If it's Clinton v McCain

and I think it's shaping up that way, we have a fight on our hands. There is no question in my mind that this would be a very tough race for Clinton- the worst possible match up. And there's no question in my mind that John McCain would be a disaster for this country, and that even with a dem Congress he'd manage to push through very damaging legislation.

There are a lot of things I don't care for about Hillary Clinton and I really don't think moving back in time to the nineties with much the same cast of characters is the best thing for this country, BUT it's incalculably better than John McCain. I don't know if Bloomberg will jump in or not, but regardless, I'll be working and voting for Clinton.

I hope that most people here and most dems everywhere will coalesce behind Clinton if she's the nominee. There are times when certain Clinton supporters here piss me off to the nth degreee. There are times when Bill Clinton's antics turn me off. There are times when the Clinton campaign does things that really give me pause, but I can't conceive of simply standing back and watching the repukes hold the White House.

I hope mine is a majority position.

...this country is finished, plain and simple. I'm not under any illusion that any of the Dem front runners would usher in an age of Aquarius, but any of them is infinitely preferable to the most watered-down Repug. And McCain is no watered-down Repug; he's a koolader of the first rank.

...Congressional majority were all figments of my imagination?

he's the Dole candidate - the old, respected guy who "deserves" the nomination.

McCain is old, cranky, prone to gaffes. Clinton would beat him like her husband beat Dole.

She does poorly in head to head against him. Here's the thing: He's going to be able to rally the repuke party, and she'll do her share in that too. She may be able to rally the dems, but she's got a real problem rallying the indies she needs to win, and there's also the possibility that she won't have the needed numbers of African Americans behind her. McCain is not Dole. He's much more adept at the game. He has a better image in the country than she does. And frankly, to a whole lot of people he's still the likable straight talker. He'll be a tough opponent and it's a bad idea to minimize the challenge he confronts us with.

and I don't think McCain is more adept than Dole. Not by any stretch.

And it was conservatives who voted for him in SC. The conservatives will come together behind McCain, just as most of the left will come together behind Clinton. And Clinton is absolutely a HUGE motivator for the Clintons to come out and vote. Is McCain as hated on the dem side? I don't think so. Her negatives are the ones that are really high.

Republican votes don't matter. We do not need them. 13 million independents are all we need. And I'm sure that many of them are women. The Republicans need 30 million independents and they don't have them.

But keep dreaming your little dream of winning by making people afraid. Just like George!

Wonderful that you're able to speak for them. Like the Culinary Union leaders spoke for their membership.

How galling is it to so-called "progressives" that it's the WORKING PEOPLE who vote for Hillary Clinton. Yes, I can well imagine them hating that. Kinda steals their thunder. They chose the anointed candidate...and all those foolish workers are ignoring them.

McCain is the likely Republican nominee, but the Republicans hate him. Hillary is the likely Democratic nominee, but the Democrats hate her too. Of course the R's hate Hillary as well, and from the OP I see that many Dems hate McCain.

With both sides hating their own nominee and the other side's, this will be one strange, hate-filled race!

Hate is killing each other. We're just getting heated on a discussion board. NO threats have been made and though I think we could all (including me) do better, this is a tough Primary season and we're all passionate about who gets the nod. I know I can namecall one person in a thread about a candidate, then agree with the same person about another subject.
I don't call this "hate" by a long shot and I'm sure we'll get together around the Dem nominee.

I agree, though, that the word is a bit intense for the context (although the wingnuts really do seem to "hate" Hillary). I used it mostly because others in this thread did. Perhaps we can come up with an alternative word?

Hehe...oooookay.

Who do you think the conservatives hate more...Hillary, or McCain? Because that's the real question here. While I disagree that conservatives hate McCain (and I think South Carolina will back me up here), it doesn't really matter, because they hate Hillary more.

The Republicans have nothing right now. If Mitt or John get the nomination, that will drive the conservatives absolutely nuts. Why? Because all the top contenders right now are very liberal Republicans. If you read the buzz on some of the righty boards, many voters are threatening to stay home if McCain or Romney get the nomination.

