and Lech Walesa
The Pope and Lech Walesa were, in my opinion, the two greatest catalysts for tearing down the old system...
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. He certainly does. He helped to politically delegitimize the Soviet empire. nt
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. ME!
I'd never heard of Ostpolitik!!! :hi:

But that makes since-I have always heard to referred to as "bluejeans and rock'n'roll" which is to say the Americanization of the policy.

I read a great piece a few years ago about how when Stalin died they all basically stood around the room looking at each other no one wanting to say what everyone knew. The guy screaming and yelling and taking his shoe off in public should have told people that they didn't have much to back them up, it was all bluster. But then there were plenty of people in we$t who were more than willing to let it continue.

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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. The USSR was rotten to the core when the reform process started.
It was a closed society, a bullshit-ocracy where nobody had good information to know what was going on except the KBG. The need for reforms started with the KGB (under Andropov I believe) and Gorbechev brought them to fruition. The reforms didn't bring things down, but they brought to the surface the necrotic reality that had been hiding for so long. Now its cleaned up, and Russia's strength is growing.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bush & Saudis colluded to pump more oil and harm the Soviet oil export industry
Once the price of oil fell out, the Soviets lost the ability to buy goods from other countries and their economy fell in on itself. I cannot help but think the loss of the nuclear plants after Chernobyl had something to do with it to. They shut down a dozen or so nuke plants of the Chernobyl design to assuage the Western Europeans.

Rambo politics gets no credit in my book. There is this RW illusion about "outspending" them in an arms race that I don't agree with. It had hardly the effect of the oil collusion I described.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. True... Very good point!
And this came after the Soviets had become dependent on a supply of cheap American wheat (probably their dumbest move, to accept such an expedient and lose food sovereignty). So with the late 1980s decline of the oil industry (funny to remember), suddenly the Soviets can't acquire the dollars they need (even though the dollar dropped along with the oil price).
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Red China opened the door with "ping pong diplomacy" to gain ammonia-fertilzer technology from US
Before that, Maoist China was really a closed economic system. However, as their fields played out and the population increased, they realized that the reds needed their own "green revolution" to increase agricultural yields.

So, opening China was China's diplomatic accomplishment, not Nixon's.

"Red" China. I cannot believe I am typing this.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Also true...
I love the U.S. perception was that Nixon "played the China card."

What was ignored is that the Soviet-Chinese alliance had ended in 1959! It had only lasted 10 years past the end of the Chinese civil war, and the two powers spent the next 10 in a low-intensity border war. But straight until the 1970s the Western propaganda was filled with nonsense about monolithic Communism. Really, until the day Deng took China into the neoliberal project.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Gee, nothing in there that Reagan did the job!!
Edited on Fri Jan-18-08 04:20 PM by rodeodance
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yeah, right on the money.
Jonathan Schell talks about this in "The Unconquerable World".
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XboxWarrior Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. It was all.....
...Big Ronny.

He gave them a roundhouse kick, ala Chuck Norris.

Least that's what all the R-Wingers would like me

to believe.

NOT
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Raygun was an empty suit, a puppet. nt
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. They spent too much for defense. Kinda like us. Just sayin. nm
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Romans, Russians, now US n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Did they have to do that? Suckers. n/t
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I hope you were looking into the mirror when you said that. nm
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Can you explain what you mean by that?
If it's to say that the U.S. is also driving itself to the brink with military and war spending - has already gone over the cliff, in fact - we are certainly in agreement. (But if it has something to do with me in particular, I don't get it.)
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. You have it right. I knew when I wrote that, that it might be misunderstood. But you got in right on
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Elspeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Soviet Union was economic toast by the 1970s. The CIA knew this
Watch "The Power of Nightmares"

http://novakeo.com/?p=131
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. WHAT. You mean the Vietnam war wasn't really necessary? OMG. nm
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-19-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
23. kick
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