If that feeling prevails our candidate, regardless of who it is, is a shoe in... assuming the GOP doesn't steal another election through their tried and true practice of vote fraud.

The nation doesn't. But nice try.

Maybe you can work for his campaign.

verses the flip-flopper who says whatever the polls tell her to say. We won't even have an advantage on the Iraq war issue since she voted for it. Its a guaranteed loss.

and Bob Dole was the distinguished war vet up against the amoral and too-slick Bill Clinton. Bill cleaned his clock.

Is this what we're left with if Hillary is the nominee? Hoping the Republican candidate is as bad as Bob Dole? Heaven help us.

I'm explaining things as I see it. I honestly believe Clinton would beat McCain handily.

McCain will draw most of the independents. They still basically like the guy, just look at the polls. His biggest problem, his lack of support from a demoralized conservative base, is instantly solved by Hillary's ultra-polarizing presence. The right wing will climb over each other like rats escaping from a burning building in order to vote against her. She, on the other hand, brings nothing to the table except the Democratic establishment. She'll win the Democratic strongholds in the coastal states, she'll lock up traditional Democratic blocks like unions and various minority communities, and she'll obviously get all the older white women who have decided to vote their gender. But she won't attract new voters: younger voters aren't motivated by her and most independents plain don't like her. People who are tired of dynasties (and there are a lot of them) will vote against her on principle. And quite a few African-Americans might end up staying home this November because of her decision to turn the primaries into a race vs. gender war.

If Hillary gets the nom, the only thing we can do is pray for Huckabee.

If it's Hillary vs McCain then the odds favour McCain, but far from insurmountably. There are months till the election, and a lot can change in that time.

I'm certainly hoping for Huckabee, though.

How do any of the "odds" favor McCain?

I think that the odds of the indepentents going to McCain over Hillary by more than 70% are fairly good, especially when you factor in that in that matchup Democratic turnout would be low and Republican & Repub-leaning indep turnout very high indeed.

But I think if Hillary does manage to win, it's gonna be by a slim margin. Plus, her name at the top of the ticket is not going to be helpful to some of the congressional Dems running in purple states.

They've been rallying just fine to Hillary. They have NOT been showing up for Republican events however.

And your contempt for "older white women" is noted. Just what one would expect of an Obama supporter. And one more reason to vote for a woman. The idea of 4 more years of that oleaginous disrespect is nauseating.

So. Will the young come out for Obama if he's NOT a rock star? NOT a messiah? Just an average Illinois pol with average Illinois corruption? Who isn't above starting a race war for a few votes? Of course they will. Right?

Come on, darling. Insult more women. We vote.

He is surging because the lie that the Surge is working has been promoted by the RWing & it's Corp Media. He is seen as being correct about Iraq & people now have been led to believe that Iraq can be a success for America, after all. If Iraq gets worse after the Surge has waned a few months before the Election McLame will lose.

Are you really that naive? Look at the breakdowns from previous elections. In 2004, something like 120 million people voted, 25% of whom were independents. That means only 60%-70% of voters registered with either party actually voted. Equal numbers of Dems and Republicans voted, which of course means that there were far more Dems staying home on election day than there were Republicans. Want something else to chew on? Consider the fact that there were twice as many Democrats who voted for Bush as there were Republicans who voted for Kerry.

So what's the moral? Voting turnout is a little bit more complicated than the grade-school approach of adding up all the registered voters in the country.

Oh, and thanks for throwing in your usual accusation of sexism. I consider it a complement, coming from one of the more egregious race-baiters on DU.

This is precisely why she won New Hampshire, and Nevada. Close to 50% of the eligible voting population does NOT exercise their right to vote.

Her ground campaign has been tireless in reaching out to those who for the most part have been non-participants (old & young) in previous elections. Barring any election rigging (as in 2000, 2004) she will defeat who ever is the republican candidate including but especially John McCain. The youth nor the women voters are going to line up behind McCain -- and it is the youth and the women who will be the deciders in the next election.

The media has already crafted this guy as Mr. Moderate for decades while Clinton has been marketed as some sort of far left crazy person. Neither label is correct of course, but people are kidding themselves if they think all of this will be fixed during an election season.

Mostly based on McCain's experience and maturity. He is a great contrast to bush*.

McCain will "own" the veterans/American-Legion issue

McCain can take away the global warming issue from Hillary and turn it into energy independence.

don't kid yourself by thinking she isn't.

a cause that will eventually be more hurt by the puke win. This reminds me of the McGovern campaign that made everyone feel good until the votes were counted in November. Would Bloomberg help us if McCain runs?

:eyes:

recalling his friendship with Feingold over campaign reform . He'll want us to forget his Bush hug and Neocon sympathies. You could probe McCain's mind, he's likely a big a militarist as Bush. / Still, Hillary's speech before the Isreal lobby. Are we sure she'd rid us of all Neocon notions. / But the Supreme Court and finances of the USA. We have no choice. Of course we will coelese about Hillary. Just not sure how hard I could force myself to vote for her. / I fear. Get White Males in the Voting booth. They will be a prejudiced against the First Woman president as they would be the First Black president. I predict it will be a real fight. My fear, I'd hazard to say McCain will win. And another GOP victory will assure a bankrupted America.

shrub. It says it all.

Her senate seat in 2000 was won by linking Lazio to Bush - she ran against Bush.

Plaster it wherever there's a wall. Paste it on every internet site
that has anything remotely to do with politics. Put it in everyone's
face to the point where McCain supporters are forced to spend all their
time trying to re-tell their line why their man is so much different
from Bush, rather than let them try to pull this "straight talk" crap
that they think is their most effective sound byte. Just toss it in their
faces again and again and again and again:

caption: "Do you really want a third term for George Bush?"

Great menu. "Sucks Bad" vs "Sucks Even More".

Let's hope it's Obama, because I seriously don't think HRC will turn one red state if McCain is her opponent.

Barack HUSSEIN Obama will turn a red state - please - if McCain get the nomination - add in Clinton and Obama swiftboating - voter suppression - questionable voting machine and we have four more years of a repunk in the White House

Do you know that in NH many repunks voted for McCain who are against us staying in Iraq - AFTER McCain said we will be there for 100 years - most voters don't know what the hell they're even voting for.

I'm not even sure Edwards beats McCain - but he has a way better chance than either Clinton or Obama...

I donated $50 to his campaign.

And Edwards in recent polling (on this site many times) beats ALL Repubs head to head including McCain. The two other candidates cannot brag about that luxury.

Unfortunately, American Democrats are once again going to eat idiot sandwiches, just like they did with Mondale and Dukakis, and nominate a polarizing easy-to-Swiftboat candidate that fills us with uncertainty and proselytizes vague positions on important issues such as the Middle East, Health Care, the general economy and labor/trade. Without strong, clear and most importantly DEMOCRATIC stands, people once again will have no reason to vote for our side.

Unfortunately, as the media and caucases show, this is indeed turning into a two-person race, I'm incredibly sorry to say. I'm hoping the South latches onto his message and goes against the M$M status quo. I really do.

I just feel Obama has a better chance than Hillary does. People are sick of the Clintons, and if she's the nominee, all of the southern and Red state Republicans are going to mobilize like no other for the sole purpose of keeping her out of the White House. AS PLANNED. With Obama, they'll be driven to indifference at worst.

It's just like it was stated in another post. The only way in which Americans like change is the sound of the word.

unfortunately I don't think either Obama or Clinton have much of a chance especially against McCain...

and btw love the expression eat idiot sandwiches - almost as good as STUCK ON STUPID...

and with all that said I SO HOPE that I have to write an oh my God I was SO WRONG about electability thread in November - I will SO GLADLY DO THAT - but unfortunately my heart and mind tells me either Clinton or Obama have MAJOR electablility issues....and I SO HOPE I AM 100% WRONG...

because Democrats won't fight against the bad ideas if they come from their own party, which is what happened under Bill. Remember, it was Bill who gave us NAFTA, WTO, media consolidation and welfare reform.

Some perspective you have!

Will she be much different as President?

I worry about a McCain/Huckabee ticket. That's the only way they can depend on the Religious Right to turn out in numbers.

Worry instead about a McCain/Lindsey Graham ticket, or something like that.

If Hillary is the Democratic nominee, she'll need someone like Wes Clark for
balance, although a younger, fresher face might make for better TV ads, as
nauseating as it is to have to consider that. If she's really daring, she'll
ask Kansas Governor Sibelius, but that is just dreaming on my part. Sibelius
would be a fabulous addition to the ticket, but two women would probably be
too much to ask of the country, never mind that Kathleen Sibelius would bring
candlepower to the ticket rivaled in recent history only by Al Gore (although
Fritz Mondale was right up there). For that matter, Sibelius would probably
make a better and more acceptable presidential nominee, but she hasn't shown
any interest (probably too busy doing her job, novel concept though that may
be for a politician).

several callers to Thom Hartmann called in I think from Michigan and said the two were joined at the hip - LIEberman was everywhere McCain was....

That would be great for the country club republicans, but would not motivate the religious right.

the thought of it makes me want to PUKE....

...she is not a Republican. That -- in itself -- should unite and motivate us all.

I think McCain is a hothead who will implode rather rapidly. He's not going to be able to get away from his love and support of Bush, no matter what the MSM thinks. I honestly don't think McCain has the energy for a tough campaign, and he has a really nasty side that isn't pretty, and it will surely show its face when he is questioned and challenged. And McCain just can't run on his Vietnam years as a POW. The Rethugs pretty well cut him off at the knees on that one, after what they did to Kerry and Cleland, and those wonderful pics of McCain - Mr. Straight Talk - hugging Bush will be thrown in his face at every turn. The MSM might think they can foist McCain on the public the same way they did with Bush in 2000, but the power of the Net wasn't the way it is now, and we'll put out the truth about the SOB any chance we can get. I have a feeling McCain will make a major gaffe when he is confronted on some of his past actions in the Senate, like the savings and loan scandal and his support for a hundred year war in Iraq. He has so firmly lashed himself to the mast of Republican economics and policy that he won't be able to escape his support of every one of Bush's disasters. So let the SOB run for Prez (and since he can laugh with someone calling Hillary a bitch, then I can call him a son of a bitch). I can't wait to watch him get older by the second and trying to say he doesn't have to defend his past positions because he was once a POW. Yeah, John. We already know. Tell us something that's going to help the country.
I believe it will be quite fun watching his head explode. And I don't care how much he suffered during the Vietnam War, since he supports the suffering and death of US forces in his glorious war of freedom in Iraq. Fuck that hypocrite John McCain, and pass the popcorn.

Mittens will be the Repig candidate.

Don

I think on John Elliot's show... polls show McCain beats Clinton or Obama. The only candidate that beat all republicans was Edwards. I think Clinton and Obama beat everyone else (but don't quote me on it).

I don't think much of polls when they are this far out but it is scary.

mismanagement under grandpa McCain, who will be mostly asleep at the wheel. I don't believe neither Obama nor Clinton can beat McCain. We need Edwards, who can beat McCain.

Isn't the majority of the country fed up to it's eye teeth of the war? Isn't John McCain all gung ho FOR the war??? How would that make him the nominee? I've also felt Romney and his endless war chest would sneak in, but hey that's just me.

I'm not trying to argue, would just like to hear some opinions is all.

in fact, I like just about Dem against him. I think he's a weak candidate. I also don't think he'll ultimately win the nomination. The party bosses will cut him loose soon. He'll get Dean'ed.

fo'sure...

I'll vote against the drug war...